Tar a Haversack?

[kderren]

Need to do some repairs, want to repaint or tar the patched areas,
what do I use?

[gwagner]

Black latex paint. Put thin coats on. Semi gloss.

The period recipe is dangerous as heck for food containing items.

[Rachal]

Need to do some repairs, want to repaint or tar the patched areas,
what do I use?

If you have a few weeks for it to dry, I have had good luck mixing up a simple batch of linseed oil, japan drier, and some lampblack. It looks great, smells like it should, and is quite cheap. I have also used the semigloss latex paint method and it is an easy fix. Just don't mess up and use gloss paint. It will crack badly if you do. Are you trying to paint over an area that was torn? If so, would a field repair have been painted over? Just curious. I can appreciate trying to save money and stretch your gear out for as long as you can, but how noticeable is the repair going to be? If you happen to be coming to the Olustee event this weekend, I can bring you a small bottle of the linseed paint to try. Just let me know. Good luck.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Oilcloth and Painted Accouterments
by Jack Cox

“Painting” was a 1800’s method of waterproofing cloth for such items as knapsacks, haversacks, belts, cartridge boxes and ground cloths. Properly done, the fabric does become very waterproof, but retains its flexibility.
There are many different recipes for both "period accurate" oilcloth and for a modern version that looks the same, but without some of the problems of the 1850's recipe. The paint is generally applied over cotton drill or linen canvas.
The instructions below discuss the making of ground cloths, but the same procedure applies to all painted goods.

Modern Recipe:
While this recipe is obviously not authentic, it produces the same look and feel as the original methods. The final product looks, feels and wears as close to the original as most of us can approximate today. However, you need to make a decision as to whether you want to "fake it" with a modern approximation when a good period recipe is available.
Materials: Wallpaper sizing. Get it pre-mixed and ready to use. Flat black or semi-gloss interior latex paint *** Boiled linseed oil Mineral spirits paint thinner Japan dryer
(All of these materials are available at any good paint store)
Method:
1. Using a roller, paint both sides of the cloth with the wallpaper sizing and let it dry. It should take an hour or less. The sizing will prevent the paint from soaking the cloth, and it will give it some "tooth" for paint adhesion.
2. Using a roller, paint one side of the cloth with the black latex paint. Let it dry overnight.
3. Mix 2 parts of mineral spirits with 1 part boiled linseed oil. Add Japan dryer. Use 1 oz. (2 tablespoons) per pint of paint.
4. With a brush, paint the sized side of the cloth with the linseed oil mix. Let it dry. This may take several days, depending on temperature and humidity. It's NOT wise to let it dry in the house.
5. Paint on two additional coats of the linseed oil mix. Let it dry between coats.
*** There is a variation of this recipe that works very well also. Instead of using plain latex paint, mix 2 parts of latex paint with one part of boiled linseed oil. Stir it thoroughly, then follow the instructions above.


Period Recipe:
This recipe is an approximation, since the original recipe specified "litharge," or lead monoxide (PbO) which is extremely poisonous.
Bright Idea: Leave out the lampblack, and you have a recipe for a nice civilian waterproof cloth.
I strongly recommend this recipe because it is about as authentic as you can get without putting life and limb in danger.
Materials: Boiled linseed oil Mineral spirits paint thinner (or turpentine) Lampblack (comes in tubes or dry powder) Japan dryer Corn starch
Method:
1. Make a sizing by boiling about a quart of water and adding cornstarch mixed in cold water until the mixture becomes a little syrupy.
2. Paint the cloth with the cornstarch sizing and let dry.
3. Mix one part of boiled linseed oil with one part of mineral spirits. Add lamp black until the paint is a very opaque black. Add one oz. (2 tbsp) of Japan dryer per pint.
4. With a brush, paint the cloth with the blackened linseed oil and let dry. This can take several days.
5. Mix one part of boiled linseed oil with two parts of mineral spirits. Add one oz. of Japan dryer per pint.
6. With a brush, paint the cloth with the clear linseed oil mixture and let it dry. This can also take several days. Two coats of this mixture should give the results you want.
(You can omit the cornstarch sizing if you want, but the oil-based paint will pretty much soak the cloth.)

