Brogan Quality?

[tompritchett]

This post is partially tongue and cheek and partially serious. To all those that are degrading the sutler brogans because of their poor quality and the fact they wear out so fast, wasn't that also a common complaint of the soldiers back then? In other words, in our quest for authenticity and "high" quality, have we adopted a standard for modern reenacting brogans that in reality did not exist back then? Or in other words, which is actually more authentic - a high quality modern brogan that is holding up very well to the stresses of reenacting or a much lower quality (but still authentic in design) brogan that is definitely not holding up to the wear and tear of reenacting? In this case, is cheaper actually better?

[GaWildcat]

HMMM interesting concept... but I can think of one caveat to that, while cheaper shorter lasting shoes and bootees maybe a more authentic impression to a degree, investment wise, higher quality longer lasting (when I can get em!) is the route Ill go in the future. Take into account that our quartermasters supply us out of our wallets, while the Army Quartermasters supplied the Boys of '61. Also taken into account, is that we march maybe (depending on whether Mainstream or P/C/H event) no more than 20miles or less a month, and some not more than maybe 5. The Originals marched that in a day, and hence shoes wore out faster, even if they weren't from shoddy, dubious, war profiteering contracters.

Boots from Mattimore, MB&S, or Fugawee while not cheap, will give longer life than boots from XYZ Sutlery, that cost ya maybe $80, and since not worn every day, will last a long time and in the end, save $$$$$$$, and these days, aint it all about the Checkbook???

[tompritchett]

Also taken into account, is that we march maybe (depending on whether Mainstream or P/C/H event) no more than 20miles or less a month, and some not more than maybe 5. The Originals marched that in a day, and hence shoes wore out faster, even if they weren't from shoddy, dubious, war profiteering contracters.

Actually, one of the comments in Hardtack & Coffee was about how some of their brogans started wearing out in just days.

Boots from Mattimore, MB&S, or Fugawee while not cheap, will give longer life than boots from XYZ Sutlery, that cost ya maybe $80, and since not worn every day, will last a long time and in the end, save $$$$$$$, and these days, aint it all about the Checkbook???

Or is it about authencity? :)

Seriously, I have no hard position on this issue but rather am throwing this out as food for thought to challenge our "box".

[Western Blue Belly]

If my shoes were issued to me, and I stood a good chance to receive replacements when needed I wouldent care if I had to draw a new pair of shoes for each event I went to. But since I have to pay for them, I will not buy a pair that will not last at least 5 years.

[RJSamp]

If my shoes were issued to me, and I stood a good chance to receive replacements when needed I wouldent care if I had to draw a new pair of shoes for each event I went to. But since I have to pay for them, I will not buy a pair that will not last at least 5 years.

Understand the modern economics and personally paying for something that the govt would have supplied. But that doesn't mean that the item is a more 'authentic' reproduction.

This discussion comes up periodically about you name the item. Dirty Billy talked about the govt. specs for a Hardee Hat beings x% shoddy and a 30 day contract warranty. If you told me that a Tim Bender hat would last all of 30 event days (1 year) I'd buy something else. The Raggedy Assed 2nd Wisconsin was called that because their poor quality 2nd issued suit (in gray, as was the first) wore out in the seat quickly.

You read the quartermaster reports and the diaries and when available this stuff was getting replaced regularly.

so when you see faded nonblack hardee hats in the ranks of , say, the AOP at Perryville, you just shake your head. Non Veteran soldiers, fresh out of the camps in Louisville, only a few weeks on the road....dusty? yes. faded? no. authentic portrayal? no.

We faced the same dilemma in designing a reproduction big belled bugle (clairon). Brass vs copper? modern thicker tubing vs thinner 1860's spec tubing. Tuneable (authentic, but not for a lowly bugle) or not. You want me to spend $350+ for an easily dented, non tuneable, out of pitch between notes instrument? No way.....but having a concert quality tuneable bugle isn't quite authentic. Overengineering.

Enlisted Frock coats are a good case in point....the few originals I've seen up close (never have touched on) appear to be a fine quality suit wool flannel. More like a modern suit flannel than a blanket. Anyone up for going out and wearing a suit in the trenches?

