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Jeffrey Cohen
12-20-2006, 12:01 PM
Here's the thread:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/296584_cannon20.html?source=mypi

sbl
12-20-2006, 12:19 PM
Snohomish? Funny they don't look Snohomish!

This looks like a great town to from...as soon as you can.

huntdaw
12-20-2006, 12:23 PM
Nasty looking wound!

In my opinion, it doesn't say much for a community that will ostracize a kid and his family for being an accident victim like this.

AZReenactor
12-20-2006, 02:27 PM
Nasty looking wound!

In my opinion, it doesn't say much for a community that will ostracize a kid and his family for being an accident victim like this.
How much you want to bet the cannon wis poorly maintained, the round overcharged, or that thy used wet newspaper or someother asinine wadding in the cannon?

Blank firing cannons just don't explode for no reason.

31stWisconsin
12-20-2006, 04:04 PM
I'm thinking that students building a cannon in a school metal shop is asking for trouble.

toptimlrd
12-20-2006, 04:41 PM
The response from the community is absolutely sickening. The entire town should be ashamed of themselves and I hope their lack of compassion brings heavy media exposure and embarrasement for everyone in that town. I hope they find each and every person that made such stupid threats and arrest them for said threats.

To the young man and his family I offer my prayers and best of wishes.

Trooper Graham
12-20-2006, 05:40 PM
I'm thinking that students building a cannon in a school metal shop is asking for trouble.


BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

TheQM
12-20-2006, 06:15 PM
"Mack had the cannon X-rayed earlier this year. Fred Langer, an attorney representing the family, said those results showed a stress fracture in the metal."

And, they kept using this thing that was made in metal shop? You've got to be kidding!

Rob Weaver
12-20-2006, 06:30 PM
The tragedy of this accident is only exceeded by the lack of caution which might have prevented it, and the lack of compassion which help heal it.

indguard
12-20-2006, 09:28 PM
... all ya had to do was mention it was connected to football and it would have explained a whole realm of stupidity.

Sports should be REMOVED from ALL schools. It does NOTHING for the student, it teaches them nothing, and it takes money away from things that are worthwhile.

Sports is such a sad waste of time, money, and effort.

Jim of the SRR
12-20-2006, 09:54 PM
... all ya had to do was mention it was connected to football and it would have explained a whole realm of stupidity.

Sports should be REMOVED from ALL schools. It does NOTHING for the student, it teaches them nothing, and it takes money away from things that are worthwhile.

Sports is such a sad waste of time, money, and effort.

This is such a close-minded, broad-brush statement, it is just wrong in too many ways!

Jim Butler

flattop32355
12-20-2006, 09:57 PM
I'd be curious as to just how the old cannon "gave out" that this one replaced.

As to sports in schools being useless, I'll have to respectfully disagree, so long as they are kept in perspective.

Trooper Graham
12-20-2006, 10:45 PM
... all ya had to do was mention it was connected to football and it would have explained a whole realm of stupidity.

Sports should be REMOVED from ALL schools. It does NOTHING for the student, it teaches them nothing, and it takes money away from things that are worthwhile.

Sports is such a sad waste of time, money, and effort.

That would involve no more basketball scholarships and demonstrations and riots would follow.:rolleyes: That would result in uneducated pro basketball players.

MStuart
12-20-2006, 11:15 PM
Are you telling me that college athletes don't devote the majority of their time to studies? (Rhetorical, wiseacre question, no answer needed)

Mark

1stWiscTrooper
12-20-2006, 11:47 PM
I know this is getting off topic, but I just can't let this go without comment on it.

To the comments that sports give you absolutly nothing, are a waste of time, and should be gotten rid of, that can't be any farther from the truth. To say that obviously shows me the person making the comment has never taken part in high school or college athletics.

Athletics teaches you so many life skills that will come in handy long after you, in my case, leave the football field or wrestling mat. Athletics teaches you to be responsible for your actions. It teaches you to be prompt and ontime. In football if you are late for practice or a team meeting, you run for it. It teaches you how to stand there and take an a** chewing from your coach, all the while standing there saying "Yes coach, I was wrong, it wont happen again", a skill that will come in handy later in life dealing with bosses. Football teaches you respect. Our head football coach in high school would make running backs run a mile the day after the game if when they scored they dropped the ball to the ground instead of handing it to the ref.

Athletics gives you mental toughness. It teaches you that you can push yourself physically a lot farther than your mind is telling you.

These are just a few of the things that athletics can give you.

Dan Chmelar

indguard
12-21-2006, 12:51 AM
That would involve no more basketball scholarships

Yes, nor SHOULD there be scholarships for sports.... ANY sports It is NOT an area of study worthy of a scholarship and does NOTHING to advance the country, the sciences, the arts, or anything else.

Sports teaches NOTHING that couldn't and shouldn't better be learned elsewhere. Sports for kids after school is fine for exercise and fun. But "professional" is not a term that should be associated with such wastes of time. It is absolute nonsense.

The amount of time and money spent on sports is lamentable and schools should be ashamed of themselves for shorting other studies to waste money and emphasis on useless sports.

And the biggest waste of time, even bigger than the fetid "pro" sports in this country, is the gutwrenchingly boring Olympics.

Of course, there are a LOT of Americans brainwashed into imagining that sports is somehow good and useful. Its very common that people have been fooled to waste their time and money that way.

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 01:47 AM
.




