Why the future is murky

[Colonel Dave]

Here are some observations pertaining to issues affecting the future of our hobby/lifestyle/obsession:

1. The single most important concept to remember with all of our issues is the lack of true authority of the leadership. From the NCO up to a General with 4 stars, his authority within the reenacting community is only what that community will grant or allow.

2, That said, the leadership can only influence the decisions of the general membership by openly supporting a particular event, reenacting style or associations with other units.

3. Thus, despite a huge pool of individuals who portray a military organization with the established "chain of command", there truly is no such thing. There is only a chain of suggestion.

4. I learned early on that every command ends with the silent word, "Please".

5. As the future of what we do is discussed, it must be kept in mind that if there are 7,137 reenactors at an event, there are 7,137 opinions as to how the event should be run, how accurate the scenarios are and if the event is worth returning to.

6. In the discussions regarding authentic vs non-authentic, keep in mind that as long as you have fillings in your teeth, are circumcised and drove to an event, no one is truly authentic. What one person percieves is a truly authentic impression may not be the same as the next guys perception. It then becomes a matter of personal interpretation and not factual. When it comes to personal opinions, see #5.

7. The future of what we do is an evolutionary process and no amount of website posts or back room politics can predetermine how the 150th Gettysburg will play out. We can affect the outcome but only by degrees and not by decrees.

[Galvanized]

Here are some observations pertaining to issues affecting the future of our hobby/lifestyle/obsession:

.....are circumcised.... .


What if my character is a German Jew in Mr Lincoln's Army or a former Jewish shopkeeper in Corinth, MS? Or even the Sec of State of the Confederacy?

Oy Vei!!

[Colonel Dave]

Then your impression would be accurate. Who was it that ordered all newspapermen and Jews out of their area of command, Grant or Sherman?
Thus, your accurate impression would have to be a don't ask/don't tell or fleeing the area.

[Galvanized]

If in the Yankee Army, I'd just have a "Dutchy" name and be thought to be just a "Deutchman." Privates were not reporters.

As a Rebel Jewish soldier, What do I care about them, they is meshugenna! :rolleyes:

Part of this is in jest, but part is real. My Atlanta Lodge was founded in 1857 and is mostly Jewish and my Lodge in Alabama, founded in 1813; the building was once a synagoge.

[reddiamond]

I agree with most everything that Colonel Dave says.
Reenactor officers have a great deal of "pretend" responsibility. But there are real responsibilities too.

Rather than command, officers are glorified party planners. They plan and carry out events. They are responsible for the safety and well-being of those who attend. They are responsible for showing those attendees a good time. They need to be in touch with the desires of those who elect them to drive their agendas. It is very republic-like. When a leader does not deliver, the men vote with their feet, or actual votes next election.

We are a very company oriented hobby. Normally, men portray a certain unit and are extremely loyal to representing the memory of that particular group of heroes. We form into battalions of mixed companies and seldom go for a singular impression other than to carry a particular unit's flag into battle. Regimental impressions seldom go further than that.

This poses a problem for event commanders who are tasked with creating a historic battle.

Take the annual Cedar Creek reenactment. I am only mentioning this because it is a regularly attended "big" event here in the east. There are normally seven Federal battalions who attend. Most are of mixed impressions, with few striving to portray an actual regiment who fought. The individual reenactor seldom takes into account that he is going to Cedar Creek, 1864. This is evident in the vast array of impressions that are anachronistic to the battle. Every year, one sees corps flags of units that were not present at the original battle, and all kinds of badges being displayed on top of forage caps. That is a pet peeve of mine, but just the surface. I think that this is the result of the individual left to his own accord. Maybe they are too lazy to remove them, or too proud to leave those flags at home. Unit pride is GREAT, but there are units who were present that do not get represented. This is far simpler than enforcing documented clothing and camping styles.

The event folks want the entire battle of Cedar Creek reenacted. Yet, we only have a brigade or very small division's number of troops. It kind of forces event commanders to have a battalion represent an entire division. The whole battle is compacted into a fraction of the original ground, and bears little resemblance to the original battle.

When I think about change coming from the top, I think about a refocus on how we think about portraying history. Most go to big battle reenactment because we want to see big numbers. Pushing 30 years in the hobby, I STILL am impressed with this. I do not care if a guy has a cheap sutler coat or Pakistani leathers as much as what he does while in it. I believe that if we set out to portray a particular battle that we focus on that history and getting it as right as we can. Otherwise, we are just putting on generic tactical demonstrations.

The kind of changes that I've suggested time and again have been carried out in many of the so-called "alternative" events. People tend to shy away from these as being "hard core." They fear being looked down upon because they are self-conscious of they way they choose to camp or because they cannot afford the expensive hand-made stuff. These trappings are inconsequential to how we perform once we inspect weapons and take to the field.

If I was to change the mega-events......

1) Take account of the actual numbers of troops that are going to attend. Then, set the scenario to portray that particular number of troops. If a brigade, then the scenario will represent that PART of the battle that involved one brigade. If a division or larger (seldom seen anymore), then the scope get slightly more complex.

2) Research the battle and assign roles (portrayals) for each battalion. Try to select generic regiments. The history is already written and easy to find. Share that information to everyone, including the rank and file. This is where all all included in the ownership of the event.

3) Discourage highly visible things like inappropriate flags that would compromise that impression.

4) Instead of giving all the Federals event medallions, issue corps badges if appropriate. This will act to discourage or cover up inappropriate ones. It is more readily visible to all that a particular man is registered and is amazing how a little piece of cloth makes everyone look like they are a part of the same unit. It will also save the event folks major dollars that can be utilized elsewhere.

5) Now, everyone has a role to play that has been already written. When the battles are scaled to our numbers, many things automatically fall into place.
We can recreate battles in real time, with real distances. The opposing sides would not have to close within 50 feet and push each other around for results. Everyone would have a role in this great pageant. It would be immediately seen if someone was out of place. This effectually ends rogue battalions who wander the field looking for an opportunity to break the scenario.

This all can be had for little to no cost to the individual reenactor, and actually saves money for the events.
The event folks can interpret to visitors, "what you are about to see is a to-scale reenactment of the events that actually took place on the very grounds before you."
This is a win/win for everyone.

However, this is where leadership does count.

Scot Buffington

[PaperPusher]

I belive you make many valid points Col. Dave. This is a volunteer army that we serve in. That is what makes a leadership position so important and requires that those in leadership positions take their charge seriously. Each man woman and child who attends an event does so of their own will. When a command is given it is accepted and excuted out of free will and the person's willingness to execute it and be part of the experience. This one aspect makes leadership in the hobby both difficult and rewarding. I believe that anyone who carries rank has accepted the responsibility of reading, researching and leading by example in order to make the experience more enjoyable and fulfilling for those within their commands. I say within instead of under. If we lead by example and continually try and improve our own impressions and mannerisms when at an event as leaders it will trickle down through the ranks. A man who sees an officer who is willing and determined to change even the smallest of things about his impression gradually is more willing to walk the mile with you and improve his own impression. One of the most important character qualities that a leader must have is the ability to inspire.