Me, I've generally gone for the better built, higher quality item....usually (not always) they give better service. But are they necessarily more authentic? No.

[WestTN_reb]

Personally, the best pair of brogans I've ever owned came from Fall Creek Sutlery. I bought them as seconds for $65. I wore a hole in them during the Franklin Death March, but they were 4 years old at the time. I still wear this pair of shoes, and while the hole is alot bigger, they've still got some mileage left in them.

[Phil]

Understand the modern economics and personally paying for something that the govt would have supplied. But that doesn't mean that the item is a more 'authentic' reproduction.

Exactly. Modern crappy and authentic crappy are not usually the same. Just because a shoe falls apart in a matter of days does not mean it is put together just like the shoes that fell apart in a matter of days in 1861-65.

A reproduction item may exhibit one or two features of the original (such as being worn on the foot and wearing out in a short time) but this does not qualify it as an accurate reproduction. For example, I have a Nike ballcap that began its life black, but turned a reddish brown from sun exposure and wear. There are original caps worn during the Civil War that experienced the same fading, but I wouldn't dream of calling my cap an authentic part of a Civil War impression.

RJ also has a good point in that we don't get this stuff issued to us. We have to purchase everything we use, and even an authentic reproduction that wears out in days is a poor investment for most of us.

Speaking of brogans and death marches, I'm still not sure who went on a "death march" at Franklin. I seem to remember a couple brief strolls, but I was completely confused when I returned home after the event and saw talk of a "death march" on the message boards. One of my 13-15 year old used shoes had just experienced the bottom layer of the sole coming separated in the front (again) and I got to make most of that "death march" with a floppy sole. I still don't remember anyone dying.

[RJSamp]

Franklin 'Death' March

Was the stroll from the Northern battle field back to camp ON the shoulder of the highway. For the Federals it was roughly a half mile from the trenches on the battlefield....past the farm house and yard... (water on the way).
..to the highway.

Then along the shoulder PAVEMENT (tough to walk in the slope-y side of the road), past the Super Freeway access ramp and underpass.....left turn into a nice farm house with trees, water, grass....and more blacktop.

If that was a half mile to a mile there you go.

After resting at the second farm house (I seem to recall meeting some nice people and some witty banter going back and forth between the AOP and a drop dead gorgeous Park Rangerette....we'll leave it at that but it left happy thoughts around).....there was the march through the woods, some easy hills, a power line trail, etc. then up the hill from parking back to camp.

They talked about it being 1.5 miles each way, but it certainly wasn't a straight line march and seemed like a decent trek.

Am sure it was rough on the infantry.....it was an easy trail ride compared to the 26 mile 'only one more hill' ride on the Morgan's Raid I. The 6th Ohio Cavalry had brought along the same horse I had ridden on the Morgan's Raid....Joker was (retired from active duty last year) a great horse with a lot of heart.

[toptimlrd]

Like anything, there were better quality and poorer quality during the war. Most of us have heard of the unscrupulous suppliers using cardboard soles during the war. What I look at is the item made to the standards of the period and is the materials, construction, and methods correct. In the case of shoes, I buy better quality that match those which were existant during the period. We also need to understand tat the surviving examples were likely of better quality therefore we are duplicating the better quality in our reproductions. In the case of the cheap shoes out there, they are ususally made with poor quality leather (suede in some cases), the stitching is not correct, and the pegging or stitching on the soles is also not according to quartermaster spec.

[Rob Weaver]

I wore the same pair of Fall Creek shoes from 1991 to 2005. They were re-soled twice. I finally decided I was tired of the attitude that wearing shoes a size small gave me, so I replaced them. (It's a long story.) 2 other people in our unit have worn them since. I thought cheap sutler brogans weren't supposed to last? :D

[reb64]

If my shoes were issued to me, and I stood a good chance to receive replacements when needed I wouldent care if I had to draw a new pair of shoes for each event I went to. But since I have to pay for them, I will not buy a pair that will not last at least 5 years.

I have a pair of smoothside out fugawees which are the most comfortable pair I ever had and have lasted three years now with signs for more.

