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csarebel14
12-01-2006, 12:29 AM
December special Henry Rifles $850!!!! brand new Rifles $100 off email us at csarebel14@aim.com or visit us at www.freewebs.com/tonyvittone

Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

1stWiscTrooper
12-01-2006, 03:54 PM
Just curious, Who defarbs your Enfields you have for sale?? Thanks Dan Chmelar

csarebel14
12-01-2006, 04:50 PM
They are made defarbed
Tony Vittone

AZReenactor
12-01-2006, 04:54 PM
Interesting. Who manufactures it? Is it rifled?

csarebel14
12-01-2006, 08:37 PM
Interesting. Who manufactures it? Is it rifled?
It is not mass produced it is hand made by a gun smith in the New england States and no its a smoothbore
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

csarebel14
12-01-2006, 09:13 PM
Also with all orders over $150. 200 german 4 wing caps Free. good thru Jan 1st 2007



Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket




www.freewebs.com/tonyvittone

modelf85
12-01-2006, 10:12 PM
Interesting . . . . . . a smoothbore enfield.

modelf85
12-01-2006, 10:28 PM
What he is selling here is their Crimean war enfield. That sucker is defarbed (or so they say) and is smoothbore. Its the Cheaper version than the 1853 rifled musket.

csarebel14
12-01-2006, 11:57 PM
The Enfields we sell are authentic muskets and where used in the civil war.
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

csarebel14
12-02-2006, 12:09 AM
The Enfields we sell are authentic muskets and where used in the civil war.
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket
The Muskets we sell are reproduction just to clear up any questions they are not originals
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

AZReenactor
12-02-2006, 12:54 AM
The Enfields we sell are authentic muskets and where used in the civil war.
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

Now this is curious...

Authentic smoothbore 1853 Enfilds that were used during the war, eh? Seems to me I recall that the P53 Enfield was a .577 caliber rifled weapon, not smoothbore.


1853 Enfield Rifles 58 Cal 9lb and all ready defarbed on of the most common guns throught the war union and confederate forces both used these rifles

Is that the spiel your supplier fed you or have you done any actual research on the muskets you are hawking? Such halftruths may suffice at gun shows and swap-meets but the CW reenacting community is a little more astute and frowns on less than reputable vendors.

JustinPrince
12-02-2006, 01:27 AM
I'd bet those are like the Pattern 53 Enfields that Loaylist Arms sells. They are called Pattern 1853s, but are made smoothbored to keep costs down. I think their Enfield goes for around $375, substantially cheaper than an AS or EOA '53.

On their website, from the description, they state that "no additional defarbing is needed." Their site claims that they are for both the ACW and Crimean War Period, but the weapon itself represents an early 1854-55 model.

I think the intent is mainly for reenacting, in that in just shooting blanks one wouldn't notice (I'm guessing) that there is no rifling. The LA site states also that they are lighter than the Italian repros.

Pics of the LA Crimean War Enfield here:
http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/enfield3band1853firstmodel.html

EDIT: I just looked at the Rusty Musket website and now I'm sure of it. He sells the Model 1840 musket (one that I am interested in actually), and so far LA is the only place I knew that made them. I'm happy now though, when I get the cash and can order I don't have to have it shipped from Canada. Once I get my CW kit put together I'd like to also put together a Mex Am impression... and the Pedersole 1816 is a little out of reach (they all are... but it more).

tompritchett
12-02-2006, 01:38 AM
What he is selling here is their Crimean war enfield. That sucker is defarbed (or so they say) and is smoothbore. Its the Cheaper version than the 1853 rifled musket.

The British also made a smoothbore Enfield that they issued to their Indian allies about this time. Because of problems the British wanted to make sure that the weapons used by the Indian troops were inferior to those that they were issuing to their own troops. However, I am not aware of any of these being sold to either side in the U.S. during the Civil War and would be interested in seeing documentation of such sales.

csarebel14
12-02-2006, 04:20 PM
The Musket we sell is made by Loyalist Arms we are a Loyalist Arms dealer i have done some research and found what most of what tompritchett is true But the English sold union and confederates these guns along with other muskets and some flintlocks that they had no use for. As for the comments made by Azreenactor The Enfields we sell are AUTHENTIC rifles if you do some research you will find these rifles were sent to Richmond Va at the start of the war and used at 1st Manassas if any one else would like to bring up any doubts about these muskets post them and i will get back to them as soon as i see them
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

POF
12-02-2006, 04:46 PM
The Musket we sell is made by Loyalist Arms we are a Loyalist Arms dealer i have done some research and found what most of what tompritchett is true But the English sold union and confederates these guns along with other muskets and some flintlocks that they had no use for. As for the comments made by Azreenactor The Enfields we sell are AUTHENTIC rifles if you do some research you will find these rifles were sent to Richmond Va at the start of the war and used at 1st Manassas if any one else would like to bring up any doubts about these muskets post them and i will get back to them as soon as i see them
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket

How can these enfields be "AUTHENTIC rifles" if they are not rifled?

csarebel14
12-02-2006, 07:00 PM
My Mistake Authentic Muskets

AZReenactor
12-02-2006, 08:17 PM
Tony,
You really should to do a bit of research if you are going to make statements like this to the reenacting community, then back them up with documentation, not conjecture.