Athletics teaches you so many life skills that will come in handy long after you, in my case,

Athletics teaches you to be responsible for your actions.

It teaches you to be prompt

It teaches you how to stand there and take an a** chewing from your coach,

Football teaches you respect.


Athletics gives you mental toughness. It teaches you that you can push yourself physically a lot farther than your mind is telling you.


Dan Chmelar


So does the army but unfortunetly a soldier doesn't get paid millions of dollars for dribbling a basketball even though the educational level is higher in the military.

indguard
12-21-2006, 03:12 AM
By the way, this is hardly a "cannon" story. This thing was basically a homemade thing. It bears little relationship to a real cannon, civil war or otherwise.

Forquer
12-21-2006, 07:48 AM
By the way, this is hardly a "cannon" story. This thing was basically a homemade thing. It bears little relationship to a real cannon, civil war or otherwise.

Mr. Huston -

If someone has a homemade piece fashioned in the same manner as this one that they bring to CW events (and they ARE out there), and reading this article posted in this forum makes them think twice about what they're doing, then this was space well-used.

FYI, among the earliest cannons were those that were simply made up of long iron bars that were banded together. While they may hardly resemble that which we know today as cannon, they are cannon nonetheless.

If it:

1) Can fire a large projectile.
2) Is crew served.

It's a cannon.

The reaction of numerous community members is very disheartening. More's the shame upon them.

As to your other rant, I will simply say bollocks. Sport, while certainly overemphasized, does build character and provide lessons on how to deal with life. Also, if you took sports out of the schools, many of these same kids would have no level of physical fitness whatsoever, thus increasing our national girth.

Sounds like someone was always the last one picked for dodgeball and has sour grapes.

YOS,

Rob Weaver
12-21-2006, 08:09 AM
At the advanced old age of 45, I'd like to chime in on the sports arguement. My family of origin was very academic and bookish and looked down on sports as plebian and those who played them as barely evolved. As a result, although as a child I was a magnificent scholar and musician, I was overweight, out of shape and lacking the tools to relieve the stress which I encountered in school and music competitions. My family also suffers from heart disease, diabetes and other weight/activity related health issues. It took the army to make me get in shape and appreciate physical activity. At this point, I maintain my health at the same standard I had to when in that august institution. It would have been a positive addition had I been introduced to sport in my childhood and played something, at any level. No, this isn't sour grapes; it's intended as a cautionary tale.
And to pull us once again into the Civil War, or at least back to the 19th century, remember that it was the Duke of Wellington himself who remarked that "The battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton." Here endeth my catechism.

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 08:35 AM
it was the Duke of Wellington himself who remarked that "The battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eaton." Here endeth my catechism.


is that were the famous british square originated? I always thought it was that defense that won that battle. :rolleyes:

31stWisconsin
12-21-2006, 09:44 AM
Sports teach kids valuable things like work ethic and pride. I bet if you asked a group of students, over half would tell you that there best teacher and motivator in life was a coach.

I see nothing work with college sports. I know some of you are intensely jealous that adults are getting scholarships and can barely pass entry level classes. I don't mind it, because it gives me school pride and identity. There is no other feeling than game day. Sports is just as important as music or any creative process. At a high school level it is a vital aspect of one's education and life. At a college level it is a matter of pride and identity.

jda3rd
12-21-2006, 10:23 AM
There is FAR TOO MUCH emphasis placed on ball sports/team sports in America (usually to the detriment of academics), and I believe there is too little interest in sports that call on an individual to excell, to compete against himself and others, in sports that don't involve a ball of some sort. In ball sports/team sports, the individual is subject to the whole, with one or two "star players" whom everyone, from the others players on the team, to the cheerleaders, the band, the alumni, the town, must cater to. The individual is suppressed, except for these "stars". We make people billionaires, just because they can bounce a (insert expletive of choice here) ball! And look at what's his name, that just got fired from Alabama because he can't beat Auburn. He's walking away with more money than most of us will every see, vastly more than the academic faculty will ever see, and for what?

I can't bring myself to admire a so-called sport that so glorifies the physical over the intellecual, the team (the collective) over the individual (the person).

We create false hopes in young boys who dream of being quarterback. Too often skill and ability have little to do with who attains that exalted position. A classic example of some being more equal than others.

Track and field, shooting sports, equestrian sports, any sport wherein men and women compete individually, on an equal footing, is looked down on and so must take a back seat to the big three humbugs of Football, Basketball, Baseball.

It doesn't surprise me that the young man who hoped to serve his country as a US Marine, admittedly a team, but which grooms the individual for service also, is being hounded out of the community by the sports fans.

A friend of mine recently told me he was glad his son was involved in Boy Scouts instead of sports. He's learning a lot more from Scouting than he would from sports. Another reason he's glad of Scouting? He's not having to associate with what he calls the "athletic supporters" who get in fights at ball parks, who tell their kids that sports is more important than anything, who tell them that teachers are less important than coaches.

Football? It's a false god that many must cling to, from the cradle to the grave, because they aren't willing or able to think as a person, as an individual. So let them live in their cookie cutter collectives, their subdivisions, with their little leagues, their peewee teams, their cheerleader squads, their neighborhood associations and covenants that tell them what they can have in their yards and what they can't. Let them STAY there. I'll continue to be my own man, not a sports fan.

Frank Brower
Bangor, Alabama

Pete K
12-21-2006, 11:21 AM
And all the local communities could raise was 200 dollars? I like living in this provincal area of western PA we raise thousands for sick and injured children. The accident is really the fault of a lack of adult supervision and caution in my eyes.

