chevrons

[BigDuke634]

how far down from the top of the shoulder should the chevron be?

[flattop32355]

I assume you're speaking of corporal's or sergeant's stripes?

The point should rest just a bit above the elbow, so it doesn't distort when your forearm is raised.

If you look at period pictures, you'll see some variation, but that's where most of them seem to be.

And don't sweat it of they don't match perfectly on the positioning.

[Micah Trent]

From Kautz' Customs of Service for Non-Commissioned Officers and Soldiers (1864)

"Chevrons.

"1577. The rank of non-commissioned officers will be marked by chevrons upon both sleeves of the uniform coat and overcoat, above the elbow, of silk or worsted binding one-half an inch wide, same color as the edging on the coat, points down, as follows:—

"1578. For a sergeant major — three bars and an arc, in silk.

"1579. For a quartermaster sergeant — three bars and a tie, in silk.

"1580. For an ordnance sergeant — three bars and a star, in silk.

"1581. For a hospital steward — a half chevron of the following description—viz.: of emerald green cloth, one and three-fourths inches wide, running obliquely downward from the outer to the inner seam of the sleeve, and at an angle of about thirty degrees with a horizontal, parallel to, and one-eighth of an inch distant from, both the upper and lower edge, an embroidery of yellow silk, one-eighth of an inch wide, and in the centre a "caduceus" two inches long, embroidered also with yellow silk, the head toward the outer seam of the sleeve.

"1582. For a first sergeant—three bars and a lozenge, in worsted.

"1583. For a sergeant—three bars, in worsted.

"1584. For a corporal—two bars, in worsted.

"1585. For a pioneer—two crossed hatchets of cloth, same color and material as the edging of the collar, to be sewn on each arm above the elbow in the place indicated for a chevron (those of a corporal to be just above and resting on the chevron), the head of the hatchet upward, its edge outward, of the following dimensions, viz.:

Handle—four and one-half inches long, one-fourth to one-third of an inch wide. Hatchet—two inches long, one inch wide at the edge.

"1586. To indicate service.—All non-commissioned officers, musicians, and privates, who have served faithfully for the term of five years, will wear, as a mark of distinction, upon both sleeves of the uniform coat, below the elbow, a diagonal half chevron, one-half an inch wide, extending from seam to seam, the front end nearest the cuff, and one-half an inch above the point of the cuff to be of the same color as the edging on the coat. In like manner, an additional half chevron, above and parallel to the first, for every subsequent five years of faithful service; distance between each chevron one-fourth of an inch. Service in war will be indicated by a light or sky-blue stripe on each side of the chevron for artillery, and a red stripe for all other corps, the stripe to be one-eighth of an inch wide."

[Ms.Reb]

I do have one question regarding chevrons. Somewhere I have seen that first sergeant's chevrons had the lozenge separate or detached from the stripes. I'm not sure where Ive seen this. But if my memory serves me well it was on a CSMC research site. If someone can confirm or debunk this? I know sutlers only sell them as one piece and Ive never seen the lozenge as a separate item.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

I do have one question regarding chevrons. Somewhere I have seen that first sergeant's chevrons had the lozenge separate or detached from the stripes. I'm not sure where Ive seen this. But if my memory serves me well it was on a CSMC research site. If someone can confirm or debunk this? I know sutlers only sell them as one piece and Ive never seen the lozenge as a separate item.

Considering that the majority of CS chevrons are lengths of tape sewn directly to the garment, and not the "pre-ranked sew-and-go" patches most mainstream sutlers sell, the lozenge certainly would be separate.

On the Federal side, where the practice of "pre-ranked" patches is more commonplace, there are instances of lozenges being applied separately by 1st Sergeants, presumably upon receipt of the nomination. The Wittemore jacket in the Troiani collection is a good example of this, with the lozenge being independent of the rest of the chevrons. The later-war evidence of 1st Sergeants going low-key by using ONLY the lozenge as a badge of rank further bears out the historical existence of separate lozenges. And, of course, any good vendor would make a set; some offer them as regular production items.

CS are lucky in that a roll of twill tape can make one anything from Corporal to Deputy Brigade Staff Button-Shiner Sergeant.