I am merely an Adjutant, not a position which is traditionally a position of direct command of the troops but I am in a highly visible position. Everyone at some point or another is looking at me and examining how I carry myself, how accurate or inaccurate my impression is, and how I interact with everyone at an event. I practice and not just preach. I continually have conversations with those that I know have more knowledge and most times the know how to make inexpensive changes in my impression that have a large impact on my appearance. I am trying to improve myself, my impression and the hobby I love so much. IMHO. I am not perfect and my impression needs alot of work...but I am willing to put forth the effort and do my best to inspire those around me to do the same.

[Anders]

Scot,

Once again I find myself in complete agreement.....perhaps we are twins seperated at birth to hide us from the Empire?

Pards,

[reddiamond]

If we took the "formula" and applied it to all reenactments, I wonder if anyone would really notice?!?

How many would read before-hand to see learn the history of the action? Other than who won?

I think that doing in-depth reading of a particular event makes it all the more satisfying seeing it unfold before my eyes.

Picket's Charge is a no-brainer. But how many reenactors have witnessed a recreation of:
The charge of the Irish Brigade into the Wheatfield.
The charge of the First Minnesota.
The Iron Brigade at Brawner's Farm.
Archer's Brigade at the RR cut.
We have!

These are the defining moments that distinguished one battle from another, and inspire us to recreate these. The alternative is to assemble in lines, close to 50 feet and blaze away. No wonder why some units choose to go rogue. Reenacting as many traditional commanders have us do it is BORING!

We gotta put the acting back into reenacting.

Scot

[Galvanized]

Then your impression would be accurate. Who was it that ordered all newspapermen and Jews out of their area of command, Grant or Sherman?
Thus, your accurate impression would have to be a don't ask/don't tell or fleeing the area.

General Order 11 issued by Grant was in effect for about 3 weeks and revoked. Mid Dec 1862 to early January 1863.

[28thNY]

Here are some observations pertaining to issues affecting the future of our hobby/lifestyle/obsession:

...


I completely agree with your points. Really nothing more to say.

[plankmaker]

You may want to rethink the "acting" statement. You will probably end up with more of these types of moments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbjdAZMuEd4

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[mkraybill]

You guys have pretty much all said what is important. I do recall, at one point, kind of not feeling the "energy" in the hobby several years back. It was after many of the 140th events. I then became discouraged and wanted more and more out of the hobby. I knew what the problems were (doesn't everyone alwasy know what the problems are?!). So, I vocied them and began my lectures at to how the NCOs and officers needed to do more so I could get more out of my weekends. Then I began to realize that if I just begin to do a little bit more my weekends will be more fulfilled. So I began to add a little more here or adjust a something there. Am I the best reenactor in the world...No. Would I love to be...I don't care. But I continue to improve. This hobby has been around for so long that we have so many people at so many stages of being in the hobby. Of course we'll all be different BUT at least everyone can do their best to challenge themselves and improve.
At one time I found it annoying that maybe a living history wasn't that good OR a big event wasn't what I thought it would be. Then, I changed my attitude. I can't change thousands...I used to think I could. I can change myself and maybe motivate others through my actions. I have found that if I am understanding of where they are at in the hobby then I can give advice that hopefully directs them. Often times, people don't want advice. So, maybe something I do will attract their attention in some way and maybe they will incorporate that into their impression. This works both ways. As much as I want to model I also try to remain observant.
So, from the officer down to the private, from the organizer to the attendee, if you simply challenge yourself to be as thoughtful and thorough in your impression and participation, to the best of your ability, or time & money will allow then you are heading in the right direction. There are many opinions on what needs to happen and this is one. I like this thread because it isn't filled with ranting and raving. Maybe more guiding of this nature is what the future of the hobby needs!!

[flattop32355]

To repeat what has been said:
1) Hobby officers have no real authority; they command based on the good will they generate.
2) Hobby officers have additional (hobby) duties that the real ones didn't have: Keeping people happy, modern safety issues, etc.

Now, let's move on to:
3) Those reenactors who choose to do rank and file also have responsibilities.
They should, by attending the event, agree to:

a) Show up on time for all formations, and to perform as a part of a "real" military unit.
b) Accept those duties given them as a part of that military unit, whether they'd prefer to be on sutler row or at the ball or with their families, etc.
c) Meet or exceed the minimum standards of the event, what ever they may be, and not seek to get around those standards for reasons of personal comfort, pissiness, or any other reason.
d) Obey the orders of their "superior officers" in order to simulate the activities of a real military unit, even though everyone knows they have no real authority, and even if you know more, or even better, than they do.
e) Do nothing that would jeopardize the health or safetly of those around you, either in camp or in the field.
f) If things get too bad to stand it anymore, use the two cards you hold: Take a hit until the battle is over, and/or leave the event.

The whole upshot of this is that we all, officer/nco/rank and file/civilian, have a stake in the success of an event. Don't be so stupidly egocentric, either as an individual or a unit, as to mess things up for the others in attendance.

Play the game well and in concert with all present.

Don't just attend events; buy into them.

The soapbox is now unoccupied.....

[sigman]

If we took the "formula" and applied it to all reenactments, I wonder if anyone would really notice?!?

How many would read before-hand to see learn the history of the action? Other than who won?

I think that doing in-depth reading of a particular event makes it all the more satisfying seeing it unfold before my eyes.

Picket's Charge is a no-brainer. But how many reenactors have witnessed a recreation of:
The charge of the Irish Brigade into the Wheatfield.
The charge of the First Minnesota.
The Iron Brigade at Brawner's Farm.
Archer's Brigade at the RR cut.
We have!

These are the defining moments that distinguished one battle from another, and inspire us to recreate these. The alternative is to assemble in lines, close to 50 feet and blaze away. No wonder why some units choose to go rogue. Reenacting as many traditional commanders have us do it is BORING!

We gotta put the acting back into reenacting.

Scot

Scot, There is a mouthpiece to express your opinions. The USV is part of the Federal Alliance. The 3rd USV is part of this amalgam. Come to the next meeting and express your thoughts.
Regards, your pard, Andy Siganuk

[Silas]

The more this gets discussed, the more it sounds like situation normal ...

Excellent observation about everyone having duties and obligations to perform at events, Doc B.

[Brett]

I haven't been on this forum for very long, but it seems like we have one new "how to save the sinking hobby" thread about every day.

How often do we step back and realize that in this volunteer hobby of ours, we still get thousands of 21st century men with large egos to all stand shoulder to shoulder in lines, in wool uniforms, with actual firearms, and shoot blanks at each other for hours at a time, at countless different battlefields and event locations across the country, after which we go home without injury and none the worse for wear?

We've created something incredible and impressive. It has its flaws. But we've still created this hobby literally out of nothing, we maintain it on our own enthusiasm and volunteerism, and we sustain it on the blood, sweat, and tears of a disproportionately small number of individuals who work their butts off to make events happen (especially the smaller, local events).

If the most we can complain about are our own top-heavy command structures and the farbiness of certain units and events, from the bigger perspective, I think we're doing pretty good.

