period socks?

[devildog]

Was wondering if anyone could recomend a good place to purchase some period socks to go with me new brogans, thanks.

[cal 100]

http://www.provisionalsupply.com/Main.htm

Check out the vendor above, just got some from them and they were awesome comfortable.

[GaWildcat]

You may also try Mickey Black

http://www.salisburyemporium.com/mickeyblacksocks.htm

[bob 125th nysvi]

Was wondering if anyone could recomend a good place to purchase some period socks to go with me new brogans, thanks.

I ask the question because many times you can find quailty hand made 100% wool socks at a local antique or 'primative' store at a fairly reasonable price.

They work fine for Union impressions.

We also have a woman in our outfit (the Chaplian's Wife) who hands knits socks from local wool culled directly on the farm. A little more expensive but worth it!

Cotton your on your own, we don't hand make those up here in Yankee territory although if your in the south the local antique/craft/primative store may still be the route to go. Seen some pretty nice socks in those stores.

[EmmanuelDabney]

Is that those people are not knitting from documented 1850s-60s socks. If you can find someone who can knit and has a decent knowledge of it then great. I would like to turn you to the AGSAS sock pattern recently updated.

Karin Timour has recently finished her work to a 1865 US Sanitary Commission sock with notes for the novice and the expert knitter. She has conducted research at a variety of institutions. If you need socks, she's the woman.

The pattern: http://www.agsas.org/howto/patterns/knitting_sock.shtml

Remember: Recreating the past involves recreating the actual surviving evidence not just the activity that lead to the finished good.

[reddcorp]

Terre Lawson aka "Spinster" offers some fine handknitten woolen socks...check www.skilletlicker.com

Also, a bit more economical are the 100 % wool socks from Evergreen Acres Farm www.evergreenacresfarm.com. I think that they have ceased credit card ordering, but the web page has their e-mail and phoneand I believe you can still order their socks and knit goods. I have several pair of their socks which have proven quite servicable.

Andy Redd

[John Legg]

http://wwandcompany.com/socks.html

Dan and Brian have some period Cotton socks(found in EoG) and a new type : period Machine woven wool socks.

Check em out

Cheers,

John

[VaTrooper]

For the money Carter and Jasper is hard to beat.


http://www.carterandjasper.com/footwear.htm

[hconverse]

Also, a bit more economical are the 100 % wool socks from Evergreen Acres Farm www.evergreenacresfarm.com. I think that they have ceased credit card ordering, but the web page has their e-mail and phoneand I believe you can still order their socks and knit goods. I have several pair of their socks which have proven quite servicable.

Andy Redd

Andy, I'm afraid that unless something has changed since last September, Evergreen Acres is no longer in the sock business. I learned from them that the mill that knitted their socks is no longer in business so they were selling the last pairs of plain wool socks at an event last fall. I too bought many a pair from them and am sad to see that resource gone.

Scott Sonntag

[KarinTimour]

Dear Emmanuel:

Thank you for your kind words about my socks. For those of you who are interested, I knit socks from museum originals or directions printed before April, 1865. I'im currently making 13 different Confederate socks, 6 Federal socks (including Federal Issue stockings) and 10 civilian socks. For military reenactors I also knit hats, balaclavas, mittens, mitts, wristers, gloves, and scarves. Feel free to drop me an email for a copy of my current price list.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Warm. Durable. Documented.
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[bob 125th nysvi]

Is that those people are not knitting from documented 1850s-60s socks. If you can find someone who can knit and has a decent knowledge of it then great. I would like to turn you to the AGSAS sock pattern recently updated.

on the craftsperson involved.

I would also like to point out that socks were hand-knitted in the home numbering in the millions by all kinds of people.

There would be no one "correct" pattern. There would be a general pattern that had thousands of variations to it based on the abilities of the individual knitter and the quality of the material available.

Even mass produced socks would not have the uniformity we see today.