[79th New York]

On the Federal side, where the practice of "pre-ranked" patches is more commonplace, there are instances of lozenges being applied separately by 1st Sergeants, presumably upon receipt of the nomination. The Wittemore jacket in the Troiani collection is a good example of this, with the lozenge being independent of the rest of the chevrons. The later-war evidence of 1st Sergeants going low-key by using ONLY the lozenge as a badge of rank further bears out the historical existence of separate lozenges. And, of course, any good vendor would make a set; some offer them as regular production items.


On federal insignia: All of the conjecture in the hobby is on thin ice without having more examples. We have very few original examples to study along with a hand full of images candid or otherwise that show exceptions to the rule. I think even the movement to arched chevrons is a knee jerk reaction to sutler row goods. Such is the hobby I suppose....we might see a pendulum swing back sometime soon.

Its nice to see the silk insignia out in the hobby though. That except is great Mr. Trent

[RJSamp]

On federal insignia: All of the conjecture in the hobby is on thin ice without having more examples. We have very few original examples to study along with a hand full of images candid or otherwise that show exceptions to the rule. I think even the movement to arched chevrons is a knee jerk reaction to sutler row goods. Such is the hobby I suppose....we might see a pendulum swing back sometime soon.

Its nice to see the silk insignia out in the hobby though. That except is great Mr. Trent


Having seen dozens of photos and paintings of ACW Federal Chevrons, I don't understand your statement "hand full of images"....admittedly my hands aren't that big....and if the photos aren't in frames you could stack a 'ton' of pictures in a small amount of space.

What exactly are you saying here?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"All of the conjecture in the hobby is on thin ice without having more examples."

??

In brief and to over-generalize...

ACW Federal chevron materials, styles, placement, and even absence are abundant in surviving NCO photographic and artistic images.

I have read nothing here that even my own personal reference collection, er, handful, of chevron images would not support. (But I would add chevrons seemingly crudely cut from sky blue trousers to the list.)

Others' mileage, but not historical record, will vary...

CHS

[Ms.Reb]

I am particularly interested in early war impression of the CSMC. Since all of the troops in the CSMC at one point were federal and retained there federal uniforms to some extent until Confederate uniform regulations were drafted for the CSMC. There is speculation on the color of the stripes and background. To my understanding they were yellow with red backing. On the other hand I have seen CSMC reenactors with black stripes and gray background. Would this be a late war impression?

Thanks guys for the help.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I am particularly interested in early war impression of the CSMC. Since all of the troops in the CSMC at one point were federal and retained there federal uniforms to some extent until Confederate uniform regulations were drafted for the CSMC. There is speculation on the color of the stripes and background. To my understanding they were yellow with red backing. On the other hand I have seen CSMC reenactors with black stripes and gray background. Would this be a late war impression?

Thanks guys for the help.

Just curious as to where you found the information that all of the CSMC troops were Federal prior to the war? As for anything related to CS Marines, do a Google search for books/articles by Donnelly.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

U.S.

http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/1.jpg http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/2.jpg
http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/3.jpg
http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/4.jpg

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/5.jpg
http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/6.jpg
http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/7.jpg
http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/8.jpg

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

CS infantry example.

http://myrtle-avenue.com/hires/Chevrons/cs.jpg

[Spinster]

Marc,

I'm perceiving the application in post #13 to be cut on the bias from whole cloth, not from tape. Is that what you see?

In post #12, lower image, man on right, I'm perceiving stripes made onto cloth backer, and then tacked rather poorly to the coat, almost as a 'hurry up, the photographer is here' for a man with newly conferred rank.

I'm normally 'only the seamstress' on these sorts of things, pitched a coat and some insignia while the Bugler is playing, by a man standing on one foot trying to change his socks before marching and hoping to wear his new rank. Or the occassional 'do you have any tape?' right after breakfast.

I'm always interested in the possibilites.

I'd also like to see an example of stripes 'crudely cut out of sky blue' if someone has one. Its amazing how many scraps and worn out trousers end up in my stash.

[Ms.Reb]

Just curious as to where you found the information that all of the CSMC troops were Federal prior to the war? As for anything related to CS Marines, do a Google search for books/articles by Donnelly.

I did not mean to imply all the CS Marines were from the ranks of the USMC. I meant to say some were and they retained there some of there equipment. Some of the information I have found came from http://navyandmarine.org/
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

[Blair]

Mrs Lawson,

#13 would seem, from my view point, as if the Chevrons are embroidered on and the lozenge is indeed cut on the bias from whole cloth.
Funny, it does not appear to be silk thread embroidery either. But then some of the worsted wool and worsted silk tapes can be difficult to distinguish from one another.