Ther general consensus from most researchers I've come across is that there is no record of the India made smothbore version being imported before or during the war. If you have any actual evidence to the contrary you really ought to share it as there are a number of small arms researchers who would be extremely intereted in it.

The P53 British Enfield that was used by Union and Confederate troops was a .577 cal. rifled musket, not a smoothbore one. The Loayalist Arms musket is made smoothbore to reduce costs, not because it is authentic. The Loyalist Arms Enfield is a reasonable facsimile and generally acceptable in many mainstream reenacting circles, but it is not authentic.

You need to keep in mind that the term "authentic" actually means something and isn't just a catolog description sales pitch. The reenacting community is small enough that you really want to make sure you're being truthful and accurate in your statements. Claiming that an item is "AUTHENTIC" when it really isn't only serves to undermine your credibility as an honest vendor.

modelf85
12-02-2006, 11:47 PM
The Musket we sell is made by Loyalist Arms we are a Loyalist Arms dealer i have done some research and found what most of what tompritchett is true But the English sold union and confederates these guns along with other muskets and some flintlocks that they had no use for. As for the comments made by Azreenactor The Enfields we sell are AUTHENTIC rifles if you do some research you will find these rifles were sent to Richmond Va at the start of the war and used at 1st Manassas if any one else would like to bring up any doubts about these muskets post them and i will get back to them as soon as i see them
Tony Vittone
The Rusty Musket


mmmk tony. You havent done research ever.

Just to clear up any misconceptions, the post I made earlier about guns was for him, I was doin him a favor. Im not associated with these guys.

JustinPrince
12-03-2006, 12:14 AM
Admittedly I'm new here and I'm new to reenacting (actually I'm still trying to get money to put the kit together. All I have right now is a Springfield, a Bayonet, and a scabbard...), but I have always had an interest in old firearms.

I don't know about whether smoothbore Enfields were shipped to the United States. I do know however that Loyalist Arms, on their website, makes no such claims to that fact. Copied from their website directly:



1853 TOWER 3 BAND RIFLE (EARLY, FIRST MODEL Enfield)
Early 1853-55 Model, for the Crimean war and American Civil war period.


This Three Band Tower musket, (commonly known as the Enfield),was the first model,(1853-55), in a series of three.
This first model differs from the later Enfields, as there is a very narrow ram rod groove in the stock compared to the later ones.
It also has a simple button head rammer, and the lock plates are usually dated 1854 or 1855.

The above picture is a close up of the ram rod channel, or groove. One of the first changes the British military asked for on later
muskets, was to enlarge the rammer groove and hole, to prevent dirt from jamming the rammer during use in muddy trench conditions.

Britain exported these models to the US first, during the American Civil War, as they were Crimean War surplus. The British
government wanted rid of the earlier models that were already sitting at the Tower armory.
Britain also sold the obsolete 1839 & 1842 smoothbore muskets to the Union and Confederacy during this period.

Close up of our beautiful early model lock. The European companies that are currently producing their version of the
"3 Band Enfield", are actually producing the 3rd & final model of 1858-63 with the jag head rammer,
larger nose cap, & larger ram rod groove.

Our early Tower 3 band muskets, are produced in smoothbore only, to save on production costs and are lighter in weight than the other manufacturers models.
The barrel bands and lock plate are blackened like the originals were.
Each has a warranty, free replacement parts & labor.
Our model has the correctly styled side bolt washers, that are lacking from other imports and have no modern
markings on the barrel or breech that marr the other reproduction muskets.
No defarbing or rebluing is required.

These are great for the reenactor who is looking for an inexpensive musket that is
accurate,(sometimes more so), and slightly different from models previously available.

Order your's today.



Their add makes no claims that the Enfields shipped to the United States were smoothbores. In fact it specifically says they are smoothbored for the sole purpose of saving production costs and weight. Externally, they probably are accurate replicas. However they are not "authentic," at least as I am coming to understand the word from browsing here, as they are not rifled. As their ad plainly states, they are a different (external) alternative to the EOA or AS Enfield, a more accurate (if external) representation for the Crimean War period, and are great for a reenactor that needs an inexpensive musket.

I would say that any dealer adds should be rewritten as such or copy exactly from the LA site. They are externally accurate, but they are not authentic. They have one large flaw for a reason, and while it may not matter at a reenactment it may very well matter to the reenactor, and should be openly told as such.

Perhaps, though it defeats the purpose for ACW reenacting, for Crimean War reenacting one could take this musket and install a rifled EOA or AS barrel in its place?

jurgitemvaletem
12-03-2006, 10:08 AM
What I want to know is why these folks charge $450 for their enfield while Loyalist Arms their "Mother Company" sells the exact same weapons for $375? [deletion - THP]

thanks,
Jurgitem Valetem

John1862
12-03-2006, 10:56 AM
It is not mass produced it is hand made by a gun smith in the New england States



The Musket we sell is made by Loyalist Arms ...

Wait a second.....

AZReenactor
12-03-2006, 12:04 PM
It does seem like someone is looking for customers who don't pay attention to things, don't it?

tompritchett
12-03-2006, 12:57 PM
I am going to lock down this thread now as I think that enough has been said to allow our readers to make an informed decision one way or another.