PDA

View Full Version : Enlisted Shabraque Pad?



7thhorsesoldier
11-20-2011, 10:15 AM
Hello,

I just got a new 59' Mac because the old one was an original and too narrow. Anyways I went for a little trail ride and when I got home I noticed some of the rigging had rubbed away his hair. Anymore and it might of rubbed him raw. I bought a blue Shabraque pad with gold trim for him and now the problems gone. This will work for trail riding but In a year or two i'm getting into reenacting and I don't know if these are accurate for an enlisted man? As far as I can tell only Officer's had these. Is there something else I can do to fix this? I have never seen this problem before.

RJSamp
11-20-2011, 10:26 AM
I use two saddle blankets and haven't had this issue....

Tom Craig
11-22-2011, 01:07 PM
Can you provide a little more detail about where the rubbing was happening? You mention the rigging, so I am assuming that you mean below the saddle skirts, but then you say that a saddle pad fixed the problem, so I'm a little confused.

The first thing obviously is to figure out what is going on, and why and where the saddle is rubbing. Using two blankets can certainly be done, but if you have a systemic fit issue with the saddle, it would be akin to buying a pair of shoes two sizes too big, stuffing them with insoles and living with the results. You wouldn't do it to yourself, so don't do it to your horse.

That said, two blankets can certainly be done either to provide extra padding (not to make up for poor saddle fit) or to limit the dead weight on your horse. Federal troopers commonly placed their sleeping blanket under the saddle rather than on the cantle as it provided extra cushion, cut down the dead weight, and folding is quicker than rolling.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

7thhorsesoldier
11-22-2011, 10:04 PM
Sorry for not explaining very well. Yes the saddle fits him perfectly BUT the latigo rubs the hair away. So I bought a shabraque pad to put over my saddle pad and it(the shabraque pad) comes down far enough so that the latigo isn't on his skin there for doesn't rub. He is a fat roly poly right now so maybe when he get's into shape I won't have this problem anymore. Thank you two for helping me with my questions. Let me know if your still confused.

Terry Crowder
11-24-2011, 01:43 AM
Have had this problem come up many times. It sounds as if the two overgirth straps (what you called Latigo) may be to low on your horse. Happens when you ride a stout horse. The rings where the straps come together can be shortened if they are to low on his sid which will cause the problem. A simple removal of the stitching , cut an inch or two of both being careful to keep the correct front to back positions so as not to move the girth to far forward or to far back. Restitch it and you should be good.
Terry Crowder

Terry Crowder
11-24-2011, 01:45 AM
Forgot to mention that it is really a good idea to use a pad with a period correct blanket over it or two blankets. And yes, The shabrach would not be correct for an enlisted trooper... Good luck.
Terry

Tom Craig
11-25-2011, 10:46 AM
Okay, now I am REALLY confused! LOL!

If you have an even remotely accurate reproduction of a '59 Mac, the D rings on the saddle should be padded by the saddle skirts. Below that should be the billet straps that run down to the girth. If the girth is rubbing, you have a girth issue that no saddle pad is going to fix. It would be either improper placement of the girth/too tight girthing/some stiff patch or other mechanical problem with the girth.

Terry mentions an overgirth, which I take to mean a surcingle, but I think he means something else. If it's the surcingle, then that's similar to the girth.

Like I said, I'm confused on what you're trying to describe. Has the horse been worked much? I ask because sometimes I've found that animals that haven't done too much get rubs in places because, like a city person who tries to become a farmer, they need to toughen up a bit.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

7thhorsesoldier
11-25-2011, 11:39 PM
Sorry for confusing everyone!!! Let me get some pictures. It's not the d's or the girth that's rubbing, it's the billet. My 59' should be pretty accurate being that it's made by Doug Kidd. He has been worked all summer except for the last three weeks. Also I was thinking that maybe the new leather needs to be broke in because it's kinda stiff. Anyways hope I didn't further confuse anyone LOL! You'll see clearly whats wrong when you see the pic's.

TheQM
11-26-2011, 12:34 AM
Stupid question from a non-horse person. How many sizes of the origional 59' MaCellan saddle were issued and would the largest size fit most modern horses? I find it sort of funny that both people and horses are fatter today! :)

sbeneke1
11-26-2011, 12:53 AM
TheQM, good question. I also have a question that I have yet to find an answer too. Were there any large bar Mac's issued to teamsters or Artillery pieces? In modern reenacting times this is all I see used on field moving artillery.

