PDA

View Full Version : A woman's place...



bizzilizzit
09-26-2006, 07:50 PM
PG 16-17
It must be apparent to all, that the plow, the fiery courser, the shrill war-bugle, the sword and the battle-axe were not made for woman. The clang of arms, as might contends against might, hewing down thousands upon the bloody field, the roaring cannon, thundering forth its iron shower of death, hurling to their last sleep the bravest hearts that ever struggled for human liberty, are scenes ill suited to the tender nature of woman. Or, would she be a mariner, grappling with the angry storm on the surging bosom of the briny deep, where white-capped mountain waves leap from their ocean-bed and dance among the clouds, mocking the vivid lightening which gleams about their heads and chanting, with the pealing thunder that rolls across their dark blue bosoms, the awful chorus of the storm?
To soothe the cares of man, and throw around the domestic circle a blessed halo of peace and purity; to refine the coarser feelings of man; to sweeten the cup of affliction, trembling lip of distress; to pour “the oil of consolation” into the wounds of the troubled spirit, and mould the infant mind for patriotism, piety and heaven, is her proper sphere and should be her highest ambition. To say that this is not nobility would be a perversion of language, as well of fact and common sense.

THOUGHTS ON DOMESTIC LIFE OR MARRIAGE VINDICATED AND FREE LOVE EXPOSED.
BY NELSON SIZER
NEW YORK 1858

Elizabeth

Trooper Graham
09-26-2006, 08:41 PM
PG 16-17
It must be apparent to all, that the plow, the fiery courser, the shrill war-bugle, the sword and the battle-axe were not made for woman. The clang of arms, as might contends against might, hewing down thousands upon the bloody field, the roaring cannon, thundering forth its iron shower of death, hurling to their last sleep the bravest hearts that ever struggled for human liberty, are scenes ill suited to the tender nature of woman. Or, would she be a mariner, grappling with the angry storm on the surging bosom of the briny deep, where white-capped mountain waves leap from their ocean-bed and dance among the clouds, mocking the vivid lightening which gleams about their heads and chanting, with the pealing thunder that rolls across their dark blue bosoms, the awful chorus of the storm?
To soothe the cares of man, and throw around the domestic circle a blessed halo of peace and purity; to refine the coarser feelings of man; to sweeten the cup of affliction, trembling lip of distress; to pour “the oil of consolation” into the wounds of the troubled spirit, and mould the infant mind for patriotism, piety and heaven, is her proper sphere and should be her highest ambition. To say that this is not nobility would be a perversion of language, as well of fact and common sense.

THOUGHTS ON DOMESTIC LIFE OR MARRIAGE VINDICATED AND FREE LOVE EXPOSED.
BY NELSON SIZER
NEW YORK 1858

Elizabeth

"Woman of the house, where's me tea"

Sean Thorton to Mary Kate Danaher in "The Quiet Man".


"I'll was your clothes, cook for you, mend your clothes, mind the land and the sheep but until I have my dowry that's all your getting"

Mary Kate Danaher to Sean Thorton in 'The Quiet Man"

bizzilizzit
09-26-2006, 08:45 PM
"Woman of the house, where's me tea"

Sean Thorton to Mary Kate Danaher in "The Quiet Man".


"I'll was your clothes, cook for you, mend your clothes, mind the land and the sheep but until I have my dowry that's all your getting"

Mary Kate Danaher to Sean Thorton in 'The Quiet Man"

I LOVE that movie - esp. the part where he drags her across town. And the part where he tosses her on the bed during their wedding night fight and it breaks and the next morn' the matchmaker thinks they was makin' babies.
Elizabeth

Trooper Graham
09-26-2006, 08:57 PM
I LOVE that movie - esp. the part where he drags her across town. And the part where he tosses her on the bed during their wedding night fight and it breaks and the next morn' the matchmaker thinks they was makin' babies.
Elizabeth

I just now canceled my website that had all the "Quiet Man" country photos on it. Hope You got to see them. It seems that since joining this site I have had all kinds of junk and emails with viruses attached. So my home page no longer exist.

Trooper Graham
09-26-2006, 09:07 PM
I just now canceled my website that had all the "Quiet Man" country photos on it. Hope You got to see them. It seems that since joining this site I have had all kinds of junk and emails with viruses attached. So my home page no longer exist.

