Teen reenactor dead - alcohol involved

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I'm posting this link, even though it involves War of 1812 reenacting -
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/niagara/Mother-faces-charges-in-teen%27s-death
Many of us have seen underaged drinking at reenactments, and here are the sad consequences.

[TheColorBearer]

I'm posting this link, even though it involves War of 1812 reenacting -
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/niagara/Mother-faces-charges-in-teen%27s-death
Many of us have seen underaged drinking at reenactments, and here are the sad consequences.

The people involved are from Canada. They drink at an early age in Canada.

[lincolnsguard]

They drink at an early age in Canada.


That don't make it smart, or right.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

The people involved are from Canada. They drink at an early age in Canada.

WOW. Are you kidding? That was incrediblly callous, and ill-informed. The legal drinking age in Ontario is actually 19, but since this happened in the United States in the state of New York its still 21.

[flattop32355]

Until the results of the autopsy, plus the police report, are known, we're premature and just speculating on cause of death. Let's put this on hold until the facts are all in. Then we can be certain that we're aiming at the right cause/causes, with the appropriate warnings and lessons learned.

[Rob Weaver]

That there was a death involved in our hobby is simply tragic. Regardless of circumstances. That's heartbreaking.

[gwagner]

How sad...very sad.

[easttnfed]

If it was underaged drinking, then we are all guilty of seeing it and not doing anything about it. Event staff and organizers need to be a little more strict on stuff in that nature and I know that with 300+ reenactors at some of these events it will be hard for everyone to keep this from happening. Heck, I was guilt of drinking at an early age at them and no one would say anything but "I'll keep an eye on you." or "I think that is enough for tonight, you've had plenty". It is very sad that someone passed away in the reenacting world. No one wants to hear that someone in our brotherhood has passed especially at a young age. Anyone not sympathetic about this is not human.

[CameronsHighlander]

Im actually suprised it doesn't happen more often. This falls onto everyone who saw it and did nothing to stop it. And this goes when you go to a different state, Country what have you you fall under the laws of said Area therefore if it is determined that the Alchole was the cause it will be questioned who gave him the stuff that will fall on their heads and in the end the event could end up never happening again. Im 31 been in the hobby since I was 15 didn't drink then and dont drink now in part because 90% of the reenactments take place from May 1 - October 1 when its hot and Soda and Alchole dehydrate so I dont touch the stuff.

[TheColorBearer]

The people involved are from Canada. They drink at an early age in Canada.

One of my best friends is from Montreal,Quebec. He is in his forties and he tells me of the booze being served at an early age in Canada on a regular basis like it is the normal thing to do. My friend Stephan said he was rushed to the hospital due to a bleeding ulcer he didn't know he had. He was drinking a liter of vodka/orange juice and a case of beer a day. His doctor told him to cut back on the vodka. Not the smokes or the beer just the vodka. What kind of doctor says that???

If this would have happened in Europe would anyone have mentioned it?? This hobby of ours is very popular in Europe and they all drink it up over there.

In Ohio it is legal for an adult to provide thier child with booze but only thier child.


Hopefully this is a wake up at future events no matter what time period. And that goes for the adults behavior as well. To many times I have seen reenactors walking back to camp three sheets in the wind and tripping over invisible objects.

Sorry if you all took that the wrong way.

[FloridaHoosier]

The purpose of this post isn't to debate the merits of who drinks at what age, what laws are in affect, or what parents should or shouldn't do. The purpose is for the collective hobby to see that someone died, at a historical event, where the intial investigation shows that laws were broken. This post is a wake-up call and a cautionary tale, not an invitation to speculate about the social mores of other countries, individual states, or society as a whole.

[PrattStreetRioter]

Gents, besides the obvious sadness in this story be warned by it too! Be aware of what the kids are getting into after taps and by kids I mean underagers. Not just for the moral reasons but the liability ones too!

[CameronsHighlander]

It is sad and unforntunate that a young man lost his life in the Hobby.

[hanktrent]

Im actually suprised it doesn't happen more often. This falls onto everyone who saw it and did nothing to stop it.

How does an "outsider" stop it, though? In my experience, people who are into drinking at events are really into it, and will defend it pretty angrily and vigorously, even when sober. It's what the hobby is all about to them. So I don't mess with them and just let them do their thing, because I've had nothing but bad experiences even hinting that maybe focussing a little less on booze would be good.

I can't imagine any way for an outsider on his own to stop people giving alcohol to minors, due to that attitude, especially since there's no way to know for sure if someone who looks underage is underage. If you ask, he'll lie, or those around him will lie.

So let's say a reenactor sees a bunch of drunks at an event, whom he doesn't know, and some of them look borderline underage. What the heck could he do, without getting himself unwelcome at the event or worse?

And don't say, tell the organizers or officers--lots of times they're included.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Rob Weaver]

In all reality, if you feel that the alcohol use at an event has gone over the top, you do the same thing you'd do if it were your next door neighbor: alert the authorities. Very few sites are out of cell phone coverage, and the local or state police should be able to reach you shortly.

[hanktrent]

In all reality, if you feel that the alcohol use at an event has gone over the top, you do the same thing you'd do if it were your next door neighbor: alert the authorities. Very few sites are out of cell phone coverage, and the local or state police should be able to reach you shortly.

