Wearing a Great Coat

[clyons]

I will be attending a civil war Christmas Service and was wondering when wearing a great coat does one wear the cartridge belt and haversack on the outside of the coat or under the coat. Sorry if this question sounds stupid I just want to be accurate.

Chuck Lyons
10 IL Infantry

[50th VA Corporal]

I never could get all my accouterments over the greatcoat, under the cape, to fit comfortably. With a correct weight greatcoat there is the added bulk to contend with.

I too am curious on how others deal with this situation.

[akcampaigner]

Here are some photos of Federal soldiers wearing overcoats and equipment.

[Poor Private]

I was just outside tonight and yesterday during our first annual blizzard. I was having some pictures taken while wearing my uniform. I had no problems wearing my leathers on the outside of my great coat.
The only thought I had was where do you wear your canteen? it was 10* out and water would soon be frozen in the canteen on the outside of a great coat. It would be uncomfortable to wear it under the great coat with the buttons fastened and the leathers on, and not so easy access. Now what do I do with my haversack? Frozen salt pork and anything else that had a high moisture content yummy.

[79th New York]

Do you have the information for that 9th Corp image?

[Rob Weaver]

Good assortment of photos. Yep - your stuff goes outside the overcoat. A remember to loosen the straps on your knapsack. I remember getting numb fingers because the straps were too tight. Yes, your water and food will freeze if far enough from your body heat in cold enough weather, and I think that would have been considered an acceptable cost of soldiering in those days. At the same time, armies tried not to maneuver in the depth of winter, either, so you would be carrying your gear for at most a few hours while walking a guard post. I don't think a corporal of the guard would fault a soldier for carrying his canteen under his overcoat. Any evidence that soldiers carried a canteen of hot liquid (coffee or tea) snugged up under an overcoat, like a hot water bottle?

[johnduffer]

" At the same time, armies tried not to maneuver in the depth of winter, either, so you would be carrying your gear for at most a few hours while walking a guard post. "

It's true winter quarters was the preferred norm but Fort Donelson, Stones River, Fredericksburg and Nashville show that best laid plans... :)

John Duffer

[lincolnsguard]

If you were going to a church service, civilian and most cases militiary service. I'd think your musket and 'couterments should be left with the camp guard. Canteen and haversack on the outside of your coat.

Who brings a gun to church?

[Silas]

Even in winter quarters, there is much activity in the field with picket/guard/outpost, gathering wood, moving supplies, keeping camps orderly and et cetera.

[lincolnsguard]

If you have Guard or Fatigue, you ain't a goin' to church. ;)

Now if someone is holding a service at the "Guardhouse" or during a fatigue, well that's a horse of a different color. But, our initial poster says he's attending a "Christmas Service." I would assume it's an "organized" deal where "Chaplin Joe" or some local Man of the Cloth is holding some type of organized Christmas Church Service. Where he's in camp, your arms and acouterments are stacked and under the Camp Guard. And, I don't see the Grand Guard holding services unless it's some impromptu thing at one of the "reserves."

"Church Call would be sounded and the men formed..."

Historically speaking that is...

[mike51tenn]

Appears possible, but definately puts everything out of kilter.

[billwatson2]

No comment on how to get it done, but aren't these just the greatest coats? No pun intended. It's the warmest coat I own, which I use only in the nastiest weather. I think it's only been out reenacting twice, but it's seen some service during Pennsylvania blizzards with near-zero temps. Stops the wind, the cape sheds a lot of damp if it's snowing, and if it gets really bad just pull the cape over your head and wait for morning in a nice wool cocoon.
Until it drops below freezing, I've found this one is just too darned hot.
Somebody was cold once and said "never again, I'm designing a coat that will fix that." Whoever it was, thank you.

