Wartorn 1861-2010

[Bill_Cross]

I just saw this shattering documentary on HBO and I strongly recommend it for those who have access to the channel or can put it in their future Netflix queue. The material about the Civil War is devastating, including some photos I have not seen before. A statistic said that something like 40% of insane asylum inmates in the late 1800s were Civil War vets, and the shocking information goes right up to today's Iraq and Afghanistan deployments. There is a video of a car-bomb IED that is enough to leave one shaken.

It's not for the faint-hearted or for youngsters. But the Rowdy Pards have had members over there, and the film certainly helps those of us who haven't been there better understand the horrors of violent combat.

[MarkTK36thIL]

I'll make it easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COUmEcmB7vA&feature=&p=9B8FE42942FFFB37&index=0&playnext=1

[Bill_Cross]

That video then "loops" into the next portion, so I suspect at some point HBO is going to pull it.

[Blair]

For those wishing for the "true immersion experience"... there are lessons that can be learned here.
I hope this thread survives Moderation.

[FloridaHoosier]

For those wishing for the "true immersion experience"... there are lessons that can be learned here.
I hope this thread survives Moderation.

So far so good on this topic. Even with the coverage of other time periods, the information is germane to the overall "experience" of combat and service no matter the period. As long as the discussion is regarding CW or material that is equivelant to what a CW vet experienced, its good here. Modern political comments or material that doesn't relate to what we do here aren't.

[Blair]

There are many members on this forum who have "real time" Military experiences, form several "real time" Wars.
None come from the actual period in time this hobby represents. Go figure?
My point, is this is a "hobby"!
Quit trying to make it real!
The out come and reality is not pleasant, in any Historical or Political context.
And just for those that have "never" served... this thread may offer some idea into that little bit of reality.

[Bill_Cross]

Quit trying to make it real!
That's a rather large brush to paint over things, Blair. I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm not sure what you would want for a take-away.

Many of us try to recreate the conditions and mindset of the period, not because we're emotional vampires, but to understand better what THEY went through. I can only admire the Boys of 186X given the conditions they lived (and died) in.

And just for those that have "never" served... this thread may offer some idea into that little bit of reality.
I can't imagine anyone in today's YouTube and "You Are There" video world thinking war is anything but all ****.

[hanktrent]

My point, is this is a "hobby"!
Quit trying to make it real!
The out come and reality is not pleasant, in any Historical or Political context.
And just for those that have "never" served... this thread may offer some idea into that little bit of reality.

I thought that education was one of the widely accepted purposes of the hobby.

Surely those who see living history as a way to provide insight and education, shouldn't be expected to abandon that goal and turn it over to forum threads and HBO specials instead.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Blair]

Hank,

I am not suggesting any educational parameters be forsaken or abandoned.
I am not suggesting any research parameters be forsaken or abandoned.

What I am saying is that Wars kill people, destroy families and friend many years after the conflict is over and done with according to the rest of the world.
This is what this you-tub document shows. History or Political background has no meaning in this respect.
How would you suggest this type of immersion concept be depicted within a two to four day event scenario?

[MarkTK36thIL]

I thought this was being discussed for it's education of post-CW soldiers and the effects of battle? Wasn't there a recent court case seeking the release of documents pertaining to CW vets and the causes of their enrollment to mental hospitals?

I'm gonna guess WWII/Korea/Vietnam/GWOT/etc. vets would not think highly upon anyone who wanted to recreate the effects of battle when there are untold numbers of people who have PTSD.

[hanktrent]

What I am saying is that Wars kill people, destroy families and friend many years after the conflict is over and done with according to the rest of the world.
This is what this you-tub document shows. History or Political background has no meaning in this respect.
How would you suggest this type of immersion concept be depicted within a two to four day event scenario?

I'll give two examples, that I still remember vividly from several years ago.

I'd read lots of transcripts of men applying for pensions around 1890ish, when the pension rules relaxed, claiming compensation for lifetime problems with chronic diarrhea that started at the time of the war and caused them ongoing weakness, illness, lack of ability to hold a job, etc. As far as I know, there's no one agreed-upon cause even today, with lots of speculation about both physical and stress-induced causes, including IBS induced by anxiety. Okay, fine. Intellectually, I knew that from research.