MStuart
12-21-2006, 11:41 AM
More true than hypothetical:

College Football Coach: $1 Million

College Professor: $60K

MLB minimum salary is $200+K working 3 hours per day x 162

Salary for soldier stationed in Iraq is $25K (if they're lucky) working 24/7 365

Something out of whack there.....Food for thought.......

Mark

Just mad 'cause I can't throw a curve-ball, or a tight spiral, or skate well, or drive with Tiger, or slam dunk Mess

tompritchett
12-21-2006, 12:18 PM
Sports is such a sad waste of time, money, and effort.

There is much truth in the arguments on both sides, especially in regards to the over emphasis on football and basketball in many high schools in certain part of the country and in Division I colleges. However, sports, like the Army, sports can have great benefits when kept within the proper balance of life's priorities. It can help develop character for all the reasons described below, but when out of balance it can destroy character by teaching that, when you are a "sports star" cheating" is acceptable, you will not be held accountable for your actions (dependent on the school) and some people should get preferential treatment in all aspects of their school life strictly because of athletic abililites. There are plently examples of both character building and character destroying programs at both the college level, especially in Division I schools, and at the high school level.

The other benefit that sports can share with the military is that many times it may be the only way that many individuals will be able to afford to go to college, especially at the rate over the last decade or two that college costs have been rising faster than the general cost of living and the income rates of many families. It is up to the individual athelete to determine the degree that he will take advantage of the opportunity given to him and to keep his head on the ground regarding his future after college athletics. Remember, the vast majority of students who get a college education via sports scholarships, do not go on to play at the professional level but instead return home with the most valuable degree they can ever earn in terms of potential for future earnings. Whether we like it or not, this, or the military, may be the only hopes that many American youths ever have of getting a college degree.

tompritchett
12-21-2006, 12:33 PM
More true than hypothetical:

College Football Coach: $1 Million

College Professor: $60K

MLB minimum salary is $200+K working 3 hours per day x 162

Salary for soldier stationed in Iraq is $25K (if they're lucky) working 24/7 365

Something out of whack there.....Food for thought.......

Mark

Just mad 'cause I can't throw a curve-ball, or a tight spiral, or skate well, or drive with Tiger, or slam dunk Mess


Major reason that I no longer get excited about professional sports and college football in general, even though I was a strong MLB (Reds) and pro football (Browns and then Bengals) fan growing up. When I saw the Big Red machine dismantled all because of money issues, I realized that it was all about money and nothing about fan loyality (Green Bay Packers one of the few exceptions). For me the final straw was when I saw a utility, non-starting infielder win a million dollar contract under arbitration. As for football, I now will only follow teams because of certain athletes and programs that I respect for their overall abilities and character. For example, I used to follow the Montana 49'ers and now follow the Peyton Colts, but by now means am I even close to anything considered rabid. College basketball, I follow University of Kentucky because I grew up following it and because, 1) as far as I know, it runs a clean recruiting program, and 2) its coach has no problem suspending starters for infractions of his rules. However, I am not proud for the way that many Kentucky fans treat him because he does not have the level of success on the court that they would like for him to have. Major league hockey - I laughed when the American pro's got that fannies kicked in the Olympics trying to be the typical thugs while the other teams skated circles around them and used actual teamwork.

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 12:33 PM
. Whether we like it or not, this, or the military, may be the only hopes that many American youths ever have of getting a college degree.


In the military getting a college degree is a 100% sure thing and the military will pay half of it. It's changed since I was in. During that tiime the whole thing was payed for or I had ten years after discharge for uncle sam to pay it all. Now he pays 50% or rather he matches what the service member puts in the college fund. The only draw back...premature death. Just think, if the draft was brought back just how many people would have a degree would be walking around in civvys with a degree?

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 12:39 PM
More true than hypothetical:

College Football Coach: $1 Million

College Professor: $60K

MLB minimum salary is $200+K working 3 hours per day x 162

Salary for soldier stationed in Iraq is $25K (if they're lucky) working 24/7 365

Something out of whack there.....Food for thought.......

Mark

Just mad 'cause I can't throw a curve-ball, or a tight spiral, or skate well, or drive with Tiger, or slam dunk Mess

but rumour control has it that when you get your horse you'll be attending equinecollege. Any truth in that?:p :p :p

tompritchett
12-21-2006, 12:41 PM
The only draw back...premature death.

Or loss of limbs or other such disabling injury. Just one of those little details that must be also be taken into account if your reason for joining the military is only to get money for college.

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 01:12 PM
Or loss of limbs or other such disabling injury. Just one of those little details that must be also be taken into account if your reason for joining the military is only to get money for college.

$2393.00 a month tax free for loss of limb and you'd be surprised how many do join for that college reason. The G I Bill is the best thing to come out of WWII for the veterans and has continued for all that followed.

flattop32355
12-21-2006, 01:14 PM
Of course, there are a LOT of Americans brainwashed into imagining that sports is somehow good and useful. Its very common that people have been fooled to waste their time and money that way.

Of course, some people say the same thing about reenacting the Civil War. Or any number of other activities.

