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bizzilizzit
02-24-2007, 07:35 PM
If Virigina is sorry for slavery, why haven't the other Southern and original 13 states done the same? What about indentured servants? Immigrants? Poor folk? This our our past, our history, as US citizens. It includes the good, the bad, and the ugly. Let's not focus on the mistakes of our ancestors and continue apologizing for the rest of eternity. I think most of us recogonize our nation's error, exprested regret, and are trying to move forward. Let's focus on what WE can do now for America's future.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/24/slavery.apology.ap/index.html

Elizabeth

bill watson
02-24-2007, 07:50 PM
The alternative, one supposes, is to NOT be sorry for slavery?

Sgt_Pepper
02-24-2007, 08:39 PM
The alternative, one supposes, is to NOT be sorry for slavery?

It isn't as simple as "sorry" or "not sorry".

toptimlrd
02-24-2007, 09:03 PM
Thank you Sgt. Pepper. I am so tired of the poor me attitude of everyone. If we nned to apologize for slavery then I want an apology for the way my Irish ancestors were treated (more recently I might add) when they arived in the country,we should apologize to my Cherokee ancestors for removing them from their homeland, we should apologize to all the women for not giving them the vote, how about the Salem Witch trials, perhaps the Egyptians should apologize for holding the Jewish in bondage for all those years before Christ, where does it end. I think everyone is willing to say it was wrong but to ask for a formal apology for something nobody alive is guilty of or experienced is utterly ridiculous.

reddcorp
02-24-2007, 10:51 PM
What utter rubbish. A perfectly meaningless gesture by a bunch of touchy-feely liberals to rid themselves of their white angst and imaginary guilt.

A.W.Redd

reb64
02-25-2007, 12:13 AM
If Virigina is sorry for slavery, why haven't the other Southern and original 13 states done the same? What about indentured servants? Immigrants? Poor folk? This our our past, our history, as US citizens. It includes the good, the bad, and the ugly. Let's not focus on the mistakes of our ancestors and continue apologizing for the rest of eternity. I think most of us recogonize our nation's error, exprested regret, and are trying to move forward. Let's focus on what WE can do now for America's future.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/24/slavery.apology.ap/index.html

Elizabeth

these lib democrats said they regret slavery, not sorry for it . like saying if I had only known I had picked my own cotton kinds of statement.

Ohioreb1861
02-25-2007, 12:36 AM
I have had a question that has plagued me for many years. Why don't we have a Native American month? A Irish month, or a German month? I think other cultures need to be recognized

hanktrent
02-25-2007, 12:42 AM
I love the picture with the article. Buncha rich old white guys in a room, congratulating themselves on not being racists. Looks like a meeting of the Massachusetts colonization society. :p

Okay, I'm sure that African-Americans are equally proportionately represented in the legislature (no idea on the actual statistics), but the angle that the picture was taken misses them.

By the way, I think it was a good idea to do, for the reason that Bill Watson suggests. It doesn't cost anything but a little time, and acknowledges that maybe not every early settler of Virginia landed on the shores like my ancestors, happy to clear trees, kill Indians and civilize the land into a great nation. Okay, it does kinda minimize the genocide issue, with a minor addition of, "Hey, we're sorry to you Native Americans too," but it's hard to be totally inoffensive to everyone.

And I think African Americans have a right to be reassured more than just once or twice that yes, we really really mean it now when we say that what people used to do was wrong. Lord knows they were told for enough generations that it was right.

But the deeper implications are subtle, yet so much more. Who's regretting? Who's apologizing? Are modern African-Americans apologizing to their own ancestors for enslaving them, since the government today represents all citizens equally?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Army30th
02-25-2007, 03:12 AM
It's most likely a ploy to get more votes.

How asinine can this country get? Apologize for something that took place over 140 years ago? Next thing you know, America will be apologizing for capturing Saddam Hussein, ridding the world of Hitler, and killing the British for it's independence.

Expressing regret for something that your country did, that you personally did not have a hand in or control over, is a nice gesture. Sponsoring a resolution to express that regret is a waste of thought and ink. It serves no purpose and does not change the fact that slavery happened, and probably to some extent, still does. It's crazy to have to apologize for every mistake that our forefathers made in this world.

Am I sorry that the indians were forced off their tribal lands by the whiteman? sure. Am I sorry the "African-Americans" were forced into bondage by men no better than themselves? sure. Am I sorry that Japan was bombed in WW2? sure.

I am collectively sorry. Am I personally sorry? no

Flame away.

VA Soldier
02-25-2007, 08:03 AM
As has been stated several times on this thread most people see now that slavery was wrong.
My ancestors were scotch-irish, welsh, and cherokee, at least the ones i know about, none of them owned slaves period. Chances are, at least the ones who where living in VA and fought in the war were living in poorer conditions than many slaves.
This is nothing more than an attempt to roll over to such groups as the NAACP and give in. Even the one man who stood up and challenged this bill openly voted for it.
I am tired of all the giving in...Virginia has lost its state song (because the black man that wrote it used the phrase darkey), had monuments challanged, had the pledge to the VA flag challenged (because its writer was a member of the UDC in 1942 when she wrote it), Heaven help us if they ever figure out that the Virginia flag did not become blue until late April/May of 1861.
As for the cost and being just a little time...this resolution was preposed at the beginning of the general assembly session and just came to a vote at the end, so while the legislators were debating this issue, they could have been working on real issues in Virginia, not some aesthetic apology over something that no one alive had a part in.
I do not owe the blacks anything, I have nothing to apologize for, and I am tired of our government bending over just because they are afraid of upsetting some p/c norm or offending some black person. They find it alright to trample my heritage in the name of equality, well when one person or group has to suffer at the hands of another group that is not equality.

VA Soldier
D. A. Jackson

GaWildcat
02-25-2007, 08:23 AM
Feel the need to apologize all the time??? I mean, should one listen to the Radio or TV news, someone does something that causes a stir, immediatly apologizes, and then enters rehab! Heck, If the Brooks/Sumner affair had taken place nowadays, not only would Rep. Preston Brooks (D, SC) be sent to prison, he would also aplogize and start Rehab while in prison!

The sudden need to apologize is asinine. We know that alot of really bad things were done by whites who colonized this land. We know alot of really bad things were done by whites under the flag of The United States. But a large amount of those things were not done by US! I mean it this way.. I hear from some African-Americans "You kept us as slaves".. Uhm.. sorry, but no I didnt keep you as slaves. I have never owned a slave, and you never were a slave.

Can someone tell me when we suddenly needed to apologize for everything?? Didnt this start when the Federal Government apologized for Japanese Internment during the WW2?