Good advice, for someone with a different personality than me. Not something I could ever do, unless I was personally the victim of a crime. Judge me negatively if you want, but that's just the way I am.

For one thing, I don't think it's up to me to decide what risks other consenting adults should be allowed to take, to enjoy their leisure activities. Drunks apparently think drinking is a hobby like mountain climbing or white-water rafting, and a few injuries or deaths every few years don't scare off those participants.

Without knowing the age of those drinking, or actually testing exactly what's in the cup of an obvious minor, there's no way for an outsider to tell whether what's going on isn't actually among consenting adults. Mistakenly calling the cops on somebody doing something perfectly legal doesn't sound real prudent, in a small and protective hobby where news travels fast.

Has any participant (not organizer) actually called the cops to an event, to control other participants? How did it turn out?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Micah Trent]

It's sad to read this. I too have been amazed that something like this does not happen more often. Hopefully lessons are learned here to many who read this.

[Rob Weaver]

Good advice, for someone with a different personality than me. Not something I could ever do, unless I was personally the victim of a crime. Judge me negatively if you want, but that's just the way I am.

For one thing, I don't think it's up to me to decide what risks other consenting adults should be allowed to take, to enjoy their leisure activities... Mistakenly calling the cops on somebody doing something perfectly legal doesn't sound real prudent, in a small and protective hobby where news travels fast.

Has any participant (not organizer) actually called the cops to an event, to control other participants? How did it turn out?
hanktrent@gmail.com
Although I've never called the cops to a reenacting situation, I have called them for domestic disputes in my neighborhood, and once when my neighbors were partying hardy late into the night. THat's not the behavior which prompts me to pick up the phone, though. It's the point where obvious wrong is going on. Loud obscene verbal abuse, cinder block throwing, threats of bodily harm. If they would simply drink themselves into peaceful stupors, we'd never even know each other. I have mellowed into a pretty longsuffering soul, but when I've had enough, well, I've had enough.
I do know of a time security at Gettysburg called the State Police ona gent who would not listen to them. IIRC, it was in 2000. I know he went out in handcuffs. I'm reluctant to share more because I'm not certain how it came out, but I believe it went very expensively badly.

[CameronsHighlander]

there are ways to handle it but it could open a whole box of problems. Speaking with the Units commander but as you said they are involved. In honesty just to let it happen in the end its a catch 22 danged if you do danged if you dont. One 18 year old get Alchole poisoning dies and we say goodbye to reenacting in general. As for going to event cooridinators I went to an event cooridinator over a different safety issue at an event and hopefully by 2012 the issue will not happen again.

[lincolnsguard]

Local news article:

http://www.buffalonews.com/city/communities/niagara-county/article547485.ece

[maillemaker]

How does an "outsider" stop it, though?

I continue to be amazed at this kind of issue. It's like the other threads talking about have people ever been thrown out of events.

Responsibility for this sort of thing lies with the event organizers. If you see an illegal activity, you report it to the event organizers, who then can eject the people from the site and call law enforcement if necessary.

And reenactors have a vested interest in this kind of thing. It is easy to lose access to event sites because of alcohol issues, which can result in not just that group losing access to the site, but all associated or affiliated groups also losing access.

Steve

[reddcorp]

According to the local report on this incident, the Park permitted adults to consume alcoholic beverages. In this instance, the lad's mother permitted or gave him 2-3 beers, and it was stated that this was commonplace. He likely tripped, slipped at night near the water, fell in, perhaps striking his head, and drowned. Whether the beer contributed to the fall is speculative. I've tripped heading for the treeline at night, stone sober, so who knows? Tragic though. Responsible adults taking a drink or two in a responsible manne....I have no problem with that, even at a reenactment.
A.Redd

[Rob Weaver]

I think I would skip the level of unit leadership althogether and talk to no one lower than the event organizer level. Our units aren't really organized with any reall off-field power - an event authority is the lowest level that could say "this behavior must cease" with any hint of authority. You could also be placing yourself in a situation that might escalate into something personally dangerous. At the same time, I wouldn't leave it totally in their hands. I would hand it over and stay engaged in a "if you aren't going to call someone I will" understanding.

[maillemaker]

I think I would skip the level of unit leadership althogether and talk to no one lower than the event organizer level. Our units aren't really organized with any reall off-field power - an event authority is the lowest level that could say "this behavior must cease" with any hint of authority. You could also be placing yourself in a situation that might escalate into something personally dangerous. At the same time, I wouldn't leave it totally in their hands. I would hand it over and stay engaged in a "if you aren't going to call someone I will" understanding.

This is the correct answer.

When you are dealing with illegal activities at a function, any kind of function, you have to go to the people with the real-life authority to eject the offenders from the site and/or call real-life law enforcement. This is not a place for dealing with make-believe command structures.

Steve

[billwatson2]

"I think I would skip the level of unit leadership altogether and talk to no one lower than the event organizer level."

Agreed, and with what Steve Sheldon said also.
The magic words: "Does your insurance cover your liability for what I just told you?" It is like a 2x4 to the head of a balky mule: It gets their attention and can energize them out of the inertia they often hide behind whenever there's a human relations issue to confront. :-)