There would of course be techniques that were totally inappropriate (because they hadn't been invented yet) and types of wool that was unavailable (the breed hadn't been invented or introduced to America yet).

But one 'pattern'?

Nope.

[terry sorchy]

Bob,
You read it wrong. Emmanuel did'nt say there was only one pattern he was suggesting one type of pattern that AGSAS has and is from a documented original. My girlfriend knits fantastic socks from patterns that were documented to the mid to early 1860's. Most did not differentiate that much though. Just like with fashions of the period.
Terry Sorchy

[Birddog]

I noticed today that W W & Company have machine knitted socks, done on a 19th century sock knitting machine. Might want to check them out:

http://www.wwandcompany.com/socks.html

[terry sorchy]

Yes they do. A pard of mine here in Wisconsin makes them. They are very fine socks, and made on an original machine to boot.
Terry Sorchy

[bob 125th nysvi]

Bob,
You read it wrong. Emmanuel did'nt say there was only one pattern he was suggesting one type of pattern that AGSAS has and is from a documented original.Terry Sorchy

then my apologies

[jademonkey]

Also, in addition to the wonderful vendors already mentioned - Ben Tart has period-machine knit socks.

www.bentart.com

[KarinTimour]

Dear Mr. Sandusky:

In light of your last few posts on this topic, I thought it might be wise to clarify some points:

1. With regard to the AGSAS pattern, as Mr. Sorchy has helpfully pointed out, no one is saying that this is the only way to make socks. However, it is one documented pattern, and by making it, someone can learn a bit about period sock knitting. The Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society, actively encourages and teaches knitting among civilian reeanctors. Quite a few of us are passionate sock knitters. We have patterns and encouragement on our website to recruit more people to the knitting ranks. For years "The AGSAS Sock Pattern" has been the tutorial that encouraged scores of beginning sock knitters. Research in knitting, as in so many aspects of material culture, has advanced, and I was asked to update and expand the information our site with regard to a documented "translation" of a 19th century pattern into modern knitting terms. As Emmanuel notes, this is written so that any modern knitter, whether reenactor or not, can produce a pair of correctly made socks.

At no point have we said that this is the one right way to make socks for our time period.

Indeed, there are characteristics of different ethnic knitters which can be seen in some socks, and there are a number of different construction techniques that are period correct.

2. Cotton? Wool?
Socks were made of cotton, linen, silk and wool, as well as blends of these fibers. With regard to socks purchase by the Federal Quartermaster and issued to soldiers, Mr. Sandusky is correct. I've researched contracts, solicitation ads from the QMD, and read the specifications, and I find no evidence that Federal soldiers were issued cotton socks. I'd be very interested in any documentation that they were. As far as I've currently been able to find, if you were marching in Union blue, and you were wearing the socks that Uncle Sam issued, you were marching in wool.

The Confederate Quartermasters preferred wool socks if they could get them, but the bulk of the domestic and imported wool was prioritized to uniforms and blankets. Cotton was in abundant supply and it was better to have some socks than none, so cotton was a more common material for Confederate socks. There were a number of Confederate sock factories, so we know that machine-made cotton socks would have been issued to at least some Confederate troops. Home handknitters were also combing small amounts of wool into their cotton, then spinning a mixed fiber sock that had at least some of the advantages of wool, while utilizing the patriotic Confederate cotton.

Northern hand knitters were also making socks from cotton, though wool is the predominate material mentioned. Reading United States Sanitary Commission and soldiers' aid society documents and advertisements acknowledging donations in Northern newspapers, it's clear that Northern knitters were sending both cotton and wool hand and machine knit socks to the troops.