One more thing before my 2 cent ride comes to a stop...Why oh Why do we need to hyphenate American.... I thought, growing up as child of the 70's and 80's (someone help me!!!:rolleyes:) that we were, well, AMERICANS... not African-American, Arab-American, Mexican(or Latin-) American, Asian-American, or on and on.. (next thing you know the penguins will demand to be called Antarctic-Americans and the Polar Bears Arctic-Americans) Can we PLEASE just get back to the business of being Americans!

sbl
02-25-2007, 08:56 AM
Will,

My thoughts on this event is that while we as individuals weren't personally responsible, the government we still have existed then. In Massachusetts history...

"...In 1697 the General Court ordered a day of fasting and soul-searching for the tragedy at Salem. The General Court declared the 1692 trials unlawful. During the early 1700s Salem passed a bill, saying that those accused had their good name and rights as citizens restored, a bit late for all those already dead in the religious crossfire of the witch trials...."

"...1706 -- Ann Putnam wrote of letter of apology for her actions in the witchcraft affair, but still maintained that the devil made her do it...."

"...2001 -- all those accused of witchcraft were finally exonerated."

No_Know_Nothings
02-25-2007, 09:46 AM
The older I get, as my youthful arrogance continually wains, I have come to see that a little humble pie, collectively or individially taken, never hurt anyone. Apologizing and asking for forgiveness, even for something that you personnally didn't do, turns the tables on the accusers and places the onus on them to be equally humble and accept the apology. If my ancestors did anyone wrong, I willingly apologize on their behalf. Lord knows I've committed many, many wrongs in my life and I am no better than they were. We are our brother's, and our ancestor's, keepers. As the saying goes, the meek shall inherit the earth. I find it amazing that this principle, believed by so many Americans, is rarely practiced by them. We act as if a simple apology will somehow make us the doormat of the world. That is hardly the case. Apologizing always gives you the moral high ground. Take it and hold it and your enemies will find it hard to move you off of it.

bob 125th nysvi
02-25-2007, 11:24 AM
to laugh or cry.

With all the important CURRENT issues facing this country and all levels of government the politicians do this INSTEAD of addressing those issues.

And the press covers it like it is something of momumental importance.

In my opinion this is one reason that the Hispanic/Black Cacuas is starting to fall apart. Hispanic politicians are interested in the future and their place in Ameican society. African American politicians are only interested in use past transgressions to hang onto power.

And sadly a number of other politicians are only interested in pandering to groups to get their votes.

Bespeaks to me a real need for term limits and not a life-long entitlement to sitting in the seats of power. Even those with the best intentions will sooner or later, given enough changes, do something stupid.

My family wasn't here in the 1860s so I've got nothing to appoligize for. But they were confined to ethinic gettos and denied jobs when they arrived. When do I get my apology?

sbl
02-25-2007, 11:38 AM
When do I get my apology?

I'm sorry Bob.

MStuart
02-25-2007, 12:09 PM
When do I get my apology?

I'm sorry Bob.

Me, too, Bob.......how 'bout a hug? :-)

Mark

Hondo
02-25-2007, 01:41 PM
It was indeed a "black" (no pun) day in Vriginia. If we start doing this where does it stop? Does this mean I can in turn ask the British for the same? Or maybe I should sue for compensation.

I dont know any slaves or former slaves. Wow! I dont think any are still alive. No I dont agree with it or condone it in any way shape or form. However that does not change what has happened in the past and is still happening in other parts of the world today. Saying I am sorry regardless of the times changes nothing.

Do you really feel responsibile for the things your ancestors did? If that is so how far back do we go to "right the wrongs"?

Sorry to rant but it is a burr under my saddle.

Hondo

CivilWarBuff1863
02-25-2007, 02:59 PM
Well just like freedom isn't free same applies for equality, there is no equality here in the states. It's just bickering back and forth like little children in congress. I don't think our forefathers ever thought that America would end up like this. They're probably turning in thier graves right now.

sbl
02-25-2007, 03:51 PM
Hondo,

The institutions existing then, that exist now, are making amends as requested (or demanded) by groups that exist today of people wronged then.
We vote our Representatives in, we can vote them out if we don't like what they do.

We "play" at recreating people and institutions back then and try to experience and identify their "glory." How about accepting some responsibility for things they did?

sbl
02-25-2007, 03:54 PM
Wil,

I think you need a BIG ol' hug. Not from me though as I'm a Yankee and we keep our distance. ;-)

tenfed1861
02-25-2007, 04:51 PM
Let's get one thing clear.I am a lib democrate myself.Am I sorry for slavery in general?Yes.But appologize to black,then appologize to Native Americans as they were the first slave.Appologize to the surfs from Russia.Every group of people on Earth were slaves at one time or another.I am sorry for the WHOLE institute of slavery,not just this one case.And no,I don't think it was the cause of the war.
Cullen

Hondo
02-25-2007, 06:26 PM
Well said Cullen. It seems some think slavery only lasted for 4 years and only in the south. For the record when I see a slave I will personally say I am sorry for all the suffering they endured, guess that will be in Heaven.

Hondo

rbright
02-25-2007, 09:29 PM
Slavery started in Virginia about 1619 or so when I believe a Dutch ship docked at Jamestown. Those blacks were indentured servants and later were freed. Later blacks were indeed brought over as slaves since it was more cost effective. What I think people do not realize that there were many whites and others that were brought over as indentured servants to pay their passage to America. From what I have read these servants were little more than slaves in their treatment. I also agree, where is the apologies to the Native Americans whose land was stolen from them by the Europeans? Has there been a an apology by the Catholic Church for the many indegregressions by the conquistidors?
It has been almost 400 years since the colonist landed in Jamestown, VA. Columbus landed in 1492, Hispanola. What about those natives that were killed in the guise of conquest? Do we as a nation apologize for the diseases that killed off these natives in North America? When is it going to stop? I think everyone wants a fall guy and now is the time to forgive but remember. History must not be rewritten every time someone apologizes.
Thank you,
Roger Brightwell
Virginia expatriot

tenfed1861
02-25-2007, 09:45 PM
History is set.We can not change that.We're not Doc. Brown and Marty.We down have a Dalorian time machine.We can re-write it to please some whinny babies (this coming from a liberal) who are "offended" and demand an appology.All we can do is to try and learn from it."The past is the torch that lights our way". As Doc Brown says "The future is un-written".All we can do is try to keep it from happening again.If they want to stop slavery,stop the sweat shop conditions in third world contries.Stop the sex slave trade.That is how you can truely honor those who went through slavery.Stop it from happeneing again.(My do-gooder liberalism is coming out.Don't worry,I am not a hippie.I personally dis-like hippies myself.Lousy,greasy hippies).
Cullen

reb64
02-25-2007, 10:42 PM
Roger Brightwell
Virginia expatriot

Why were on where is the apology for this and that. where's the south's?