[RJSamp]

No comment on how to get it done, but aren't these just the greatest coats? No pun intended. It's the warmest coat I own, which I use only in the nastiest weather. I think it's only been out reenacting twice, but it's seen some service during Pennsylvania blizzards with near-zero temps. Stops the wind, the cape sheds a lot of damp if it's snowing, and if it gets really bad just pull the cape over your head and wait for morning in a nice wool cocoon.
Until it drops below freezing, I've found this one is just too darned hot.
Somebody was cold once and said "never again, I'm designing a coat that will fix that." Whoever it was, thank you.

We were set up out in the driveway for Halloween this year. As the sun went down every one got colder and colder....I volunteered to get blankets for everyone....and put on the great coat.....WOW, that was warm.

[Rob Weaver]

If I had a choice between coat and blanket over which one to carry and which to send to storage, it would be the coat to carry. I wasn't trying to sound like I believed no one in the Civil War ever got stuck carrying frozen chow - I just think it was one of those daily unpleasantries no one seems to have given much thought about.

[lincolnsguard]

Appears possible, but definately puts everything out of kilter.



Remember, this was the army, both sides. And, there's manuals as to how such things were done. So, "appears possible," should be ignored. What I posted is how camps, both sides were run, by a book, regimented days, Guards and Fatigues, by drum and bugle, and it's all documented.
Somewhere out there, there's a great article called, "A day in the life of the Army of the Potomac." It goes through in detail, hour by hour, what happened in camp, every day.

[DColeman]

Yea I'd agree, my great coat is the warmest thing I own next to my National Ski Patrol jacket (one of those old nasty rust ones to boot)
BTW - love that pic of the guy in the barrell.

[Rob Weaver]

Yea I'd agree, my great coat is the warmest thing I own next to my National Ski Patrol jacket (one of those old nasty rust ones to boot)
BTW - love that pic of the guy in the barrell.
I wonder if he can fit a canteen and haversack under that? :confused:

[Longbranch 1]

It appears that the discussion is more about Federal Issue..,
but you will not go wrong CS with , for lack of a better description, a " Weller " style from Ben Tart.
11 degrees with only a groundcloth under and a 1/2 spread over, and I am toasty. And you gotta love the slit pockets and the hood.

Regards,
Kein Ellis,
26thNC

[Slickrick214]

Here's something I've been wondering especially since we're getting further into winter. Specifically what would a confederate private wear in the winter? Would he still wear his shell jacket or would he be issued a great coat? Or is a great coat something only NCOs and high ranking officers would wear? Now I feel dumb for asking this (I feel should know this after 6 years of re-enacting) but what exactly is the difference between a frock coat, overcoat and great coat and who would wear each type (privates, NCOs, high ranking officers)?

[flattop32355]

Now I feel dumb for asking this (I feel should know this after 6 years of re-enacting) but what exactly is the difference between a frock coat, overcoat and great coat and who would wear each type (privates, NCOs, high ranking officers)?

In a nutshell:
Sack Coat: A blouse for routine/fatigue duties. Basically, a work jacket worn by enlisted men, including NCO's.
Frock Coat: A longer, heavier, dressier jacket. Some units wore them instead of sack coats. More often worn by officers, but not always so.
Shell Jacket: Pretty much a frock coat without the tails/skirt part, making it shorter than a sack coat. Again, an alternate to the sack coat for some units.
Great Coat: A cold weather overcoat. Worn over, not in place of, a frock, sack or shell. Heavier and warmer than most blankets, if you curl up so you don't stick out, and throw the cape over your head.

Supposedly, all enlisted Federal soldiers were issued a great coat, which was stored in warm weather months and returned for the winter. There were variation between infantry and cavalry coats, as was also true for trowsers. There was extra material at the cuffs to fold down over your hands, if needed.

To my knowledge, there was no general issue of great coats to Confederate troops in any theater.

No matter what style coat used, officers on both sides tended towards privately made ones, as this was not included in their equipment issues (they bought their own uniforms), so styling would vary from man to man. Some, like Grant, just went with a plainer style (still probably private purchase) sack coat.