MStuart
12-21-2006, 02:02 PM
but rumour control has it that when you get your horse you'll be attending equinecollege. Any truth in that?:p :p :p

Only if I can get a "student loan" :-(

Mark

Graduate of the Community College of the Air Force, Class of '90

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 02:10 PM
Only if I can get a "student loan" :-(

Mark

Graduate of the Community College of the Air Force, Class of '90


Somehow I saw that answer coming. :D

Sam

University of South Vietnam School of Warfare

Austin-Peay State University

Lewis and Clark Community College

Alumni for Idiot Free America

indguard
12-21-2006, 02:19 PM
...even though I was a strong MLB (Reds)

Ever see the Reds play a Crosley Field? I did and it was a great ball park. My Grandfather used to take me all the time.

1stWiscTrooper
12-21-2006, 02:19 PM
"There is FAR TOO MUCH emphasis placed on ball sports/team sports in America (usually to the detriment of academics)," posted by jda3rd

Personally this is way off base from what I have been expirenceing this past year, being a Freshman at a Division III college and playing football. In our program academics come first. I can think of many times where starters have come late to practice because they had a lab that ran late, or even weren't able to come to practice at all because of a class. Coach was constantly telling us class comes first. All incoming freshman have mandatory study tables twice a week where we would go to the library for 2 hours and work on homework while being under loose watch of a coach. We had academic meetings everyother week where we had to come talk with coaches about how we are doing in class. We had an academic playbook that we had to write every grade on every assignment, paper, test, ect... to track our grades.

How can you say all of these things are a detriment to our academics???

Dan Chmelar
"Playing D-3 football and proud of it mess"

MStuart
12-21-2006, 03:22 PM
Ever see the Reds play a Crosley Field? I did and it was a great ball park. My Grandfather used to take me all the time.

Would the Pirates at Forbes Field qualify? Maz and Gene Alley at 2nd and short respectively, Maury Wills at 3rd. What an infield!! Pay a guy a couple of bucks to park in his driveway, then walk to the park. The Univ. of Pgh school of law sits there now. Only a portion of the left field wall remains, with homeplate moved a bit to make way for "progess". Three Rivers Stadium was the answer to all prayers. Now, it's gone. Geez, I feel old......sigh.......

Mark

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 03:40 PM
Geez, I feel old......sigh.......

Mark

Your're joking right? I remember watching the St Louis Browns play at Sportmans Park..........and I'm still a Browns fan. That's the reason I don't drink Budwieser. It was Auggie Busch who run the Browns out of town. Browns were in St Louis first and Sportsman Park belonged to the Browns. Busch came into town and made Falstaff and Stag brewery close down and ran the Browns out of town.
Now Budwieser is everywhere even in Ireland. Can you imagine that Bud Lite in irish pubs and...they drink the grule.:-? :-? :-?

jda3rd
12-21-2006, 04:52 PM
I applaud your athletic instructors, then, as long as they insist that academics come first. And as long as they make the alumni happy, they will be able to continue in that vein.

Unfortunately, I've seen enough of college and high school level athletics (and again, let me point to ball-oriented team sports), wherein boosters, alumni, coaches, whoever, suggested to academic instructors that "Johnny's been working hard, and he's really come a long way. We appreciate all the "help" you can give him. He's such an asset to the TEAM." I won't generalize and say that happens everywhere, but I'll say that for it to happen otherwise is the exception rather than the rule.

And here again, the emphasis is on team sports. The more individualized competitions I mentioned before get little respect and less funding, yet are as much or more challenging and certainly as beneficial.

There is a place for athletics in public and higher education settings, and yes, that is a way for some to go on to higher education that might not be able to afford it otherwise. But have you ever noticed that when a school system is in financial trouble, it's the arts, not the athletics, that get cut? The head coaches, usually the highest paid person at a school (sometimes more than the principal, certainly more than class room instructors) are the last to lose a job, as long as they have a winning record. I know someone will point out that the school systems pay coaches according to the same scale that other teachers are paid on, but boosters and alumni, quarterback clubs, even civic groups chip in to make sure Coach gets paid. Why won't they put money into books, band instruments, microscopes?

The news story about the unfortunate young man injured by the "cannon" accident (y'all remember him? Let's not forget he's the one that got all this started) pointed out that many in the community have threatened him, and efforts to raise money for his benefit have only garnered $200, and that from other communities. Because he is now seen as a threat to the Holy, the Sacred Traditions of FOOTBALL, he is to be ostracized from the community. All Hail QB, All Hail Football, and God Save Our Coach.

Frank

Rob Weaver
12-21-2006, 05:48 PM
is that were the famous british square originated? I always thought it was that defense that won that battle. :rolleyes:
What Wellington had in mind was that in playing ball (rugby, I believe) the young officer candidates developed the ability to follow orders, the teamwork and the perseverence that characterized the "thin red line." By the way, Teddy Roosevelt observed that "Sports are the closest thing Americans have to organized religion." A friend of mine has observed, with scholarly interest, that the enthusiasm reenactors have for their units is remarkably similar to sports fans and their teams.

Trooper Graham
12-21-2006, 06:26 PM
What Wellington had in mind was that in playing ball (rugby, I believe) the young officer candidates developed the ability to follow orders, the teamwork and the perseverence that characterized the "thin red line."




By the way, Teddy Roosevelt observed that "Sports are the closest thing Americans have to organized religion." A friend of mine has observed, with scholarly interest, that the enthusiasm reenactors have for their units is remarkably similar to sports fans and their teams.

I don't think any of the men of the 93rd Highland Regt of Foote (Sutherland Highlanders) even heard of Eaton.

Sports during Teddy Roosevelt's time was the same as "win one for the Gipper" not for a bonus by winning the Supper Bowl.