Robert A Mosher
02-25-2007, 11:03 PM
Why were on where is the apology for this and that. where's the south's?

"And I'm glad that these little children were here to listen to this example of original frontier gibberish."


However, with the help of Clint Eastwood's interpretation (when he wasn't translating from Italian into English at the Oscar's) I will offer the guess (based on signature, context, etc) that the author of this post is looking for an apology from the 'North' to the 'South,' though he doesn't say what the apology would be about. I'd be in favor of that - just as soon as the South apologizes for starting the war and assassinating President Lincoln.

Think there's any chance of it?

Robert A. Mosher

VA Soldier
02-26-2007, 07:04 AM
an apology from the 'North' to the 'South,' though he doesn't say what the apology would be about. I'd be in favor of that - just as soon as the South apologizes for starting the war and assassinating President Lincoln.



First- The south can not be held responsible for the begining of the war, at least not solely responsible. The south was provoked into the war by James Buchanaon's do nothing attitued and Lincoln's foot dragging. Lincoln put the south into a position where they would have to either act or give in by not giving up Fort Sumter, He knew that the south would act and by them "fireing the first shot" would give him the right to act against them militarily, Lincoln was going after the moral high ground by backing the Confederacy into a corner. Both the north and south had reached a breaking point in 1861. Secession was not an automatic call for war, the south had been threatening it for years, and they finally acted, you can only push someone so far.

Second-You can not blame the South for the assassination of Lincoln. John Wilkes Booth acted with 2 acomplises, though many more people would be eventually hanged for this offense because the Union authorities went on a witch hunt. Davis upon learning of this (pharaphrasing a little) remarked it was the 2nd darkest day for the South. The assassination gauranteed the harsh years of reconstruction, The South was punished for the acts of a few madmen.

If we are going to start doling out apologies like candy then what about the North to the South? What about the wanton destruction of private property un related to the war? What about the Lincoln government's suspension of civil liberties in the North, what about arresting 2/3 or the Maryland legislature to prevent a vote on Secession, what about the military tribunals to try civilians, what about the newspapers shut down due to anti-war editorials? what about the suspension of habeius corpus? What about Lincoln ordering the arrest of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court? (never followed through of course)

There are skeletons in everyone's closets, the finger pointing can go on endlessly. What happened happened, it is History, it is in the past, We should endeavor to study it, learn from it, and do our best to ensure that the mistakes of the past do not repeat themselves.

D. A. Jackson

jthlmnn
02-26-2007, 07:27 AM
Let's get one thing clear.I am a lib democrate myself.Am I sorry for slavery in general?Yes.But appologize to black,then appologize to Native Americans as they were the first slave.Appologize to the surfs from Russia.Every group of people on Earth were slaves at one time or another.I am sorry for the WHOLE institute of slavery,not just this one case.And no,I don't think it was the cause of the war.
Cullen


1) This "one case" is unique in the history of the world. In what would become the United States, it was transformed into an inherited status. To justify this change, an assortment of pseudo-theological and pseudo-scientific rationales were developed and employed. After the legal institution of slavery was abolished, these rationales lived on and served to justify economic & social enslavement under the Jim Crow laws. To this day, they still serve the cause of prejudice, bigotry and discrimination. As for the attempted genocide of Native Americans, like the institution of slavery, it was based on the belief that these were not "people", but rather some form of sub-human species. Further, like slavery, the effects of this belief linger in the prejudices and bigotry, employed against these people to this day. (By the way, the Catholic Church, as an institution, officially recognized Native Americans as human beings. What was done to the natives by the Conquistadores and others cannot be laid at their collective doorstep.)

2) Apologies do not cost a single nickle, yet they have great value. Many conflicts, whether international or personal in scale, could be avoided or ended with a simple and sincere apology. In this "one case", where the impact of the unique practice of the institution has resulted in ongoing prejudice and injustice, an apology goes a long way in erasing the rationales that support those lingering effects. Phrased another way, its not just about what happened "back then", its very much about what is still happening "now".

3) PLEASE, people, use the spell-check/grammar function before submitting your thoughts and opinions. If you are going to take the time and put forth the effort to express your thoughts and opinions in a public forum, then give those thoughts and opinions the respect they deserve by stating them accurately and appropriately.

Ohioreb1861
02-26-2007, 07:47 AM
1) This "one case" is unique in the history of the world. In what would become the United States, it was transformed into an inherited status. To justify this change, an assortment of pseudo-theological and pseudo-scientific rationales were developed and employed. After the legal institution of slavery was abolished, these rationales lived on and served to justify economic & social enslavement under the Jim Crow laws. To this day, they still serve the cause of prejudice, bigotry and discrimination. As for the attempted genocide of Native Americans, like the institution of slavery, it was based on the belief that these were not "people", but rather some form of sub-human species. Further, like slavery, the effects of this belief linger in the prejudices and bigotry, employed against these people to this day. (By the way, the Catholic Church, as an institution, officially recognized Native Americans as human beings. What was done to the natives by the Conquistadores and others cannot be laid at their collective doorstep.)

2) Apologies do not cost a single nickle, yet they have great value. Many conflicts, whether international or personal in scale, could be avoided or ended with a simple and sincere apology. In this "one case", where the impact of the unique practice of the institution has resulted in ongoing prejudice and injustice, an apology goes a long way in erasing the rationales that support those lingering effects. Phrased another way, its not just about what happened "back then", its very much about what is still happening "now".

3) PLEASE, people, use the spell-check/grammar function before submitting your thoughts and opinions. If you are going to take the time and put forth the effort to express your thoughts and opinions in a public forum, then give those thoughts and opinions the respect they deserve by stating them accurately and appropriately.


Uh, you misspelled Conquistadors and nickel.

hanktrent
02-26-2007, 08:02 AM
Anyone notice the irony, that the arguments presented against the resolution are the same ones that developers present against the preservation of Civil War battlefields?

--The people who fought there are all long dead. Let's worry about modern people's real problems that we can do something about, like jobs and housing.

--People have suffered and died in wars from the beginning of time, and we've already done plenty to remember the Civil War. Why do we need yet more historic markers in a field?

--What about everyone else's ancestors? If we preserve this special interest site, then everyone else will demand that we preserve theirs and everyone else's too, and pretty soon every place will be a historic park and there will be no place to live or work.

The people who make those arguments against historic preservation are generally sincere, and to some extent have legitimate points. It's just ironic to hear reenactors use those same debating points against someone else's choice of how to remember or memorialize participants in another historic situation.

Compared to the choice between a housing development or an industrial park vs. creating a state or national park, the resolution really does have minimal physical impact. It's all about pride, I guess: "I didn't do anything wrong, so why should I apologize?" Or the "me too" syndrome. "How come they're getting an apology and I'm not?"

