Hobnail Patterns, Authentic?

[IrishRifles]

I see a boot and shoe maker offering Hobnail "Pattern" service. Question, would it be historically correct for footwear of the period to have designs or patterns in the hobnails on the soles of the shoes and boots, or is this just something that the boot maker is doing on its own? :confused:

[Silas]

The search function is an under valued and under utilzed resource. Here's a recent thread about hobnails : http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20107

Nice photos, too.

[IrishRifles]

The search function is an under valued and under utilzed resource. Here's a recent thread about hobnails : http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20107

Nice photos, too.

Yes, I did come across that post when I did as I always do, run a search first. It does not answer my specific question of did they put creative 'designs' in the hobnails on the footwear of the period. I can't seem to pin down this one. If anyone knows about this specific detail, please let me know. I'll keep on looking though. :confused:

[Silas]

After seeing that thread, I don't see why anyone would want to put hobnails on their shoes. Yeah, you get traction on grass, but you substantially diminish the life of the shoes.

I fairness, I jumped to the conclusion that you wanted to know about patterns so you could get ideas for something you wanted done or wanted to do yourself. Doesn't sound like that was the reason for your question.

[Pvt Schnapps]

After seeing that thread, I don't see why anyone would want to put hobnails on their shoes. Yeah, you get traction on grass, but you substantially diminish the life of the shoes.

I fairness, I jumped to the conclusion that you wanted to know about patterns so you could get ideas for something you wanted done or wanted to do yourself. Doesn't sound like that was the reason for your question.

You need to read further in the discussion before concluding that hobnails destroy soles. I could go on at length about what lasts and doesn't when it comes to boots and miles, but the best response is one word: caliga.

[Silas]

Caliga? Those would be fine under the principle of "when in Rome..."

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Thought that was Caligula?

[RJSamp]

Thought that was Caligula?

He was named after the heavy studded shoe of the roman legion soldiers.....caliga:Caligula

[Pvt Schnapps]

Caliga? Those would be fine under the principle of "when in Rome..."

The point is, as I mentioned in the other thread, if hobnails ruined shoes someone in the last two thousand years might have noticed. Have you removed your heel plates yet?

But while we're on the subject, you've got to admire the design of the caliga. The uppers come pre-slashed and they readily adjust to swelling feet: http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/67/Caligae_from_side.jpg

[billwatson2]

Wow, just when I think it's going to be a dull day someone pops in with caliga- Caligula. Now I can refresh my Cliff Clavin impression. :)

[DulcimerPlayer]

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cwpb.00888/?co=cwp

On the high res photo's you can find that two of these soldiers and hobnails and/or tacks. Neither has a pattern, they just go around the outer edge of the shoe, probably for traction.

[boucher42]

Hobnails destroy shoes? Interesting. And all this time I thought they were saving my sole(s), I laughed out loud and woke my family with that one.

Oh! The humanity of it all.

[FloridaHoosier]

Hobnails destroy shoes? Interesting. And all this time I thought they were saving my sole(s), I laughed out loud and woke my family with that one.

Oh! The humanity of it all.

Actually, there is nothing humorous about that statement. The gentleman who posted knowledge of the subject, as well as images, does indeed know what he is talking about as one who makes many repairs on shoes, several of those repairs being from hobnails rusting, pushing through, and other maladies. Read the link provided from the former thread on hobnails mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I've experienced myself with two pairs of shoes. I stick to heel plate only thanks to those experiences.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Actually, there is nothing humorous about that statement. The gentleman who posted knowledge of the subject, as well as images, does indeed know what he is talking about as one who makes many repairs on shoes, several of those repairs being from hobnails rusting, pushing through, and other maladies. Read the link provided from the former thread on hobnails mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I've experienced myself with two pairs of shoes. I stick to heel plate only thanks to those experiences.