Sports is fine, it does build character and team work but the almighty dollar is what's on the minds today not only on the athlete but the school too.

toptimlrd
12-21-2006, 06:40 PM
Okay, I'll throw my $.02 worth in about sports since that seems to have hijacked this thread. Sports when kept in perspective are definitely a good thing. Detriment to the arts? One of my fondest memories of High School was being in the Marching Band which existed primarily to be the entertainment at the football 1/2 time. Now our football team was absolutely the worst in the state (I believe it still holds the record for consecutive losses), but on Friday nights, the stands were packed with students and partents alike enjoying the diversion the game provided. It provided a social outlet that the community enjoyed and brought the community together for an evening of fun. On Monday it was back to the books. Players at my high school were not given special treatment on grades and often were suspended from the team when their GPA dropped below the mandatory minimum. I was on the Varsity Basketball team as well operating in a support role (read manager) as I was never good enough to make the team but loved the game anyway. I was not a jock or that atheletic but I was treated as part of the team (still have the Varsity Letters to prove it) and did I mention our basketball team was state champs my senior year and runner up my junior year? At least three of our players went on to Pro careers either here in the US or in Europe, and they all also graduated from college with real degrees. These were some of the least "jock minded" guys I knew; they treated everyone with respect around the school and carried themselves like gentlemen. I was also in the JROTC and commander of the Drill Team (also classified as a sport since we went to competitions). One thing I learned through sports (and any kind of team for that matter) is leadership (both what makes a good leader and what makes a bad one). There is also a certain sense of accomplishment when you win (and lessons to be learned in losing graciously). I too have seen where sports are taken to the "win at all costs" extreme which is where we start to lose the balance (my little league coach was the type to only play those who could win and benched the rest of us).

My son also spent two years in his High School band (dropped due to a new band director changing practices to times he had conflicts that could not be resolved), is on the JROTC Drill Team, etc (he's also an Eagle Scout not to mention a reenactor). Once again, the teams at his school are average as far as talent but the games are part of the social experience of being in high school. The students don't "worship" these guys as off the field they are their friends and classmates. The band and the JROTC have both raised money on the backs of the sports programs by selling pom poms, concessions, etc. at the games so they also benefit from the sports program.

Finally, my son is looking into the military academies as his first choice of colleges and one thing they all have in common is a VERY HIGH percentage of cadets who were varsity lettermen in High School (over 80% if memory serves my correctly) and playing sports is MANDATORY once you are there. You see, the competitive spirit developed through competition is needed in developing the necessary tools to succeed in life these days. Those who rise to the top often display a higher competitive spirit than most. Now I wish I had been better in atheletics but that was my lot in life, I don't resent those with the God given talents I don't have, but I have my own talents that I do capitalize on. I agree that when the balance between sports and other activities is swung too far in the sports direction there is a problem, but I think that a properly balanced approach absolutely has to include some sort of competitive feature.

Soap box now open and I hope we can move back to this sad story of the cadet who was seriously injured through a freak accident and his community's absolutely abhorrent response to him.

csuppelsa
12-21-2006, 07:32 PM
Major league hockey - I laughed when the American pro's got that fannies kicked in the Olympics trying to be the typical thugs while the other teams skated circles around them and used actual teamwork.

Glad to see I'm not alone:cool:

tompritchett
12-21-2006, 10:02 PM
Unfortunately, I've seen enough of college and high school level athletics (and again, let me point to ball-oriented team sports), wherein boosters, alumni, coaches, whoever, suggested to academic instructors that "Johnny's been working hard, and he's really come a long way. We appreciate all the "help" you can give him. He's such an asset to the TEAM." I won't generalize and say that happens everywhere, but I'll say that for it to happen otherwise is the exception rather than the rule.

I might agree with you on the high school side in many parts of the country and at many Division I collegiate programs. However, I also think that Dan Chmelar's experiences are more the norm at the Division II and lower schools.

tompritchett
12-21-2006, 10:13 PM
you'd be surprised how many do join for that college reason.

Actually I would not. I went through ROTC to help pay for college and my National Guard pay was a significant source of income as I was going through graduate school. Of course we had the Cold War back then rather than a two live wars where a current combat soldier might have two rotations in a typical enlistment. Even some Guard units are looking at their second overseas tours of duty now and I know of at least Marine reserve unit that has at least three tours in Iraq.

jda2dn
12-22-2006, 12:37 AM
Kids made a cannon. WHAT SCHOOL SYSTEMS ALLOWS KIDS TO MAKE AND FIRE A CANNON!? Of course an accident happend! I'm very sorry someone was hurt and harrassing him and his family is completely wrong. I also find it ridiculous that people have a problem with sports in schools. Can anyone post some factual evidence and proof of schools putting athletics before academics? I've read plenty of accusations, but have seen no proof.

SgtTodd
12-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Athletics and Sports are not the same thing.

Sport is all about money - period. The school making money, the player making money, the owner making money - and money that is astronomically beyond anything sports gives back.

I've seen the local school system spend MILLIONS on fields, equipment, uniforms, etc, etc, etc - while, for example, the marching band only gets the money it begs for it via fund-raisers and from it's members to pay for uniforms, instruments, and travel. The team's travel is covered - the band's is not.