[Phil]

Franklin 'Death' March

Was the stroll from the Northern battle field back to camp ON the shoulder of the highway....

I guess I just don't remember it being as rough as some others do.

[Western Blue Belly]

I have a pair of smoothside out fugawees which are the most comfortable pair I ever had and have lasted three years now with signs for more.

I own a pair of Rev. War "high low's" from Fugawee. They are comfortable and do last, but I wont buy another pair from them. I'd rather give my money in support of American craftman.

[bob 125th nysvi]

gotten off track a little here.

I think Tom while I agree that there was a lot of complaints about 'low quality' brogans during the CW, we really don't know what 'low quality' was.

Afterall those boys lived in their shoes daily. When in the field they might put in between 15-20 miles a day for days on end.

Brogans that 'only' lasted 2 months saw a lot more use than any reeanctors brogans are going to se over several years.

Also didn't the Union Quartermasters anticipate issuing 2-4 pairs of shoes a year to their troops. They didn't expect ANY brogan to last more than 6 months.

So yes I beleive the high quality boots available today are probably many times better than anythign a CW private could expect to get his hands on.

That being said I acquired my brogans from an Ebay sutler for a very reasonable price and have never ever had a problem with them. No breakage, no blisters, no nothing.

[HighPrvt]

Here's something to think about...
At the Atlanta History Center their are two pairs of shoes sitting side by side, with a huge quality margin. One are a very fine looking pair, and the other look like they wouldn't have stood one good march....

We all know there were shoddy made contract goods, but not all were of poor quality.

Authentic shoes should be constructed correctly, are the cheap sutler row shoes constructed correctly, with the correct materials?

[toptimlrd]

I wore the same pair of Fall Creek shoes from 1991 to 2005. They were re-soled twice. I finally decided I was tired of the attitude that wearing shoes a size small gave me, so I replaced them. (It's a long story.) 2 other people in our unit have worn them since. I thought cheap sutler brogans weren't supposed to last? :D

Rob,

I wouldn't list Fall Creek among the really cheap ones out there, they are more along the "standard" price range and Andy actually makes them himself as does Jim Lammers of Cedar Creek. I startd with a pair of Fall Creek as well, but mine only made it about a year for me due to the leather breaking down at the ankle. I have a somewhat strange stride which along with them getting very wet at an event caused the leather to soften too much and the heel area to become off centered from the heel of the shoe (very uncomfortable to march on). Andy did stand behind the shoes and althought they were beyond the warranty reworked them on the last but this only helped for a couple of more events before the same thing happened again. I eded up donating them to the unit loaner box and went with MB&S and have been very happy for the past couple of years.

[EasySam]

I also bought brogans from Fall Creek. Within a year I had to have new soles. It was either that or duct tape. Anyway, those shoes lasted me 10 years and they weren't just sitting in a closet during that time. They are still in good shape. The thing is, I went to Robert Serio's to pick up some boots and also got some new brogans. I didn't even realize the old brogans hurt my feet so much until I started wearing the new ones. To paraphrase a saying, "If your feet ain't happy, ain't nothing happy."

[Rob Weaver]

Rob,

I wouldn't list Fall Creek among the really cheap ones out there, they are more along the "standard" price range and Andy actually makes them himself as does Jim Lammers of Cedar Creek. I startd with a pair of Fall Creek as well, but mine only made it about a year for me due to the leather breaking down at the ankle. I have a somewhat strange stride which along with them getting very wet at an event caused the leather to soften too much and the heel area to become off centered from the heel of the shoe (very uncomfortable to march on). Andy did stand behind the shoes and althought they were beyond the warranty reworked them on the last but this only helped for a couple of more events before the same thing happened again. I eded up donating them to the unit loaner box and went with MB&S and have been very happy for the past couple of years.
My replacement pair of shoes ripped just above the left heel last year. They were less than 2 years old. Andy replaced them with new ones, even though, like yours, they were past warranty. Now that's customer service!

[toptimlrd]

My replacement pair of shoes ripped just above the left heel last year. They were less than 2 years old. Andy replaced them with new ones, even though, like yours, they were past warranty. Now that's customer service!

