Common or uncommon acceptance

[Trooper Graham]

ref: "volunteers wearing service stripes in a 1862 scenerio".

Although I agree with Sgt Todd on other things in his post on the "dismounted cavalry" thread, the above I ask, is it because it was not common that it is a NO-NO?
It's well known that prior service, especially experience veterans fighting on the plains and in the Mexican War these men were sought after at the outbreak of the CW. I would think that the above would consitute the wearing of service stripes. But, other noticeable attributes would have to come into play such as the age of the reenactor wearing the service stripe/stripes. The CW was not just a young man's war like they have been. It took all ages, grey beards and all. ;)

[Lee Ragan]

My primary unit does a late antibellum unit on the Texas frontier. (Co. K, 1st Regt. U.S. Infantry who were stationed at Ft. Lancaster, Texas.) Some of the guys wear enlistments stripes and included are red trimed stripes for service during the Mexican War. Since service stripes were authorized in the 1854 uniform regs for dress uniforms, they are only worn on the dress frock coat. One of our men wears 5 hashmarks to indicate over 25 years in the "old" Army and Mexican War service, but he's a "lifer private". Those were fairly common in the regulars.
Now if regulars can wear service-in-war stripes, I don't see why a veteran serving in a volunteer regiment during the war couldn't do the same. Some men served many years in the old regular Army, got out and went back in state volunteer units during the war. I will admit that I've not seen any research concerning numbers, but it did happen.
I do know that wearing of hashmarks was generally restricted to the dress frock coat, but they were known to be worn on the fatigue blouse (sack coat), after the war. It will be interesting to see what kind of researched info this question stirs up on this forum.

[Trooper Graham]

One must also remember that congress authorized President Polk to call up 50,000 men to serve in vol units. A total of 73,532 that served in the mexican War were in volunteer state units. I would love to know how many of those put the uniform back on to rejoin their states regt for service in the CW.

[RJSamp]

Don't know where I got the numbers from....but I tell the kids 16,000 soldiers and 8000 veterans served in combat during the ACW.... 3 were veterans of the War of 1812 (John Burns being one, General Scott not being one). None of the Veterans were from the Alamo battle between Texas and Mexico. Millions of volunteers...188,000 colored troops....

Would love to have the correct numbers!

[Lee Ragan]

Don't know where I got the numbers from....but I tell the kids 16,000 soldiers and 8000 veterans served in combat during the ACW.... 3 were veterans of the War of 1812 (John Burns being one, General Scott not being one). None of the Veterans were from the Alamo battle between Texas and Mexico. Millions of volunteers...188,000 colored troops....

Would love to have the correct numbers!
I disagree sir about General Winfield Scott. He WAS a veteran of the War of 1812 and was breveted Brig. General in March 1814. He participated in several campaigns and is noted as the victor at the Battle of Chippewa.

[Trooper Graham]

Grant, McClellan, Burnside, Stonewall Jackson, Longstreet, Meade, Lee, Bragg, Hardee, Johnston, Kearny, Sherman and Sturgis just to name a few occifers who served in the Mexican War.

[Rob Weaver]

Winfield Scott was a distinguished hero of the War of 1812! It's truly a shame that he didn't retire after the Mexican War and enjoy his well-earned fame. The lasting image of him is the fat, dottering old man, replaced by the dashing Little Mac.
You can add to those numbers 150,000 Germans. Was it Gen. Sykes who remarked, "After 1862 there were no regulars?"

[Dave Myrick]

ref: "volunteers wearing service stripes in a 1862 scenerio".

Although I agree with Sgt Todd on other things in his post on the "dismounted cavalry" thread, the above I ask, is it because it was not common that it is a NO-NO?
It's well known that prior service, especially experience veterans fighting on the plains and in the Mexican War these men were sought after at the outbreak of the CW. I would think that the above would consitute the wearing of service stripes. But, other noticeable attributes would have to come into play such as the age of the reenactor wearing the service stripe/stripes. The CW was not just a young man's war like they have been. It took all ages, grey beards and all. ;)

It would become a NO NO when it is done arbitrarily or on a widespread basis. Provide documentation to justify that your grey beards took to the field in the volunteer cavalry regiments and back up your impression with fact and no one can take an exception. If you are are 1st Sgt Soandso of the 2nd Wherever Cavalry and he wore his service stripes and they were at the Battle of 2nd Manassas and you are representing him and his regiment there, then it would be perfectly fine to wear them.
Dave

[Trooper Graham]

Provide documentation to justify that your grey beards took to the field in the volunteer cavalry regiments

Dave

Time for some more of Dave Gink's photographs. ;) :p

[Dave Myrick]

Time for some more of Dave Gink's photographs. ;) :p

Just keep in mind one or two photographs alone is not incontrivertable proof of anything common place or widespread. The photo of the COnfederate trooper with the leopardskin pants comes to mind. Yes it cannot be denied that he had them but how common are they and are they worthy of replication at events?
Dave

[Trooper Graham]

Just keep in mind one or two photographs alone is not incontrivertable proof of anything common place or widespread.