[PaperPusher]

The whole upshot of this is that we all, officer/nco/rank and file/civilian, have a stake in the success of an event.

Well said Bernard.

[OVI]

The whole upshot of this is that we all, officer/nco/rank and file/civilian, have a stake in the success of an event.
Don't just attend events; buy into them...

Which is precisely why reenactors need to put on their own events. Stop being just consumers and become owners. I personally support buying into a reenactor run event versus an event run to make investors money. I trust our priorities over theirs.
It worked in the West for years and raised a lot of valuable money for preservation as well.

Kent Dorr - Winter Quarters in Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[Bill_Cross]

I haven't been on this forum for very long, but it seems like we have one new "how to save the sinking hobby" thread about every day.
You notice that, too? ;)

[KeithRK]

I haven't been on this forum for very long, but it seems like we have one new "how to save the sinking hobby" thread about every day.

Welcome to the "Off Season" Brett.

[indguard]

Despite the "it's the off season gripes," we have for sure seen the number dwindle over the last few years, though. My guess is that we will see a major low right after the 150th events (all of which will likely disappoint everyone somehow or another). A ton of older reenactors will retire after the 150ths.

But Colonel Dave is right. The thing is, as officers we ARE just suggesters nor orderers! And this is why it is practically impossible for an event head to "force" everyone to "do it right."

When it comes down to game time we will still have to make compromises to make the event come off at all.

WTH
The DoItMyWay mess

[bob 125th nysvi]

6. In the discussions regarding authentic vs non-authentic, keep in mind that as long as you ......... are circumcised

Just as a historical point of accuracy, circumcision was practiced by a variety of cultures well prior to the the time of Christ.

It was not limited to the Hebrew faith nor people born after 1860.

[bob 125th nysvi]

1. The single most important concept to remember with all of our issues is the lack of true authority of the leadership. From the NCO up to a General with 4 stars, his authority within the reenacting community is only what that community will grant or allow.

Our leadership HAS authority because we have endowed that leadership with authority. Now granted that only stems to officers/ncos that we have direct input on their leadership capacity but indirectly it can extend a good deal farther.

For example: The officers/sgts in my unit are elected on a three/two year basis. However prior to standing for election they have to demonstrate knowledge commensurate with the position they are seeking election for. Part of my vote electing an individual to a position is the implicit acceptance on my part that I am going to treat my superiors as if they had the authority of a court-martial behind them.

As a member unit of the Mifflin Guard we have input on who holds which positions (militarily) with in the MG. Again, we as a unit, by agreeing to be part of the MG are also agreeing to follow our superiors as if they had full authority behind them.

HOWEVER, I have no input on who is given command as a particular reenactment. I follow the "General" (Let's say Tony Daniels as an example) because MY chain of command agrees to follow him.

It quite honestly has never occurred to me to NOT follow an order given by someone of higher rank. I'm here to ACT like a soldier and that is what I do.

And let me tell you I have followed some real dunderheads in my time (as did the REAL soldiers) because that is what the REAL soldiers did.


2, That said, the leadership can only influence the decisions of the general membership by openly supporting a particular event, reenacting style or associations with other units.

Now as a LEADER in my association (I hold a Board position, an Association Officer position and a number of other positions) it is not my job to support a particular event, reenacting style or association with other units.

It IS my job to determine what events suit the already agreed upon 'style' our unit has and to sell the unit on the merits of that event verses another event.

But it is ALSO my job to encourage the unit to change things that aren't authentic (with in the bounds of our philosophy). As an example if I am aware that we are doing something that is a 'reenactorism' verses what was actually done it is my job (even though my military rank is private) to point out the problem to my officers/ncos, advise them of the correct procedure and encourage its usage.

Maybe I am fortunate to be in a unit that encourages open dialogue. But then I don't think we are an exception and that other units are willing to be lead to greater accuracy.



3. Thus, despite a huge pool of individuals who portray a military organization with the established "chain of command", there truly is no such thing. There is only a chain of suggestion.

4. I learned early on that every command ends with the silent word, "Please".

I respectfully suggest you are approaching this very VERY wrong and maybe you need to rethink where you are in your unit's "leadership".

To take this out of the realm of reenacting have you ever played non-professional organized sports? If you are on a team and the QB calls a play, he doesn't say "please" he doesn't ask, he (and every other member of the team) expects you to run the play as called. There is no thought process on anyones part that you can go do as you please. That is NOT the concept of team.

If you truly believe your statements above ask yourself is your unit truly a TEAM. And if not whose fault is it, your's as the QB or their's as your teammates.

Either way you need to get it straightened out.

[Micah Trent]

3. Thus, despite a huge pool of individuals who portray a military organization with the established "chain of command", there truly is no such thing. There is only a chain of suggestion.

Or chain of opinion.

From my experience, you can tell a difference between a group who uses chain of command and who doesn't. As for me, I prefer and use chain of command...and have never had to say please. But there are no two groups out there the same.

From your post, I take it that chain of command is not used in your group or you prefer not to use it. So I guess anyone can go tell anyone what they please, no matter who is in charge? :confused:

[Micah Trent]

I respectfully suggest you are approaching this very VERY wrong and maybe you need to rethink where you are in your unit's "leadership".

To take this out of the realm of reenacting have you ever played non-professional organized sports? If you are on a team and the QB calls a play, he doesn't say "please" he doesn't ask, he (and every other member of the team) expects you to run the play as called. There is no thought process on anyones part that you can go do as you please. That is NOT the concept of team.

If you truly believe your statements above ask yourself is your unit truly a TEAM. And if not whose fault is it, your's as the QB or their's as your teammates.

Either way you need to get it straightened out.

Good analogy. Great point!

[Colonel Dave]

...when I read the last two posts. The statement about commands ending with a silent "please" is an observation intended to remind holders of rank that the soldiers they command will likely follow them and obey their orders.....until they adamantly disagree with an order. It is rare, thank goodness, but officers need to remember that their "authority" is extended to them by the grace of those they command. As long as an officer keeps that in mind, the issue will never be an issue. I have had one command ignored in my 40 years. Prior to a parade, the men were watching some "go go" girls dance. I gave the command to come to attention so we could move to our staging area. Didn't happen.
As to Bob's statement that I need to figure out where I am in my unit's leadership....I have the pleasure of commanding the largest Western Federal organization. Perhaps my approach seems to work. There are some great points raised and, Bernie, you are right about what the private needs to bring to the table.
But, as long as we recognize the limitations mandated by the very system we have created, we can work to improve that system.

[OVI]

Good post Col Dave. What then, do you see as the most important issue facing the hobby going into the 150ths and beyond?

Kent Dorr - Winter Quarters in Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[indguard]

Dave is right we are only officers because our people LET US BE officers. Bob Sandusky seems to have some sort of reading comprehension problem because he simply restated Dave's exact point yet thought he was disagreeing with Dave!

"Our leadership HAS authority because we have endowed that leadership with authority," is EXACTLY what Dave was saying. The "silent please" was a direct statement that the order is accepted because "we have endowed that leadership with authority."