I'm wondering what else might have happened with those shoes, Ross. I've had a pair of boots with hobnails for 8 years with no problem, but they only get worn to three or four events a year. My hobnailed bootees lasted six years before resoling, but I put somewhere between three and four hundred miles on them. The soles didn't become damaged until I had actually worn the heads off half the nails, and the damage came from the trail, not the nails.

The hobnails shouldn't wear through if the sole is thick enough to begin with (none of mine did with the MB&S bootees), and I've never had a rusty hobnail, but I'm pretty thorough about cleaning my stuff when I get home. Besides two milennia of European experience with hobnails, logic should tell us that if iron in leather is harmful, then we should see the same effect from plates nailed into our heels. But I've had the same experience there -- the heel doesn't wear until the metal has.

[Regular DOC]

I'm wondering what else might have happened with those shoes, Ross. I've had a pair of boots with hobnails for 8 years with no problem, but they only get worn to three or four events a year. My hobnailed bootees lasted six years before resoling, but I put somewhere between three and four hundred miles on them. The soles didn't become damaged until I had actually worn the heads off half the nails, and the damage came from the trail, not the nails.

The hobnails shouldn't wear through if the sole is thick enough to begin with (none of mine did with the MB&S bootees), and I've never had a rusty hobnail, but I'm pretty thorough about cleaning my stuff when I get home. Besides two milennia of European experience with hobnails, logic should tell us that if iron in leather is harmful, then we should see the same effect from plates nailed into our heels. But I've had the same experience there -- the heel doesn't wear until the metal has.



Mike please excuse my ignorance but I was wondering upon discharge did the soldier keep his bootees or where those things turned in. That may be a dumb question but I am still fuzzy on what a soldier turned in and what he kept.

[hanktrent]

Sort of tangential to the original quesition, but I can see why there might have been a motivation to put hobnails in patterns. I've used hobnail patterns many times to figure out what was going on, during reenactments, when one is dealing with miles of dirt roads and no long-distance way of communicating. I expect it's something other reenactors do also. It seems reasonable to suspect it was done in the period, too.

For example, at Into the Piney Woods, one member of our group had to drop out due to blisters. We left him with the water wagon and went on, not expecting to see him again. The next morning, a couple miles from where we left him, I noticed footprints with his hobnail pattern join the dirt road we were following, from a side road, and continue ahead of us. He was up ahead!

A while later, we ran across where he'd scratched his initials in the dirt with an arrow ahead, and soon we found him sitting along the road, and he rejoined us. But even without the initials, we knew immediately it was him, because of his hobnail pattern.

I've also used hobnail patterns to count how many are in a group when footprints are confusing, and to notice when a new person joins a group. Also at ITPW, when we came across the handcart company, I immediately realized one person was missing, since there was one person less than the number of different hobnail styles I'd counted. Isolated in a "hostile" environment, it was useful to know if someone was lurking (as it turned out, she'd just gone ahead of the group to scout the trail).

In the latter case, if a person was up to no good, not having patterns would have been better, but in the first case, the hobnail pattern was a handy way to communicate.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

Mike please excuse my ignorance but I was wondering upon discharge did the soldier keep his bootees or where those things turned in. That may be a dumb question but I am still fuzzy on what a soldier turned in and what he kept.

No, it's a good question. Bootees, boots, and everything else you wore, plus wool blankets and rubber or painted blankets counted as "clothing" and you owned your clothing. It went with you when you went to hospital or left the service. If you died it went to your family or got auctioned off and the proceeds went to your family.

In the Regular service you had a schedule of allotted clothing; if you drew more or less your pay was adjusted accordingly. In the Volunteer service you got $3.50 a month to cover clothing costs, which went up to $4.00 in 1864, by which point it was apparently totally inadequate. Clothing prices, and the cost of camp and garrison equipage, were adjusted every year with the new prices announced in General Orders.

Officers paid for their own; para. 1166 of the Regs allowed them to buy clothing from the quartermaster at cost; typically this would be enlisted clothing. G.O. 35 of Feb. 2, 1863 allowed sutlers to carry officers' clothing, as well as shoes, shirts, drawers, socks, and uniform trimmings.

