Loaded Rifle Bought At Gunshow

[VRCordsgt]

A few months ago I was able to purchase a replacement for my St.Louis Hawken Rifle. I know it is not a Civil War Period arm, but the post is valid.

The rifle was in a rack on the selelrs table and I ask permission to pick it up and examine it. On doing so I noticed the ramrod was sticking out beyond the muzzel in its thimbles. I myself make my ramrods a bit longer for a better grip when loading a fouled bore, so thought nothing of it.

At home I was doing so checking and minor cleaning and to check the cone (nipple) was clear, I capped it and pointed it at the ground. Imagine my shock and surprise when a loud BOOM issued from the bore with a flash of light and cloud of sulfure smoke. Thank goodness I was outside! I had been correct, the ramrod is longer than the barrel but I still should have used a regulation ramrod to check for a loaded condition.

I could not get to the show the next day, but did call and report the incident to the promoters and later was told by someone I knew who had tables at the shows that the promoters did go around and check "ALL" firearms for loads.

IMHO, this should have been done prior to the doors opening on Saturday Morning. Do a check of every firearm as the vendors are setting up on Friday afternoon and evening.
Those coming to the shows with firearms to sell/trade are subjected to a weapons inspection, why not the full, weekend vendors?

I was at a show in Miami years ago when a 11 year old boy was killed with a pistol the police at the door failed to inspect as the owner had several others, and when he showed it to a vendor to possably sell to him and the man pulled the slide back and saw the round in the chamber, he let go of the slide, which was not fully drawn back, fell and the firing pin struck the primer and discharged the round. THe bullet hit the boy who had knelt down to get something from abox under the table and was inadvertantly in the line of fire. Even though the Paparmedics were "In House" ( they had stopped to see some of the show, and grabbed the boy up, they had to transport him across town to N. Miami's Jackson Mem Hosp. and he was D.O.A.

As my units Ord.Sgt. I see each member as they arrive at the event site and inspect their firearms as they unpack and set up their camp. I make sure no firearm is loaded and that there are no live ( powder and ball) cartridges in their packs or Ammo Box and no loose ball that could be loaded. I do a Formal inspection during the drill before the battles scenes and again after to be sure no charge is left unfired.

I see no reason this could not be done at a Gunshow during the set-up hours or at events as the unit members arrive and set up camp or at drill or even at Colors Assembly each morning, partricularly Sunday as a lot of reenactors do not arrive until after Colors on Saturday due to work and driving to the events.

Safety in our hobby and at Gunshows, is everyones concern and should be taken more seriously than it is at some of these events. If we do not "Police" ourselves, then others will and we will loose the right to have trhese events and in the case of a reenactment, loose the means to teach the truth about that period of our history

[Shortround]

The weapon was charged. When you put the cap on it then it became fully loaded.

It does make me wonder why you didn't drop a ram-rod in to the weapon at the show. I do that for every muzzle loader. I fully expect to hear that wonderful "ping" from the ram-rod hitting the breech base. I've been cursed by more than one vendor when the ram-rod gets stuck in the crud in the breech of the rifle.

Well, I suppose another law will fix the situation. We can't have enough laws, you know.

[PetePaolillo]

All Guns are loaded all of the time. People who do not treat them as such end up hurt, dead or do the same to others.

[dixieflyer]

All Guns are loaded all of the time. People who do not treat them as such end up hurt, dead or do the same to others.

That right there :roll: Plus, I am really discombobulated that you did not check the bore with a light and/or using the ramrod first thing, much less before laying out your money. I bought an M1816 back in '89 or '90 that had a load in it, but knew it was there when I bought it.
The dealer/seller is to be admonished for not taking care of this, or at least making you aware, BUT in my very humble opinion, this is something you should have been able to detect on the spot at the show before paying for the weapon as well.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

My question is "why on earth would you cap the weapon, pull back the hammer, and pull the trigger"? You treat every weapon as if it was loaded, particularly one that wasn't yours previously. Thats just as bad as buying the loaded gun in the first place. You NEVER cap a weapon prior to dropping a ramrod down, a borelight, or any other manner of checking the barrel. If that's how you inspect weapons traditionally, you need to be re-evaluated before checking anyone elses. Thats just as scary as buying a loaded weapon in the first place.