Andy is top drawer on service, no doubt. I just found Serio's shoes to be a bit more accurate and more comfortable.

[Pvt Schnapps]

The U. S. army provided bootees of varying degrees of quality, in huge numbers. Troops might also buy their own footwear; there are any number of examples of soldiers buying, for example, high boots to wear in winter quarters, and perhaps as many of officers forbidding the practice. There are also examples of soldiers half-soling bootees at their own expense to save the cost of entirely new ones.

It would be wrong to assume that you could get away with not taking care of your bootees, or any other article of clothing, and the Government would "give" you another. Volunteers received a clothing allowance of $3.50 a month, and everything they drew came out of that. If you drew more, it came out of your pay. Toward the end of the war the allowance went up to $4, but prices rose far more.

As for numbers issued, in the OR, Series III, Vol. 5, p. 285, we find that the U.S. government procured 6 million pairs of sewed and 2.2 million pairs of pegged bootees over the course of the war. I understand that the pre-war standard was sewed, being considered of higher quality, but by 1865, Lt. Col. J. E. Remington, Chief QM, 14 A.C., had this to say:

"I would most respectfully draw the attention of the department to the utter uselessness of sewed boots and bootees for troops on the march. From an experience of four years in the quartermnaster’s department in the field, I do not hesitate to say and give it as my firm opinion, and have no doubt that the same is shared by every quartermaster in the Western army, that the same, where troops are on the march and cannot draw new ones every two weeks, are worthless; and so well is this understood by every one in this army that it is an impossibility to issue any sewed shoes when amiy peg shoes can be procured." (ibid., p. 417)

Over the course of the war prices for bootees ranged from $2.05 to $3.24 for sewed, and $1.48 to $2.45 for pegged.

That aside, I bought my last pair from Missouri Boot & Shoe. The construction is far superior to others I've purchased. I usually take several short marches (5 miles) during the year and I like a good bootee. For some reenactments it may not be as authentic as bloody feet wrapped in rags, but it makes life easier between events.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Most repro goods, even those from "good" ("accurate") vendors, are usually heavier and more durable than originals that I've handled, particularly footwear, leatherwork, and camp equipage like knapsacks and haversacks.

I believe that there's inevitably going to be compromises in accuracy of goods for various reasons, but obviously one is that most reenactors are probably not going to be thrilled with, say, a pair of shoes that "authentically wears out on the first march". I don't know any reenactor who doesn't compromise accuracy of kit, to some extent, for products on the market today and durability.

Personally, when I had the opportunity three years ago when purchasing some new repro US Army bootees ("brogans"), I opted for the "okay-authenticity-wise but beefier" shoe by Vendor A instead of the "more-authentic but less durable" shoe by the more-authentic Vendor B. On the other hand, I've been a tad disappointed in some of the heavyweight leather gear offered by many "reputable vendors" compared to the thin-shaved leather of original specimens that I've handled.

As with all things in reenacting, ultimately the consumer decides how much he or she is willing to compromise on the products they are buying with their own money, while making (hopefully informed) decisions about the "accuracy" of their portrayal.

[FloridaBummer]

Well;
Here's my take on brogans.
To give you an idea of quality; here is what I owned and experienced with each brand I owned. Nothing terrible here just honesty.
My first pair of brogans were from Regimental Q-master. Ordered them and had them in hand rather quickly before my very first event. Over a time period of a couple of years I had no problems in comfort and fit marching from modern camp to the battle. Well, my first march of any significant distance (about 12 miles)/ campaigner event, I thought my feet where about to fall off! I was in such pain. Looking at other individuals high quality brogans, mine were a little off in construction. And unfortunatly they split on one of the sides during the long march. They did last me about 2 1/2 years.

My next pair; were from Mattimore Harness. Wow! very accurate in details and compared greatly to pictures of originals in books and originals seen in person at various musuems. Sadly, during another event I did, I was limping badly. Thank the Good Lord there was no march during this event! They were too narrow for my feet. I should have measured my foot a little better. That was my fault..:-( I would still recommend these shoes as long as you measure your feet correctly).