Confederate Ordnance Manual Recipe:
There is a recipe from the 1863 Confederate Ordinance manual which I have not tried. Use at your own risk.
Materials: 28 Parts lampblack 1 Part Japan varnish 73 Parts boiled Linseed oil 1 Part spirits of turpentine 1 Part litharge (substitute Japan Dryer for this.
Litharge is lead monoxide, and is very poisonous.)
Method:
1. Mix the ingredients, using 1 oz. (2 tbsp) of Japan dryer per quart of paint.
2. If you don't want the paint to totally soak the cloth, size it with cornstarch as in the period recipe above.
3. Apply 2-3 coats until the desired sheen is obtained.
Turpentine-base Recipe
This recipe comes from "Young's Demonstrative Translation of Scientific Secrets - 1861." This recipe will sound familiar in materials and proportion, but uses turpentine instead of mineral spirits for a thinner. Hazard Warning: The recipe uses litharge*** (poison hazard) and the mixture is boiled (fire hazard).

I DO NOT RECOMMEND OR ENDORSE USING THIS RECIPE.
Materials: 1 pint of spirits of turpentine 1 to 1 1/2 pints of linseed oil 1 lb litharge
Method:
1. Combine all materials in a large metal bucket. Litharge reacts strongly to aluminum and zinc. Do not use an aluminum or zinc coated vessel.
2. Boil and stir until thoroughly mixed and dissolved.
3. Paint on the cloth.
4. Let dry in the sun.
This recipe will give a clear to reddish or yellowish color, depending upon the base color of the litharge. The first coats could be tinted with lamp black to make a glossy painted oilcloth.
*** Safety data (MSDS) for litharge."

CHS

[Mint Julep]

Need to do some repairs, want to repaint or tar the patched areas,
what do I use?

Do I understand that you have placed a patch on the existing bag and now want to paint it?

If so, explain how you think a CW soldier would have accomplished the same. Or why he would bother?

He would draw a new one or patch the old one until a new one could be obtained. I doubt he would paint it to match.

Considering you can buy a new one from Missouri Boot and Shoe for $32 (free shipping even!), why put yourself through this trouble?

[Rachal]

That's the point that I was trying to get at. I guess that I am too diplomatic. Thanks Julep.

[Scooby_308]

Question:

MSBS does not use BLO in thier recipe. Is what they use just black latex paint or some formula?

[lincolnsguard]

The period recipe is dangerous as heck for food containing items.


Please site your sources for this statement. Or, is this something someone "told" you? 100's of reenactors carry food in properly constructed as per 1860's standards haversacks and knapsacks and, I have NEVER herd of such a thing. EVER. I guess ergo, carrying your clothing in a properly constructed knapsack or sleeping on a properly constructed "tarred" or "oiled" cloth will make you glow? My word.



Friend, if you're looking for a "period" receipt for "tarring" material, use the search feature on the site, type "tarred cloth." Within you'll find something quite handy and, it won't kill you.

On the other hand. A soldier wouldn't have the means to re-tarr his equippage. He'd either tell his Orderly Sergeant at muster that he needed an new one issued or, he'd make a field repair and use the haversack he had. Understandably, with the cost of our reproduction items, I can't blame you for wanting to take care of your stuff. Good luck!:D

[Julius]

I used a period recipie for a ration bag once....I got killed of course


Just do what has already been suggested and just patch it.

[Spinster]

I'll be much more likely to die from the overcomsumption of salty porcuine goodness than from the delightful little tarred sacks I transport it in.

[3rdUSRedleg]

....I got killed of course.

Haah...Good one!!
Since the roads are so passable here due to the storm.. ;)
I think I will have to dig out the movie Mountain Man.. Havent seen it in years.

[Julius]

Haah...Good one!!
Since the roads are so passable here due to the storm.. ;)
I think I will have to dig out the movie Mountain Man.. Havent seen it in years.