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

jthlmnn
02-26-2007, 08:19 AM
Uh, you misspelled Conquistadors and nickel.

"Conquistadores" is actually one of the two choices for the plural. (It follows the Spanish form.) "Nickle" is also an accepted alternative spelling. Since both are the less frquently used choices, I tip my hat to your sharp eyes.

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 10:17 AM
Anyone notice the irony, that the arguments presented against the resolution are the same ones that developers present against the preservation of Civil War battlefields?

--The people who fought there are all long dead. Let's worry about modern people's real problems that we can do something about, like jobs and housing.

--People have suffered and died in wars from the beginning of time, and we've already done plenty to remember the Civil War. Why do we need yet more historic markers in a field?

--What about everyone else's ancestors? If we preserve this special interest site, then everyone else will demand that we preserve theirs and everyone else's too, and pretty soon every place will be a historic park and there will be no place to live or work.

The people who make those arguments against historic preservation are generally sincere, and to some extent have legitimate points. It's just ironic to hear reenactors use those same debating points against someone else's choice of how to remember or memorialize participants in another historic situation.

Compared to the choice between a housing development or an industrial park vs. creating a state or national park, the resolution really does have minimal physical impact. It's all about pride, I guess: "I didn't do anything wrong, so why should I apologize?" Or the "me too" syndrome. "How come they're getting an apology and I'm not?"

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank,

Well said, it's good to see an opposing view to my own presented in a proper context and without snippiness. My belief is the ones wanting the apologies are ones who have alterior motives in the political arena.

Malingerer
02-26-2007, 11:30 AM
Robert,
Is it not also reasonable to assume that those opposing an apology also have ulterior motives in the political arena? I personally don't think the apology is nearly as important as the recognition of what slavery (and a hundred years of Jim Crow Laws) has done to both demographic stratification and race relations in our country. That stratification has helped whites and harmed blacks. My white skin has consistently opened doors that would have been barred to me had I been born Black where I grew up (Mississippi) - so I would have to argue that I am a benificiary of the injustices of the past. Given that my personal gain has been at the expence of an entire race I think the least I owe is a simple apology.
Respects,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC

tompritchett
02-26-2007, 11:34 AM
Well said, it's good to see an opposing view to my own presented in a proper context and without snippiness. My belief is the ones wanting the apologies are ones who have alterior motives in the political arena.

Interestingly enough, I agree with you on the motive part but tend to agree more with Hank on the issuing of the apology. Granted part of me rebels at the idea of having to apologize for the sins of my fathers but the more rational part sees the apology as a final means to put the past behind us once and for all - and all for little cost except for slightly wounded pride. Refusing to apologize just allows the issue to grow and fester, thus increasing the political clout of the advocates within the black/Indian/whatever community. Since, IMHO, the alterior motive is indeed the increasing their own political clout at the expense of healing the wounds of our nation's racist past, defusing the issue by the apology is, in the end, defeating their alterior motive - as well as preventing the re-opening wounds from festering.

No_Know_Nothings
02-26-2007, 12:01 PM
Anyone notice the irony, that the arguments presented against the resolution are the same ones that developers present against the preservation of Civil War battlefields?

--The people who fought there are all long dead. Let's worry about modern people's real problems that we can do something about, like jobs and housing.

--People have suffered and died in wars from the beginning of time, and we've already done plenty to remember the Civil War. Why do we need yet more historic markers in a field?

--What about everyone else's ancestors? If we preserve this special interest site, then everyone else will demand that we preserve theirs and everyone else's too, and pretty soon every place will be a historic park and there will be no place to live or work.

The people who make those arguments against historic preservation are generally sincere, and to some extent have legitimate points. It's just ironic to hear reenactors use those same debating points against someone else's choice of how to remember or memorialize participants in another historic situation.

Compared to the choice between a housing development or an industrial park vs. creating a state or national park, the resolution really does have minimal physical impact. It's all about pride, I guess: "I didn't do anything wrong, so why should I apologize?" Or the "me too" syndrome. "How come they're getting an apology and I'm not?"

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Can you directly quote any developers who have made these type of remarks against historical preservation lately? These sound like soundbytes from "Manassas Maller" Til Hazel from twenty years ago.

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 12:15 PM
Robert,
Is it not also reasonable to assume that those opposing an apology also have ulterior motives in the political arena? I personally don't think the apology is nearly as important as the recognition of what slavery (and a hundred years of Jim Crow Laws) has done to both demographic stratification and race relations in our country. That stratification has helped whites and harmed blacks. My white skin has consistently opened doors that would have been barred to me had I been born Black where I grew up (Mississippi) - so I would have to argue that I am a benificiary of the injustices of the past. Given that my personal gain has been at the expence of an entire race I think the least I owe is a simple apology.
Respects,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC

As to the issue at hand, how can I apologize for an act in which I had no hand whatsoever. The problem is people want to blame others for being offended it is the one being offended who has control over their feelings. I for one have not seen doors opened to me due to my race (grew up in Georgia) but quite the opposite. I do not qulify for special consideration in employment, financing of major purchases, or any aspect of my life. I believe we are much closer to Dr. King's ideal of judging a person by the content of their character than by the color of their skin than many are willing to admit. I believe in equal protection and I believe we have that today. I have worked for companies in the past who had to spend incredible amounts on money defending themselves against foundless suits under the EEOC. By expressing these types of views though I am possibly being targeted as being racist or at least prejudiced which I am not, I try to look at things from a totally removed point of view where I try not to let personal feelings interfere with my judgement (a nearly impossible task I admit). There have been many occasions where I have expressed an opinion that was contrary to my own personal benefit because it was the right thing to do. Now if we can offer up some sort of document that admits the wrongs that were committed during the founding of our great republic and protects us from further liability or discourse then I would be agreeable to that. My problem with the subject is that as it stands, I feel there is too much left that can come back to haunt us.

As to whether or not people opposing this idea have alterior motives, perhaps, but the majority I know are in the same mind set as I am. What I see on the opposite side of the argument bothers me in that many of the leaders of the movement are also the ones who are pushing for further resolutions to include the paying of reparations. Understand that my ancestors were treated badly as well and more recently with the Irish Immigration at the turn of the century and the culture clash between the "white" (how I hate using color) and the indeginous tribes of people who were forceably removed from the hills of the Carolinas and Tenneesee as I am prodiminately of Irish and Cherokee descent with a small amount of French hence my last name. I have long forgiven those who oppressed my ancestors and moved on and I think it is time we all did the same. Forgiveness does not come in the asking but in the giving. This to me is the bottom line, those demanding the apology are not generally the ones willing to give the forgiveness. Now in anything I do that causes unintentional harm or pain, I am the first to apologize but I can not apologize for that which others have done as it is disengenious at best.

