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MStuart
02-21-2007, 01:43 PM
Armed Man Who Mistook Porn Sounds For Rape Charged

(AP) OCONOMOWOC, Wis. A man says he broke into an apartment with a cavalry sword because he thought he heard a woman being raped, but the sound actually was from a pornographic movie his upstairs neighbor was watching.

"Now I feel stupid," said James Van Iveren, who has been charged in the case. "This really is nothing, nothing but a mistake."

According to a criminal complaint, the neighbor told police that Van Iveren pounded on the door and kicked it open without warning Feb. 12, damaging the frame and lock.

"Where is she?" Van Iveren demanded, thrusting the sword at the neighbor, the complaint said. "Where is she?"

The neighbor told police Van Iveren became increasingly aggressive as he repeated the question, insisting that he had heard a woman being raped. The complaint said that, with the sword pointed at him, the neighbor led Van Iveren throughout the apartment, opening closet doors to prove he was alone.

The neighbor later played for police the part of the DVD he believed Van Iveren heard downstairs.

Van Iveren, 39, of Oconomowoc, was charged with criminal trespass, criminal damage and disorderly conduct, all while using a dangerous weapon, and is due in court March 5. Together, the misdemeanor counts carry a maximum sentence of 33 months in jail.

Van Iveren said Tuesday that he heard a woman "screaming for help," grabbed the sword, bounded up the stairs, kicked in the apartment door and confronted the man who lived there.

"I intended to hold it behind my back and knock. But I froze and instead, what happened happened," he told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Contesting his neighbor's account, Van Iveren said he didn't look anywhere in the apartment except the front room, and that he never threatened the neighbor with the sword.

"I had the sword extended. But that was all," he said.

Van Iveren, who lives with his mother in the downstairs apartment, said he did not call police when he heard the noises because he does not have a telephone. He said he barely knew the upstairs tenant.

Police seized Van Iveren's sword, which he said was a family heirloom.
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Who says chivalry is dead?

Mark

flattop32355
02-21-2007, 04:53 PM
No Good Deed Ever Goes Unpunished.

bulletsponge
02-21-2007, 05:32 PM
They should have charged the moron with the loud porn with public indecency or something like that.

tompritchett
02-21-2007, 08:18 PM
They should have charged the moron with the loud porn with public indecency or something like that.

I am also troubled by the fact that this moron was getting off on a porn movie where a woman is supposedly getting raped. While enjoyment of standard porn is one thing, enjoyment of kiddie porn or porn involving what would be considered a criminal act is another. In both cases you have to seriously wonder whether or not the person enjoying the act has the potential to become a sexual predator.

sbl
02-21-2007, 10:12 PM
While we're passing judgment on the movie watcher......

"..Van Iveren, 39,.... who lives with his mother in the downstairs apartment...."

flattop32355
02-22-2007, 02:20 AM
While we're passing judgment on the movie watcher......

"..Van Iveren, 39,.... who lives with his mother in the downstairs apartment...."

Soooo....It's okay to watch "adult" videos, but not to live with your mother?

Have you noticed? "Adult" entertainment is quite juvenile?

sbl
02-22-2007, 06:24 AM
Soooo....It's okay to watch "adult" videos, but not to live with your mother?

Both lifestyles can be really sad for a grown up man.

Have you noticed? "Adult" entertainment is quite juvenile?

Yes. My teenaged son once saw some by mistake and I had to assure him that sex wasn't that gross.

On the other hand many of us pursue juvenile entertainment that we tell ourselves and others is adult. ;)

hanktrent
02-22-2007, 08:59 AM
I am also troubled by the fact that this moron was getting off on a porn movie where a woman is supposedly getting raped. While enjoyment of standard porn is one thing, enjoyment of kiddie porn or porn involving what would be considered a criminal act is another. In both cases you have to seriously wonder whether or not the person enjoying the act has the potential to become a sexual predator.

That seems a pretty big leap, on a discussion board where the participants spend their weekends acting out the fantasy of pretending to kill people.