I just checked and it's still up. It will probably stay up until this last payment has expired so if you have not seen the page "Walking with the Duke" do it before it's gone.

bizzilizzit
09-26-2006, 09:12 PM
I just checked and it's still up. It will probably stay up until this last payment has expired so if you have not seen the page "Walking with the Duke" do it before it's gone.

I HAVE seen it - twice!
Thanks.
Elizabeth

Trooper Graham
09-26-2006, 09:15 PM
I HAVE seen it - twice!
Thanks.
Elizabeth

You may copy and paste any photos you would like to have.

Frenchie
09-27-2006, 09:16 PM
Woman at railway station: "Sir! Sir! Here's a good stick, to beat the lovely lady."
Thornton: (hefting stick) "Thanks."

from The Quiet Man

Trooper Graham
09-27-2006, 09:24 PM
Woman at railway station: "Sir! Sir! Here's a good stick, to beat the lovely lady."
Thornton: (hefting stick) "Thanks."

from The Quiet Man

Bonnet! Bonnet! don't you even mentio......here here now! dontcha be a hittin him until your married and him you....

Michaleen Og Flynn, the Matchmaker and chaparon

hanktrent
09-27-2006, 11:08 PM
... FREE LOVE EXPOSED.
BY NELSON SIZER
NEW YORK 1858


Well, I don't know anything about the movie being quoted, but I'm more curious about the movement that apparently spurred the original author to write.

I know that the free love movement had been in the U.S. for at least a decade by then, but does anyone have some basic information to put Sizer's purpose for writing in context? Was the movement itself waxing or waning by the late 1850s? Were outspoken opponents like Sizer common or uncommon, or increasing or decreasing? Were the anti-free-lovers generally paranoid and angry, like the anti-Mormon and anti-Masonic and anti-foreigner (Know Nothing) folks, or more concerned and caring, like the anti-tight-lacing and anti-doctor (hygienic) folks?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bizzilizzit
09-28-2006, 08:30 AM
I know that the free love movement had been in the U.S. for at least a decade by then, but does anyone have some basic information to put Sizer's purpose for writing in context? Was the movement itself waxing or waning by the late 1850s? Were outspoken opponents like Sizer common or uncommon, or increasing or decreasing? Were the anti-free-lovers generally paranoid and angry, like the anti-Mormon and anti-Masonic and anti-foreigner (Know Nothing) folks, or more concerned and caring, like the anti-tight-lacing and anti-doctor (hygienic) folks?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

The free-love movement was alive and kicking before, during, and after the CW. Believe it or not, most of the outspoken free-lovers were women (Victoria Woodhull being one of them) and most of the outspoken anti-free-lovers were men. Seems odd, from our perspective, but the men felt threatened by the freedom the free-love movement offered women - not just persoanlly, but preofeesionally. It also threatened the "purity" of a woman's womb - the father of a child may actually be passing his fortune to someone else's child.
Elizabeth

hanktrent
09-28-2006, 08:54 AM
The free-love movement was alive and kicking before, during, and after the CW. Believe it or not, most of the outspoken free-lovers were women (Victoria Woodhull being one of them) and most of the outspoken anti-free-lovers were men.

That makes sense to me, if it was tied into the general movement for women to gain more control of their property within marriage. That movement of course was generally led by women.

If the first step is keeping control of your property so it can't be squandered by your drunken husband, then the logical extension would be keeping control of your own body.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

bizzilizzit
09-28-2006, 09:09 AM
That makes sense to me, if it was tied into the general movement for women to gain more control of their property within marriage. That movement of course was generally led by women.

If the first step is keeping control of your property so it can't be squandered by your drunken husband, then the logical extension would be keeping control of your own body.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

I SO agree!
In the 1850's married women were given some property rights, but the husband still had control over most of it. I've read several police reports where a husband has had his wife arrested for stealing because she ran away from him with only the clothes on her back, which he owned. That was a way to keep control of your wife - she couldn't run away from home naked, now could she? She'd be arrested for indecent exposure, inciting a riot, etc!
Also, a man had the right to put his wife in an insane asylum just "because." I read an account of a woman who caught her husband cheating on her and she confronted him about it, which so enraged him (the confronting part) that he had her committed to an insane asylum. She stayed there many years, until his death (her son was unable to get her out earlier). She actually forgave her husband for his actions, as it was wrong of her to question his activities!
Elizabeth

Trooper Graham
09-28-2006, 09:30 AM
She actually forgave her husband for his actions, as it was wrong of her to question his activities!