Malingerer
02-26-2007, 12:41 PM
Robert,
Well said you eloquent dog! You make serveral excellent ponts that I failed to consider and as usual you got me reconsidering my original position. I would say however, that I dont necessarily agree that this is a slipery slope that will ultimately lead to reparations. Your point about forgiveness needing to be freely given and not exacted is spot on.
Respects,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 01:34 PM
Robert,
Well said you eloquent dog! You make serveral excellent ponts that I failed to consider and as usual you got me reconsidering my original position. I would say however, that I dont necessarily agree that this is a slipery slope that will ultimately lead to reparations. Your point about forgiveness needing to be freely given and not exacted is spot on.
Respects,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC

Thanks Peter,

I too would hope that it is not a slippery slope, but unfortunately human nature is what it is and there are those who will take a mile if you give them an inch. Call it cautious negativity but I subscribe to most things as Reagan did when he expressed "trust but confirm". I would just feel better if the way this was handled in some manner put the issue to rest once and for all. Once agian I think it is just time for people to stop worrying about the past (leave that up to us reenactors ;-) ) and start planning for the future. What has happened has happened, no apology is going to change that. To be honest, I feel we have offered the apology over and over again through acts such as affirmative action, increasing the penalty for crime when race was a motivating factor, etc. What we need to do is look forward and decide how we proceed, as one nation and one people, or do we continue to fracture our republic along whatever racial, ethnic, religious, or socio-economic lines we can? I agree with what someone else posted in that we need to drop the hyphens and be Americans. Celebrate our individuality and our cultural differences, but also understand that we must be one people when all is said and done. We need to stop loking at our differences and examine what makes us alike, why study Dr. King under the heading of "Black History" instead of under "Great Americans". To be truly color blind we all must subscribe to that ethos whether we are in the majority or one of the minority races within this great land. When we can do that with regularity then we will be what this nation is capable of being. We are the greatest nation on the face of the Earth but we have so much more potential. I for one reenact for a number of reasons one of which is to remind ourselves that what once happened can happen again without due dilligence.

Malingerer
02-26-2007, 02:10 PM
Thanks Peter,

I too would hope that it is not a slippery slope, but unfortunately human nature is what it is and there are those who will take a mile if you give them an inch. Call it cautious negativity but I subscribe to most things as Reagan did when he expressed "trust but confirm". I would just feel better if the way this was handled in some manner put the issue to rest once and for all. Once agian I think it is just time for people to stop worrying about the past (leave that up to us reenactors ;-) ) and start planning for the future. What has happened has happened, no apology is going to change that. To be honest, I feel we have offered the apology over and over again through acts such as affirmative action, increasing the penalty for crime when race was a motivating factor, etc. What we need to do is look forward and decide how we proceed, as one nation and one people, or do we continue to fracture our republic along whatever racial, ethnic, religious, or socio-economic lines we can? I agree with what someone else posted in that we need to drop the hyphens and be Americans. Celebrate our individuality and our cultural differences, but also understand that we must be one people when all is said and done. We need to stop loking at our differences and examine what makes us alike, why study Dr. King under the heading of "Black History" instead of under "Great Americans". To be truly color blind we all must subscribe to that ethos whether we are in the majority or one of the minority races within this great land. When we can do that with regularity then we will be what this nation is capable of being. We are the greatest nation on the face of the Earth but we have so much more potential. I for one reenact for a number of reasons one of which is to remind ourselves that what once happened can happen again without due dilligence.
OK Robert,
You simply must stop being profound - and right. If you keep this up I'm going to end up becoming a conservative. Oh the horror!
Regards,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 02:40 PM
OK Robert,
You simply must stop being profound - and right. If you keep this up I'm going to end up becoming a conservative. Oh the horror!
Regards,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC


Just keep walking towards the light :-D

bizzilizzit
02-26-2007, 03:28 PM
Slavery started in Virginia about 1619 or so when I believe a Dutch ship docked at Jamestown. Those blacks were indentured servants and later were freed.
It has been almost 400 years since the colonist landed in Jamestown, VA. Roger Brightwell
Virginia expatriot


And THAT is exactly why Virgina apologized - the Jamestown anniversary is coming up and they don't want trouble.
Elizabeth

flattop32355
02-26-2007, 03:56 PM
From Dictionary.com:

a·pol·o·gy [uh-pol-uh-jee]
–noun, plural -gies. 1. a written or spoken expression of one's regret, remorse, or sorrow for having insulted, failed, injured, or wronged another.

If I'm not the one who did the harm, I cannot, by definition, apologize for it. I can sympathize, even empathize, with those harmed, but I cannot legitimately apologize for it.

I can admit that the wrong done should never have happened, and express regret that it did, indeed, occur. I can work to see that it never happens on my watch, but I cannot apologize for it.

bob 125th nysvi
02-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Interestingly enough, I agree with you on the motive part but tend to agree more with Hank on the issuing of the apology. Granted part of me rebels at the idea of having to apologize for the sins of my fathers but the more rational part sees the apology as a final means to put the past behind us once and for all - and all for little cost except for slightly wounded pride. Refusing to apologize just allows the issue to grow and fester, thus increasing the political clout of the advocates within the black/Indian/whatever community. Since, IMHO, the alterior motive is indeed the increasing their own political clout at the expense of healing the wounds of our nation's racist past, defusing the issue by the apology is, in the end, defeating their alterior motive - as well as preventing the re-opening wounds from festering.

if it was going to end there but it isn't.

Since people refuse to learn about slavery in America (like the fact that Africans SOLD the other Africans to the Americans or that the African slave tarde existed for about 2000 years before America was founded and officially for at least another 40 years after the war was over) they can never get past the 'we were wronged, we need somebody to blame and we are owed something'.

The unfortunate implication of apologizing for the deeds of others is that the people making the apology are somehow responsible or directly benefited from the wrong.

Neither of which is provable.

The reality is if they were going to move past it they would have done so already.

By the way, the Cherokee's owned slaves so who gets their apology first? The Cherokees for what we did to them or the African Americans for what the Cherokees did to them?

Or how about this, what about the free black slave owners of pre-war New Orleans society? Do THEIR desendents owe apologies to other African-Americans or are they owed an apology because the Civil War not only denied them their property but also equal rights?

Gets real messy doesn't it?