I ended up selling the Mattimores to another reenactor. My next pair I purchased from Jersey Skillet Licker. Thinking that I had measured my feet better, and feeling very confident I wore these brogans to another campaigner event. Well I was limping there after. These brogans were very comfortable to begin with. Right out of the box! Very impressive. However, they were a no go at this station! Still a nice set of authentic brogans but not for my 'dogs'! ;-)

Finally we come to the next pair. I contacted Missouri Boot and Shoe, because of some goading from pards in my unit, to buy a pair. I used the instructions via their website on how to properly measure my foot. To my surprise I was, a size 13 and not a size 12 like I had thought. SO the whole time I'm measuring my foot wrong! Boy did I feel like an A--!
Since I needed them in a couple of months I opted for the sewn soles. I recieved the brogans rather quickly and was pleasantly surprised by the fit and comfort level, not to mention their extremely authentic look! Wow what a great pair of shoes! No problems since then..

I've had a number of boots in my adult life. Having served in the Army for 8 years, I had many pairs some goverment issue, some private purchase, Jump boots, Jungle boots, desert boots, 'cruit boots, high speed Danners, you name it, I've pretty much had it. Not all were comfortable and durable. (I guess the Army never changes.;-) My other former hobby's like hiking and backpacking, I've had some pretty decent boots, and pretty bad ones as well.
I agree with what one of our posters said;
It all narrows down to one thing; IF your feet ain't happy, you ain't happy!
Just my .02......
Good luck with your purchase.
Kindest Regards;

[Kevin O'Beirne]

I guess it all depends on how one defines "quality".

[Guy Gane III]

I did a film in 2005 called "Fields of Freedom" (playing at the Gateway Theater off Rt 15, Gettysburg), I had a pair of Fall Creek shoes. They were worn-in, having bought them for the season before (approx 5 events). I used them continuously for a week. Uppers separated completely midway through a scene.

Thankfully, we had the next day off. I shot up to Gburg from Boonesboro, MD and went around town trying to find someone that had my size in a quality brogan. I went to 3 different shops and nothing in my size. So I made my way out of town and I came to Dirty Billy's and remembering that he had shoes in stock, I stopped in. Thankfully he had my size and I bought them up.

Two weeks later they had fallen apart. :evil: Went back traded them in and got another pair. Same thing, :evil: so now they sit and wait for a Confederate impression.:-?

Back to town once more and I found a pair of Robert Land shoes and they are still the best ones I have ever owned.

Prior to the film I had gone through about 4 pairs of shoes since 1996.

Quality is paramount. I wore out 3 pairs of shoes within three weeks. To me, if I have to go through $400+ before I can finish out a month and a half shoot or a reenactment season, I should have my head examined. As mentioned before, we bear the brunt of paying for something that was issued.

MB&S, Robert Land and Mattimore are the forerunners of the bootee market. Nothing compares to that feeling of coming home and not having your feet throb/ache/blister.

And knowing is half the battle....

[WestTN_reb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJSamp
Franklin 'Death' March

Was the stroll from the Northern battle field back to camp ON the shoulder of the highway....


I guess I just don't remember it being as rough as some others do.

I marched with the Trans-Mississippi Brigade at Franklin. There was a gentleman from Alabama with us who carried one of those little ankle pedometers (you know, that measure mileage). Anyway, counting the march to the staging area Friday night, the Saturday morning tactical, the march to Rippa Villa, marching to camp to get ammo (we were out!), and then the main assault on the Federal works, he clocked 14.2 miles.

[bob 125th nysvi]

One thing I did when ordering my brogans was to move up a half size in order to double sock.

This goes back to my ROTC days when my Sargent (a Vietnam vet) said next to my rifle my feet were my most important asset and double socking is always the way to go.

Since I have wide feet moving up worked great and I always double sock. Never had a blister or problem yet.

But then I also do a lot of walking around the farm so I've learned what does and doesn't work.

Many times it isn't the quality of the shoe that matters but the quality of yoru feet, how the shoe fits, how well it is broken in, and how often you are on your feet.

It's pretty hard to go from a 5 day a week desk job to a 15 mile hike.