Elizabeth

...and so she should have. :p :p :p


( I'm in the doghouse now...in the doghouse now. OH! Whoa is me) :lol:

cookiemom
09-28-2006, 09:45 AM
I've been trying really hard to stay out of this one...

[log off, walk away NOW]

Trooper Graham
09-28-2006, 09:56 AM
I've been trying really hard to stay out of this one...

[log off, walk away NOW]

ROTFLMAO...:lol:

Gotta go...end of the month...time to write out all the alimony checks. :-P :-P

hanktrent
09-28-2006, 10:04 AM
I've been trying really hard to stay out of this one...

[log off, walk away NOW]

This is why I don't enjoy reenactments where the campfire conversation is all about reciting movie quotes.

The social dynamics of the period are fascinating and were a large part of the lives of the people we supposedly care enough about to portray. But all it takes is tossing a big rock of mockery or modern agenda in the water, to muddy things so there's no chance of discerning the delicate details clearly.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

NoahBriggs
09-28-2006, 10:57 AM
Gotta chime in with Hank. I was hoping it would become a decent social analysis of womens' status in the country.

Interesting thing on asylums, though. I started reading on Galt's system of moral management. Galt postulated at the hospital in Williamsburg that rather than keep asylum patients locked up, he instituted one-on-one doctor patient ratio, a library, art therapy and openness designed to help the patients confront their illness (whether it was a social construct by modern standards or a real mental disability).

Mental illness is a part of the medical world which does not get a lot of research and press. And what does get mentioned is almost always negative gross generalizations. It's automatically assumed the asylums were used to lock up social riffraff, "retarded people" (special needs people today) and uppity women. The only time I have read that happening was in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth, what with Social Darwinism and social hygienics.

If I remember correctly the Galt system came on the heels of the Dix Reform Movement.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Galt+moral+management&btnG=Search
Search results for the Galt System

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=227192&blobtype=pdf
Article on the use of libraries to assist in patient therapy.

Okay, I've tossed out a few online resources I found on the Galt System. :D I'd be interested in other specific sources which detail that a woman was tossed into an asylum for acting out of turn. We hear about it, but I have yet to read anything on it. (By "specific" I mean not reading "I read somewhere . . .")

bizzilizzit
09-28-2006, 11:28 AM
Women of the Asylum: Voices from Behind the Walls, 1840-1945
by Jeffrey L. Geller (Author) 1995

The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman 1892

The first book contains first person accounts of women who spent time in insane asylums - quite jarring.

The second book is a novel. Though published many years after the war, it shows how women were still being controlled by their husbands.

Elizabeth

bizzilizzit
09-28-2006, 11:38 AM
Forgot another good one:

The Private War of Mrs. Packard
by Barbara Sapinsley 1991

Elizabeth

hanktrent
09-28-2006, 11:51 AM
On the topic of insane asylums generally, here's an account of an outsider's visit to a New York lunatic asylum, published in 1854:

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fharp%2Fharp0009%2F&tif=00663.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABK4014-0009-105

It has an oddly casual viewpoint, but in the end the author praises the treatment of the insane generally, and suggests even more effort should be put into giving them work to occupy their minds. The institution she visits sounds as if it's heavily influenced by Galt's ideas.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Trooper Graham
09-28-2006, 11:53 AM
. :D I'd be interested in other specific sources which detail that a woman was tossed into an asylum for acting out of turn. We hear about it, but I have yet to read anything on it. (By "specific" I mean not reading "I read somewhere . . .")

Here is a website that was created by women on 19th century asylums. It is filled with alot of truths, most all but 'we' can see that today. I found nowhere mentioned that deliberate internmanship by the husband occured. I'm not saying that it did not happen, in all probability it did and more than once since it was a male dominated century and women had no rights.

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~ulrich/femhist/madness.shtml

Carolann Schmitt
09-28-2006, 11:54 AM
At two previous conferences Katie Carroll, an attorney by profession, has given excellent presentations on the legal rights of women and men in regards to marital issues, custody of children, property rights, etc. Her very detailed and documented presentations have discussed several issues inspired by the women's movement. IIRC, her handouts included citations from the original cases. I'll check and post any that might be pertinent to this discussion.