Robert A Mosher
02-26-2007, 06:24 PM
Well, after enough back and forth on this, I decided to go and found out what the Virginia legislature actually voted on:

Begin text, courtesy of the Richmond Democrat:


WHEREAS, slavery has been documented as a worldwide practice since antiquity, dating back to 3500 B.C. in ancient Mesopotamia; and

WHEREAS, during the course of the infamous Atlantic slave trade, millions of Africans became involuntary immigrants to the New World, and the first African slaves in the North American colonies were brought to Jamestown, in 1619; and

WHEREAS, the Atlantic slave trade was a lucrative enterprise, and African slaves, a prized commodity to support the economic base of plantations in the colonies, were traded for tropical products, manufactured goods, sugar, molasses, and other merchandise; and

WHEREAS, some African captives resisted enslavement by fleeing from slave forts on the West African coast and others mutinied aboard slave trading vessels, cast themselves into the Atlantic Ocean, or risked the cruel retaliation of their masters by running away to seek freedom; and

WHEREAS, although the United States outlawed the transatlantic slave trade in 1808, the domestic slave trade in the colonies and illegal importation continued for several decades; and

WHEREAS, slavery, or the "Peculiar Institution," in the United States resembled no other form of involuntary servitude, as Africans were captured and sold at auction as chattel, like inanimate property or animals; and

WHEREAS, to prime Africans for slavery, the ethos of the Africans was shattered, they were brutalized, humiliated, dehumanized, and subjected to the indignity of being stripped of their names and heritage, and families were disassembled as husbands and wives, mothers and daughters, and fathers and sons were sold into slavery apart from one another; and

WHEREAS, a series of complex colonial laws were enacted to relegate the status of Africans and their descendants to slavery, in spite of their loyalty, dedication, and service to the country, including heroic and distinguished service in the Civil War; and

WHEREAS, the system of slavery had become entrenched in American history and the social fabric, and the issue of enslaved Africans had to be addressed as a national issue, contributing to the Civil War from 1861 to 1865 and the passage of the 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution, which abolished slavery and involuntary servitude on December 18, 1865; and

WHEREAS, after emancipation from 246 years of slavery, African Americans soon saw the political, social, and economic gains they made during Reconstruction dissipated by virulent and rabid racism, lynchings, disenfranchisement of African-American voters, Black Codes designed to reimpose the subordination of African Americans, and Jim Crow laws that instituted a rigid system of de jure segregation in virtually all areas of life and that lasted until the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act; and

WHEREAS, throughout their existence in America and even in the decades after the Civil Rights Movement, African Americans have found the struggle to overcome the bitter legacy of slavery long and arduous, and for many African Americans the scars left behind are unbearable, haunting their psyches and clouding their vision of the future and of America's many attributes; and

WHEREAS, acknowledgment of the crimes and persecution visited upon other peoples during World War II is embraced lest the world forget, yet the very mention of the broken promise of "40 acres and a mule" to former slaves or of the existence of racism today evokes denial from many quarters of any responsibility for the centuries of legally sanctioned deprivation of African Americans of their endowed rights or for contemporary policies that perpetuate the status quo; and

WHEREAS, in 2003, during a trip to Goree Island, Senegal, a former slave port, President George W. Bush stated, "Slavery is one of the greatest crimes of history, and its legacy still vexes the United States ... Small men took on the powers and airs of tyrants and masters. Years of unpunished brutality and bullying and rape produced a dullness and hardness of conscience. Christian men and women became blind to the clearest commands of their faith and added hypocrisy to injustice. While physical slavery is dead, the legacy is alive. My nation's journey toward justice has not been easy, and it is not over. For racial bigotry fed by slavery did not end with slavery or with segregation ... and many of the issues that still trouble America have roots in the bitter experience of other times ... But however long the journey, our destiny is set: liberty and justice for all"; and

WHEREAS, in the Commonwealth, home to the first African slaves, the vestiges of slavery are ever before African American citizens, from the overt racism of hate groups to the subtle racism encountered when requesting health care, transacting business, buying a home, seeking quality public education and college admission, and enduring pretextual traffic stops and other indignities; and

WHEREAS, European and African nations have apologized for their roles in what history calls the worst holocaust of humankind, the Atlantic Slave Trade, and racial reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the moral and legal injustices perpetrated upon African Americans; and

WHEREAS, an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help African American and white citizens confront the ghosts of their collective pasts together; and

WHEREAS, the story of the enslavement of Africans and their descendants, the human carnage, and the dehumanizing atrocities committed during slavery should not be purged from Virginia's history or discounted; moreover, the faith, perseverance, hope, and endless triumphs of African Americans and their significant contributions to the development of this Commonwealth and the nation should be embraced, celebrated, and retold for generations to come; and

WHEREAS, the perpetual pain, distrust, and bitterness of many African Americans could be assuaged and the principles espoused by the Founding Fathers would be affirmed, and great strides toward unifying all Virginians and inspiring the nation to acquiesce might be accomplished, if on the eve of the commemoration of the 400th anniversary of the first permanent English settlement in the New World, the Commonwealth acknowledged and atoned for its pivotal role in the slavery of Africans; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED by the Senate, the House of Delegates concurring, That the General Assembly hereby atone for the involuntary servitude of Africans and call for reconciliation among all Virginians; and, be it

RESOLVED FURTHER, That the Clerk of the Senate transmit a copy of this resolution to the Secretary of the Commonwealth, the Secretary of Education, the Superintendent of Public Instruction, the Executive Director of the State Council of Higher Education, the Chancellor of the Virginia Community College System, and the Executive Director of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, Virginia State Chapter, requesting that they further disseminate copies of this resolution to their respective constituents so that they may be apprised of the sense of the General Assembly of Virginia in this matter.

End text.

I guess one would say there are two parts to this text - the extensive presentation of of historical facts and then a stated sense of the legislature that it should 'atone' for these historical facts by approving this statement of "the sense of the General Assembly of Virginia."

So you need to read it and decide whether they got the historical facts right. Then you have to decide whether the General Assembly on behalf of the Commonwealth of Virginia should in fact express regret for the historical role played by the Commonwealth in the establishment and sustainment of slavery and thus attempt "to atone" for that role.

Robert A. Mosher

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 06:42 PM
One thing on the historical side jumps at me and that is the special military order 15 reference of 40 acres and a mule which was in effect for the Savannah Georgia area and was rescinded by President Johnson. Overall this seems to be nothing more than a feel good effort of the Virginia commonwealth that does nothing to end the issue.

flattop32355
02-26-2007, 07:27 PM
From Dictionary.com:

a·tone /əˈtoʊn/
–verb (used without object) 1. to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime, or for an offender (usually fol. by for): to atone for one's sins.
2. to make up, as for errors or deficiencies (usually fol. by for): to atone for one's failings.
3. Obsolete. to become reconciled; agree.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make amends for; expiate: He atoned his sins.
5. Obsolete. to bring into unity, harmony, concord, etc.

Where we'll get into the shouting match is whether some insist that reparations are in order, or whether we just bring into harmony/unity.

Get ready for the lawsuits....Someone's gonna try it.

hanktrent
02-26-2007, 09:01 PM
Get ready for the lawsuits....Someone's gonna try it.