An inordinant amount of money goes into sport in our education system because it provides a quick return - a fast buck. You don't get thousands of people buying $50 tickets to see a spelling bee, science fair, or band tournament - week after week.

tompritchett
12-22-2006, 12:12 PM
Can anyone post some factual evidence and proof of schools putting athletics before academics? I've read plenty of accusations, but have seen no proof.

First, listen to Allen Iverson or other pro-basketball players in an interview sometime. Second, look at the statistics of how many Division I football and basketball players actually graduate with degrees, especially the stars. Obviously some programs have better statistics than others - those I respect. I am sure that many, who have better memories than mine (that d*mn CRS syndrone) and follow professional sports closer than I, can give us names of pro-football players who ended their careers with documented reading and writing skills less than that of a typcial 8th grader. Third, here in Easton, the school board was authorizing millions of dollars for a new high school athletic field complex while classes were being held in trailers. Only after most of the athletic field complex was finished, except for the many, many cost overruns, did expansion of the actual school buildings commense. I am sure that others will chime in with more examples.

However, before you get all riled up, remember I do agree that athletics can be a positive factor when placed in proper balance with all other school and life activities. I went to such a high school and ended up lettering in two sports neither of which I was good enough to pursue at the collegiate level.

tompritchett
12-22-2006, 12:16 PM
Sport is all about money - period.

Period exclamation mark. Seem to remember something about money being the root of all evil. During the 140th cycle, we saw what it did to reenacting. (Have to get some CW discussion back into this thread somewhere :))

tompritchett
12-22-2006, 12:23 PM
Dr. Fraud

Hudson

Jim Brockler

Moderator hat: Gentlemen, given the many disputes the two of you have had in the past, you should know each others' names by now. Let's can the snide insults of deliberately messing up the others' name. While you may not agree with the other person's viewpoint, you can and will be respectful in disagreeing and making your counter-arguments. Afterall, you are guests at Mr. Szabo's table and the host, the Provost, can always excuse you from the table for a fixed time period if your behavior so warrants.

Jim of the SRR
12-22-2006, 02:59 PM
Athletics and Sports are not the same thing.

Sport is all about money - period. The school making money, the player making money, the owner making money - and money that is astronomically beyond anything sports gives back.

I've seen the local school system spend MILLIONS on fields, equipment, uniforms, etc, etc, etc - while, for example, the marching band only gets the money it begs for it via fund-raisers and from it's members to pay for uniforms, instruments, and travel. The team's travel is covered - the band's is not.

An inordinant amount of money goes into sport in our education system because it provides a quick return - a fast buck. You don't get thousands of people buying $50 tickets to see a spelling bee, science fair, or band tournament - week after week.

Nearly every aspect in life is "all about the money." Why should athletics be any different.

Athletics also have booster clubs, alumi associations, concessions stands, ticket sales, etc to help support themselves. If you don't agree with supporting sports then you need to disconnect your cable TV, don't go to sporting events, stop watching them on TV, stop buying the peripheral gear, etc. Is it out of hand?...Is it crazy? Sure.... but, you could make the argument that there are parallels to it in many aspects of life.

I wish folks got this upset over how badly our public education system sucks and how OVERALL it is a total failure and a big waste of money. It is similair recently to people getting mad about Harry Potter books in the school library, but they don't complain when the kids who graduate can't even read or comprehend books.

At least the athletics programs can say they produce quality athletes. The public schools can hardly tout they are producing record numbers of scholars!

Jim Butler

indguard
12-22-2006, 09:12 PM
don't go to sporting events, stop watching them on TV

I did that in 1975! Haven't gone, watched, paid for any sports since.

modelf85
12-22-2006, 09:37 PM
I revised my statements after I cooled off.

flattop32355
12-22-2006, 10:28 PM
The public schools can hardly tout they are producing record numbers of scholars!

Hmmmm. I was not aware that the goal of public schools was to produce scholars. I thought it was to produce successful bankers, plumbers, teachers, firemen, nurses, auto salesmen, journalists, homemakers, doctors, construction workers,.......

Frenchie
12-23-2006, 12:36 AM
I think it was either Marx or Engels who said that religion was the opiate of the masses. If true, then I think high school, college and professional sports have largely replaced religion in many places.

That poor kid's hometown has a lot to be ashamed of.

dustyswb
12-26-2006, 04:20 PM
There are more paint rollers on this thread than any Home Depot I've ever been in.

Shame too.

NC5thcav
12-26-2006, 11:32 PM
And hardly any of them have anything to do with the Civil War.

Trooper Graham
12-27-2006, 06:44 PM
On 60 Minutes tonight the topic is sports in schools and how winning is everything. Might be interesting to see considering where this thread has gone.

tompritchett
12-27-2006, 09:30 PM
For the longest time I have debated whether or not to move this thread down to the Whine Cellar once the sports issue took over the thread. I was hoping that might be more discussion about the cannon safety itself or the thread would just die out. However, now that Trooper Graham has resurrected the sports in school theme, I will be making the move now.

Trooper Graham
12-27-2006, 09:43 PM
On 60 Minutes tonight the topic is sports in schools and how winning is everything. Might be interesting to see considering where this thread has gone.

I change the above to read "where this thread is 'going' ". :D :D

Mojo1842
12-27-2006, 10:40 PM
Now Budwieser is everywhere even in Ireland. Can you imagine that Bud Lite in irish pubs and...they drink the grule.:-? :-? :-?
Thats just heresy.

tompritchett
12-28-2006, 08:13 AM
Ever see the Reds play a Crosley Field? I did and it was a great ball park.