WTH
The WhatHeSaid mess

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I believe it was Baron von Steuben who commented that in Europe you give an order to a solider and he does it, but for Americans you explain to them why they must do something and then they do it.

Individual units can formally structure themselves with the "legitimate power" of a constitution or by-laws that those joining the unit (and wishing to remain a part of) agree to abide by.
Where that falls apart is at the reenactment where one gets "placed under" under a lad wearing higher rank. (And that can vary, where lads draw the line as to how great or how little skill or competency they are willing to serve under, er, put up with. Once Upon a Time, as a captain of a 40 man unit, we refused to serve under a local senior citizen who knew nothing about directing troops on the mock battlefield but was friends with the Chamber of Commerce and park hosts and had a Confederate general's uniform of sorts.)

On the other hand, our battalion C-in-C, a major, at Antietam 135 was a hobby political
entity who had scribbled down a few company level commands he kept pulling out of his cuff and reading as he tried to "maneuver us out a telephone booth." And we followed his orders because we had agreed to.

But being a voluntary association of lads, that unit was destroyed and died when the former original Benign Dictator/Founding Father who had quit declared an illegal election to get his slate of officers into power. When his candidates received only three votes versus 19, he and candidates "mutineed" and were able to throw out the unit constitution and fragmented the unit to death.

While it may be true one cannot lead lads where they do not want to go- sometimes one cannot lead them where they want to go because they do not all agree on how to get there.

:)

Getting to "yes," is the skill of achieving win-win's for all concerned, or that what they are giving up gets outweighed by what they get at the end of the day or the end of the event.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[Bill_Cross]

Being a voluntary association of lads, that unit was destroyed and died when the former original Benign Dictator/Founding Father who had quit declared an illegal election to get his slate of officers into power. When his candidates received only three votes versus 19, he and candidates "mutineed" and were able to throw out the unit constitution and fragmented the unit to death.
Having seen one unit destroyed and another harmed severely by hobby politics, I would add only this: units are clubs, and as such prone to the same tensions as other groups outside the hobby. I am not sure why so many of us in reenacting are so cantankerous and hard to get along with, but it seems to be so. I have never had people in other walks of life "turn" on me the way they have in this hobby.

Sort of reminds me of the church I used to attend. ;)

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"I have never had people in other walks of life "turn" on me the way they have in this hobby. Sort of reminds me of the church I used to attend."

Amen!

With the scars to prove it...

That might would be an interesting topic for a new thread: What is it about reenacting that turns so many otherwise "good people" into selfish, conceited, ill-mannered, rude, hostile, angry, violent, lying, conniving, deceitful, back-stabbing, traitorous, manipulating, miserable low life excuses for Human Beings?

Did I leave any attributes out...trying to be... kind?

:) :)

CHS
Not a member of Herr Bill's church Mess

[TheQM]

Hallo!


That might would be an interesting topic for a new thread: What is it about reenacting that turns so many otherwise "good people" into selfish, conceited, ill-mannered, rude, hostile, angry, violent, lying, conniving, deceitful, back-stabbing, traitorous, manipulating, miserable low life excuses for Human Beings?

Curt,

Everybody I've met in the Hobby have been trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

You and Bill X must still be attending the wrong events! :)

[Colonel Dave]

I wish I could post a list of what we need to do to improve reenacting.
I believe that we have tools now that we didn't awhile back. This very forum gives the private with no experience the very same weight of his opinion as the most seasoned general. The internet can be used to improve communications but it also provides a cloaked method of sabotage, politicing and spreading dissent. Heck, it used to take weeks for something stupid I did or said to make it's way around the campfires....now it is overnight.

Add the problems of two real wars with real deaths, gas prices and the economy in general to the mix and it is a wonder we have reenactments at all. It is probably counter-productive to have so many events. In the midwest, we have a big problem with competing events on the same weekend, thus, reducing the size of the turnout by picking a certain date. Some efforts are underway to induce host sites to move their event dates to reduce the problem but it is a long way between "efforts are underway" and success.
The politics of reenacting is probably the largest evil within our ranks. If I knew how to resolve that problem, I would be living on a beach somewhere.
Transparency is a first step, making it more difficult to have hidden agendas, secret agreements, etc. I know of a former commander of a huge Western organization, brigade size, that unseated the previous commander by secretly gathering proxy votes, despite his oath to the commander that he had no intention to run against him. When the annual meeting occured, this person produced enough proxies that were obtained over the telephone to take over the organization. Until that moment, the two were close friends and dined and traveled together. There are other stories I could tell that probably only I know, just from my position and time in the hobby....but this is not the format.
Perhaps if the hobby/lifestyle can reduce the effect of politics, it/we can move on to more pressing issues.

[yerbyray]

List,

My opinion of what will bring this hobby to a grinding halt is racism and the overtly loud practice of injecting modern political opinions around our camps. Let the correct set of ears from the general public overhear "anti this administration" or "Pro this administration", a racial slur, or some other non-sense and the negative consequences will go through our ranks like double canister.

I get amused when I look at a unit website and they have a disclaimer attached that they are not a "hate group" or some other message trying to take the heat off of them. This is a red flag that they know something is amiss.

I have sought and still seek a unit I can attend with and not hear racial references, modern politics, or other non-sense opinions that don't have to do with the event we are attending.

Once one unit gets busted for saying or allowing hate talk or pushing a modern political agenda that doesn't quite jive with the norm; the general public will have a hard time determining the differences between the good from the bad; all they see is wool and muskets. This is the case when one bad apple can spoil the entire barrel.

Go visit the campfires around your units and listen to what is being said and you will understand.

[Artyman]

I think that there are two areas regardless of the politics where officers as officers are important to what we do. As far as living the history is concerned they are supposed to act the part, just as the rest of us do, but, there are two areas where they have a more important role.

First, safety! The sargeant in the rank, lieutenant behind you in the ranks, the colonel in the front, the general on the horse, all are the watchmen of safety. They need to understand the implication of what they order the men to do during the tacticals or whatever. While it is true that it is each man who has the last say in whether he will be safe by the example of his own actions, it is the officers who oversee it all and best able to observe when a situation is getting serious. They should, if not be the last word on the subject, at least be the first word on it and have the courage and authority to act upon any infraction how ever big or small, even if it means pulling a man from the ranks who can't keep his hands off the ramrod (as an example).

Second, authenticity. Your unit commander what ever he is, holds the respect of the men in his unit. It is up to each unit to police their units up to what ever standards that unit holds. When the formation is called for inspection he should take a leadership role and tell the guy that the shoes are wrong, or the kilt and Balmoral needs to stay in camp. He needs to conduct training and drills to ensure correct proceedures and evolutions. Where a soldier may be the first step in committing an authenticity error, it is that unit commander who allows him to take it to the field. I would not deliberately defy my unit commander if he says "no" and IMHO neither would you. General officers commanding brigaded units may not have the authority to tell a private from another unit that his kit is wrong, but the unit commander certainly has that reaponsibility.

