Jacket question

[Peter Sivak]

While looking through some photos of the 83rd Pennsylvania, I came across this photo of Pvt. John C. Hays. According to pa-roots.com, John C. Hayes of Co. E enlisted February 20, 1864, and died June 18, 1864 of wounds received during the battle of the Wilderness. I was wondering what jacket he is wearing? Is the picture pre-enlistment?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

No, that appears to be a soldier image, based upon the trousers and the military jacket. It conforms to several other state-type jackets issued by Pennsylvania and other states.

[Peter Sivak]

Did PA issue a state jacket after 1861? I know they issued gray jackets to the Reserve Corps but I thought that was the last of Pennsylvania issued jackets.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Did PA issue a state jacket after 1861? I know they issued gray jackets to the Reserve Corps but I thought that was the last of Pennsylvania issued jackets.

Thats a good question. I'm not as up on Pennsylvania state uniforms as I am of the western states. Not all state jackets were issued early on - some go into 1864. Another thing to look into was, did this soldier have a prior enlistment in another regiment (when this image could have been taken) and reenlisted in 64, or is it possible that this one was just mis id'd?

[lincolnsguard]

I looked....in short...Some of these "late war enlisting" 83rd PV fellers were issued what ever was lying around the nearest warehouse when they signed on. It looks like....after they were at Petersburg for a while, all of the odd stuff was swapped as it wore out for the standard sack coat. That's all I see being (re-)issued while the unit was at Petersburg and after.;)

[Peter Sivak]

Eli,
What source did you get that from? I'm curious because, Oliver Norton left a good account of the equipage of the 83rd from 1861-1863, but I have seen very little on the equipage of the regiment in the last two years of the war. Another thing to consider is that companies G, H, I, & K were formed in 1864 from draftees through various portions of the state, but Co. E was always a predominatly Erie company.

This photo may be mislabeled, because the John C Hays of Co. E enlisted at age 17 according to Bates' Card File, but the man in the photo appears to be over 17.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Thats why I mentioned above that it is possible that it was mis identified. You're right, he doesn't look 17 in that posted image. That is a common occurance in this endeavor. Just the other day a nice older lady came into the museum to show me a copy of a photo of her "great grandfather in his Confederate uniform". It was with great difficulty that I pointed out that this man was 100% in a Union uniform with all the Union trappings.

[toptimlrd]

Thats why I mentioned above that it is possible that it was mis identified. You're right, he doesn't look 17 in that posted image. That is a common occurance in this endeavor. Just the other day a nice older lady came into the museum to show me a copy of a photo of her "great grandfather in his Confederate uniform". It was with great difficulty that I pointed out that this man was 100% in a Union uniform with all the Union trappings.

Ouch! Knowing the area you are in, how long did it take you to either 1. revive her or 2. get her to stop calling you every name in the book?

[cannnfodder]

I have the Reg history of the 83rd Pa. and they were issued Chasseur uniforms at one time. There are two photos of the soldiers wearing them. The 83rd performed heroic duty next to the 20th Maine at Little Round Top. I haven't read the book yet to find when they turned in their chasseur uniforms for standard garb.

[Peter Sivak]

cannonfodder,
In his July 16 letter Norton says that the regiment got blankets, haversacks, blouses, pants, shoes, socks, and shirts to replace what was lost when they dropped packs before Gaines' Mill. Norton mentions another clothing issue prior to the Seven Days, so the chasseur uniforms were probably replaced by Manassas.

Now back to the original question. It doesn't seem to be an exact look-a-like of a Schuylkill Arsenal jacket or a New York State jacket.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

It doesn't appear to be an SA jacket due to the cut of the cloth and the medium general service buttons instead of smalls, and it probably wouldn't be a SNY jacket in Pennsylvania. It has most of the provenance of many different states such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and other Pennsylvania regiments I've seen. The buttons at the cuff (hard to tell if it was functional cuff, but doubtful) are unusual (soldier add-on?), the slashed pocket in front, and the lack of tailored lines make it just an ordinary state jacket. It has a stand up collar that is worn down in the fashion that many soldiers did. Outside of that one picture, its hard to give it an exact provenance, but it does rule out a couple of suspects.

[RJSamp]

Too me, it looks like a roundabout with the collar turned down (pressed?), but only 8 buttons instead of the usual 9.


Always like the cut\drape of the trowsers in these 'new' uniform pictures....note the hem line on the heel side of the trowsers....

[Peter Sivak]

Thanks for the insight Ross.
I also find his hat interesting. I don't think it is a Hardee hat, because of the ribbon on the outside.

To add to the fun, there are a dozen matches for John C Hays in the soldiers and sailors database, and halfof them are from Ohio units, and one of these men may be the real subjects of the photos, but I don't know anything on the other soldiers.