"Atone" is what jumped out at me too. Acknowledge, reconciliate, apologize, yeah, no problem. But in a roomful of lawyers, nobody said, "Uh, fellows, 'atone' might not be exactly what we mean here, if this is supposed to be a no-cost feel-good statement..."? Wow.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyagern.et

hanktrent
02-26-2007, 09:22 PM
The unfortunate implication of apologizing for the deeds of others is that the people making the apology are somehow responsible or directly benefited from the wrong.

There's also the other kind of apology.

Person 1: "My old dog died."
Person 2: "Oh, I'm sorry."

There's no implication that Person 2 killed the dog. It just means, "I'm sorry that something unfortunate happened," and is a general reference to the fact that it's sad the dog died and it's a shame bad things happen in the world. Maybe this whole things bothers me less, because that's how I'm picturing it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bob 125th nysvi
02-26-2007, 09:42 PM
There's also the other kind of apology.

Person 1: "My old dog died."
Person 2: "Oh, I'm sorry."

There's no implication that Person 2 killed the dog. It just means, "I'm sorry that something unfortunate happened," and is a general reference to the fact that it's sad the dog died and it's a shame bad things happen in the world. Maybe this whole things bothers me less, because that's how I'm picturing it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

as in there is no reference to why the dog died, either through action or inaction on the part of person 2.

Unfortunately the Virgina Senate seems to be making an apology for the actions/inactions of a previous Virginia Government.

I still think it is just a political stunt.

Geez they wouldn't do that would they?

bob 125th nysvi
02-26-2007, 09:53 PM
First- The south can not be held responsible for the begining of the war, at least not solely responsible. The south was provoked into the war by James Buchanaon's do nothing attitued and Lincoln's foot dragging. Lincoln put the south into a position where they would have to either act or give in by not giving up Fort Sumter, He knew that the south would act and by them "fireing the first shot" would give him the right to act against them militarily, Lincoln was going after the moral high ground by backing the Confederacy into a corner. Both the north and south had reached a breaking point in 1861. Secession was not an automatic call for war, the south had been threatening it for years, and they finally acted, you can only push someone so far.

pardon me for being a traditionalist but usually the side that takes the first shot is credited with starting the war. And southern secessionists took great pride in the fact that they fired the first shot.

Your rational for the south firing on Ft. Sumter, the Government forced us to do it, is scaringly similiar to the Japanese rational for attacking Pearl Harbor.

If you hadn't stop selling us war materials we wouldn't have attacked you.

Lincoln made NO offensive actions against the south. He made a move to secure a US government facility from being seized by potential rebels. Furthermore he hadn't suggested any LEGISLATION that would have threatened the south's perculiar institution. In fact he STATED that he did not feel that the Federal Government had the authority to end slavery.

He took action AFTER a US government Facility was first threatened then fired on my secessionist forces.

The south could have NOT taken that step and either fought the abolistionist forces in the Congress or in Court (where they had been doing very well thank you) but NO they had to start shooting.

And in doing so not only started the war but united the north fairly firmly behind Lincoln and the Radicals.

Got no one to blame but them.

bob 125th nysvi
02-26-2007, 09:55 PM
thanks for the apology boys I feel much better now.

Can we have a group hug and then hold hands singing Kumbiya?

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 10:02 PM
From Dictionary.com:

a·tone /əˈtoʊn/
–verb (used without object) 1. to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime, or for an offender (usually fol. by for): to atone for one's sins.
2. to make up, as for errors or deficiencies (usually fol. by for): to atone for one's failings.
3. Obsolete. to become reconciled; agree.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make amends for; expiate: He atoned his sins.
5. Obsolete. to bring into unity, harmony, concord, etc.

Where we'll get into the shouting match is whether some insist that reparations are in order, or whether we just bring into harmony/unity.

Get ready for the lawsuits....Someone's gonna try it.

Glad I wasn't the only one to see it, hence the slippery slope I referenced earlier.

tompritchett
02-26-2007, 10:37 PM
If I'm not the one who did the harm, I cannot, by definition, apologize for it. I can sympathize, even empathize, with those harmed, but I cannot legitimately apologize for it.

or you can apologize on behalf of another party. This has been done many times through history.

toptimlrd
02-26-2007, 11:01 PM
or you can apologize on behalf of another party. This has been done many times through history.

Tom,

I think I know where you are coming from but it really is not relevant in this case. The CEO of Exxon can apologize for the Valdez incident although he had no direct part in it because one of his charges was responsible. In this case apologizing without any association continues to be disengenuous and rightly should mean absolutely nothing to those seeking tha apology. Tom you could apologize for the way the Irish were treated when they first immigrated to this country and I could take that apology along with about $3 and get a coffee at Starbucks; it would be worthless. The same is true for anything we try to do now. As I mentioned earlier all of us, Americans, have got to stop dwelling on past injustices and work together for a better tomorrow. Does anyone really think that the apology offered by Virginia means anything to those who descend from slaves? The ones who have gotten over it will continue to live their lives as they always have and those who carry a grudge will continue to do so and now will look for the next thing they can use to continue driving that wedge.

jthlmnn
02-27-2007, 09:13 AM
Tom,

Does anyone really think that the apology offered by Virginia means anything to those who descend from slaves?

I believe that to a good many people it most certainly will be a very important statement. It will be important because it acknowledges and demonstrates the connection of the past practice of slavery, in its unique American form, with succeeding and current prejudices and discriminations. It shows how what happened then has shaped and still influences what is happening NOW. The attitudes and rationales that were employed to legitimize slavery are still with us. They are not historical curiosities. They are part of a current problem that those who descend from slaves contend with every day. I believe the proclamation is important for all Americans because it addresses realities of our national life today.

For your consideration,

toptimlrd
02-27-2007, 09:43 AM
I believe that to a good many people it most certainly will be a very important statement. It will be important because it acknowledges and demonstrates the connection of the past practice of slavery, in its unique American form, with succeeding and current prejudices and discriminations. It shows how what happened then has shaped and still influences what is happening NOW. The attitudes and rationales that were employed to legitimize slavery are still with us. They are not historical curiosities. They are part of a current problem that those who descend from slaves contend with every day. I believe the proclamation is important for all Americans because it addresses realities of our national life today.

For your consideration,

In rare instances possibly and this proclamation does what to correct those very few who can not get over racial differences? Like I said earlier, the apology was given and restitution made with programs such as afirmative action, special loans for minority businesses, education, etc., stiffer penalties for crimes where race ws a motivating factor. Now that Virginia has pledged to "atone" how long will it be before Jessee Jackson and Al Sharpton start trying to extort $$ from the state for that atonement? If anything these types of proclamations cause the wedge to be driven deeper. We need to stop living our regular lives in the past (reenactments excepted of course) and worry about tomorrow. Learn from the past but do not dwell on it. It reminds me of a customer service expression for dealing with someone who can not be pleased: "If we were to shut down, shoot the manager,and burn down the building, would that satisfy you?" The ones who continually press for such action are still not going to be happy regardless of what anybody does. I read the document several times and it does absolutely nothing other than fan the flames at best.