[fedpard24]

It does make me wonder why you didn't drop a ram-rod in to the weapon at the show. I do that for every muzzle loader. I fully expect to hear that wonderful "ping" from the ram-rod hitting the breech base. I've been cursed by more than one vendor when the ram-rod gets stuck in the crud in the breech of the rifle.

If the purchaser was buying a Hawken rifle it probably had a wooden ram rod on it. If he dropped it he would not get a ping. However there are plenty of other ways to check the firearm and several have been mentioned. You can never be too careful.

[Blair]

Sean,

You are correct about the wooden rod not pinging. Even with metal end pieces on the rod.

A number of folks forgot the fundamentals of firearms safety here. Forgotten or neglected by persons that should have known better in this case.
However, had someone been injured as a result... the fault would have been the person whom pulled the trigger!
There are NO "do overs" where firearms safety are concerned.

[Shortround]

It does make me wonder why you didn't drop a ram-rod in to the weapon at the show. I do that for every muzzle loader. I fully expect to hear that wonderful "ping" from the ram-rod hitting the breech base. I've been cursed by more than one vendor when the ram-rod gets stuck in the crud in the breech of the rifle.

If the purchaser was buying a Hawken rifle it probably had a wooden ram rod on it. If he dropped it he would not get a ping. However there are plenty of other ways to check the firearm and several have been mentioned. You can never be too careful.

Sean,

I've been handling firearms since 1973 and muskets/muzzle loaders since the 1976 reenactment time. Most Hawkins are either CVA or Tradition manufacture weapons and those have brass on the end of the ram rod. Indeed, they have brass at both ends on most models; one end is for ramming the round and the other usually threaded for a worm or a cleaning jag. Out of 100 weapons (I go to gun shows a lot) I might see three or four with purely wooden rammers and those weapons are usually the junk. Conversely, some of the CVA/Traditions stuff now has synthetic ramrods. It is beyond this poster why somebody wants a primitive ignition system and then mixes synthetic with it. But that might be a legal item, such as some states require primitive to be flintlocks.

Anyway, I would wager $100 against a beer that I could indeed take a wooden ramrood and determine if the bore was at least clear or obstructed. That is called knowing a weapon. If you can't take a wooden ram rod and hear that sharp "wack!" of wood against steel then why are you a muzzle loader? Also, why didn't the buyer take the nipple off the weapon and put a bore light into it? If you don't have a nipple wrench and a bore light then take the ram rod, put it againt the outside breech, then put the ram rod down the breech, and they better come out close in length. If you have an inch and a half of "unaccounted for" area of the breech, hand the rifle back to the vendor, and tell the organizers of the event that vendor has a charged weapon. The event organizers will take care of the offender.

[Forrestcavalryman]

Plus, if you suspected it of being fouled there's is a handy little tool called a co2 discharger. That would've been much safer/smarter than setting a cap on it.

[Jim Mayo]

At home I was doing so checking and minor cleaning and to check the cone (nipple) was clear, I capped it and pointed it at the ground. Imagine my shock and surprise when a loud BOOM issued from the bore with a flash of light and cloud of sulfure smoke.

Capping and firing a muzzle loader without verifying the barrel clear violates Basic Gun Safety 101. You were very lucky. Don't put the responsibility on the show promoters. Everyone who handles a gun has the responsibility to determine if it is safe. That is why you inspect firearms at a reenactment.

Buying a used muzzle loader with a load is not an uncommon occurence be it original or reproduction. Worming the load out adds some excitement to life. I bought a M-42 once with two complete loads. Found out it was bird shot when about a thousand little lead shot balls came out all over the garage floor.

[Blair]

Jim,

Thanks.

