Union Regimental Colors and National Flags???

[MMurphy]

Just a quick crazy question...due to a little discussion and a project I am working on.:confused:
Union Regiments and their colors...

Did EACH Union Regiment (Specifically in the Eastern Theater), have their own set of National Colors AND a Regimental Color, (in other words, two flags)???

I've seem some US Flags (National Colors), that also seem to be "Regimental Colors" (Some New Jersey units)...while others had the "Blue Regimental Flag with the Eagle", etc...(Ohio, especially).

So if a Union Regiment was coming at you, what would you see?....

And how did this change from Regiment to Brigade and Brigade to Division?

Thanks in Advance...yes I know this is an odd and awkward question...

[79th New York]

Basically, yes. National, Regimental and in a perfect world.....Flank Markers.

[flattop32355]

Quoting from Dominic Dal Bello's "Parade, Inspection and Basic Evolutions of the Infantry Battalion", 4th Ed., paragraph 145, page 53, and so indirectly from Henry L. Scott's "Military Dictionary", 1861, page 164:


"Each regiment of artillery and infantry has two silken colors, but only one is borne or displayed at the same time, and on actual (pre-war) service that is usually the regimental one." During the Civil War, however, it seems that in general (but not always) Federals carried only the national colors into the field, reserving their regimental/state colors for ceremony.

[Colonel Dave]

I have a lot of respect for Dom and all he achieved. The hobby lost a good man when he decided to stop reenacting.
But....I have no idea what he based his statement(s) on and have never encountered a regulation that states that only one flag was to be flown.
Mike, the Regulations I have read state there will be two flags, one National and one regimental. A little trivia test....why is it called a National flag when it has a blue field with stars and red and white stripes? Why isn't it called an American flag? I know but let's see who can answer.
BTW, the origional question coming from a Confederate reminds me of the 130th Resaca when the Confederate commander sent a trusted aide to determine how many Yanks were marching across the field to attack during Saturday's tactical.
This trusted aide, knowing that each of his battalions carried one flag each, counted the flags of my 6 battalions. He respectfully reported there were 12 Yankee battalions attacking. True story.

[Tom Scoufalos]

There is such a variety of situations that it is hard to generalize. Many volunteer regiments followed some kind of permutation of the Regular Army system of displaying two colors, but not all; further, those two colors may have been National and Regimental, National and State, or State and Regimental. Add to that the special presentation colors that may or may not have been carried in the field (more often, not) and the situation of any given regiment at any one time getting them repaired, or having battle honors painted on them, and it becomes quite interesting!

One state's example: Pennsylvania regiments, as a rule, carried one color: the State Color. However, that state flag looks an awful lot like a national flag as it is the stars and stripes with the Arms of the state surrounded by stars in the canton and "XXth REG: P.V." on the centre stripe. The state issued these to all foot regiments, without exception that I know of. Cavalry regiments carried a single regimental standard; in PA's case that being a more traditional state flag (arms on a blue field) that was analagous to the single regimental standard carried by Regular cavalry regiments. This is, of course, excepting the company guidons.

That said, it was not unusual for foot regiments to have carried a second color: sometimes a more traditional state flag; occasionally a true National color (26th PA had a presentation National color sent from California for example), a yellow artillery regimental, or a "Fenian/Irish/Green" flag. One unusual exception is the 56th PA at Gettysburg; their State color was sent away for somethingorother and they carried a camp marker as a "color" into the battle.