As far as what officers do otherwise, well, anybody who is put in charge of something can screw it up whether they be rankers or brass or civilian. At least officers often have more experiance in planning these things and that would, in my opinion, qualify them to run an event. I know I don't want any part of that! I did it too much in the 80's as it was and it was way over rated.

Harry

[Bill_Cross]

Everybody I've met in the Hobby have been trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

You and Bill X must still be attending the wrong events! :)
Bill R, your personality is such that it would take a real psychopath not to like you!

But attending events involves one set of experiences, while organizing them or trying to work with others in places like the various fora involve a different set. This is the only hobby where a certifiable lunatic called me on the phone to scream and rant about something he was convinced applied to him (it did not) after encouraging me to start a group that he then tried to scuttle (inevitably, the group fragmented at least twice).

There is a similar troll in the plastic modeling online community, but he apparently works for one of the Asian manufacturers, and is a "stalking horse" for their POV at the expense of their competitors. The hobby is also segmented into "OOB (out of the box) builders" and "rivet counters" (our "stitch counters"). But the amount of rancor and hatred that I saw on the two fora from 2001 until perhaps 18 months ago seems harder to find in other hobbies (though I saw a lot of nuttiness in kid sports when mine were growing up).

[Artyman]

It's much easier to tongue lash a guy over the net than it is to insult him to his face. Especially when the guy doing the insulting might be a pumkin headed little nerd who was abused socially while he was out in the real world. It's easy for such folks to become obsessed with some minor detail (like the eyes on a plastic miniature) and then defend and attack to the death over the matter because little else of note in life ever comes to him to be an authority over.

Then of course there is the guy who IS a substantial person who is just wrong. An example is the owner of a rather well known carburetor rebuilding company who couldn't wait to get into arguments over using more than one carb on a six cylinder classic Mustang. He'd leap into any Mustang forum thread that began to discuss multiple carb set ups. I got into it with him over the tri-power set up I have on my 65 six cylinder. I tried to buy three carbs from his company and he refused to sell them to me stating that they wouldn't work and I'd be sorry.

Shortly after that hastle a leading Mustang magazine challenged him to an actual dyno meter test at his company facility. He agreed, full of the certainty that he'd embarrass the magazine folks. Instead he discovered he was wrong and a built up 200 CID six could be made faster by multiple carb use. The article was published and this gentleman has since recanted his position.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/60sRefugee/P1050004.jpg

But just think of the damage done over all the years he had unilaterally set himself up as THE authority on the subject.

Same thing happens here. I'm not so sure that every subject that gets argued over and eventually closed by a moderator is ever actually so "black and white" as the poster might think it is.

PS, the trophy is for "Best Engine" that I won after entering my 65 in a car show in 2008. Sure made the "big block" boys jealous!

IMHO

Harry

[lojafan]

"6. In the discussions regarding authentic vs non-authentic, keep in mind that as long as you have fillings in your teeth, are circumcised and drove to an event, no one is truly authentic. What one person percieves is a truly authentic impression may not be the same as the next guys perception. It then becomes a matter of personal interpretation and not factual."

Sir, with all due respect, with an attitude like that toward authenticity, no one WILL want to be as authentic as possible. It gives a "why even try" thought to the subject. No, we can't be 100% authentic, because we didnt fight in the war itself. But saying authenticity is a matter of personal interpretation and not factual, is crazy when you can go down to your local library or closest university and find out more about some of these units than you would ever imagine. It's 10% effort, 90% attitude to be authentic.

[flattop32355]

Let's get this one out of the way first, if the moderators will indulge:

You can't get rid of modern political talk by participants of this hobby. We are first and foremost modern people. We live in the here and now, and only do this "other thing" as a hobby. We're going to bring to that table all the things we already are. The trick is to limit the modern while doing the past. For some, that means all weekend long, while for others it's only while the spectators are around. There's no cure, and so long as it doesn't become detrimental to the group or malignant in conversation, about all one can do is be tolerant. It is not always easy.

Reenactor politices is a whole 'nother subject, and takes any number of forms. It even has specialties, such as that for electing officers of organizations, and among those putting on events, and between reenactor organizations. It can even expand out of simple personality conflicts to blossom into unit and organizational disagreements.

It, too, cannot be put back in the bottle, short of eliminating all humans from reenacting. It can, however, be minimized and de-emphasized; the differences recognized and acknowledged and common ground for agreement brought to the forefront.

It is human nature to concentrate on our differences while ignoring our similarities, even when those differences are mere semantics rather than of substance. Again, there's no cure, only the hope that we can recognized the fact and deal with it in a mature fashion.

As with some of you, I don't always live up to my own expectations in dealing with it.

[bob 125th nysvi]

As to Bob's statement that I need to figure out where I am in my unit's leadership....I have the pleasure of commanding the largest Western Federal organization. Perhaps my approach seems to work. There are some great points raised and, Bernie, you are right about what the private needs to bring to the table.
But, as long as we recognize the limitations mandated by the very system we have created, we can work to improve that system.

between rank and leadership.

Rank comes because some system has said you are incharge (it can be a team, a reenacting unit or the real military).

Leadership is about people following you because they believe you are leading in a good direction.

If you have a clear picture of the future, and you are an effective leader, then the future should NOT be murky.

If you as a leader do NOT have a clear picture of the future then you are right, the future is murky.

From the title of this thread (which you started) I have to ask DO YOU have a clear picture of what the future is? IF NOT develop one and impart it to your followers or step aside for people who DO have a clear picture of where they think your organization should be heading and allow them to lead.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Dave is right we are only officers because our people LET US BE officers. Bob Sandusky seems to have some sort of reading comprehension problem because he simply restated Dave's exact point yet thought he was disagreeing with Dave!

"Our leadership HAS authority because we have endowed that leadership with authority," is EXACTLY what Dave was saying. The "silent please" was a direct statement that the order is accepted because "we have endowed that leadership with authority."

WTH
The WhatHeSaid mess

which is why, in any endeavor I have ever been in, when a "leader" says "The future is murky", I KNOW there is a problem with the leadership.

Right or wrong, a LEADER has a vision of where he is leading to, has the ability to impart that vision to the team, an ability to develop strategies to get there and the courage to not only take the risks but the courage to say, this is wrong we need to change.

[TheQM]

Bill R, your personality is such that it would take a real psychopath not to like you!

Bill Cross,

I like to think I'm pretty easy to get along with; but I've been told the old First Sergeant pops up from time to time. I do my best to keep him under control.

The problem with the Hobby is passion. We are passionate about what we do, no matter what it is we are doing and none of us wants to be told that what we are doing is wrong.

It would be helpful if people remembered that what we do is indeed a hobby.

[Micah Trent]

The problem with the Hobby is passion. We are passionate about what we do, no matter what it is we are doing and none of us wants to be told that what we are doing is wrong.

I think this effects the hobby as whole and not just any specific f/m/p/h/c, etc..that is when people do something wrong, they don't like to be told so, because they cannot handle constructive criticism.
Sometime people think they are that good, but really stink up whatever it is. You see this a lot with just the basics. Then when they get told of an error they did, rather then accept it and apply it, or even admitting to it, they get all bent out of shape. Yes, this is where pride and ego gets in the way and shows really bad. It can make or break a unit.