Yes, and I can remember attending games at Riverfront the first year that it opened. Also, we used to listen to every broadcast game on the radio. Unfortunately, I can not remember the name to the beer that sponsored their broadcasts before I believe they picked up Pabst. I believe that it started with an H.

indguard
12-28-2006, 09:36 AM
It was Hudepol, wasn't it?

I remember the song... Hudepol, Huuuudepol Beer, satisfying taste... etc., etc.

They also had a little German cartoon guy who said:

Vas you ever in Zinzinati?

indguard
12-28-2006, 09:37 AM
I also went to Riverfront in its first years. Saw the Bengals and the Reds there. Ah, the Big Red Machine reminds me of childhood.

tompritchett
12-28-2006, 02:13 PM
Saw the Bengals and the Reds there. Ah, the Big Red Machine reminds me of childhood.

Never saw the Bengals live but I followed them even longer than I did the Reds. I do remember one playoff game when it was the bottom of the ninth, 2 outs, and Perez and Bench coming up. I was away at High School and all my classmates were gloating because they thought that there was no way that the Reds could come back. I warned them that, given their power, it was possible that Perez and Bench could hit back to back home runs to win it all. Ends up I was right because that was exactly what they did and the Reds won the game. The game was somewhere between 1968 and 1971 and I believe it may have been against the Pirates but definitely am not sure on the latter point.

flattop32355
12-28-2006, 03:30 PM
It was Hudepol, wasn't it?
I remember the song... Hudepol, Huuuudepol Beer, satisfying taste... etc., etc.
They also had a little German cartoon guy who said:
Vas you ever in Zinzinati?

As I recall, Wiedemann was also a sponsor, possibly before Hudepol.

indguard
12-28-2006, 09:13 PM
Yeah, Weidemann! That one was a sponsor, too. (Maybe that jingle I'm remembering was Weidemann's, not Hudie's)

Do etither of those beers even exist anymore?

I left Cincinnati in 1978.

flattop32355
12-28-2006, 09:55 PM
Yeah, Weidemann! That one was a sponsor, too. (Maybe that jingle I'm remembering was Weidemann's, not Hudie's)

Do etither of those beers even exist anymore?

Found this on the net (search = Wiedemann beer): You'd think with my last name, I could have spelled the stupid beer's name right!

Kentucky Breweries History: Wiedemann Brewing Company

Wiedemann opened shortly before 1870, as the John Butcher Brewery and then the Butcher & Wiedemann Jefferson Street Brewery. The Wiedemann breweries primary brands were Wiedemann Bohemian Special Beer and Royal Amber Beer.

Wiedemann merged with G. Heileman Brewing Company, in 1967 and was operated as Wiedemann Division, G. Heileman Brewing Company, Inc. The primary brands were Wiedemann Fine Beer, Royal Amber Beer, Blatz Beer/Cream Ale and other assorted Heileman labels. The brewery was closed in 1983.

Pittsburgh Brewing Company may now be brewing the Wiedemann brand.

MStuart
12-28-2006, 10:16 PM
Pittsburgh Brewing Company may now be brewing the Wiedemann brand.

Which may also soon be a thing of the past as Pittsburgh Brewing is embroiled in bankruptcy procedures/protection, etc. It's future is uncertain, at least in Pittsburgh.

Mark

tompritchett
12-28-2006, 11:44 PM
Wiedemann merged with G. Heileman Brewing Company, in 1967 and was operated as Wiedemann Division, G. Heileman Brewing Company, Inc.

That is the right time frame because I do remember both names. Good lord, we are remembering things from almost 40 years ago.

Trooper Graham
12-29-2006, 12:00 AM
That is the right time frame because I do remember both names. Good lord, we are remembering things from almost 40 years ago.


:D :D :D You young wippersnappers. I still remember getting my grog out of a barrel. ;)

tompritchett
12-29-2006, 12:35 AM
I still remember getting my grog out of a barrel.

Is that by laying underneath the tap with your mouth open (the only way to drink from a barrel)? :D

indguard
12-29-2006, 04:01 AM
Good lord, we are remembering things from almost 40 years ago.
__________________

...what...as opposed to remembering things from 140 years ago like we USUALLY do??

tompritchett
12-29-2006, 10:44 AM
We discuss things that occurred 140 years ago - things that we did not personally experience. Remembering implies that we are recalling things that we personally experienced. Since none of us were alive 140 years ago (unless you are into reincarnation :) ), I consider discussing versus remembering to be considerably different.

Trooper Graham
12-29-2006, 11:08 AM
Since none of us were alive 140 years ago

.

:-? :-? :-? Are you sure about that? I wasn't joking about the grog. ;)

tompritchett
12-29-2006, 11:30 AM
Just because you are indeed older than I am does not mean that you can corner the "Old Fart" market. Besides there is always Bill Rodman, a true "Old Fart" if there ever was one. :)

Mojo1842
12-29-2006, 10:40 PM
They also had a little German cartoon guy who said:

Vas you ever in Zinzinati?

Actually Burger had the little cartoon guy...theres a place not far from me that has old copies of the Enquirer varnished on the tops of the tables...lotsa Burger ads...

indguard
12-30-2006, 01:12 AM
We discuss things that occurred 140 years ago - things that we did not personally experience. Remembering implies that we are recalling things that we personally experienced. Since none of us were alive 140 years ago (unless you are into reincarnation ), I consider discussing versus remembering to be considerably different.