Didnt think anyone would get the reference.

[Bill_Cross]

Please site your sources for this statement. Or, is this something someone "told" you? 100's of reenactors carry food in properly constructed as per 1860's standards haversacks and knapsacks and, I have NEVER herd of such a thing. EVER. I guess ergo, carrying your clothing in a properly constructed knapsack or sleeping on a properly constructed "tarred" or "oiled" cloth will make you glow? My word.
Sorry, friend, I'll skip the lead. It may not kill you, but it will make you stupid.

[Regular3]

Sorry, friend, I'll skip the lead. It may not kill you, but it will make you stupid.Too late Bill ... We're reenactors. It may not have been lead, but the damage was apparently done long ago :lol:

[TobiasJones]

Please site your sources for this statement. Or, is this something someone "told" you? 100's of reenactors carry food in properly constructed as per 1860's standards haversacks and knapsacks and, I have NEVER herd of such a thing. EVER. I guess ergo, carrying your clothing in a properly constructed knapsack or sleeping on a properly constructed "tarred" or "oiled" cloth will make you glow? My word.


Oh, I don't know... Does the back of the can work?

Evan O'Dell

[billwatson2]

Eli -- given the Franklin Expedition's experiences with lead poisoning from their tinned food, given the extensive medical research into the effects of lead on the human brain, given the extensive regulations for dealing with lead-based paint removal by the EPA, and given the lack of expertise of most of us with mixing up a recipe with litharge in ways that will truly bond the lead (if it even did in 186x), what part of "putting your food in contact with a lead compound is not a good idea" don't you get? Are you seriously asking that someone document the number of people from the war who got lead poisoning from litharge in their haversacks? Or are you seriously suggesting we ignore all the information we have today on lead poisoning because it doesn't date to the war? Have YOU been eating food from your lead-coated haversack?

Frankly I think if you examined the remains of most of the generals, both sides, who were the ones consuming tinned food the most, you'd find lead poisoning in more than a few. If I ever wanted a doctorate, it would have a premise that lead poisoning was responsible for some of the stupider decisions made by the command structures.

You coated your stuff with a litharge-based mix? That's interesting. Where did you get the litharge?

[hanktrent]

Oh, I don't know... Does the back of the can work?

Evan O'Dell

What amounts of harmful chemicals are transferred to food carried inside a haversack, that's painted on the outside with linseed oil that has dried?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[hanktrent]

You coated your stuff with a litharge-based mix? That's interesting. Where did you get the litharge?

That's what I wondered. I expect that most people are talking about the warning label on boiled linseed oil.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

Found this recently and thought it might make an interesting addition to the discussion (British Medical Journal, Vol. I, June, 1869 http://books.google.com/books?id=7iFAAAAAcAAJ&dq=lead%20fumes%20workers%20%20litharge%20OR%20pai nt&pg=PA550#v=onepage&q=lead%20fumes%20workers%20%20litharge%20OR%20pain t&f=false):


"Workers in lead-mines, colour-grinders, glass-blowers, file-cutters, and others, are liable to suffer from the effects of lead; the extent of disease and the severity of the symptoms depending on the amount of lead received, and the rapidity with which it is taken into the system, the form in which it is received, and the constitutional power of the receiver to resist its poisonous influence.

"In London, however, the occupations which supply the largest number of sufferers from poisoning by the metal in its various forms are the white lead-workers and plumbers, of whom we have spoken, glaziers, and house-painters.

"Owing to the impossibility of keeping paint from coming into contact with the skin whilst they are at work ; owing to the almost universal practice amongst them of touching their food with unwashed hands; and to the habit, of some of them, of wearing corduroy, fustian, and other clothes difficult to cleanse, Painters absorb large quantities of the hurtful metal, and suffer gravely in consequence. An attack of colic may occur now and again, and the painter will recover; but if he continue to follow his trade, the more serious diseases—paralysis or kidney-disease—are almost certain to attack him at last, and to render him, if not entirely unable to work, so weak and prostrated, that in mental as well as physical power he will be but as the ghost of his former self. It is seldom that such workers are killed in early life: they lose power early, and soon become unable to perform a good day's work, but they drag through their labour for many years, suffering always from general weakness. From the time that Lead has contaminated their bodies, their lives are wearisome and joyless.