One point we soon realized was that the laws and subsequent treatment of women varied widely, not just from state-to-state but also from county-to-county.

bizzilizzit
09-28-2006, 12:19 PM
I found nowhere mentioned that deliberate internmanship by the husband occured. I'm not saying that it did not happen, in all probability it did and more than once since it was a male dominated century and women had no rights.

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~ulrich/femhist/madness.shtml

The Private War of Mrs. Packard is the story of a woman who lived in Ill. in the 1860's. Her religious beliefs and opinions were different than her husband's, do he declared her insane. When he was unable to get her locked up, he boarded her up in the nursery in their home. She got word out of her captivity and demanded a court hearing. She won and spent the rest of her life trying to change the control husbands had over their wives. She never left him.
Elizabeth

hanktrent
09-28-2006, 12:22 PM
One point we soon realized was that the laws and subsequent treatment of women varied widely, not just from state-to-state but also from county-to-county.

Good point. While Indiana had a reputation as a state where divorces were common and easy, divorce wasn't allowed at all in South Carolina.

Looking for a quick-and-easy citation to show I wasn't just making that up, I found this page http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/books/stowell/ch3.html , which has a long article on the various and changing laws concerning women and marriage.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Trooper Graham
09-28-2006, 12:30 PM
She never left him.

Elizabeth
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!! did she allow him to continue with his conjugal rights. She must have because that was 'law' and a sure way to divorce her then. But in Ireland and the UK , not so long ago, it was divorce grounds if a male wasn't produced also.

ElizabethClark
09-28-2006, 01:09 PM
Mr. Graham, I'm confused. This is not unusual. :)

Did you mean:

Did the lady in question deny her husband the marriage bed to retaliate for his poor treatment of her? And, if she did this, was she breaking a law that could lead to his divorcement from her?

And, if I read correctly, in addition to denying marital favors, the lack of male issue from a union could be used as grounds for divorce in Ireland? I'd really like more information on that--the dominant religions in Ireland in the 19th century wouldn't really allow for divorce on any grounds, though perhaps an annulment based on non-consummation might be arranged, if no children at all had been born to the couple. Can you refer me to any particular books, etc on that line?

I'd have to lean toward Carolann, et al, on the topic of "no rights"--I think that's a pretty large generalization that doesn't hold up well when looking at actual laws, legal cases, social customs, and social movements.

I'm still really confused about the first page of this discussion... it doesn't seem to have a great lot to do with the 19th century, but rather a 20th century movie?

Carolann Schmitt
09-28-2006, 01:51 PM
Good point. While Indiana had a reputation as a state where divorces were common and easy, divorce wasn't allowed at all in South Carolina.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

I was also somewhat surprised to discover that the differences from state-to-state or county-to-county were not distinguished between rights/no rights for women. Some entities afforded women the rights to retain property but not custody of their children; others made divorce relatively simple but made it difficult to take anything away from the marriage except the divorce decree.

Religion also plays a role in divorce and property settlement. Certain Jewish sects make it very easy for a woman to divorce her husband and retain both property and custody of her children; other Jewish sects make it almost impossible.

We're all cautioned to avoid generalities, but I think it is especially true in an area where laws and social custom can change when you cross a small stream.

Trooper Graham
09-28-2006, 02:21 PM
Mr. Graham, I'm confused. This is not unusual. :)

Did you mean:

Did the lady in question deny her husband the marriage bed to retaliate for his poor treatment of her? And, if she did this, was she breaking a law that could lead to his divorcement from her?

And, if I read correctly, in addition to denying marital favors, the lack of male issue from a union could be used as grounds for divorce in Ireland? I'd really like more information on that--the dominant religions in Ireland in the 19th century wouldn't really allow for divorce on any grounds, though perhaps an annulment based on non-consummation might be arranged, if no children at all had been born to the couple. Can you refer me to any particular books, etc on that line?

I'd have to lean toward Carolann, et al, on the topic of "no rights"--I think that's a pretty large generalization that doesn't hold up well when looking at actual laws, legal cases, social customs, and social movements.

I'm still really confused about the first page of this discussion... it doesn't seem to have a great lot to do with the 19th century, but rather a 20th century movie?