RJSamp
11-26-2011, 10:49 AM
TheQM, good question. I also have a question that I have yet to find an answer too. Were there any large bar Mac's issued to teamsters or Artillery pieces? In modern reenacting times this is all I see used on field moving artillery.

so that's what you call a Gator or truck?? :-)

RJSamp
11-26-2011, 10:58 AM
Stupid question from a non-horse person. How many sizes of the origional 59' MaCellan saddle were issued and would the largest size fit most modern horses? I find it sort of funny that both people and horses are fatter today! :)

Start here: http://9thvirginia.com/fitting.html

Period bits are narrower than modern....a sign that today's horses are bigger (not necessarily fatter) as the bits are made to fit a horse's mouth\bone structure\head.

Dave Myrick
11-26-2011, 06:22 PM
Whether or not a period tree and/or/ bit will your modern horse depends entirely on the horse. Then just as now different breeds of horses came in different sizes. You might just find that a period bit and tree will work just fine on a 15 hand 800 pound horse. However, being that the majority of reenactors are larger than troopers of the period, the proclivity of large bodied horses and the need to use larger horses to bear our increased mass, period sized gear most likely will not fit.

Not to knock Doug's work but his saddles are not authentic. They are possibly the closest massed produced and readily available out there but not even close to authentic. Don't take my word for it though, get a copy of the Ordnance Manual and check his against the specs if you dont have an original to compare it to.

Dave Myrick

cavman
11-26-2011, 09:24 PM
"Period bits are narrower than modern"

Too general of a statement. I own 3 original late 18th century bits ( one snaffle, a curb and a pelham) and two mid 19th century hand forged civilan pattern curb bits. ALL OF THEM have 5 inch mouth pieces and I have yet to own a horse that they would not fit.

Not on topic but I would also argue against that old widely held generalization ( myth in my opinion) that horses then were smaller and/or lankier than they are now. I believe that is entirely dependent on the horse/breed/lineage. I own and favor riding in an restored original mid 19th century civilian English saddle and it fits all of my horses very nicely. I have a large collection of period images of horses being posed and mounted civilians...I would challenge anyone to study those images -very carefully- and tell me which horses are built so much different than "modern" horses. But that is a topic for another day. I also agree completely with Dave Myrick on all of his points. Especially that last one.

P McAllister
Georgia Saddlebum

RJSamp
11-27-2011, 10:52 AM
"Period bits are narrower than modern"

Too general of a statement. I own 3 original late 18th century bits ( one snaffle, a curb and a pelham) and two mid 19th century hand forged civilan pattern curb bits. ALL OF THEM have 5 inch mouth pieces and I have yet to own a horse that they would not fit.

Not on topic but I would also argue against that old widely held generalization ( myth in my opinion) that horses then were smaller and/or lankier than they are now. I believe that is entirely dependent on the horse/breed/lineage. I own and favor riding in an restored original mid 19th century civilian English saddle and it fits all of my horses very nicely. I have a large collection of period images of horses being posed and mounted civilians...I would challenge anyone to study those images -very carefully- and tell me which horses are built so much different than "modern" horses. But that is a topic for another day. I also agree completely with Dave Myrick on all of his points. Especially that last one.

P McAllister
Georgia Saddlebum

Thanks for the correction! I've often wondered about the 'horses are fatter\bigger' generalization....maybe better feeding\breeding\medicine and less daily work has something to do with this perception.

Your point "But that is a topic for another day." is especially apropos for BOTH your and Dave's last points....stay on the thread please.

Tom Craig
11-28-2011, 01:07 PM
Guys,
First, to the original question. I can't see the picture if you've posted it, but I'm starting to get a better picture of what's up. It may in fact be that your billet is too stiff/has a rough spot on it. It may also be that you're girthing tighter/looser on this saddle because of the different fit, and as a result you're having pinches and rubs when you didn't before. It MAY also be that because your saddle fits differently you are now placing the saddle on the horses back that places the billet/girth in a bad spot for your horse. It also could be that the billets are not the proper dimensions, again placing a strain on the horse.

I would recommend a little experiment at home. Take a piece of fleece or other soft material and wrap the problem strap where the rub is happening, and ride. Afterwards, check out to see if the rub still happens, or if the fabric show's friction etc. That can be the next step in diagnosing your problem.

As to the other questions of wide/wider saddles etc. Period military saddles were made in different lengths of the seat, but not different widths. It is an error to assume that artillery horses would have been large and draft horse type. Draft horses require a LOT of forage, and while very strong for short bursts, don't have good day after day endurance that way smaller more compact animals (like mules) do.