"In 1860-61, there were registered in England the deaths of 2,425 plumbers, painters, and glaziers. Of these, there were 73 between the ages of ten and twenty; 153 between twenty and twenty-five; 348 between twenty-five and thirty-five; 470 between thirty-five and forty-five; 518 between forty-five and fifty-five; 450 between fifty-five and sixtyfive; 293 between sixty-five and seventy-five; 109 between seventy-five and eighty-five; and 13 above eighty-five years.

"Cases like the following are not unfrequently met with in practice.

"A painter, aged twenty-nine, admitted as a patient under our care, stated that he had followed his trade for nine years, and that he began to suffer from lead-poisoning in the summer previous to his admission. For some days, he had had intense debility and so much giddiness that he was unable to walk through the streets. He always had "low spirits", and was seldom free from water-brash. There was no local palsy of any kind; but slight constitutional paralysis and albuminuria existed ; his gums had a characteristic dark grey leaden line where they joined the teeth.

"A master-painter, accustomed "to use the brush occasionally", was under our treatment at the beginning of the year for general dropsy, associated with albuminuria, and nearly complete suppression of urine. The pericardium contained fluid, and the heart was much embarrassed in its action. He, too, had worked at his trade for many years, and now felt the effects of the metal, for the first time, in the acute renal disease which threatened his life.

"These cases are sufficient to shew that even those men who have worked amongst lead and its compounds for many years without suffering from the diseases produced by lead, insomuch as their constitutions are sufficiently strong in the early years of their trade-life to resist or to cast off the poison, yet feel its influence even after a very lengthened period, when, it might be thought, they would have become habituated to the metal and hardened to their work.

"Since lead is so dangerous a metal to work with, it is most desirable that all efforts to substitute other materials should meet with attentive consideration. Different substances have been used instead of lead in the manufacture of paint, and with an encouraging amount of success. Zinc has been employed, and we have had favourable reports of it; the silicate of iron has also been used. The zinc is thinner than other paint, and workmen do not like it on this account, but in all other respects it is, we are told, as useful as leaden-paint.

"There are compulsory regulations with regard to the ventilation of workshops in the potteries, now placed under Governmental supervision ; and workpeople are prohibited from taking their meals in the workrooms. The periodical cleansing of worksheds is also enjoined.

"We would suggest that all workers among lead should, before com mencing or resuming their work, wash their hands not once, but many times a day, in a strong decoction of oak-bark, the tannin of which would not only harden the skin, but would protect it against the action of lead. We indorse the precautionary measures that have already been suggested, and urge that the hair of the workmen should be kept short.

"All painters should wear, during their work, clean cloth caps. All their clothes should be made of materials that can be easily washed.

"The workman's hands should always be washed before he touches his food; and, if they be stained with paint, they should be dipped into the oak-bark decoction.

"The mouth should always be well rinsed with cold water before food is taken. We would suggest the use of weak oak-bark decoction as a wash several times a week.

"The food should contain a large proportion of fatty substances. Milk should also be taken in large quantities.

"The body should be sponged night and morning with cold or tepid water, and the hair should be washed thoroughly every evening after work.

"When men or women are exposed occasionally to the fumes of lead, folded muslin, or a handkerchief, should be placed over the mouth; the outer layer of the band having been previously soaked with oak bark decoction, and then wrung out.

"The use of iodine drinks has been suggested; but the habitual use of iodine is undesirable. We hold that this substance should be used solely as a medicine when symptoms of lead-poisoning have actually commenced, and then it should be given under medical supervision."

[TKindred]

To play the wag, I would offer that the largest portion of lead-poisoning cases during our period came from sub-cutaneous deposits of the .58 and .69 specimen. ;)

[Spinster]

:).

