enfield bare metal?

[butternutgrayintn]

Friend of mine aquired a 3 band enfield euro arms that has a bare metal lockplate and barrel with brass bands....most of the enfields ive seen have blued barrels ....is this historically accurate and legite?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As they left the factories, "Enfields" had rust-blued barrels, heat-blued bands, and (color) hardened lock plates and hammers.

You can read Geoff Walden's excellent study of the issue of factory finishes versus some that were later "struck bright."

The earlier Italian Enfield repro's were made with incorrect brass 4th Model Baddeley bands not used in American CW. When lads removed the black finish to strike theirs bright, they ended up with "brass" bands.

Curt

[indguard]

Actually, there absolutely were some British Enfields with brass bands during the era. I have an original, fully identified, with brass bands.

So, we have to be careful here.

It is true that many repops have the incorrect bands, but it is not true that no Civil War era Enfields had brass bands.

The question is, what do yours look like, butternutgrayintn?

WTH
The HoldItAMinnute mess

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I should let this one go, but I "can't."

;) :)

The danger and risk of answering complex questions with brief answers begs the caveat of giving the appearance of using Universals (always, never, etc) as they can become Absolutes.
Because there is NUG (normally, usually, generally) "always" the possibiity and even reality of exceptions if one makes a rule or uses absolutes.

Casually reading, and not researching a statement that there were "some" brass banded P1853 4th Model RSAF "Enfield" RM's used in the ACW, could, possibly be taken not as the rarest of exceptions or to use a Universal or Absolute to illustrate the point... be then used as an "Excuse" to dwell on the none or the rare, and make the exception the rule.

Not be confrontational at all, but always looking to learn new things I do not know. If there is a verified brass barreled banded BSAT commercial P1853 (3), OR a British government RSAF P1853 (4) (or London Commercial or London Armoury P1853) with factual ACW use and provenance, please share it, esepically pictures so I can learn more.
(Even if it is the oddity.

Thanks! I appreciate it greatly. ANYTIME we can move the Resting Point or Hinge Point of CW firearm history forward, it is a good thing.

Again, not being confrontational or snarky, or incredulous, just hoping to learn something new here.

CHS
Desire to Learn Mess

[indguard]

I don't need your approval to know that authentic brass banded Enfields exist. Ask a knowledgable Enfield collector. (And, I don't believe for a second that you were't being confrontational or snarky. Of course you were) In fact, Geoff Walden himself agreed that my brass banded Enfield is correct (he and I talked in the late 80s about this gun).

Now, were brass banded Enfields plentiful? Of course not. I never made any claims as to how plentiful they were or weren't. All I cautioned is that we should not tell people that none existed when they clearly did. Nor did I make any claims that because there were some brass banded Enfields that any brass banded repop is perfectly OK. You are the one that jumped to the wild conclusion that I was trying to excuse farbisms.

It is probable that the guy that posted the first post here has those bad Baddeley styled bands that so many of the early Enfield repops had.

My caution was simply to warn against making any broad claims that aren't true.

By the way, here is the link to Walden's Enfield defarbing article.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfauth.htm

WTH
The ReadWahtISaid mess

[Blair]

indguard,

I do not wish nor meaning to suggest your statement is not at all true for any reasons... I for one would like very much to know more about this particular piece you have made reference to?
Would you be willing to share the info and documentation? I would find it especially exciting to my areas of study on the subject.
Blair

[Craig L Barry]

I don't need your approval to know that authentic brass banded Enfields exist. Ask a knowledgable Enfield collector. (And, I don't believe for a second that you were't being confrontational or snarky. Of course you were) In fact, Geoff Walden himself agreed that my brass banded Enfield is correct (he and I talked in the late 80s about this gun).

Now, were brass banded Enfields plentiful? Of course not. I never made any claims as to how plentiful they were or weren't. All I cautioned is that we should not tell people that none existed when they clearly did. Nor did I make any claims that because there were some brass banded Enfields that any brass banded repop is perfectly OK. You are the one that jumped to the wild conclusion that I was trying to excuse farbisms.

It is probable that the guy that posted the first post here has those bad Baddeley styled bands that so many of the early Enfield repops had.

My caution was simply to warn against making any broad claims that aren't true.

By the way, here is the link to Walden's Enfield defarbing article.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/articles/walden/enfauth.htm

WTH
The ReadWahtISaid mess


I clicked on the link you provided to Geoff Walden's excellent monograph, and here is what he actually says on the matter:

"You can grind the Italian brass bands to the correct shape, but you cannot use them on a gun that is to be struck bright, since original P53s did not have brass bands. If your gun will remain blue, you will have to have the brass bands professionally reblacked, and the finish will eventually rub thin, allowing the brass to show through. Nothing ruins a good authentic Enfield impression more than brass showing through on the barrel bands."

[ACo.]

indguard, can you post pictures? It would be very interesting to see pictures. Having been looking at P53s and other "Enfields" for 40+ years, I have never seen one with brass bands and find your statements to be very interesting.

[Tiger_rifles]

Well, there is your answer Sir from some of the most well informed folks on CW Muskets todate!