The problem is, the guy was watching porn, and porno-watchers are easy targets to hate. What if he'd been watching a regular movie where a damsel in distress was crying out? I'm not into violent porn, child porn, or anything like that, but I've had enough run-ins with reenactors who can't distinguish fantasy from reality, that my sympathies lie with the guy who was hurting no one, and suddenly got his door kicked in and a weapon in his face.

Based on the news story alone, I'd say the sword fellow is the more dangerous one. The porn guy, as far as we know, kept his fantasy as a fantasy. The sword guy apparently was trying to go on some sort of sword-hero-rescue mission, for real, by threatening a real stranger with a real weapon, when the stranger hadn't threatened him or anyone. And he apparently couldn't even predict or control his own behavior: "I intended to hold it behind my back and knock. But I froze and instead, what happened happened."

I'd much rather live in a world where people watch porn and know it's not real--even porn I find disgusting--than a world where out-of-control vigilantes grab weapons and invade others' homes for real.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

MStuart
02-22-2007, 09:32 AM
I was hoping we wouldn't delve into the pro's and con's of porn and what we do in our own homes............... :-( I found the humor in the rescue via cavalry sword........us being reenactors and all.

Mark

tompritchett
02-22-2007, 09:38 AM
I'd much rather live in a world where people watch porn and know it's not real--even porn I find disgusting--than a world where out-of-control vigilantes grab weapons and invade others' homes for real.

Point taken. However, what would you do if you seriously thought a woman was being raped in the apartment above you and you did not have access to a phone? IMHO, there is a big difference between a vigilante exacting justice outside the legal system and a concerned citizen trying to help a woman in apparent distress. The fact that the "rescuer" was armed does not automatically mean that he was intending to use that weapon to exact vigilante justice either. Frankly, if I saw a woman being raped in the street (a situation where I knew for a fact that a rescue was needed), I would carry a weapon with me for defensive purposes in case the rapist turned on me for interfering. And yes, in that situation, I would go out and attempt to stop the rape, after calling 911. Why, because I would hope that someone would do that for my wife if she was ever in that situation. And remember, depending upon the town and neighborhood, it can take precious time for the proper authorities to arrive. Since Mark works in law enforcement, it might be interesting to hear his take on this question.

tompritchett
02-22-2007, 09:47 AM
I was hoping we wouldn't delve into the pro's and con's of porn and what we do in our own homes...............

While I agree and, actually, strongly believe that what one does in their own homes is his or her own business, I do become concerned about individuals when their primary source of sexual gratification comes from fantasies involving either sexual encounters with underage children or sexual encounters involving the physically violent domination of unwilling partners. To me it is similar to small children who start getting increased gratification from the toturing and killing of small animals and pets. I think that you understand where I am coming from.

MStuart
02-22-2007, 10:31 AM
One has to look at the "totality of the circumstances" to get a good read on this particular caper. There's so many "ifs, ands, or buts" that could be presented as to make this a month-long thread.

On one hand, you have a man who thinks a woman is being assaulted and acts in person (having no phone). On the other, you have a guy who is in his own home, by himself, and watching TV, and next thing you know, someone is breaking his door down and threatening him with a saber.

Rescuer A says he heard a woman screaming, Resident B says he was watching TV and no one but him was there. When things are sorted out, it seems that Resident B has done nothing wrong, yet, according to him, his domicile has been broken into by Rescuer A who, although he says he had good intentions, still, according to the written law of the state (leaving the "spirit" of the law out of the equation for the time being) he accomplished an unlawful act. Remembering that this is all we know right now from the news article posted. Who is right and who is wrong?

Throw in the concepts of "reasonable expectation of privacy" guaranteed by our constitution, along with what a "reasonable person" can/should/would do if faced with these same circumstances.

What would you do?

Offhand and as an aside, I'll assume that this caper, and the arrest, wasn't acted on "on the spot" and was presented to a district judge for approval/disapproval of charges since the incident happened on 2/12, and the article hit the wires yesterday or shortly before.