Add every other state's bias to the mix (or the lack thereof) and you have quite a colorful variety. Pun intended ;)

[Rob Weaver]

Each regiment was supposed to have a regimental flag and a national flag, but like almost all things, whether they did or not depends on the time and the circumstances. For instance, the 13th Pa Reserves were split into 2 battalions in 1862. One was on the Peninsula, the other in the Valley. The one in the Valley carried an unofficial flag that had originally belonged to one of the companies. The battalion on the Peninsula lost their colors at one point. When the 2 battalions were reunited, they marched under the unofficial flag until a new one was presented.
In addition, believe it or not, there were times when a flag was retired as no longer servicable, and there was a period of time when the regiment either borrowed one as needed or did without. The Iron Brigade was presented with a flag all its own (making it I believe one of a select few brigades which ever had distinctive colors) but they sent it home as too pretty to fly. I can point to a number of high number Pennsylvania regiments which never received flags at all.

[crazyyankee]

Here is an example of the State colors of the 45th PVI. Here are 2 pictures of the 1st and 3rd flag that the unit carried. The 2nd is lost in time.

If you are portraying a Pennsylvania unit you can view the flag(s) in Harrisburg by appointment. That is how we got the pictures.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Throughout the war the U. S. government issued regimental, national, and camp colors to regiments. A slightly larger number of national colors seem to have actually been issued, which I think may reflect the purchase of more regimental colors from places like Tiffany's.

Casey's, in the diagram of the formation of a battalion in battle, shows only one color deployed, the national. The School of the Battalion, describing the duties of the color guard, assume only one bearer, and thus, I suppose, just the one flag. In volume I, para. 45, battalions of less than five companies do not display the colors at all.

That the flag carried by the full regiment was typically the national, seems borne out by the decision of the Confederate government to create the battle flag for clearer distinction from the old flag.

There's an interesting passage in the October 29, 1864 Army and Navy Journal presenting a Congratulatory Order to the Army of the James, describing its overall accomplishments and naming a series of individual soldiers who distinguished themselves. Again and again we hear of a single soldier carrying, carrying off, or saving the regiment's color.

That said, I've seen illustrations of both flags carried in battle, and numerous mentions. Colonel Wells, in his AAR of the 34th Mass. at New Market, several times describes directing his color-bearer, singular, to take a particular position, but at the end of the report praises not only the Color Sergeant, but a "Corporal Pepper, bearer of the State flag."

This may be another example of something confusing us now that also confused them at the time, where the "right" answer does not always apply to the practice of every regiment in every battle.

[bob 125th nysvi]

were always issued two flags based on the NYS Militia regulations of 1858.

The NYS regulation mimicked the Federal regulations as to size design and mounting of the flags. The 125th carried theirs through out he war (and replaced the flag they lost at Harpers Ferry in 1862). The final "regimental" flag still exists in the NYS Military Museum collection (restoration completed courtesy of my unit).

There are of course regiments that fielded "non-official" designs.

As to other states I can't answer.

[billwatson2]

"This may be another example of something confusing us now that also confused them at the time, where the "right" answer does not always apply to the practice of every regiment in every battle."


Ah. Like the coat that must be "buttoned, and hooked at the top" ? :D

[Phantom Captain]

A little trivia test....why is it called a National flag when it has a blue field with stars and red and white stripes? Why isn't it called an American flag? I know but let's see who can answer.


Easy, the National Colors have gold or yellow stars, and a canton that is non-regulation size with a motto or seal sometimes in the canton. As such it is not a true American flag and is not defaced by the troops adding battle honors or otherwise writing or adding on to it nor then would a true American Flag ever be captured.

I believe the last true American Flag ever to be captured by an enemy in combat was at First Bull Run. All the rest captured during the war were only National Colors and not the American Flag.

[Pvt Schnapps]

"This may be another example of something confusing us now that also confused them at the time, where the "right" answer does not always apply to the practice of every regiment in every battle."


Ah. Like the coat that must be "buttoned, and hooked at the top" ? :D

Or the association of blue spectacles with syphilis (although that's just a flat out reenactorism, there being no such supposition at the time).

And then there were the various questions asked of the editor of The Army and Navy Journal in the 1864-65 editions. Here, Jeopary style, are the answers of some examples:

--The parade rest of the Tactics is now used.

--The overcoat is now carried inside the knapsack.