3. Why were there so many variations on sock making?
Most people who learned to hand knit in our time period learned through the oral tradition. Their mother/grandmother/aunt/older sister taught them through example, and in-person instruction. In modern times many people learn through books, videos, on-line knitting sites. There are a few books about knitting which were printed before 1830, but those are extremely rare. My personal belief is that the market and demand for these books and patterns printed in magazines increased as literacy among women increased, the cost and technology of printing made cheaper books and magazines possible and as women began to have more leisure to do decorative needlework (as opposed to needlework needed for their family's survival). Over the years I've acquired many of these early knitting books, but few have lengthy descriptions of sock knitting. Probably because it was assumed that the majority of knitters were already well versed in it, and they wanted help turning their skills to creation of beautiful shawls, baby garments and household decorations (the number of different doilie patterns is amazing).

For many military reenactors, a "sock is a sock," and they see little variation between them. Personally, most of the differences between different guns, sack coats, trousers and brogans are lost on me. I've heard the words "Enfield," "Springfield," "Lorenze" (sic) and "Whitworth." If you ask me what type of a rifle someone was carrying, I'm likely to reply "Uhhhhh, a brown one?"

I happen to be fascinated with socks, so I see multiple variations in things like ribbing, length of leg, toe and heel construction, ply of yarn, weight of material, color, half-hose vs. socks, stitches per inch, markings (like initials or laundry marks), as well as stamps from the Sanitary Commission or government inspectors. etc.

4. Machine knit or hand knit?
One of the things I remember learning early on in reenacting was "they didn't have any mechanization, everything was hand made." Just as they had sewing machines in the 1860s, knitting had also been mechanised. It was still common to knit socks by hand, and it was common knowledge that hand-made socks would a) fit the warer better and b) be more durable. But socks, drawers, and undershirts were all being knit by machine during our period.

That being said, period machine-made socks will have important differences with the socks you can buy today in Walmart. To begin with, there were two radically different types of machines that were used to make socks in our period. The older machine-made socks were knit on what were known as "knitting frames" which were grew from extremely early attempts to mechanize knitting. First invented by William Lee in the time of Queen Elizabeth I, these could knit a flat sheet of material, which was then taken off the machine and sewn into a sock. You can recognize a sock that was made on a knitting frame because it will have a horizonal seam that runs the length of the foot. These seams were uncomfortable if you had tight fitting shoes or boots, and were prone to split open, especially if made by a cut-rate manufacturer.

One of the issues which held back mechanization of sock knitting was the way that machine needles worked. Until the 1840s, the yarn had to be manually pushed off each individual needle to form a stitch. With the invention of the latch-hook needle, a stitch was formed when yarn was pulled across it. In 1858 a machine was invented which (using the new latch-hook needle) could knit a continous tube of material. This made it possible for seamless sock feet, a big leap forward in comfort and durability. However, it wasn't until after the War that sock machines could make a heel and toe continously on the machine. Throughout the War, sock factories hired knitters on a piecework, home industry basis to hand-knit heels and toes into their machine-made socks. In the counties around sock factories, bales of socks would be dropped off at the homes of knitters without heels and toes, and then were picked up several days or a week later when completed.

But this was a cumbersome business, and the dream was that one day socks would be entirely manufactured on a machine, in one process. The earliest that I've been able to document this being successfully done is the 1870s. To accomplish this, the short-row heel and toe were invented, and these are the hallmarks of your modern store bought socks today.

Pull out a pair of Wal-mart socks and look at the heel and toe. Follow the stitches that make your sock as they flow down the ankle and toward the toe. If you look carefully at the heel you'll see a diagonal line of what looks almost like a seam that runs across the stitches from the point of the heel toward the top of your foot. In some socks this can be as short as an inch, in others it's as long as two inches. Now look at the toe. See the stitches running the length of your foot? At the end of your sock, the stitches tha formed the bottom of the sock form a little U-turn and join the stitches that form the top of the sock. Across the top of your toes they are sewn together with a seam. Both of these construction methods are post-war.