As has been said, it is a myth to think that all modern horses are larger than CW horses. Some certainly are, and some aren't. Modern big bodied Quarter Horses are fat and rolly polly, kinda like a modern body builder. Where you might have a TN Walking Horse that is real narrow and light, and is no bigger than a horse 150 years ago. It depends on your horse. A couple of our guys own original trees. We've tried them on horses for size. Most fit better in the original tree than the repro ones, but there were a couple that would be pinched by the original tree. Other's milage will vary.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

wavey1us
11-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Whether or not a period tree and/or/ bit will your modern horse depends entirely on the horse. Then just as now different breeds of horses came in different sizes. You might just find that a period bit and tree will work just fine on a 15 hand 800 pound horse. However, being that the majority of reenactors are larger than troopers of the period, the proclivity of large bodied horses and the need to use larger horses to bear our increased mass, period sized gear most likely will not fit.

Not to knock Doug's work but his saddles are not authentic. They are possibly the closest massed produced and readily available out there but not even close to authentic. Don't take my word for it though, get a copy of the Ordnance Manual and check his against the specs if you dont have an original to compare it to.

Dave Myrick


Dave,
I would hate to disagree with you, but you are wrong. How many saddle makers out there now are producing their own trees? They are not massed produced and I think who have no idea what he is doing to make saddle trees. His saddles are constructed to fit the modern horse and not the horses that were being used in the 19th century.
So, in your opinion what is wrong with the saddles?

Ronnie Tucker
11-28-2011, 04:06 PM
i have a repro 59 mac tree. it is wider than it should be for a proper fit.my 04 tree fits good.was a real 59 mac tree similar in width to a 04.does anyone make a 59 tree that fits like the old ones did.i ride twh i try to keep them trim. ronnie tucker

Dave Myrick
11-28-2011, 06:05 PM
Bill,
I won't be drawn into that type of discussion in public. If you have a true interest in learning the differences, please send me a private message or an email.
Dave Myrick

wavey1us
11-28-2011, 09:52 PM
Dave,
I already know the differences, but you have a broad and generalized statement that has no merit. Doug will make any type of saddle that the customer wants, but you have alluded to the fact that his products (in particular his saddles and trees) are massed produced. I am telling you that I have evidence that disputes your claim.
Dave, you never really answered my question with regards to saddle makers that are producing their own trees. So, back to you. How many do you know that produce their own trees based off of the Ordnance Manuals?

Tom Craig
11-29-2011, 01:43 PM
Bill,

The short answer on who is producing their own trees, copied from the ordnance manual, is no one that I am aware of. There are people who use the manual as a guide, but again, no one I am aware of is actively producing an exact copy. You yourself say that Doug's saddles are adapted for "the modern horse" so as such, they aren't taken from the manuals directly.

I have heard recently that Doug Kidd has entered into making trees because the source that most guys were using died, but I haven't had a chance to examine any of these saddles. Beyond the width of the saddle bars, I know that virtually every saddle that I've seen made by Kidd, Cerrico etc has had the wrong shape tree. I have been told by several people that Doug can/will make an entirely handsewn, correctly produced saddle, but what I think Dave is alluding to is his run of the mill, machine sticthed, heavy leather work that is most often seen.

The discussion is swell, but is far away from the original question that was posted here.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

Dave Myrick
11-29-2011, 03:57 PM
Thanks for the support Tom. I have yet to see any of Mr. Kidd's "handmade" trees so I cannot pass judgement on them. The tree that he formerly used was incorrect in more than one way. It was made of incorrect materials, incorrectly assembled, shaped to incorrect dimensions with incorrect stirrup hangers. The stirrups themselves were incorrect. Additionally the shirt shape is wrong, and all of the leather is too heavy. Even when getting a hand stitched model, the stitches are too far apart and use incorrect, improperly treated thread. These "faults" are not limited to Doug Kidd, David Carrico, or any other maker of reenactor grade saddles and tack currently available. These are the differences between a run of mill good enough saddle and a true museum grade reproduction.

The tree should be made of two different woods, with iron straps inlet into it, then covered in green rawhide which has a fuzzy texture when dry with the staples and rings attached before stitched. The stirrup hangers should be nailed to the tree on top and bottom of the bar with an iron oval loop for the stirrup strap.There should three different weights of leather used for the various pieces of the saddle. The stirrups should have 2 wagon bolts and rivets through the transom. The thread used should be three strand 100% linen thread treated with kit prior to stitching. The stitched should be 8, 9 or 10 spi depending on piece location and maker. These details are for Federal saddles and trees ONLY.
Dave Myrick

Jim Dedman
12-01-2011, 01:55 PM
Here is something I started doing years ago. I took the correct blanket and sewed it together to form a "pillow case." Then I could insert a modern pad inside the case. If anyone ever noticed, they never mentioned it. It protected the horse's back. I put another blanket, correctly folded, on top, just before the saddle.

P.S. I have owned 15 period McClellan Saddles and they all fit the modern horse.