At a reenactment, a young man had come home from the war and was staying at an inn. He was a quiet, friendly fellow, though something seemed to be troubling him. One time he turned down most of a meal and didn't eat much. I heard one of the staff ask if anything was wrong with the food, but didn't hear the answer. Since I was in charge of meals, I asked her later if there had been a problem with the food. She laughed and said he'd been embarrassed to admit that it was his fault; he'd been suffering from diarrhea since he got out of the army and didn't have much appetite.

Suddenly, it sunk in what those pension applications meant. This young man would feel that way for the next 30 years. He'd always be worrying about what he could eat, or when his digestive tract would act up, and have to give embarrassing explanations about what was wrong, that others would laugh over, because he couldn't sit down to enjoy a meal like normal people. For the rest of his life.

His portrayal brought home to me the real impact of what those pension applications really meant, that I used to think of as just old men whining about diarrhea to get a few bucks a month.

The other example was a man portraying a successful lawyer. In the evening, there was some idle conversation, including some of the men talking about the Mexican War. I don't remember what they were saying, but the lawyer suddenly walked away from the conversation and went off by himself to another part of the yard.

I wandered over, since I wasn't particularly interested in the others' conversation. He was obviously upset, though trying not to show it. "I had to walk away," he said. "They were talking about the war." I asked him if he was in the Mexican War too, and he said yes. That's about all he would say. He turned the conversation to something else, and after a bit seemed to calm down and cheer up, but he wouldn't go back to the rest of the group until they were obviously talking about something else.

Those portrayals certainly didn't hit one over the head like a reenactor screaming while being dragged off to a period insane asylum. But I can remember them vividly after four or five years, long after I've forgotten the details of other events, so I'd say they were effective in accomplishing their goals, at least for me.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Blair]

Hank,

One of my favorite quotes, and only slightly out of context due to the Authors birth date...

"God and the Soldier, we adore,
In time of danger, not before.
The danger passed and all things righted,
God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."
~Rudyard Kipling~ (1865-1936)

This Statement is very real throughout all of "this" Nations History of various Wars. Not just within Rudyard Kiping life span, but it seems to be an issue in other Countries during this time period as well.

[johnduffer]

" A statistic said that something like 40% of insane asylum inmates in the late 1800s were Civil War vets "

An interesting book on this aspect is Eric Dean's SHOOK OVER H__L - POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS, VIETNAM, AND THE CIVIL WAR.

[Blair]

John,

Is it not amazing that it took over two hundred years to come up with a name to a syndrome that has effected serving service men in this Nation alone?
What can the "non serving" American public be thinking?

[Elaine Kessinger]

Each war and conflict has had it's name for the same syndrome... and the terms they use are reflective of how the condition was viewed at the time.

It is in this time of mental health labels that we seek to formalize the terms we apply to various syndromes of which our ancestors were very aware, but considered differently.

I will second the endoresement of "Shook Over ****..." for further reading.

P.S. Mr. Taylor- I hope you are not suggesting that warriors of other countries do not suffer from PTSD after an armed conflict. They most certainly DO. Neither is PTSD only seen in military and war. By it's current definition, it has been seen in survivors of many varied stress related sitautions.

[hanktrent]

Neither is PTSD only seen in military and war. By it's current definition, it has been seen in survivors of many varied stress related sitautions.

Exactly. It's a condition that affects people, period. It's not like "the 'non serving' American public" has no idea what it's all about.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[GaWildcat]

Exactly. It's a condition that affects people, period. It's not like "the 'non serving' American public" has no idea what it's all about.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

They might know what it is, but until they have to experience it for themselves, they don't know what it's all about.

[Blair]

"P.S. Mr. Taylor- I hope you are not suggesting that warriors of other countries do not suffer from PTSD after an armed conflict. They most certainly DO. Neither is PTSD only seen in military and war. By it's current definition, it has been seen in survivors of many varied stress related sitautions."