Mark - Professor of Streetology 101, School of the Street

hanktrent
02-22-2007, 10:39 AM
Mark's right, it is funny that he used a sword. And I think that's the whole point, and why we're even talking about it. If he'd showed up with a handgun and shoved it in the man's face, it wouldn't be a big deal.

But it's funny because it's so--illogical. I'm looking around our house right now, and if I felt the need to go out and attack somebody, the last thing I'd grab would be my wife's grandfather's 19th century National Guard sword, especially indoors, because you need so much room to swing. Even without a gun, most homes have kitchen knives. Not to mention, for last-ditch self defense, make-shift clubs like bottles.

Only in movie fantasies are swords truly effective weapons against a bad guy probably armed with a handgun. It's funny, but in a pathetic sort of way.

Personally, I think the most amazing thing is the incredible restraint the porn guy showed. A crazy-looking armed man is kicking in his door for no discernable reason, and he decides to answer the door apparently unarmed, in a non-threatening way, and talk the guy down. There are plenty of people who would have answered the door with gunfire, and might be legally justified in doing so, against an aggressive armed intruder breaking into their home.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Linda Trent
02-22-2007, 11:18 AM
What I'm wondering about is, what if the man who was watching the porn had a gun or some other weapon? When the door kicking, saber swinging man suddenly burst into his home would he have been justified in killing him?

I mean think about it. Here he is watching television in the safety of his own home. Some enraged man comes, bangs on his door and kicks it in, and enters into his home swinging a saber, and then demands knowing where she is, forcing him to prove himself alone in the apartment. Sounds like a genuine lunatic and I'd worry about my health and safety. It'd be a classic case of self-defense.

To me, the guy's lucky that he walked away with his own life. Since it was aparently an apartment building, or at least in a very large town why didn't he get a neighbor to call 911 or at least go with him as a witness to the scene? This whole event could have turned out a lot worse than it did.

Linda

Rob Weaver
02-22-2007, 03:53 PM
... implement is the telephone. While charging upstairs armed with anything dangerous sounds dashing and romantic, before going at all, he needed to call 911. I can't picture what he honestly thought he was going to dowith that sword. They're a lot harder to handle than they appear. You're also not going to hurt someone "just a little" with one if you do. And we wonder why we have so many safety regs when we go to events...

Milliron
02-23-2007, 12:21 AM
While I agree and, actually, strongly believe that what one does in their own homes is his or her own business, I do become concerned about individuals when their primary source of sexual gratification comes from fantasies involving either sexual encounters with underage children or sexual encounters involving the physically violent domination of unwilling partners. To me it is similar to small children who start getting increased gratification from the toturing and killing of small animals and pets. I think that you understand where I am coming from.

While it would certainly be noble indeed to prevent a woman from being raped, I would point out the following:

1. Nobody said Porno Man was watching a movie about a woman being raped, only that Sword Man thought that's what he heard.

2. Porno movies can, I suppose, SOUND like that's what's going on in the movie without it being so.

3. That's what the cops are for--I'd say Sword Man is lucky Porno Man didn't ventilate him with whatever he may have had handy--I highly doubt he would have even been charged under those circumstances

jthlmnn
02-23-2007, 03:25 PM
For a more up-to-date summary that includes a few more details, see the following commentary from columnist Jim Stingl of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel.


http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=569437

reb64
02-23-2007, 05:40 PM
Castle laws protect you from bodily harm in your own home. The police should have been called first. the moron was the guy with the sword.

bill watson
02-23-2007, 07:13 PM
Seems like a reasonable judge might find a reasonable solution, like restitution, an apology and he promises to buy a phone. Who doesn't have a phone?

When do we find out this guy is some kind of reenactor, I wonder? I mean, look at the beard: Musketeer. And no phone. He's living the experience, a good chivalric deed just waiting to explode somewhere.

It would make a better story, of course, if he were a time traveler, forced to cope with this century after growing up as a teutonic knight or something .... hmm. I bet somebody has already written it, though.