My two cents,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Warm. Durable. Documented.
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[hanktrent]

However, it wasn't until after the War that sock machines could make a heel and toe continously on the machine. Throughout the War, sock factories hired knitters on a piecework, home industry basis to hand-knit heels and toes into their machine-made socks.

I just want to post in support of what Karin has said. Unless things have changed in the last few years, the machine-knit socks available to reenactors are not made using period methods. I'd love to find a pair of socks constructed as she's described above, with machine tubes and hand-knit heels and toes, but right now it seems one has to choose totally hand-knit socks to get ones made from a period pattern.

A few years ago, I inquired of all the recommended machine-knit sock vendors if they made that style, or if they could document the sock pattern they did use to pre-1865, and the answer was consistently no. They were using the same basic pattern as the Walmart socks Karin describes.

Does anyone know of any machine-knit sock vendors who are offering socks from a documented period pattern?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[KarinTimour]

Dear Hank:

Since we last discussed this issue, I've acquired several period machines, and now produce machine-made socks with hand knit heels and toes.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Warm. Durable. Documented.
Atlantic Guard Soldiers Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[hanktrent]

Karin, that's great news! I've got a pair of socks that I'm thinking of retiring after this season, and I now know where I'll get a replacement. :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Memphis]

What a great display of the differences in reenacting philosphy. One camp has an item that is remotely like an original, and hopes that in the millions of socks knitted that their sock may have matched up with something period. The other camp sticks with known period patterns based on research, and assumes one day other patterns may be rediscovered and implemented at a later date. Never a division so clear. This has truly been an illuminating thread.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Bob will do just fine. Mr. is something I only am if I am in trouble or to my youngest neices and nephews friends.

Bob

[bob 125th nysvi]

What a great display of the differences in reenacting philosphy. One camp has an item that is remotely like an original, and hopes that in the millions of socks knitted that their sock may have matched up with something period. The other camp sticks with known period patterns based on research, and assumes one day other patterns may be rediscovered and implemented at a later date. Never a division so clear. This has truly been an illuminating thread.

as the exposure of a mind that will not consider possibilities.

[deletion - THP]

[tompritchett]

Moderator hat: Easy boys.

[Fauxban]

Hank,

If I'd known you were lookin', you coulda seen FOUR pair of machine knit, hand finished stockings, of the Federal issue variety, at Fort Pulaski.
We managed to smuggle 'em past the guards, and not a soul seemed to mind. Indeed we managed to keep our "contraband" all weekend, despite regulations and searches!! Even flaunting their uniformity by "drying" them on our bunk & the casemate bars didn't raise any eyebrows. My only answer was that our captors hadn't read the relevant chapter in CRRC 2Ed...

I will cheerfully testify to the fit, comfort, economy and utility of Karin's stockings. I'm quite looking forward to giving them an extended "road test" at Shiloh in a coupla weeks. Pacing the wood & brick floors as a prisoner seems to me to be "light duty" for socks, but chasin' horses & ridin' limbers will proof the product perfectly.

[Wolfgang]

Osgood Historical Reproductions
http://osgoodreproductions.com/knitted.htm

[cookiemom]

Has anyone come across any evidence of, or references to, hand-knitted socks of the period being made from wool which retains its natural lanolin?

The fleece used for most mill-spun wool yarn has been thoroughly washed to remove the lanolin, but home-spun yarn (now or then) might not be as completely cleaned. Theoretically, the lanolin would help keep the shoe/boot leather soft and flexible, but I wonder whether it would also make the inside of the boot sticky or slippery.

They would have had it, but would they have used it?

[Poor Private]

I have 2 pair of wool socks that have a personal history. My wife raises hair goats and sheep. She hand sheared a pair of sheep then hand cleaned the wool, carded it and batted it . The mother of our unit cammander then took over from there. Shes spun it the knitted the wool into 2 pair of socks for me. So now when people ask what socks I am wearing I can say today it is Franky, tommorow they will be Cody. The wool is natural colored, and since the sheep were different colored I can tell who was who.