Dave

Considering the amount of prior service veterans vs non-prior service and the fact that not everyone had a photo taken of them in 1862 even one photo would be proof that it did exist. I would really like to know where in the Reenactor Bible it says, if it wasn't commom it's not allowed. I would think it would depend on an individual's individual impression. I would think it more common sense to first ask the person about his impression before condemning him out of ingnorance.

[tompritchett]

Considering the amount of prior service veterans vs non-prior service and the fact that not everyone had a photo taken of them in 1862 even one photo would be proof that it did exist. I would really like to know where in the Reenactor Bible it says, if it wasn't commom it's not allowed. I would think it would depend on an individual's individual impression. I would think it more common sense to first ask the person about his impression before condemning him out of ingnorance.

Because of my age and because I had a prior military background before becoming a reenactor, I like to consider myself a Mexican War veteran in my background impression even though I do not wear service stripes. It just adds to my general overall military bearing, especially at early war events. But I have not researched to see if any particular individual in the original company H was such a veteran as it is not a major part of my impression but rather an reason for my being in the war at my age.

[Dave Myrick]

Considering the amount of prior service veterans vs non-prior service and the fact that not everyone had a photo taken of them in 1862 even one photo would be proof that it did exist. I would really like to know where in the Reenactor Bible it says, if it wasn't commom it's not allowed. I would think it would depend on an individual's individual impression. I would think it more common sense to first ask the person about his impression before condemning him out of ingnorance.

How many "prior service veterans" could there have been? What numbers are you speaking of? There were 78,718 men total that served in the Mexican War. Of those, 17,435 were casualties leaving a total of 61,283 war veteran survivors. There were 3 regular mounted regiments in 1846 which on paper would have had a maximum strength of 1200 men each. What was the survival ratio from those regiments? That doesnt take into account the numbers lost in the intervening years and conflicts with native Americans. If you allow a loss of 200 men from each regiment that leaves a total of 3000 veteran mounted troops elligable to wear red trimmed service stripes. Now factor in how many of those troops had southern loyalties and the number drops dramatically.
In between the wars, the government raised an additional 3 mounted regiments. How many of the surviving veterans of the Mex War were lured into those regiments? Again the number of available veterans dwindles. Don't forget that the Army did not disband the Regular mounted regiments at the onset of the Civil War, nor did it allow men to walk away from their enlistments to serve in volunteer cav units.
In late `61 the Army began to organize and accept volunteer cavalry regiments and they showed up in the field in `62 so extrapolating the numbers at best you would have but a handful of men both willing and capable of serving in the field as an enlisted man and authroized to wear any service stripes. I'm not saying that it didn't happen but not often enough to be warrant anything more than a situational and very specific impression confined to a particular event.
Dave

[Trooper Graham]

Because of my age and because I had a prior military background before becoming a reenactor,


I like to consider myself a Mexican War veteran in my background impression even though I do not wear service stripes.


It just adds to my general overall military bearing, especially at early war events.
.


As you already know Tom your above words mirrors my 3rd Illinois impression but I do wear service stripes and I do so by combining 1st person and 3rd person into a second person. Since this impression is an individual impression and involves no one else it does not or rather should not bother anyone. I must add the service stripes are only on my dress jacket and not my campaign jacket.

[Dave Myrick]

As you already know Tom your above words mirrors my 3rd Illinois impression but I do wear service stripes and I do so by combining 1st person and 3rd person into a second person. Since this impression is an individual impression and involves no one else it does not or rather should not bother anyone. I must add the service stripes are only on my dress jacket and not my campaign jacket.