[Slickrick214]

Thanks. So I guess you had to see this question coming next, how correct would it be for a Confederate private to wear a great coat? I know for most of us re-enacting stops in the winter time. We're not out there in the cold everday as they would have been during winter garrison, but what about when we're at cold events like Big Bethal in March or Cedar Creek in October? It can get pretty cold at those events. One year at Cedar Creek we left a pot filled with soup outside on the fire. Well eventually the fire went out and it was so cold that when we came out the next morning the soup was frozen solid and the lid was literally frozen stuck. Now that was a cold re-enactment.

[hiplainsyank]

I don't think soldiers would have taken haversacks and canteens to a Christmas service. Camp photos with soldiers without accouterments show them with nothing at all. Not only no leathers, but no canteen and no haversack. Being much more aware of proper hydration these days modern reenactors are supposed to carry a canteen with them everywhere, and that is a good thing. However, I am pretty sure the real soldiers didn't carry a thing with them to a church service...

That leads me to another pet peeve about haversacks being worn under the belt but that is another discussion that I believe has been beaten like the proverbial horse here...

[flattop32355]

So I guess you had to see this question coming next, how correct would it be for a Confederate private to wear a great coat?

The short answer would be that it's unit specific; some got them, some (possibly most) never did, and many that did got captured Federal ones. I believe it was either Cleburne or Forrest that had his men dye captured ones black so they wouldn't be confused as Federal soldiers and be fired upon by friendly troops.

I'd expect most officers, at least above line officers, would have privately purchased one.

Someone with more knowledge on the subject may be able to shed more light on the subject, but that's my understanding at this time.

[mexwarbob]

What accoutrements to wear with the great coat would be based on what they were doing. In winter quarters; at formation probably none.
Although I do not have them here; the regulations say that on any evolution where you are leaving camp like work detail or picket you are to take your canteen and haversack with you.
Keeping the canteen from freezing is an interesting concept. You probably did not completely fill it so that if it did freeze, the ice would not break the seams. But also recall they had access to resupply, we do not.
A pard of mine did a field mod to the standard fed canteen and resewed the strap so that it rode in the two side holders. He removed the woolen covering and would cook is coffee by hanging it close (not to close) to a fire. He would also use it as a field expedient hot water bottle on a couple of events we did in the freezing season.

[Artyman]

The wife and I spent Christmas this year in Colonial Williamsburg. I wore my wool greatcoat the whole time! Not only was it warm, but many folks approached me to comment upon the subject. Some asked where they could get one! As you may remember, Williamsburg got hit by that big snowstorm over Christmas. We were right in the worst of it. When we headed for home the Mustang still had 10" of snow on it! Anyhow, the coat served me well, and many of the other visitors there at CW were wearing modern coats and jackets but were shivering and colder and more uncomfortable than I!

I wear my stuff outside the coat and under the cape. That's why straps and belts are adjustable!

The Confeds got a few coats, but many were captured and there was an organized effort to have them dyed black since the blue often caused friendly fire problems. They were prized in either case and more often than not the first thing taken from a Union POW by his Reb captor.

I would not be surprised to hear that grey CS greatcoats might be an "ism"!

Harry

[Silas]

The Confeds got a few coats, but many were captured and there was an organized effort to have them dyed black since the blue often caused friendly fire problems. They were prized in either case and more often than not the first thing taken from a Union POW by his Reb captor.

Those are two, fairly strong statements.

The "dyed black" topic occurs with regular frequency on this forum and the a/c. There is a kernel of truth to the idea based upon that order from Gen. Forrest fairly late in the war, but it doesn't apply to all theaters of the war at all times of the war to all branches of service.

Some authority which shows the theft of overcoats was a general practice would be appreciated. In a knee jerk sort of way, it is certainly possible ; however, some period accounts would help add some color to your naked statement.