Ms Clark, Please understand that I first started reading history books about 1953 so my references were modern at that time. You must also understand that I have spent more time overseas in my life than stateside. When living in other lands my interest about that land compelled me to read all of 'their' books and I made it a point to talk as much as I could to the indiginous race but not just anyone but the 'old' people because they are the ones that remember how it was.
In Ireland religion had alot to do with marital status and it was 'all' against the woman. It wasn't until 1974 that the last Magdeline laundries was shut down and it wasn't until 1992 that the women of Ireland started standing up for themselves when the Bishop Casey scandal hit the news. In the mind of some though things still haven't changed. The old stigma still has a hold that the woman has to endure all and everything. Child bearing and rearing, cooking, cleaning, tending the land and animals and paying the bills. In Ireland all was against the woman and any good catholic could use the church to get his way just like a man could do here through the courts.
Divorce no, annulment yes in ireland and it was always given to the man. Ireland is finally making movies today telling the world how really it was.
Scotland and somewhat Wales treated women much better and most held them in high regard. But, like England, male offspring was a must for the continuation of the bloodline everywhere.
I shall spend a few minutes this evening doing a few searches to find what is easy to find by all and I will get back with you.

Trooper Graham
09-28-2006, 03:18 PM
Mr. Graham, I'm confused. This is not unusual. :)

Did you mean:

Did the lady in question deny her husband the marriage bed to retaliate for his poor treatment of her? And, if she did this, was she breaking a law that could lead to his divorcement from her?

And, if I read correctly, in addition to denying marital favors, the lack of male issue from a union could be used as grounds for divorce in Ireland? I'd really like more information on that--the dominant religions in Ireland in the 19th century wouldn't really allow for divorce on any grounds, though perhaps an annulment based on non-consummation might be arranged, if no children at all had been born to the couple. Can you refer me to any particular books, etc on that line?

I'd have to lean toward Carolann, et al, on the topic of "no rights"--I think that's a pretty large generalization that doesn't hold up well when looking at actual laws, legal cases, social customs, and social movements.

I'm still really confused about the first page of this discussion... it doesn't seem to have a great lot to do with the 19th century, but rather a 20th century movie?

Ms Clark,

the following links might be informative for you.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/FACESFEM.txt

http:www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eamon_Casey

Delia Godric
09-29-2006, 06:18 AM
Here are some of the online sources I have in my notes that discuss women and property rights. The list may be rather long for a post. Many of these are from the MOA sites.


http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext95/pprty10.txt
WHAT IS PROPERTY? : AN INQUIRY INTO THE PRINCIPLE OF RIGHT AND OF GOVERNMENT
P. J. Proudhon
Just take notes from this one

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12044
Sarah and Angelina Grimké: the First American Women Advocates of Abolition and Woman's Rights

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/15204 Women Wage-Earners 130 pages long

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2157 Approx 32 pages long Female Suffrage: a Letter to the Christian Women of America Cooper, Susan Fenimore, 1813-1894

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11672 154 pages long A Short History of Women's Rights

Legal Status of Women in Iowa 1894
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/12049

Holmes Jr., Oliver Wendell, 1841-1935
Title The Common Law
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2449

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABQ7578-0099-4
The Property Rights of Married Women: pp. 34-64 July 1864

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABF2204-0003-8
Scientific American. / Volume 3, Issue 12: pp. 89-96

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABQ0722-0007-57
The Origin and Functions of Civil Government: pp. 530-547

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABK4014-0014-53
Autobiography Of A Single Woman: pp. 363-369


Debates and proceedings in the New-York state convention, for the revision of the constitution. By S. Croswell and R. Sutton, reporters for the Argus.
New York (State) Constitutional convention,
Albany,: Printed at the office of the Albany Argus, 1846.
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/AHM5078.0001.001
Page 214
Page 943
Page 947


Journal of the Constitutional convention of the state of Michigan:
Michigan. Constitutional Convention
Lansing,: R. W. Ingals, state printer, 1850.
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/AEY0659.0001.001
Search Results: 2 matches in full text
Page 44
Page 47


Report of the debates and proceedings of the Convention for the revision of the constitution of the state of Indiana. 1850.
Indiana. Constitutional Convention
Indianapolis, Ind.: [A. H. Brown, printer to the Convention], 1850[-51]
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/AEW7738.0002.001

Report of the debates and proceedings of the Convention for the revision of the constitution of the state of Ohio. 1850-51:
Columbus,: S. Medary, printer to the Convention, 1851.
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/AEY0639.0001.001
Page 138
Page 746 - Comprehensive Index