There was no differentiation between dress and campaign uniforms until very much later in history.
Dave

[Trooper Graham]

How many "prior service veterans" could there have been? What numbers are you speaking of? There were 78,718 men total that served in the Mexican War. Of those, 17,435 were casualties leaving a total of 61,283 war veteran survivors. There were 3 regular mounted regiments in 1846 which on paper would have had a maximum strength of 1200 men each. What was the survival ratio from those regiments? That doesnt take into account the numbers lost in the intervening years and conflicts with native Americans. If you allow a loss of 200 men from each regiment that leaves a total of 3000 veteran mounted troops elligable to wear red trimmed service stripes. Now factor in how many of those troops had southern loyalties and the number drops dramatically.
In between the wars, the government raised an additional 3 mounted regiments. How many of the surviving veterans of the Mex War were lured into those regiments? Again the number of available veterans dwindles. Don't forget that the Army did not disband the Regular mounted regiments at the onset of the Civil War, nor did it allow men to walk away from their enlistments to serve in volunteer cav units.
In late `61 the Army began to organize and accept volunteer cavalry regiments and they showed up in the field in `62 so extrapolating the numbers at best you would have but a handful of men both willing and capable of serving in the field as an enlisted man and authroized to wear any service stripes. I'm not saying that it didn't happen but not often enough to be warrant anything more than a situational and very specific impression confined to a particular event.
Dave

Your talking more federal than Vols. What makes you think that 'once an infantryman always an infantryman'? Illinois provided six infantry regiments for the Mexican War and no cavalry so there was no chance having a horse under you unles you went fed and who in there right mind would want to go fed when in the vols once your minimal time is up your gone or when the war is over your gone? I believe it was in 1854 that the wear of service stripes was authorized only on your dress uniform. Who in the Vols had a dress uniform. All through history there is documented proof men not only changed branches but changed services.

When your saying " a very specific impression confined to a particular event" are today very specified events allowing only those units originally in history to participate. This is part of the authenticity of the period.

[deletion -THP]

[Trooper Graham]

There was no differentiation between dress and campaign uniforms until very much later in history.
Dave

Under General Order number 3, 1858 the new 'sack coat' issued a year earlier was to replace the troopers second shell jacket issue. It is upon this coat service stripes would not been worn. The shell jacket was still considered to be the dress/parade/campaign jacket of wear and the wear of service stripes upon but we're talking federal not state. Although some states followed standard fed regs (Illinois did) many states created their own style for Vol regts and issue requirements.

[tompritchett]

Moderator hat: Dave and Sam, both of you clam down and wait at least one hour before responding to each others posts. Each of you have hit the line and your posts would warrant editting or deletion if they had not already done their damage. Some still might get deleted as I review them a second time.

Reenactor hat: First, Sam, Dave was not making it an Us vs. Them issue but rather one of research. Dave, Sam was right there were documented examples of men changing services during the war, especially from infantry to cavalry as the result of wounds suffered that prevented the individual from making the long marches. One example was William Fletcher of the 4rth Texas. Granted they were not common but they did occur. Also, if you reread Sam's reply to me, you will see that his wearing of service stripes is not a common part of his impression at reenactments but is more associated with what I am assuming are his Living History activities. As long, he qualifies his impression as not being all that common, what is wrong in letting the public know that some older CW soldiers might have been veterans of the Mexican-American War?

[Trooper Graham]

Moderator hat: Dave and Sam, both of you clam down and wait at least one hour before responding to each others posts. Each of you have hit the line and your posts would warrant editting or deletion if they had not already done their damage. Some still might get deleted as I review them a second time.




Tom, this has been going on awhile. It gets to me every time when some people in the hobby thinks no unit, scenerio or impression should exist outside their own realm and I have found that it exist only in the realm of Authentic Campaigners. To me they might be the most authentic diehards in the hobby but still can be such a pain in the arse for all others.

[tompritchett]

Tom, this has been going on awhile. It gets to me every time when some people in the hobby thinks no unit, scenerio or impression should exist outside their own realm and I have found that it exist only in the realm of Authentic Campaigners. To me they might be the most authentic diehards in the hobby but still can be such a pain in the arse for all others.

Yes, it has been going on for a long time but it has been going on from both sides. Regardless, knee-jerk reactions do not resolve the issue and can often only serve to further entrench the other's opinions. To me, it sometimes seemed that you and Dave were talking past each other not bothering to reread and fully understand what each was saying before responding. Actually the two of you may not be as far apart as you both think you are.

[Trooper Graham]

Actually the two of you may not be as far apart as you both think you are.

I don't know about that Tom. I like to think or try to be as authentic as the next guy but I don't make it a point to rain on anothers parade. I find it rude and I believe this is the core between Dave and I sparring. I have never admolished another for their farbness, I just walk away and feel sorry for them either for not caring or for out right stupidity. Different strokes for different folks I guess or rather live and let live would be more appropiate in this hobby.