[Artyman]

Yeah, happened to me at Zoar. I didn't get my weapon elivated as much as the rest of the line and the sargeant told me so. My first response was negative even though I knew he was right!

Harry

[Artyman]

And further than that Bernard, when do we actually need to be period first person? When someone is looking? After the crowd leaves? Only during a demonstration? Everyone has their own opinion about this too. Do I spoil the event for one person if I'm discussing Viet Nam with another after 6 o'clock?

Harry

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"And further than that Bernard, when do we actually need to be period first person? When someone is looking? After the crowd leaves? Only during a demonstration? Everyone has their own opinion about this too. Do I spoil the event for one person if I'm discussing Viet Nam with another after 6 o'clock?"

Need, want, and expect.... That is what divides the "us and the them's," from the "thems and the us's."

We go to different events together.
We go to the same events differently.

"Different" events allows for lads whose event experience is NOT spoiled by talk of the Nam during the day or after the spectators are gone- to be fine.
"Different" events allows for lads whose event experience IS spoiled by talk of the Nam during the day or after the spectators are gone- to be fine.

But a different lad with different expectations that he not hear talk of the Nam is going to be put out... when both go to the "wrong (for us) events"

Meaning, events, and folks, who have chosen different Mental Pictures will either want to talk or hear about Viet Nam, or not.

If I did not care or mind, I would go to the event where you are talking about the Nam.
If I did care or mind, I would go to a different event where the expectation is that the participants "stay Period."

That way, you (meaning anyone) are free to talk, and I (meaning anyone) am free not to hear.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS
In different hobbies together Mess

[hanktrent]

And further than that Bernard, when do we actually need to be period first person? When someone is looking? After the crowd leaves? Only during a demonstration? Everyone has their own opinion about this too. Do I spoil the event for one person if I'm discussing Viet Nam with another after 6 o'clock?

What Curt said. There's actually no "need" for anyone to do anything historic at all--we could all just wear modern clothes and not even mention the Civil War and just go camping together, like thousands of people do each year.

So the only reason for a group to come together for a particular activity, is if they have some consensus about what that activity actually is. Surprisingly enough, there are enough reenactors whose opinions are similar, that they can actually cooperate to put on activities that they enjoy together, without having their Vietnam conversations stifled if talking about Vietnam is important to them, or without being forced to listen to endless Vietnam conversations, if they want to be around people talking about period things.

Which is why there are different reenactments with different rules. At some events, reenactors can be as farby or accurate as they want to be (though those are actually quite rare). At other events, they're required to be below a certain level of accuracy in some things or they'll be ostracized. At other events, they're expected to be above a certain level of accuracy in some things or they'll be ostracized.

The main problems come when a reenactor feels entitled to do whatever he or she wants, at any event he or she attends.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Bill_Cross]

This is really pretty simple.

Some want to play soldier, shoot their guns, drink beer, and hang out with their friends.

Some want to teach the public.

Some want to experience, as closely as possible without risk to life & limb, what it was like to be soldiers in 186X.

Some want to aggrandize their overstuffed egos by founding messianic cults that nominally are about the Civil War reenacting hobby.

Some want to re-fight the war because of regional or political axes they want ground.

As my friend, Mike Murley once said, there isn't a "hobby," there are many, sometimes conflicting "hobbies."

Streamer and stitch-counter events aren't better nor worse than one another, just different. If you can't see that, then just accept it. Like most things in this world, if we could accept folks who are different, we'd all have a better time.

But if you can't accept it, then please shut the $#%# up. I'm not going to convince you to like what I like, and you're not going to convince me that what I like is wrong.

[TheQM]

The main problems come when a reenactor feels entitled to do whatever he or she wants, at any event he or she attends.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com


Hank,

Funny! Those folks show up at almost every event. No matter where the events fit on the authenticity scale. There are always 5% who figure the rules are for everybody but them.

[flattop32355]

And further than that Bernard, when do we actually need to be period first person? When someone is looking? After the crowd leaves? Only during a demonstration? Everyone has their own opinion about this too. Do I spoil the event for one person if I'm discussing Viet Nam with another after 6 o'clock?

That's going to depend upon the event, Harry, and who's at it.
No simple answer.

All I can say is that, if it's known that some folks are doing first person, try not to do non-period speech around where they are, and when in contact with them, either go firper or just stay quiet. Not saying much or anything is always period correct.

[Colonel Dave]

Please ask your leader what the future of reenacting is and post it here. Since leaders have the answers and the future is never murky to them, I am dying to hear what the leader of your group states as to the future of the hobby. Obviously, the more specific his response, the better.
Thanks

[Bill_Cross]

Please ask your leader what the future of reenacting is and post it here. Since leaders have the answers and the future is never murky to them, I am dying to hear what the leader of your group states as to the future of the hobby. Obviously, the more specific his response, the better.
Thanks
I'll bite.

As Treasurer of the Rowdy Pards, I can say the future is NOT murky: annual dues are now due and the membership will pay-up-- with a little prodding.

The reason, besides loyalty, is the advantage of having liability insurance. An astonishing number of you out there are reenacting unsafely because you don't have (liability) protection. New members are being considered, and the unit will continue to fare probably as well as the hobby in general.

Beyond that, we'll be raising a company of Federals for the Bentonville campaigner adjunct, and are looking at what other good campaigner events are in the offing for the season.

[Jim of the SRR]

Hank,

Funny! Those folks show up at almost every event. No matter where the events fit on the authenticity scale. There are always 5% who figure the rules are for everybody but them.

But it happens far less at events with published and enforced minimum standards.

Jim Butler

[navygunner]

As a Union Sailor I find your take quite refreshing. Our inclusion at most events seems to baffle most commanders.

geo dailey
gunnersmate
U S Naval landing Party (western waters)

[GaWildcat]

Not for us. We have had a huge growth last year, and in this quarter gained one new member.. we are encouraged

[RJSamp]

Not for us. We have had a huge growth last year, and in this quarter gained one new member.. we are encouraged

Come come now....huge growth? Surely you jest, if not outright boast.

How many HUNDRED reenactors did you bring into the hobby and into your unit and didn't cannibalize from another unit?

If your 'huge growth' is 3 or 10 or 20 members from other units that is decidedly NOT huge growth to the hobby....nor to any unit for that matter, IMHO.

[majdoc]

But it happens far less at events with published and enforced minimum standards.

Jim Butler

Jim I will agree with you on that one.
If standards are set then abide by them or don't come.
There are events I did and do not agree with the rules, standards guidlines or whatever you call them. But since I am there I will abide by them.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Please ask your leader what the future of reenacting is and post it here. Since leaders have the answers and the future is never murky to them, I am dying to hear what the leader of your group states as to the future of the hobby. Obviously, the more specific his response, the better.
Thanks

you are in trouble. You don't know what the question is so how could you have an answer.

I CAN answer where our leaders (being one of them) think we are going.