Journal of the Constitutional convention of the commonwealth of Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Constitutional Convention
Boston,: White & Potter, printers, 1853.
Page 87
Page 557
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AEY0583.0001.001

Official report of the debates and proceedings in the State convention : assembled May 4th, 1853, to revise and amend the constitution of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Massachusetts. Constitutional Convention
Boston : White & Potter, printers, 1853.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AEW7439.0002.001
Page 797 - Comprehensive Index
Page 266
Page 384
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/AEW7439.0002.001
Page 219
Page 493

Female Suffrage (Editor's Study)
The Ladies' repository: a monthly periodical, devoted to literature, arts, and religion. / Volume: 27, Issue: 8, Aug 1867, pp. 504-506
Making of America Journal Articles
Female Suffrage (Editor's Study)
pp. 504-506
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/acg2248.1-27.008

Marriage in the United States, by Auguste Carlier ... Tr. from the French by B. Joy Jeffries
Carlier, Auguste, 1803-1890.
Publication Info: Boston,, New York,: De Vries, Ibarra & Co.;, Leypoldt and Holt, 1867.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AFU3011.0001.001
Page 58


Woman in the nineteenth century, and kindred papers relating to the sphere, condition, and duties of woman.
Fuller, Margaret, 1810-1850.
New York,: The Tribune association, 1869.
Making of America Books
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AED7876.0001.001
Also available in book form - published by Dover

Woman, her rights, wrongs, privileges and responsibilities; containing a sketch of her condition in all ages and countries ...
Author: Brockett, L. P. (Linus Pierpont), 1820-1893.
Publication Info: Cincinnati,: Howe's Subscription Book Concern, 1869.
Collection: Making of America Books
Chapter 8 page 134-146; property 257-
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AFT9197.0001.001

The Woman of Business, Chapters XXX-XXXI
Savage, Marmion
Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. / Volume: 2, Issue: 34, Nov 20, 1869, pp. 427-431
Making of America Journal Articles
The Woman of Business, Chapters XXX-XXXI
Marmion Savage, pp. 427-431
Page 429
http://name.umdl.umich.edu/acw8433.1-02.034

Woman and the law; a comparison of the rights of men and the rights of women before the law. By Russell H. Conwell.
Conwell, Russell Herman, 1843-1925.
Boston,: H. L. Shapard & co., 1875.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ABQ2310.0001.001

Taxation of women in Massachusetts.
Bowditch, William Ingersoll.
Cambridge,: Press of J. Wilson and son, 1875.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AED0189.0001.001

Woman and her wishes: an essay: inscribed to the Massachusetts constitutional convention.
Higginson, Thomas Wentworth, 1823-1911.
Boston,: R. F. Wallcut, 1853.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AEW3949.0001.001

A manual of pensions, bounty, and pay: containing the laws, forms and regulations relating to pensions, bounty land, bounty money, pay, claims for horses and other property destroyed, etc.; with opinions of the attorneys-general By George W. Raff...
Raff, George W. (George Wertz), 1825-1888.
Cincinnati,: R. Clarke & co., 1863.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AJS4045.0001.001


Woman, her rights, wrongs, privileges and responsibilities; containing a sketch of her condition in all ages and countries ...
Brockett, L. P. (Linus Pierpont), 1820-1893.
Cincinnati,: Howe's Subscription Book Concern, 1869.
Making of America Books
Chapter 8 page 134-146; property 257-
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=AFT9197.0001.001


Anna Worden

cookiemom
09-29-2006, 08:41 AM
I've been trying really hard to stay out of this one...

[log off, walk away NOW]
I walked away from this thread yesterday in order to regain some perspective, and to ponder the reasons for my very negative reaction to some of the earlier posts.

Each of us has our "hot button" issues, and mine happen to be domestic violence and the treatment of the mentally ill (by society in general, not just medical.) Physical, emotional, and verbal abuse often go hand-in-hand with mental/emotional illness (another 'chicken or egg first' question,) and as one who deals with the consequences of such abuse and illness on a daily basis, I am perhaps hypersensitive to any less-than-serious discussion of the subject.

In addition, without turning this into a tirade against all men (past or present), I would also say that the posts concerning the treatment of some women by some men (and by some laws and some customs) have left me with a renewed sense of outrage at the injustice of it all.

