First Sgt. also known as Orderly Sgt.

[sigman]

Heres a qustion I could use help on. I know in the revised Regs. of 1863 pg. 19 rule 80 calls the 1st sgt. the orderly sgt. Where else can I find proof of the rank of 1st sgt. being called orderly sgt.? I was always under the impression that the 1st sgt. is the orderly sgt.

Andy Siganuk 12th NJVI, Co. K

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

In short, yes.

Kautz' "Customs of Service," p. 288 -- "Captains have the exclusive right to select their First or Orderly Sergeant, from the Sergeants."

[Tom Scoufalos]

I always took the two terms to reflect the induvidual's two roles...the "first" title reflecting his seniority and physical position in line; the second his administrative function. I have a feeling that at some prior time the terms may have been more disparate, but by the time our era comes along, the terms are fully interchangeable.

[PMB1861]

I'm on the road for work this week so I don't have references handy.

A point of clarification, I concur with the distinction between an 'Orderly Sergeant' intending the senior Sergeant of a Company responsible for the conduct of the enlistedmen and their performance of duty and the 'First Sergeant' as the short hand for a particular individual with duties in Company and Battalion Drill.

Although much smaller in numbers, the US Marines continued to use the rank of 'Orderly Sergeant' throughout the Civil War to denote the senior Sergeant in a ship's detachment because the need to refer to him as a 'First Sergeant' was not as great because Company and Battalion Drill were not as heavily emphasised in the Marines in their ship board duties. However the need to select and reward the added responsibility was greater because often these Orderly Sergeants were the senior Marine aboard a war ship and had sole responsibility for the care and deportment of the Marine Detachment.

[flattop32355]

Would I be correct in thinking that Orderly Sergeant is an older term than First Sergeant, possibly from British army practices?

[johnduffer]

Scott's MILITARY DICTIONARY has:

ORDERLY SERGEANTS. The first sergeant of a company is so called. On hearing the drum beat for orders, orderly sergeants repair to the adjutant's office, and, having taken down the orders in writing, they are immediately to show them to the officers of their company, and to warn the men for duty.

[WestTN_reb]

Here's something to throw another twist in things. From Hardee's Rifle and Light Infantry Tactics, 1855:



TITLE FIRST
ARTICLE FIRST
Post of Company Officers, Sergeants, and Corporals:

14. The first sergeant in the rear rank, touching 'with the left elbow and covering the captain. In the manœuvres he will be denominated covering sergeant, or right guide of the company.

Basically, the First Sergeant had three titles that were used depending on what he was doing. First Sergeant pertains to his seniority in the company, Orderly Sergeant pertains to his administrative function, and Covering Sergeant pertains to his combat function.

Hope that's as clear as mud now.:)

[flattop32355]

If I'm correct, Covering Sergeant merely means that he covers, or stands behind, the Captain in company formation. When the Captain moves out of the line of battle, he moves forward to the front rank to keep the Captain's space filled until his return. He also moves back behind the company with the Captain when it is firing. He may also serve as a guide on the line at times.

[johnduffer]

SCOTT'S has a covering corporal, he stands behind the second sergeant (called the closing sergeant in this case) in the leftmost company of the battalion.

[Silas]

The covering sergeant and covering corporal concepts are also noted in LeGal's School of the Guides. Within the companies, he does not mention first sergeants, second sergeants or orderly sergeants. He uses the much more visual terms of right and left guides.

LeGal should be a mandatory read for all nco's and officers.

[johnduffer]

I didn't think about LeGal but Silas is exactly right, the "covering" terms are to provide consistency and eliminate confusion describing movements (i.e. the first sergeant might be sick that day and another sergeant is "covering", etc). I don't believe you would address the first/orderly sergeant directly as covering sergeant.

[1sgtscot]

Another level of confusion sets in when history books are written that try to explain the issue. I am currently reading Yankee Cavlrymen written by John W. Rowell (1971). He says he got interested by reading his grandfathers diary. The book is about a volunteer Pennsylvania cavalry group that fought in the west (Tennessee). In a chapter describing 'boot camp 1861 model' he describes the makeup of a regiment and company;

"The regiment was made up of twelve companies. Each company had a captain, a first lieutenant, and a second lieutenant as commissioned officers. These officers were supportted by eight sergeants and eight corporals. Heading the sergeants was a master sergeant and a commissary sergeant. The men called the latter 'the orderly sergeant.' Each company had a blacksmith, a farrier, a saddler, a wagoner, and two buglers."

A few paragraphs later he indicates each regiment had as enlisted men on the regimental staff "a sergeant major, a quartermaster sergeant, a commissary sergeant, a wagonmaster, a saddler, a chief bugler, and a hospital steward"

I assume the master sergeant above is the same thing we have been discussing as 'first sergeant' but now I am really confused. Is there a commissary sergeant at the company level also called the orderly sergeant and another one at the regimental level and can this be the same person filling all three roles?

Sgt Scott

[sigman]

Another level of confusion sets in when history books are written that try to explain the issue. I am currently reading Yankee Cavlrymen written by John W. Rowell (1971). He says he got interested by reading his grandfathers diary. The book is about a volunteer Pennsylvania cavalry group that fought in the west (Tennessee). In a chapter describing 'boot camp 1861 model' he describes the makeup of a regiment and company;

"The regiment was made up of twelve companies. Each company had a captain, a first lieutenant, and a second lieutenant as commissioned officers. These officers were supportted by eight sergeants and eight corporals. Heading the sergeants was a master sergeant and a commissary sergeant. The men called the latter 'the orderly sergeant.' Each company had a blacksmith, a farrier, a saddler, a wagoner, and two buglers."
Sgt Scott

Maybe the master sgt. is a mis-print meaning quartermaster sgt.?
Andy Siganuk, 12th NJVI