First and foremost we see a thriving Association on sound financial footing because of a robust school education program. We see ourselves as having an ability to impact preservation in a unique way at the local and state level with some help to national organizations.

We see an increase and improvement in the number and quality of living histories with in the region. We also have (and are developing more) contacts with other local reenacting organizations in order to cross support each others activities on both a LH and educational level.

We have developed significant contacts with the event planning organizations of several major and minor municipalities in our area which allows us to have input on the development and presentation of local events.

BECAUSE we have developed these contacts and events on a local and school level we have seen a significant improvement in recruiting in 2099 and expect to have the same in 2010 in anticipation for the 150th cycle.

BECAUSE we have a sound financial footing we have been able to develop some (what we hope will be) significant video recruiting material and are upgrading our website in the hopes of reaching a younger generation of potential recruits.

BECAUSE we have significant financial footing we are able to mitigate much of the costs related to reenacting lowering the barriers to new participants. We can completely outfit 4-5 potential recruits at any event in order for them to get a feel for whether or not they want to participate in the hobby. For those who wish to continue the availability of loaner equipment allows for them to have fewer budget concerns about joining the hobby.

Because we belong to a quality growing overhead unit which had the forethought to join the Federal Alliance we will have for the 150th cycle the ability to field a larger and more cohesive battlefield presence. The draw of this organization is that the quality of the units makes units from lesser organizations want to join us in the field. The vision of our overhead unit is to field an organization that can effectively ACT as a maneuver unit on the field and have a camp that is 'progressive' mainstream with no obvious modern anomalies.

So over all we see the future as pretty bright with new blood coming on board, the development of new leaders both for the Association and Militarily and only boundless opportunities.

By the way the question YOU don't have the answer too is not where the hobby will be at the end of the 150th cycle (which you have absolutely no control over) but where YOU AS A LEADER want to take your unit by the end of the 150th cycle (which you have COMPLETE control over as long as you are in a leadership position).

In short from what I see of your posts on this subject you are a manager not a leader and those are two completely different things (although a quality leader is both).

So maybe your "followers" should be questioning why they are following you if you have no vision.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Come come now....huge growth? Surely you jest, if not outright boast.

How many HUNDRED reenactors did you bring into the hobby and into your unit and didn't cannibalize from another unit?

If your 'huge growth' is 3 or 10 or 20 members from other units that is decidedly NOT huge growth to the hobby....nor to any unit for that matter, IMHO.

you have to look a growth on a unit level and figure it as a percentage of the growth compared to the base of the year before. So for us we saw a growth in dues paying (new) members of about 20% last year. I'm sure the President and other people would have considered comparable growth in the economy as huge.

We can only control reenacting here on a local level and can't recruit nation wide so why worry about nationwide?

And while I abhor raiding members from active units there is a value in bring people from units that exist in name only and never take the field back into more active units. Is that raiding yes it is, but if you get another guy out who hasn't been out in a couple of years you can accomplish something.

By the way one thing we do is offer members of 'inactive' or marginally active units an opportunity to join us at events without becoming members of our organization. This way they can get out enjoy themselves without feeling disloyal and maybe get the fire back to get their unit re-activated. And maybe remind themselves of why they joined this hobby in the first place.

[GaWildcat]

Come come now....huge growth? Surely you jest, if not outright boast.

How many HUNDRED reenactors did you bring into the hobby and into your unit and didn't cannibalize from another unit?

If your 'huge growth' is 3 or 10 or 20 members from other units that is decidedly NOT huge growth to the hobby....nor to any unit for that matter, IMHO.

RJ,

Nope none from other units. All fresh fish.

[Confederal]

Well as I see it the only reason it will be Murky is if you let it. Units come and go,Commanders come and go,People come and go.
You have good events and bad events no matter what part of the hobby you do.
If you chose for it to be Murky it will be.
For Me I am not going to let it happen for me. Not yet anyway.
I will go to events and enjoy my Pards company and hopefully make some new ones.
So what if the numbers are down.
We can still enjoy the hobby if we have the right mindset.
Not what someone else says your mindset should be.
Ron Orange

[MMurphy]

Come come now....huge growth? Surely you jest, if not outright boast.

How many HUNDRED reenactors did you bring into the hobby and into your unit and didn't cannibalize from another unit?

If your 'huge growth' is 3 or 10 or 20 members from other units that is decidedly NOT huge growth to the hobby....nor to any unit for that matter, IMHO.

Wow..RJ...why didn't you just call him a liar and be done with it?
"Huge" is pretty ambiguous in the term. For his unit it could mean "a dozen new members". (Which right now if our unit got that I would call "huge").
Not sure where you got the idea that he was brining them in by the "hundreds", or if you were just measuring him up to your own descriptions...but then if so, let me ask you this: "How many HUNDREDS of Reenactors have YOU brought into the hobby and into your unit, and in doing so, didn't cannibalize from another unit?"

We'll be waiting on your answer...

;)

[GaWildcat]

Wow..RJ...why didn't you just call him a liar and be done with it?
"Huge" is pretty ambiguous in the term. For his unit it could mean "a dozen new members". (Which right now if our unit got that I would call "huge").
Not sure where you got the idea that he was brining them in by the "hundreds", or if you were just measuring him up to your own descriptions...but then if so, let me ask you this: "How many HUNDREDS of Reenactors have YOU brought into the hobby and into your unit, and in doing so, didn't cannibalize from another unit?"

We'll be waiting on your answer...

;)


Michael, Thanks... I appreciate that.:)


Yeah, I guess I'm a liar, and we havent gone from 5 members in 2006 to 22 in 2010... I guess I should be out more recruiting for every unit in the country instead of trying to be a full time student, father of two, and all the other day to day duties I need to attend to, plus the stress of taking care of a coliced horse. Yeah.. for us, it was hugh growth... I also thought about it, and yeah we have members from other units... but they are FRIENDS who joined and do events in Georgia with us when they can, and we reciprocate when we can and do events in FL with them. but the vast majority of our new people are just that.. new people. Thanks for the slam RJ....I am doing my best not to get nasty as it would serve now purpose. Now my turn... I wish you and your unit all the success in the coming year. May you meet your recruiting goals, and have a fun, happy, and safe season.. God Bless

[Rob Weaver]

Is it possible that we view the future of reenacting as uncertain or murky because most of us have never known any other model than the current one, i.e. a few major events annually (presented either for preservation or profit) supplemented by a handful of local events? Our recruiting model is still based around the local unit (although registration for most events is individual). If you came into reenacting in the last 10-15 years, this is the model that's not necessarily sustainable anymore.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Is it possible that we view the future of reenacting as uncertain or murky because most of us have never known any other model than the current one, i.e. a few major events annually (presented either for preservation or profit) supplemented by a handful of local events? Our recruiting model is still based around the local unit (although registration for most events is individual). If you came into reenacting in the last 10-15 years, this is the model that's not necessarily sustainable anymore.

but why isn't the model sustainable anymore?