Thanks to all of those who have posted references for further reading. They provide all of us the chance to make a serious examination of a difficult subject. [Special thanks to Trooper Graham for linking to David Reardon's article on "The Changing Faces of Feminism." I never before considered myself to be a feminist, but I find I am firmly entrenched with my 19th century sisters.]

Trooper Graham
09-29-2006, 09:16 AM
[Special thanks to Trooper Graham for linking to David Reardon's article on "The Changing Faces of Feminism." I never before considered myself to be a feminist, but I find I am firmly entrenched with my 19th century sisters.]

Hiya Ma!

If that link has given you a new perspective of yourself about being a feminist then that's good. But! unless you play over and over again Helen Reddy's song "I am Woman Hear Me Roar" in my eyes, you'll always be 'Ma' to me. ;)
I'm a peanut butter cookie kind of guy so remember that. ;)

hanktrent
09-29-2006, 09:36 AM
I was also somewhat surprised to discover that the differences from state-to-state or county-to-county were not distinguished between rights/no rights for women. Some entities afforded women the rights to retain property but not custody of their children; others made divorce relatively simple but made it difficult to take anything away from the marriage except the divorce decree.

Just got to thinking about this, and I'm curious how county-to-county differences occurred.

As I understand it, divorce was based either on common law, or legislation at the state level.

Were there county laws which were actually codified, giving different rights?

Or are we talking about common law? In that case, a particular judge would certainly have the leeway to slant his decisions in one direction, as long as he generally stayed within case law precedents. Lawyers would probably know that Judge A had a reputation for being more sympathetic toward drunken husbands while Judge B came down hard on them, or whatever. But were there actually different county precedents that needed followed, with different rights granted, or was it just a case of "everybody knows" how a particular judge usually ruled?

I'm just curious how county-to-county differences happened, legally speaking.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

ElizabethClark
09-29-2006, 10:07 AM
Thanks for all the links, everyone!

I've been reading a book on a fellow who got his start in the Five Points of New York during the war years, called "A Pickpocket's Tale" by Timothy J Gilfoyle. Most of the "action" is post-war (when his adult criminal life picks up), but the information on his formative years in a criminal underworld is interesting. There are quite a few details on the "current" system of cerceral provision for the infirm, mentally infirm, indigent, and criminal classes. It's fascinating--and sad.

Carolann Schmitt
09-29-2006, 11:55 AM
Or are we talking about common law? In that case, a particular judge would certainly have the leeway to slant his decisions in one direction, as long as he generally stayed within case law precedents. Lawyers would probably know that Judge A had a reputation for being more sympathetic toward drunken husbands while Judge B came down hard on them, or whatever. But were there actually different county precedents that needed followed, with different rights granted, or was it just a case of "everybody knows" how a particular judge usually ruled?

Hank Trent[/email]

It's been two years and five years since Katie Carroll's presentations, so my memory may not be exact. As I understood it, these instances were a matter of interpreting common law - similar to the example you gave. I'm not an attorney and I don't know (or can't remember) if there were also different county precedents.

The variations in interpreting common law existed well into the 20th century in our part of the country. In the 1960s it was common knowledge which county judges were more or less lenient on divorce, custody or property settlement issues. That did not change until Pennsylvania put "no-fault divorce laws" into place.

Last night I pulled out the handouts for Katie's presentations. They include the texts of a number of decisions regarding various women's rights - , breech of promise, property, divorce, etc. Unfortunately I do not have them electronically and I just don't have the time right now to key 16+ pages of legal decisions. Attorneys usually rely on dusty volumes in law libraries or (expensive) subscription databases for this information, but I'll ask her if she knows of any online sources for those who want to investigate this further. And I'll ask her for more information about the questions you raised, Hank.

Delia Godric
09-29-2006, 12:09 PM
Coralann,

I have been looking into women's property rights with the idea of writing an article or paper. I concede. This topic is one I could never fully cover even after years of effort. Do you think Ms. Carroll would consider putting her research and presentations into an article? Possibly one that covers how these laws effected a woman's everyday life?

Anna Worden

hanktrent
09-29-2006, 01:19 PM
And I'll ask her for more information about the questions you raised, Hank.

Thank you! Actually, to narrow it way down, what I'm most interested in right now is Kentucky law.

The Kentucky statutes from the early 1850s are online at http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=kyetexts;cc=kyetexts;xc=1&idno=B96-15-36619927&view=toc

Don't know what other information is easily available concerning Kentucky divorces, especially close to the war years.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net