It's a pretty day. Some folks are having picnics. I'm celebrating with a gallon of boiled linseed oil, some wood, some canvas, and Jack Cox's receipt.

But then, I already knew this stuff had made me stupid, even without the lead. I'm organizing a 7 day event, and that pretty well paints the picture. :rolleyes:

[hanktrent]

Found this recently and thought it might make an interesting addition to the discussion (British Medical Journal, Vol. I, June, 1869

Search for "painter's colic" in period books. Lots of information.

I'm still curious about an answer to my question in post #17. I mean, I can read the warning labels on gas stations, but like everyone else, I still pump my own gas without gloves and a respirator. There's a difference between occupational exposure, 40+ hours a week, and occasional exposure.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[flattop32355]

I'm still curious about an answer to my question in post #17. I mean, I can read the warning labels on gas stations, but like everyone else, I still pump my own gas without gloves and a respirator. There's a difference between occupational exposure, 40+ hours a week, and occasional exposure.

Then there are the variations for who just throws the food into the haversack uncovered, versus those who have everything in poke sacks, and within the liner bag.

The variations are too many to get at a meaningful answer for your question, I fear.

Even at that, the occasional exposure for short periods of time probably won't have any lasting harm to but the few highly sensitive among us....which is good, unless one happens to be one of those unfortunate ones.

[hanktrent]

Then there are the variations for who just throws the food into the haversack uncovered, versus those who have everything in poke sacks, and within the liner bag.

The variations are too many to get at a meaningful answer for your question, I fear.

Even at that, the occasional exposure for short periods of time probably won't have any lasting harm to but the few highly sensitive among us....which is good, unless one happens to be one of those unfortunate ones.

Okay, let's take the worst-case scenario. Food directly in the haversack, no poke sacks, outside the liner. Left in there 36 hours.

Has anyone ever actually tested this? Or are people just saying it must be dangerous because it must be dangerous?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

I'm in no position to voice an opinion about poisoned haversacks. I put a lot of oil paint on a lot of lead soldiers before it ever occurred to me to become a toy soldier myself.

[Spinster]

I'm in no position to voice an opinion about poisoned haversacks. I put a lot of oil paint on a lot of lead soldiers before it ever occurred to me to become a toy soldier myself.

Did you sharpen the brush with your lips before or after you polished dimes in the mercury from the broken thermometer? :-P


And folks think I have a dangerous hobby today. It does not hold a candle to my childhood pasttimes.

[lincolnsguard]

Has anyone ever actually tested this? Or are people just saying it must be dangerous because it must be dangerous?

Mostly because fear is rampant and common sense is dead. Has anyone ever, EVER, found an account of a soldier in the WBTS dying from eating food in his haversack? My guess would be no. The food in your haversack, in-properly prepared after a 36 hour stint in your haversack is more dangerous then what your food will get from being in your haversack. 'Course after about 20 hours my haversack is mostly empty.

You can find countless references of men getting sick from green beef or water with a floating mule in it but have you ever seen any reference to being sick from eating food tarred haversack? Not even in Chattanooga.

The stuff that's from India or Pakistan isn't "tarred" anyway. And, only the outside of authentic haversacks are tarred. So, if you used the "rice bag" to wipe your butt because you didn't have any toilet paper and threw it away or used it to clean your musket(both authentic), I feel quite sure to say you aren't going to die from keeping food in your authentic haversack.

My word.:-P

[Pvt Schnapps]

Did you sharpen the brush with your lips before or after you polished dimes in the mercury from the broken thermometer? :-P


And folks think I have a dangerous hobby today. It does not hold a candle to my childhood pasttimes.

After I cut the flash down with a pocketknife and smoothed the mold line with a needle file, but before I opened the bottles and switched a few key ingredients in my brother's chem lab under the basement stairs.

I don't think I ever broke more than three or four thermometers.

And I never really felt poisoned till high school, and even then it wasn't the drugs but everyone's attempt to bake organic bread from grains that honest cattle would look askance at.

I am old, I am old, I shall wear my trowsers rolled...