I see our chumminess is now over. I guess it was uncomfortable for me, too.

indguard
12-30-2006, 01:13 AM
Actually Burger had the little cartoon guy

Are you sure? Well, it was a long time ago, you are probably right.

tompritchett
12-30-2006, 09:17 AM
I see our chumminess is now over. I guess it was uncomfortable for me, too.

Where does clarifying a point have anything to do with personal feelings one way or another? You asked how I believed our remembering things 40 years ago differed from our normal discussions of events 140 years ago and I answered. Believe it or not, when people respond to you in discussions or even disagree with you, it often has nothing to do with you personally. The only time that you do get under my skin is when you openly question my objectivity as a moderator, and even that I let go of because it is just not worth holding any negative feelings over. If I did hold on to them, I would be just allowing you to indirectly control my emotions. I learned a long time ago, but only after considerable cost, that it not healthy to let others have that degree of control over my well-being.

tompritchett
12-30-2006, 09:22 AM
Some sports humor that I received in my email this morning -

Putting Up With Jocks

The basketball coach stormed into the university president's office and demanded a raise right then and there.

"Please," protested the college President, "you already make more than the entire History department."

"Yeah, maybe so, but you don't know what I have to put up with," the coach blustered. "Look."

He went out into the hall and grabbed a jock who was jogging down the hallway. "Run over to my office and see if I'm there," he ordered.

Twenty minutes later the jock returned, sweaty and out of breath.

"You're not there, sir," he reported.

"Oh, I see what you mean," conceded the President, scratching his head. "I would have phoned."

modelf85
08-05-2007, 01:57 PM
Sorry to ressurect, but wrestling pretty much is the best sport there is. Sorry guys.

Sgt_Pepper
08-05-2007, 06:18 PM
Sorry to resurrect, but wrestling pretty much is the best sport there is. Sorry guys.

Bocce. No one can call himself truly civilized who does not play Bocce. ;)

7thNJcoA
08-09-2007, 07:53 PM
what really gets me is them describing it as a "combat" wound I was wounded in the leg by a blast in combat. what that kid has is a scratch compared to a ral combat injury shame on this reporter for making a stupid boy scout look like a poor helpless victim!!! HES AN IDIOT THEY KNEW THEY PIPE BOMB WAS GONA GO!

Ocaliman
08-09-2007, 08:41 PM
what really gets me is them describing it as a "combat" wound I was wounded in the leg by a blast in combat. what that kid has is a scratch compared to a ral combat injury shame on this reporter for making a stupid boy scout look like a poor helpless victim!!! HES AN IDIOT THEY KNEW THEY PIPE BOMB WAS GONA GO!

Was the injury you suffered a possible head injury? With all due respect, I think anytime you have to put someones leg back together with a titanium rod, and have to do multiple skin grafts, it qualifies for a bit more than a "scratch".

Also, do you think this kid looked at the X-Rays of the cannon and saw the stress fractures? I tend to believe that he is neither a QC/QA inspector or a metalurgist. What he is, is a kid who put his faith in his ROTC commander who determined that the piece was safe to shoot. And the fact that no one at the school seemed to have a problem with firing a metal shop project, made by the kids who think giving "swirlies" to the nerdy kids is quality entertainment, or who spend lunch in the parking lot smoking weed, when it had a known problem (metal fatigue). But I guess, since it was "tradition" to fire that piece of crap, and it exploded, the townies should blame this kid for the explosion. I guess it excuses the hate mail and threats, because you say it was his fault and he is an idiot.

Sir, I'm glad that my son, who is currently serving in Iraq isn't under your command and control with an attitude like yours about this young man who IS THE VICTIM.

MBond057
08-09-2007, 08:57 PM
Drew,

As a combat veteran with a Bronze Star and Purple Heart it hurts me to think a fellow veteran would talk about a young American teenager in such a disrespectful manner that was injured in an accident. Teenage males are impulsive and sometimes donít think through their actions. Havenít we all done something when we were younger that could have ended tragically? What ever happen to being compassionate, especially for a child? There is no doubt mistakes were made but where was the adult supervision?

I agree with Ben your comments are not from a leader I would want to follow into combat or have as a roll model for my child.

Sgt_Pepper
08-10-2007, 01:40 AM
Gentlemen, I recommend a moment of cool thinking before continuing in this vein. I do not mean to prevent the conversation from going in this direction, but to prevent things from getting out of hand. Your cooperation is appreciated.

jthlmnn
08-10-2007, 09:00 AM
By law, as necessitated by nature, adults who supervise activities involving minors are the responsible parties. When I am in a classroom, it is my responsibility to do my best to ensure the safety of the students entrusted to my care. When I officiate high school and youth baseball or fastpitch softball games, I am required to inspect the equipment (helmets and bats) and obtain assurance from the coaches that everyone is properly and safely equipped. I am charged with preventing, where possible, dangerous situations from arising and dealing with dangerous situations (lightning, field conditions, etc.) and conduct when they do arise. Coaches are likewise responsible for the safety and conduct of their players. The adults in this case, from the school board, to the principal, to the ROTC officer, to the townsfolk, appear to have failed to recognize and carry out their responsibilities: before, during and after the fact. That many adults appear to be more concerned with the preservation of their custom (it does not qualify as a tradition in my book) than the safety and well being of their children is, in my opinion, criminal. It is my hope that that all the adult supervisors of this activity and the governing bodies that permitted it, are criminally charged AND sued in civil court.