--In forming for dress parade, the colors come on with the color company; there is no authority for having them already on the color line.

--Adjutants don't get to wear gold trouser stripes.


My favorite, though, is "It is always a safe rule, when you do not know what to do, to do nothing..." I figure that would solve half our problems right there :)

[Tom Scoufalos]

Easy, the National Colors have gold or yellow stars, and a canton that is non-regulation size with a motto or seal sometimes in the canton. As such it is not a true American flag and is not defaced by the troops adding battle honors or otherwise writing or adding on to it nor then would a true American Flag ever be captured.

I believe the last true American Flag ever to be captured by an enemy in combat was at First Bull Run. All the rest captured during the war were only National Colors and not the American Flag.

Good point. Another good example of that principle is the stands of colors carried by Regular regiments from roughly the war of 1812 until, as I understand it, prior to the Mexican war; the two colors were still referred to as the "National Color" and the "Regimental Color". However, the National color was, well, basically what we CW types consider to be a prototypical Federal Regimental color: a rampant eagle with stars above and a scroll below on a blue field. The Regimental color was, generally at least, for line regiments a simple yellow flag with a scroll in the centre with the name of the regiment on it, and I believe the Regiment of Riflemen had the same, in green.

It's just that the "eagle flag" was the one, in that instance, that represented the nation, although it was not an American flag per se.

Kind of like the colours carried by British regiments from the mid-18th century to the present (excepting the Guards Division) - each battalion of each regiment carries two colors: the Queen's Colour (or King's Colour, depending on whether the reagent is a woman or a man, respectively), which is "the Union throughout" although given the different porportions it is not "the British flag" per se, and a Regimental Colour with the union in the canton and the field in the regimental facing color, along with various regional or regimental devices, &cet. Some of them even have a 3rd colour too, such as the Queen's Surrey Regiment. Incidentally, the Guards Regiments really goof things up, with a "Colonel's Colour" which is usually very plain and a "Regimental Colour" which is, paradoxally, the Union throughout. Then each company has a colour, too.

[mladair]

Easy, the National Colors have gold or yellow stars, and a canton that is non-regulation size with a motto or seal sometimes in the canton. As such it is not a true American flag and is not defaced by the troops adding battle honors or otherwise writing or adding on to it nor then would a true American Flag ever be captured.

While I can't specifically refute it, I'm not sure that I agree with this. What we consider traditions regarding the defacement of the flag did not really come about until the 20th century, and was codified in the 1923 US Flag Code. What we would consider defacement today was just considered tradition back then. Think of the number of pieces of the cut from the Star Spangled Banner as souvenirs over the years.

My guess why they were called National colors would be that to say the American Flag back then would be a little ambiguous - ie: both sides were American.

Matt

[bob 125th nysvi]

Gentlemen: Please note in neither set of regs do they refer to an "official" American flag at all. In both cases they refer to "National Colors". Militarily there does not appear to be a distinction. As note in the US regs that it designates that the 'field' "National Colors" (regs US 1438 ) is to have the name and number of the regiment embroidered on it.

So it appears that by the customs of the times the "National" flags carried by the regiments were considered "American" Flags and that putting something other than the stars and stripes on them not only did not make them "un-official" but was even mandated.

If that is the case then "American" Flags were captured numerous times by CSA forces during the Civil War.

And I don't know the details (and it is outside our period) but it is also possible that "National Colors", thus American flags could have captured at Bataan, Corregidor and during the Battle of the Bulge (I believe two regiments of the 106th wound up surrendering enmass) if they were with their units and not destroyed before the surrenders took place.

1858 State Regulations

Article XXXIV.
FLAGS, COLORS, STANDARDS, GUIDONS—NATIONAL FLAG.