I do remember back a few years there was some talk of folks using those brass bands for some form of Southern made Enfield copy, but they would be few and far between in the ranks, and very Unit specific. I de-farbed my Enfield a few years back and found some very nice replacement/repro type 3 bands in iron. I would say that more than one of us here has an "original" musket that has had replacement/reproduction parts put on it long ago,(back when the only repro muskets were the Mdl 1863 Springfield, Type 4 Enfield, and the "Zouave"), when these were used for re-enacting.

A word of caution........ there are afew "indtrolls" here on the forum that will pop out from under thier bridge from time to time hoping to start a fight. Best to just ignore them and listen to those experts,(like the ones that have replied here), that give thier knowledge freely when they could be chargeing for all this.

Many thanks Ladies and Gents for the information you share with us......... and ask nothing in return!

[reddcorp]

"Sometimes....it's just the way you say things, Travis. That's all. I swear to God".
James Bowie, from "The Alamo"

For what it's worth.

A. Redd

[maillemaker]

Geeze. I thought what Curt said was fine and not confrontational at all.

Steve

[Blair]

butternutgrayintn,

Your Friend acquired an early 1975 to 1979 Euroarms Enfield.
These arms do have black chromed brass Baddeley barrel bands. (of the type most commonly found on the fully 100% interchangeable 4th Pattern Enfield type firearms from that time period.)
As was pointed out in earlier postings, these brass bands are not appropriate on an Enfield type arm that was "Struck Bright". Most of this "Striking Bright" was done here in the U. S., not by the British.
I hope this best helps answer your original question,
Blair

[butternutgrayintn]

it does thank you, alot of interesting dialouge here seems there is a broad spectrum of knowledge here..be that as it may i think i will hold out for a rifle with less conntroversy.

[Craig L Barry]

Or replace the bands if it is a good deal otherwise. Those early Euroarms P53s
were much higher quality than what they produced later on.

[Bill_Cross]

You what I love about this hobby? The way someone can say "I'm skeptical about what you've written, please can you provide some photos so I can learn about something I possibly don't know," and get back "**** you and the horse you rode in on."

It's going to be a great 150th if we keep that sort of response at the ready. :(

[Blair]

indguard,

Might your Enfield be one of the shortened (from 39 to 36 inch barrel) three band Rifle Muskets referred to as a "Hay Pattern"? They are reported to have used bronze barrel bands on these.
I have seen a number of these shorter than normal three banders, but have not personally seen one of this type of shortened Rifle Muskets with what I would describe as brass or bronze bands.
To my knowledge these were experimental for the most part. They were considered extremely accurate using the basic service cartridge in a .577 bore that was progressive depth, three grove rifled with a very fast 1-48 rate of twist.

[indguard]

Mr. Blair,

No, it is a full size, three bander made in Birmingham. It is not cut down, at least I don't think so. I remember it being exactly as long as my 1864 US Bridesburg Springfield. It has (if I remember correctly) one vertical and two diagonal hash marks on all the parts to identify them as all part of the same piece (or it was the other way around). It also has spring bands on the right side of the stock as you are firing it, too. I have been told by several that it is all correct and original. I was also told (this was back in the early 1980s, mind you) that some few Enflieds did have brass bands originally.These were old time collectors -- also the note from Geoff from the same period told me he thought it all original.

It is a very interesting piece. Do I think it was common? like I said, it was certainly not common.

I do not have any photos of the thing handy, though and it would be some difficulty to get them taken as I have this put away right now.

WTH

[Blair]

indguard,

Bands held by springs?
Do you know if your RM is based on the 2 nd Pattern P-1853? This Pattern is pretty distinctive because of the use of band springs.
The then, Col. Hay, is very much involved with the development of the various patterns of the P-53's.
It is difficult to tell for sure, (because the documentation is not always specific as to the patterns) but, I believe Hay first suggest the usage "bronze" for the making of the furniture on the 2 nd Pattern P-1853's due to the dates of the discussion of 1854/5.
I hope you find this usful.

[indguard]

interesting info. Thanks
WTH

[Enfield577]

I won't comment on the gun in question, because honestly, I don't remember it. And I don't have my Enfield data files here to check. But the early 1980s were a long time ago now ... ;)

Blair, I have a Hay Pattern Rifle. It has normal iron Baddeley bands. But it does have furniture made of what they called "Admiralty Bronze" - it has a definite different appearance from brass. And you're right - that Hay rifling is extremely accurate - this is the most accurate Enfield I have ever shot.

Geoff Walden

[Blair]

Geoff,

Just courious...and I don't want to high jack this thread anymore than it already has been, but I got to ask... What style or type bullet were you using?
The basic English Pattern paper patched "Pritchet" ball, or the American "Burton" style Minnie Ball.

[Enfield577]

Blair,

I tried both. Started with a regular 575213 3-ringer (from a Lee or Lyman mold - I don't recall which now). 60 gns FFg. I didn't shoot this round much, because I had a custom Pritchett mold made, for a .55 diam 530 gn bullet with a deep truncated conical base. I made baked clay plugs for these bullets, paper patched them and lubricated with beeswax, and shot them with 60-68 gn Fg. Now, THAT was the accurate round! I also shot these from a Parker-Hale P58 2-bander. That was the only bullet that heavy barrel fast twist P-H liked - it didn't shoot 575213 3-ringers worth a dern.