Just because one works with or deals with firearms on an ongoing bases does not mean they uses the fundamentals of firearms safety all the time. Sometime familiarity breads complacency.
In this case, there was a massive failure on the part of everyone involved regarding basic firearms safety. Luckily, no one came to harm from it.
I'll be willing to bet, the purchaser (original poster), will never allow such a thing to happen to him again. And that makes it a "double good" lesson learned!
For that reason, I am glad he posted this message.
Thanks Richard,

[dixieflyer]

Blair, I bet you're right on that!

[Cadet]

Not to defend those who put on gunshows, but to expect the small handful of those who put on the show to inspect thousand of guns of all vendors prior to opening the show is expecting a lot. The gunshows I go to do always inspect the guns of those who enter, as they enter during the show, but I've never seen more than four people in charge of inspecting guns, and usually it's more like one person.

Yes, shame on that one vendor for not making sure that rifle was clear. But this experience just goes to show just how important it is to ALWAYS assume the gun is loaded and treat it as such, even when you know beyond doubt it is clear, and NEVER point it at anything unless you are prepared to destroy that thing.

Finally, all muzzleloaders are legally considered unloaded if the cap is absent. Even if inspected, I could probably take a muzzleloader into a gunshow with a charged bullet rammed down the barrel, so long as there is no cap on the nipple. It won't fire without the cap, so there is no safety concern in this case. I've never done this, but I've seen them inspect my muzzleloader the one time I took it into a show--and they don't do any kind of barrel inspection or pulling of ramrod. They just check the nipple that there is no cap present. Inspecting muzzleloaders for a charge down the barrel takes significant time that is not available to those putting on gunshows.

I've bought two muzzleloaders at gunshows--a great place to go for a great price if you're patient--and both times I've pinged the ramrod to confirm not only that it wasn't loaded, but that it was clean (or that it needed a little help as in one case).

So--what the **** were you doing capping a gun off that you hadn't confirmed was not charged? Or, at least, been prepared for it to go off?

[Poor Private]

Loaded firearms at gun shows happens more than you realise. You get people who inherited a bunch of guns- whats the best place to sell them? YOu have some old fart who is selling off his collection and forgot that that 12gage was his by the bed home defense gun and it's still loaded. I have even seen reputable dealers have a no-no. It's just like every other store or purchase area in the world. BUYER BE WARE.

[Jim Mayo]

I always check and if I find they are loaded I can usually get them at a lower price.

[Nighthawk]

I was at my friends shop, (he's a gun smith who can just about work miracles with antique firearms). He showed me an original Whitworth he had in for some work. I put the rammer down the barrel, just out of habbit, and I knew. I said, "Andy, this Whitworth is loaded!" Well he called the owner who requested that he remove the round. It in itself was interesting as it was a whitworth pattern bullet.
Regards,

[Rob Weaver]

OK - we beat the buyer up for not checking the gun when he first picked it up. Yep. That was a mistake. I have a Pennsylvania rifle with a wood rammer. I can tell the difference between the sound of the rammer in the bore and on top of a charge. This is a great example of how even wise, knowledgable and careful people sometimes make mistakes. At least you were pointing it at the ground when you pulled the trigger. That prevented an unfortunate mistake from becoming a tragedy. Lessons learned all around, I'd say.

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

All Guns are loaded all of the time. People who do not treat them as such end up hurt, dead or do the same to others.

No truer words ever written regarding weapon safety, Double P. Well said!

Unfortunately, even unloaded weapons are not a foolproof safety guarantee against those destined for a Darwin Award. The city I live in, banned ammunition sales at gun shows held in city convention facilities. This municipal restriction was prompted by genius that bought a weapon & ammunition, loaded, pointed the weapon towards the ceiling, & pulled the trigger.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

All true...

But we play in a Hobby that is "paradoxical." Meaning, we not only point firearms at one another, we aim and discharge them.
It would seem, perhaps, that the less or none one is in, around, and exposed to firearm shooting, the more a firearm ceases to be a firearm and reverts to just a theatrical prop or even a Boy Toy.