In the Confederate army you or your captain received a commutation allowance with which to buy clothing, until late 1862 (G.O. 100 of December 8, retroactive -- I have no idea how that would work -- to October 8 ), at which point Confederate soldiers received an allowance in kind sort of like the old Regulars. At some later point, when the value of the currency dropped, officers also received an allowance in kind.

It's a relevant point here, because the soldier, both north and south, had about as much financial interest in maintaining their clothing and shoes as we do. That may be one reason the two Confederate dead in the earlier photo had hobnails -- the nails around the outside of the sole would have protected the stitching, in addition to whatever extra traction they provided.

On the general topic, I should emphasize that I don't mean to sound dismissive of the complaints about hobnails. I have the highest regard for Ross and the sutler in the other thread. I don't for a moment doubt that they saw what they reported to the rest of us. It's just that based on my own experience (and leaving out the Ninth Legion :) ) I suspect that something else may have contributed to the damage described.

[FloridaHoosier]

No offense taken at all. I think my experience may have come from varying grades of terrain, with some harder surfaces thrown in on occasion, and I was at some really wet events for a couple of years, which I'm sure led to speeding up the decay on both the nails and the soles. I too have had some shoes that lasted for years with hobnails, and some that made it only a few events, and I have no doubt that maintenance and sole thickness can make those variations occur.

[skamikaze]

Robert Land told me that unless you hobnail your shoes before you take them into the field, you may as well not do it. If you have a few miles on your soles, they may be too thin to adequately handle the nails and will eventually wear through to your feet.

I've never had nails on mine, as I have never bought new shoes with them on. I took mine to Land to have them nailed last year but they were too thin to do it. Next pair will get the nails.

[boucher42]

Actually, there is nothing humorous about that statement. The gentleman who posted knowledge of the subject, as well as images, does indeed know what he is talking about as one who makes many repairs on shoes, several of those repairs being from hobnails rusting, pushing through, and other maladies. Read the link provided from the former thread on hobnails mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I've experienced myself with two pairs of shoes. I stick to heel plate only thanks to those experiences.


I read it. I still think the statement is humorous. I do not use hobnails on my ACW shoes. But for WWI and WWII (german)yes. because they are documented and that's how they were issued. And they do make the soles last longer. If you take care of your things they last longer. Throwing wet and muddy leather shoes in a tote or closet for months on end will destroy them I don't care if they have hobnails or not. BTW I have a pair of shoes that are 17 years of age that have hobnails in the soles and they are not destroyed.
Peace out.

[Regular DOC]

It's a relevant point here, because the soldier, both north and south, had about as much financial interest in maintaining their clothing and shoes as we do.

Very interesting point and thanks for the info. I can imagine what the guys who ended up in the Hospitals after a battle must have been nervous beyond their wounds. "OMG I can't find any of my gear what happened to it?"

Since many of the guys coming there would have lost numerous clothing items due to their wounds such as trousers or coats etc that must have been a lesson in futility to track that. Though the clothing reciept I have that I showed you once makes a bit more sense now.

[IrishRifles]

Wow, what a response. Although, it still doesn't help me solve the question of did they put design patterns in the Hob nails. On the discussion of the need, I myself must have them on my footwear, without question. I am an Artillerist. If I had no Hob nails, I would be slipping and sliding all over the place, not getting any traction for when we move the cannon around the field. From past experiences, I have lost my footing many times where I had Brogans on that did not have Hob nails.

[Pvt Schnapps]

There's a documented "pattern" in the photo posted earlier of dead Confederates at Gettysburg. For something more elaborate, take a look at the English import Blucher boot on the Missouri Boot and Shoe website: http://www.missouribootandshoe.com/index.asp

This particular style is recommended by a reenacting group in New Zealand for their own use in the contemporaneous Maori Wars: http://hicketypip.tripod.com/default.htm