A number of photos have come up on various forums that indicate Chevrons may have come to troops in the field already on some sort of prepared backer material. These being tacked down/on somewhat hastily by those wearing/authorized to wear them.

On the AC forum some images were posted showing what looked to be Chevron's made from something like light blue trouser material. I don't remember the title of the thread or I would have posted it here. (mostly Yankee stuff)
These Chevron's also appeared to have been rather hastily sown on too. Pretty crud and greatly over sized acording to Regulation specs.

I think most of these guys would have known who their Officers and NCO's were... Perhaps, "some" of this is stuff they did for photos? or parade or reviews? it hard to say now.

[79th New York]

Having seen dozens of photos and paintings of ACW Federal Chevrons, I don't understand your statement "hand full of images"....admittedly my hands aren't that big....and if the photos aren't in frames you could stack a 'ton' of pictures in a small amount of space.

What exactly are you saying here?

The soldiers and Sailors system has 6.3 million names on record. For the sake of discussion, lets say half of those are duplicates, navy, ect. Dozens of examples are a good start but statistically pretty bad. 3.2 Million soldiers and out of that how many NCOs? Arched seems to be the "cool" thing in the hobby and Im wondering how prevalent they actually were in an military of "3.2" million ;)

The higher end sutlers offer one style of chevron. Arched... Im saying that maybe there should be a wider range of chevron styles represented in the hobby. (On the progressive/"Hardcore" end of the hobby)

[Blair]

Ms. Reb,

Through the research I have done within CS Naval Service Regulations, much was copied directly from US Naval Regs. from earlier/pre War Regulations changes.
The CS Regs. changing things in those publications like U S, to C S, and blue uniforms to gray. Many other Uniform items remain very much the same, for the most part.
This, of course, does not mean that these guidelines (Regulations) were able to be meant with at all times and places throughout the War. There can be much variation in uniformity

Early in the War, CS Marines had access to stores of U S Marine clothing from known Naval Supply Stations/ Installations such as Portsmouth, Va. It is a small branch of service so these stores of uniform items may not last long.
I have found CSMC personnel were as proud of their unique Marine heritage as were their USMC counterparts. Perhaps not as long served, but equally as proud of their service. Many of the various rank insignia adopted for the old service, the CSMC will try to maintain. If not in actual colors, they will try to match things like NCOs' chevrons by placing the "point' of the chevron at the top of the sleeve rather than just above the elbow bend of the sleeve. Just the rivers of the Infantry Chevron for NCOs'. Making this small branch of service somewhat easier to Identify from the Army.
Other variations within the CS Supply System may also be a factor within the CSMC Service, depending on place and time period.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Silas Corn of the 16th OVI:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/CW16thOHSilasCornchevrons-1.jpg

If I post sometihng like "All of the conjecture about Civil War soldiers wearing shoes is based upon a handful of images of men wearing shoes from out of millions of soldiers who did not wear shoes but never had their photographs taken."

Can I get ye lads to post pictures of soldiers wearing shoes??

Just a-funnin'...

;) :) :)

CHS
Wearer of Shoes Mess

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

The soldiers and Sailors system has 6.3 million names on record. For the sake of discussion, lets say half of those are duplicates, navy, ect. Dozens of examples are a good start but statistically pretty bad. 3.2 Million soldiers and out of that how many NCOs? Arched seems to be the "cool" thing in the hobby and Im wondering how prevalent they actually were in an military of "3.2" million ;)

The higher end sutlers offer one style of chevron. Arched... Im saying that maybe there should be a wider range of chevron styles represented in the hobby. (On the progressive/"Hardcore" end of the hobby)

On the progressive side, there are two prevelant vendors who sell the elliptical (arched) type of chevron, CJ Daley and Sekela, both due to customer demand and the fact that when they began making them, the only commerically available chevrons were the typical sutler-row/import straight chevrons on backers. That being said, there are still several progressive vendors who will make you straight-type chevrons upon request, such as Joe Blunt at J. Blunt Clothiers/Carter and Jasper

[79th New York]

Hallo!



Can I get ye lads to post pictures of soldiers wearing shoes??

Just a-funnin'...

;) :) :)

CHS
Wearer of Shoes Mess

Touche. I just like poking the research bear ;)

[Spinster]

Sometimes you eat the bear.


Sometimes the bear eats you.



Goldilocks Mess