I am not knocking the Cardinal Rules of Firearms in ANY way, but if we were really to apply the rule about not pointing a firearm at anything we do not intend to shoot/kill, our events would all be simulated Duck Hunts.

I realize that does not sound "right," and I am not trying to give a pass, an excuse, or even a wink or nod to the lack of firearm safety. (But, when we violate the Rules, we can expect undesireable outcomes. It is just, in reenacting, inherent risk or not- that we break the rules for the "Hobby" and trust, hope, or pray for the "best" from some of the "best and worst" lads with firearms in their hands.

It is not that uncommon for older muzzleloaders to have once been loaded and perhpas kept loaded above a fireplace mantle. And when sold, got passed through many hands still loaded from 1989 or 1949 or 1909 or 1869 without notice.
I have pulled several rounds from "old muzzleloaders." (and while one cannot date blackpowder, I like to burn it to see how much "fizzle" it still has left after X number of years sitting on a wall or in a closet.

CHS
The last repro I bought off a CW board, a Mississippi rifle, was not loaded, but had not been cleaned in a Coon's Age Mess

[Blair]

Curt,

All of what you say is, and can be very true.
Within what we call a "hobby", real firearms are being used as, "theatrical prop or even a Boy Toy".
The premises or perception that is assumed by many that these are props or toys are/is a mistake and should not be propagated under any presumption that they are anything less than "real firearms"! This is the only prevention of such things (accidents) from happening.
Just my opinion on this subject,

[Rob Weaver]

What's the name of the famous anti-war short story about the musket loaded in the revolution that finally cooks off and kills an innocent buyer? "The Gun?"
On the subject of aiming at each other, I'll stand with the Quaker during the Revolution who supposedly said "I was not aiming at thee. Thou wast standing where I was pointing my gun."

[Army30th]

An interesting Fellow once wrote:

"Don't meddle with old unloaded firearms. They are the most deadly and unerring things that have ever been created by man. You don't have to take any pains at all with them; you don't have to have a rest, you don't have to have any sights on the gun, you don't have to take aim, even. No, you just pick out a relative and bang away, and you are sure to get him. A youth who can't hit a cathedral at thirty yards with a Gatling gun in three-quarters of an hour, can take up an old empty musket and bag his mother every time at a hundred."

[dculgan]

I inherited an Allen & Thurber "pepperbox" that was sadly missing its hammer. It was if someone took it apart and purposely put it back together without the hammer. Years later I was oiling it up and noticed two of the four chambers were shorter. This was part of a small collection of three antique pistols, and all were probably played with by the kids in previous generations. Someone may have decided it was safer to remove the hammer than pull the balls. I've given up looking through the surviving flotsam of my generations looking for the missing hammer. D. Culgan

[Rob Weaver]

Ok I have to tell this story at this point. When my son was 4, he liked to drop things in holes. For instance, there's a hole in the living room floor where the pipes used to pass. He'd drop Legos through to the cellar below. Anyway, first event of the season and my musket had been standing in the corner of the living room for a couple days. Before I left, I thought I'd spring the rammer just for good measure. It slid part of the way down the barrel and made an odd sound. I knew the gun was cleaned and oiled so I was puzzled. I secured arms and tapped hard on the stock. Eventually, 7 crayons fell out of the barrel. I still wonder how he got up to the muzzle...

[dixieflyer]

Ok I have to tell this story at this point. When my son was 4, he liked to drop things in holes. For instance, there's a hole in the living room floor where the pipes used to pass. He'd drop Legos through to the cellar below. Anyway, first event of the season and my musket had been standing in the corner of the living room for a couple days. Before I left, I thought I'd spring the rammer just for good measure. It slid part of the way down the barrel and made an odd sound. I knew the gun was cleaned and oiled so I was puzzled. I secured arms and tapped hard on the stock. Eventually, 7 crayons fell out of the barrel. I still wonder how he got up to the muzzle...

Rob, just think of the pretty colors possible when you fired, much like Oddball behind the Tiger. Well, I guess that's better than getting to the event and opening up your knapsack or haversack only to find it full of stuffed animals and/or Beanie-Babies.