Malingerer
02-27-2007, 09:48 AM
Feel the need to apologize all the time??? I mean, should one listen to the Radio or TV news, someone does something that causes a stir, immediatly apologizes, and then enters rehab! Heck, If the Brooks/Sumner affair had taken place nowadays, not only would Rep. Preston Brooks (D, SC) be sent to prison, he would also aplogize and start Rehab while in prison!

The sudden need to apologize is asinine. We know that alot of really bad things were done by whites who colonized this land. We know alot of really bad things were done by whites under the flag of The United States. But a large amount of those things were not done by US! I mean it this way.. I hear from some African-Americans "You kept us as slaves".. Uhm.. sorry, but no I didnt keep you as slaves. I have never owned a slave, and you never were a slave.

Can someone tell me when we suddenly needed to apologize for everything?? Didnt this start when the Federal Government apologized for Japanese Internment during the WW2?

One more thing before my 2 cent ride comes to a stop...Why oh Why do we need to hyphenate American.... I thought, growing up as child of the 70's and 80's (someone help me!!!:rolleyes:) that we were, well, AMERICANS... not African-American, Arab-American, Mexican(or Latin-) American, Asian-American, or on and on.. (next thing you know the penguins will demand to be called Antarctic-Americans and the Polar Bears Arctic-Americans) Can we PLEASE just get back to the business of being Americans!
OK Wildcat, a couple things:
1. If the Sumner-Brooks affair happened today I would hope that Sumner would shoot that redneck Brooks down in his tracks.
2. As Bill Mahr once said "If Southerners want to get over their inferiority complex they have to stop doing inferior things". I would add that we need to stop celebrating inferior things - like the Confederacy for instance.
3. Apologies are a way of recognizing that a serious transgression occured and MAY help us come together as a nation to heal a self-imposed injury.
4. And, that injury didn't just end in 1865 - we kept Blacks under our thumbs for another hundred years - and that's something I withnessed firsthand. Gowing up in Mississippi during desegregation I had the opportunity to watch grown adults (I know many of them today and to a man they call themselves conservatives) hurl insults, rocks, and bottles at a handfull of elementry school age Black children who had the timerity to want an equal education. Oh yah, and many of these so-called adults were waving the Confederate flag.
5. That history has automatically given Whites an upper hand economicaly and politicaly.
Respects,
Peter Julius,
Bryson City, NC
Cajun-American

hanktrent
02-27-2007, 10:45 AM
Going back to the "sorry your dog died" analogy... Which person sounds like they feel some lingering guilt over the dog's death:

Person 1: "My old dog died."
Person 2: "Oh, I'm sorry."

or

Person 1: "My old dog died."
Person 2: "Well it wasn't my fault."

Ironically, the more that modern Americans insist they weren't responsible for slavery, the more it sounds like they really do feel guilty about it. My ancestors landed at Jamestown and owned slaves in Virginia as long as they could. But I don't see how I can take any personal credit or feel any guilt for what they did before I was even born, so it seems perfectly natural for me to say, "Hey, I'm sorry your ancestors had it so rough."

Calculated political move? Well, sure, in the same sense that people express sympathy all the time for things they may not care that much about personally, because it's what the other person wants to hear and they might want the same favor some day.

And yes, this seems like a trade-off: If we acknowledge that you guys didn't have it so good, can we get a little slack to celebrate what we did at Jamestown? Other than the troublesome question of who's "we," it seems a fair enough trade.

But I still say "atone" was stupid, unless they actually intend to start handing out 40-acre plots with mules. :rolleyes:

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

sbl
02-27-2007, 11:57 AM
Peter Julius,

Clap clap clap (applause)

jthlmnn
02-27-2007, 12:38 PM
WHEREAS, in 2003, during a trip to Goree Island, Senegal, a former slave port, President George W. Bush stated.... "While physical slavery is dead, the legacy is alive. My nation's journey toward justice has not been easy, and it is not over. For racial bigotry fed by slavery did not end with slavery or with segregation ... and many of the issues that still trouble America have roots in the bitter experience of other times ... But however long the journey, our destiny is set: liberty and justice for all"; and

WHEREAS, in the Commonwealth, home to the first African slaves, the vestiges of slavery are ever before African American citizens, from the overt racism of hate groups to the subtle racism encountered when requesting health care, transacting business, buying a home, seeking quality public education and college admission, and enduring pretextual traffic stops and other indignities; and

WHEREAS, European and African nations have apologized for their roles in what history calls the worst holocaust of humankind, the Atlantic Slave Trade, and racial reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the moral and legal injustices perpetrated upon African Americans; and

WHEREAS, an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help African American and white citizens confront the ghosts of their collective pasts together; and


I keep reading responses that portray this as all in the past. Discrimination has ended, all is well and African-Americans should "just get over it". The resolution itself, and President Bush, accurately state that it is not over and all is not well. Instances of discrimination and injustice are not at all rare. They might not be legal. They may not be as blatant, but they are still common and nation-wide. If you require evidence of this, you can begin by referencing HDS2000*. That's a recent study by HUD regarding housing discrimination. The core of their findings can be found in the summary. A more "reader-friendly" summary of discrimination past and present can be found by following the link below, and the 3 links within that page. This would only be a start. The vestiges of slavery are still with us. That's why this resolution is relevant to all of us.

*www.huduser.org/publications/hsgfin/phase1.html

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_06-godeeper.htm

Hondo
02-27-2007, 02:17 PM
Ok, we are either American or not. Not German American (me), or Irish American or even African American. Gee I hope I spelled that right. I would hate for the Grammar Police to come get me. If we are going to be pc then lets get it right. Dang, I forgot it doesnt include the likes of us.

Hondo

bill watson
02-27-2007, 04:01 PM
My only observation on any of this is that Southerners are definitely not inferior in the arena of improved race relations. That's a stereotype that just needs to go away. I've lived both places, deep south and up north.

Tigerreb
02-28-2007, 01:25 AM
I love the picture with the article. Buncha rich old white guys in a room, congratulating themselves on not being racists. Looks like a meeting of the Massachusetts colonization society. :p

It is like this in California too. The state has a holiday to celebrate Ceasar Chavez, and the work he did for farm laborers. ALL government employees get the day off with pay, ALL farm laborers continue to work in the fields, they do not get a day off with pay.

JIM Tebbetts