[Artyman]

Silas, I have neither the time or the patience to dig up the quotes and references you so nobly request. Suffice it to say that you are correct about one thing though, I did read references to my statements on AC and this forum. As to all the things I have read over the last 40 years about this subject, well, there is a consensus generally that some coats were issued, but with the generally warmer weather in the South there wasn't as much need for these and at any rate it was early war and later there wasn't the material to make them from in great numbers. I don't have specifics about that either other than I can read and I have read. Lets leave it to someone more versed in finding and digging up these things. I suppose you also want proof I was at Colonial Williamsburg too. My word should be enough to settle that. I own a jean wool greatcoat too. The only documentation I have for that is the word of the guy at Regimental Quartermaster in Gettysburg. That works for me. That hooded "Weller" greatcoat that Daily and Ben Tart sell is jean wool and looks like the "Wind Breakers" we had back in the 60's. They both say it is copied from an original. I haven't seen it either, but I respect Ben and his word and I'd buy his coat if I didn't already have two. While it is true that there are several references to the dyed black deal, I admit that I haven't read anywhere how these actually came out, other than an article years ago written buy a guy who tried it himself using natural dyes that were available in 1860. His came out alright according to his article. That mag is long gone so I can't pull it out and reference it. The POW thing came from a book about Confederate POW Camps and Andersonville that I read in the Spring of 2009 prior to Pat Skeese' attempt to stage an Andersonville event up here in Ohio. I don't have the book, I return what I borrow, but next time I see Frank I'll ask him about it.

Have a nice day Silas ;)

Harry

[Silas]

FYI, that wasn't an attack upon you. Statements like the ones you made are part of reenacting lore and are told so frequently they are accepted as uncontroverted fact. If the portion about black dyed overcoats had not been questioned, it would have lead to the inevitable question about how to do it.

Similarly, the portion about Confederate captors stealing overcoats from prisoners is a step away from the ragged Rebel, lost cause myth. The overwhelming majority of the unfortunate Federals who ended up in Andersonville were captured during the active campaign season which means overcoats had already been ordered to the rear. Some still went forward, but as a percentage of total troops involved, not that many would have gone forward. Troops are just starting to be reissued their overcoats by the time Andersonville commences to close. So, what is the source of all these coats worn by those guards at Andersonville and every stop along the way to there?

Once again, it's not a personal attack upon you. It's the bold, but unsubstantiated, statement of fact with which I have a problem.

[Poor Private]

Exerpt taken from "The Bold Cavaliers" By Dee Alexander Brown:
OPn a raid to Hartsville Morgan promisied his men horses and overcoats as a reward for going on the expedition, and when the first federal cavalry appeared in view Morgan shouted to them: "Boys yonder are those horses I've been promising you! An hour later almost 2,000 peisoners were taken among those were the 105th, 108th Ohio inf. the 2nd Indiana Cav. 12th ind. Battery. To optain the overcoats promised Morgan ordered the 104th Ill. drawn up in a line and given a command "104th Illionois, attention Come out of them overcoats!" "The overcoats", reported Private Petticord, were dyed black and worn by our men afterwards.
This is all on pages 139-140.
Later in January 1863 Rosecrans composed a indignant message relating to Morgan's actions in taking the overcoats frot the 104th. "Wether your idea of humanity consists of robbing them of thier overcoats I know not," but such they assure me was the treatment they recieved from your troops". Rosecrans also added a repetitive complaint that Morgan's cavalry did not always wear recognizable confederate uniforms.
To This Bragg replied that "we aim to clothe them as uniformly as the exigencies of our situation will admit. Whenever you will afford us the facilities to obtain the requisite material, we shall be most happy to make the desired change. In the meantime we shall use the best to be procured" Bragg considered the best to be procured were union overcoats, and the best means were of procuring was in capturing the wearer.
Page 162-162 of the same book.
And it was Braxton Bragg who issued the order to dye the overcoats black not Forrest.

[bob 125th nysvi]

you wear the accoutrements outside the coat so that they are readily accessible.

Going to services you leave the junk in the tent. Them was God-Fearing people back then. While they happily kill each other thinking god was on their side they weren't bringing weapons into Church.