No Mama. That is not what I am suggesting at all?
Yes, you are correct "survivors of many varied stress related situations" do indeed suffer from the symptoms of PTSD, as it is currently defined.
However, unless I am am very much mistaken in my understanding of this thread, it relates to Veterans of the conflicts posted.

[hanktrent]

They might know what it is, but until they have to experience it for themselves, they don't know what it's all about.

Not sure where you're going with that, but oddly enough, I've run across a cold undercurrent from veterans, toward anyone else who suffers from "their" symptoms. As a male, I've found it difficult to fit in with my peers in any kind of support group, since they're dominated by veterans around here and they don't seem very accepting of anyone with PTSD who didn't contract it as a veteran. Women's groups seem more welcoming to abused wives and rape victims.

But in reenacting, we're all portraying things we've never experienced exactly, and we're all portraying people other than ourselves with whom we're supposedly trying to empathize, since none of us grew up in the 19th century. Life experience may have given some people more natural insight than others, but on the other hand, empathy and study may give others more ability to do a well-rounded historic portrayal in context.

In the example I gave in the post above, about the lawyer, I told him after the event how well I thought he did and how I appreciated his portrayal. Since I was portraying someone without PTSD, during the event my attitude could only be, "what an odd fellow."

The irony was amusing, especially because just a few days ago, I had to walk out of a Subway store the same way, after a stranger blind-sided me by tapping my arm hard, to greet me for some reason as he walked past me. I can handle things fine when I'm prepared for anything, like at events, traveling, etc., but I made the mistake of thinking I'd be safe, just standing in line to get a sub.

So I have a personal interest in seeing that those who suffered from what we now recognize as PTSD, aren't forgotten when reenactors try to remember the past.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[GaWildcat]

Hank,

Sorry if that came off as cold.. wasn't meant to be. I was just trying to say that until someone has a traumatic experience and is effected by PTSD, be it by combat, rape, accident, abuse, etc etc, they wont really KNOW the effects of it.. People with out it, know what it is, but not what it can do to the sufferer, and to what degree..

My apologies for sounding cocky... it was not my intent.

I think its great that the effects of combat on individuals is being interpreted.. That is fantastic. It makes the boys more human, and not just pictures in books. I thank you for that.

[hanktrent]

I think its great that the effects of combat on individuals is being interpreted.. That is fantastic. It makes the boys more human, and not just pictures in books.
No apologies necessary! I totally agree with the above. I think that showing the total human cost of war--in a way that gets the idea across without seeming silly, overdramatized, of whatever--is important, but it's hard to do. The moments I mentioned certainly "worked" in context, but mostly because I was lucky enough to be there at the right time and place to see some great interpretation. How can it be done for the general public or for large groups, as effectively as the HBO special does? I don't know, but I'd love to see ideas.

And don't even get me started on long-term physical disabilities caused by wounds and illness--something that gets overlooked when the wounded wander off to the sutlers and the campfire after a few minutes in the surgical demonstration, while the men they were portraying looked ahead to weeks or months of slow recovery. Though that's something I fortunately don't have any personal experience with, being lucky enough to be in good health.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[TheQM]

Interesting thread.

Over the years and wars, not only the names for PTSD, but the treatments have changed. Not to mention there are actually two different issues; the immediate effects of extreme stress and the long term effects.

Armies have attempted to address the short term effects of stress, at least since World War One. If only to keep soldiers in the field and out of mental hospitals.

In one way, many Civil War soldiers had an advantage over soldiers in later wars. They brought a social network along with them when they marched off to "see the elephant".

[Blair]

Bill,

Seeing the "elephant" is something that simply cannot be explained until one has had the chance to see for themselves, just what one looks like.
Descriptions of such a creature, alone, just do not do justice to what experiencing the real thing is like.

PTSD is something that can and does effect many people and for many reasons. It is not something that should be slighted by anyone for any reason. Especially by those who have know idea what seeing elephant means to those that have.

[TheQM]

Bill,

Seeing the "elephant" is something that simply cannot be explained until one has had the chance to see for themselves, just what one looks like.

Blair,

And, very few folks who've seen the critter can agree on exactly what he looks like. Sort of depends on your view at the time.