717. The national flag is made of bunting, thirty-six feet fly, and twenty feet hoist, in thirteen horizontal stripes of equal breadth, alternately red and white, beginning with the red. In the upper quarter, next the staff, is the Union composed of a number of white stars, equal to the number of States, on a blue field, one-third the length of the flag, extending to the lower edge of the fourth red stripe from the top. The storm flag is twenty feet by ten feet. The state flag is made of white bunting, twelve feet fly by ten feet hoist, bearing in the center the arms of the State of New-York.

COLORS OF INFANTRY AND RIFLE REGIMENTS.

719. Each regiment of infantry or rifles shall have two colors. The first, or national color, of stars and stripes, as described for the national flag, and may be either of silk or bunting, with red cord and tassels. The second, or regimental color, to be of blue silk, with the arms of the State of New-York embroidered in silk on the centre. The number and name of the regiment, and the letters N.Y.S.M., in gold embroidery underneath the arms. The size of each color to be six feet six inches fly, and six feet deep on the pike. The length of the pike, including the eagle and ferrule, to be nine feet ten inches. The fringe gold or yellow silk, four inches deep; cord and tassels; blue and white silk intermixed.

1861 Army Revised Regulations

ARTICLE L.
FLAGS, COLORS, STANDARDS, GUIDONS.

GARRISON FLAG.

1436. Each garrison flag is the national flag. It is made of bunting, thirty-six feet fly, and twenty feet hoist, in thirteen horizontal stripes of equal breadth, alternately red and white, beginning with the red. In the upper quarter, next the staff, is the Union, composed of a number of white stars, equal to the number of the States, on a blue field, one-third the length of the flag, extending to the lower edge of the fourth red stripe from the top. The storm flag is twenty feet by ten feet; the recruiting flag, nine feet nine inches by four feet four inches.

COLORS OF INFANTRY REGIMENTS.

1438. Each regiment of Infantry shall have two silken colors. The first, or the national color, of stars and stripes, as described for the garrison flag; the number and name of the regiment to be embroidered with silver on the centre stripe. The second, or regimental color, to be blue, with the arms of the United States embroidered in silk on the centre. The name of the regiment in a scroll, underneath the eagle. The size of each color to be six feet six inches fly, and six feet deep on the pike. The length of the pike, including the spear and ferrule, to be nine feet ten inches in length. The fringe yellow, cords and tassels, blue and white silk intermixed.

[Colonel Dave]

Phantom Captain nails it with by identifiying the stars on the National Color are gold or siver whereas the stars on an American flag are white. It is my understanding the "deface" issue was not an issue in regards to putting the names of the battles on the flag......touching the ground with the flag was not an issue and accepted as no big deal until the early 1900's.
I have heard and read the same statements that by changing the flag to a National Color, no more American flags would be captured but Bob quotes an 1858 statute that raises more questions then it answers.

[79th New York]

Here is a a copy of an original receipt for colors received by the 79th Highlanders in the summer of 1863. Its in a friends collection and I had the opportunity to take a look at it in person.

( ) = Hand written
It reads:

"Received from the Committee on National Affairs of the Common Council of the City of New York, the stand of Colors for the (79th) Regiment, N. Y. I. Volunteers, forwarded to me per Adam's Express, by said Committee.

(Dated at Convington, Ky.)
(August 15,)
(D Morrison) Colonel.
(79th Regt. N.Y.I. Vol.)
(Com'd 1st Brig. 1st Div. 9th Army Corp.)"

They received a new National and regimental complete with the flag staffs and chords.

[Blackbeard]

Yes...a National flag and a Regimental. At times the Regimental may have been replaced with another ie....a gift from the ladies of such and such city or some such.

Zane

[hiplainsyank]

Additionally, a quick perusal of the flag section of Echoes of Glory shows a number of flags that have white/whitish stars instead of gold stars...

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Additionally, a quick perusal of the flag section of Echoes of Glory shows a number of flags that have white/whitish stars instead of gold stars...
Sometimes because they were white, other times due to oxidation of the gold paint over time.