From where I sit both my unit and my parent organization are growing verses when I first joined the ranks (but probably not verses their highpoint)? And we had 22 events on our calendar last year and turned down a bunch. We're doing about the same this year.

Is it going to change, sure is, everything does change happens (and NO not every change is good ask the Japanese if they believe us 'changing' the landscape of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was "good").

I am truly curious, what about the current model do you not see as sustainable?

[OVI]

I am truly curious, what about the current model do you not see as sustainable?

I cant imagine the hobby continuing without the local unit model. Granted, local doesnt necessarily have to mean a town or even a county, but our units are basically regional CW clubs. They prosper and grow because the folks in them generally agree on the "vision" and they are willing to invest their time and energy to keep them successful.
I think the major trick for a local unit is to build its roster to the size where it has enough willing members to distribute the workload, especially to be active at the local level. This is the key to sustained recruiting needed to keep the unit going. Many units have a number of members who only participate in the "big" events and when the unit isnt big enough to cover their non-participation at local events, the unit begins to decline.

Kent Dorr - Winter Quarters in Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

IMHO, true.

But, yes, the "longer" one has been in the "hobby" (and we perhaps need to define what segment or community of the hobby we are talking about compared to another), the more the rythmns and cycles seem obvious, and the less worry or panic there is at any given moment on the "ride."

And, this can be much like the Parable of the Blind Men and the Elphant, where each of us is encountering or has encountered the same beast but passionately declaring our part to be the whole animal.

CHS
Remembering a unit of his that went from five in 1986 to 40 in 1987 down to a dozen in 1991

[flattop32355]

As I understand it, back in the '60's and '70's, CW reenacting was about all there was, for a number of valid and various reasons.

As its popularity increased, as well as the cessation of the anti-military mentality of those decades, other periods become more acceptable to reenact, both prior to and after the CW.

I would hazard a wild guess that, if you total the number of all types of military period reeanctors during any particular decade from 1970 onward, and allow for population increases, you'd likely come up with roughly an equivalent percentage of folks involved in "reenacting", just spread out over more time periods. A dilution of the reenactor population due to the greater number of periods to reenact, as it were.

Obviously, other factors, such as the present economy, no highly influencial period movies, etc. have also had an effect. But I would guess there's always a certain percentage of folks that are prone to do this (and other similar) crazy hobby.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Quite true.

One reenacting community's loss can be another's gain.

I would point to the rise of the F & I War AND Civil War after the Buy-centennial in the early and mid 1980's.
Or the rise of the War of 1812 that grew from a handful to thousands.
Or the rise of WWI and WWII.

But I believe we have an added dynamic that transcends the ups and downs of the Economy. And that is an aging population and a historically disinterested, distracted, and undereducated young generation under 25 that is not coming or will not be entering into ANY reenacted era or period at rates to replace the "retiring" or quitting over-50/60'ers.

In my mind, and long memory man and child that goes back to the early 1970's... that is the "murkiest" gloom-and-doom possibility.
But, that revolves back to what segment of the ACW we play in. Meaning, IMHO it is more of a so-called "Mainstream" need for "large events" and "national events" because we have/had been able to build 10,000 man, or 15,000 or so man mega-events. Versus the so-called C/P/H segment that is happy to play in "crowds" of 100-200 men or so.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS
The fog is getting thicker where the Future's supposed to be Mess

[hanktrent]

As I understand it, back in the '60's and '70's, CW reenacting was about all there was, for a number of valid and various reasons.

As its popularity increased, as well as the cessation of the anti-military mentality of those decades, other periods become more acceptable to reenact, both prior to and after the CW.

Um, don't forget to factor in the Revolutionary War Bicentennial, when talking about the 1970s. In Massachusetts at the time, I didn't even know there was such a thing as reenacting any other time period besides Rev War. (No, I never did it myself.)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[RJSamp]

you have to look a growth on a unit level and figure it as a percentage of the growth compared to the base of the year before. So for us we saw a growth in dues paying (new) members of about 20% last year. I'm sure the President and other people would have considered comparable growth in the economy as huge.

We can only control reenacting here on a local level and can't recruit nation wide so why worry about nationwide?

And while I abhor raiding members from active units there is a value in bring people from units that exist in name only and never take the field back into more active units. Is that raiding yes it is, but if you get another guy out who hasn't been out in a couple of years you can accomplish something.

By the way one thing we do is offer members of 'inactive' or marginally active units an opportunity to join us at events without becoming members of our organization. This way they can get out enjoy themselves without feeling disloyal and maybe get the fire back to get their unit re-activated. And maybe remind themselves of why they joined this hobby in the first place.

Adding 1 member to a 5 member unit is not HUGE growth, even if it's a 20% increase....ESPECIALLY if the new member came from another unit.....or the new member for unit is still carried on the roster of the old unit or unitSSSS.

Old business proverb: you can't deposit percentages.....only $$$.

I'm not a member of any unit.....although I pay dues to a cavalry unit that has a decent mounted reenactor insurance policy. I'm not worried about any unit 'raiding' other units for membership (I think your use of 'abhor' is a bit over the top), having been a quasi member of dozens of units over the years as an independent 'specialist'. Either the unit meets an individuals needs or it doesn't.....and needs/units/events change constantly.

It's great to bring former reenactors back into the hobby... it's just my opinion that losing 100 reenactors to whatever excuse (including boredom not participating), recruiting 1 son, adding 4 members from another unit, and adding 5 teenagers from a local Venture Scout program is still a net loss of 90 reenactors from the hobby and is NOT huge growth.....even if the 10 new members are added to a '40 name' roster of which 12 show up regularly/monthly to max effort unit events.

Multiple unit memberships are clouding this picture ..... those of you in computer software will immediately recognize the issue.....SELECT DISTINCT LASTNAME, FIRSTNAME, SUFFIX, ADDRESS1, CITY, STATE from CONTACT CNT INNER JOIN ADDRESS Addr ON (Addr.EntityID=CNT.ContactID).

Capiche?

[bob 125th nysvi]

Adding 1 member to a 5 member unit is not HUGE growth, even if it's a 20% increase....ESPECIALLY if the new member came from another unit.....or the new member for unit is still carried on the roster of the old unit or unitSSSS.

Old business proverb: you can't deposit percentages.....only $$$.

I'm not a member of any unit.....although I pay dues to a cavalry unit that has a decent mounted reenactor insurance policy. I'm not worried about any unit 'raiding' other units for membership (I think your use of 'abhor' is a bit over the top), having been a quasi member of dozens of units over the years as an independent 'specialist'. Either the unit meets an individuals needs or it doesn't.....and needs/units/events change constantly.

It's great to bring former reenactors back into the hobby... it's just my opinion that losing 100 reenactors to whatever excuse (including boredom not participating), recruiting 1 son, adding 4 members from another unit, and adding 5 teenagers from a local Venture Scout program is still a net loss of 90 reenactors from the hobby and is NOT huge growth.....even if the 10 new members are added to a '40 name' roster of which 12 show up regularly/monthly to max effort unit events.

Multiple unit memberships are clouding this picture ..... those of you in computer software will immediately recognize the issue.....SELECT DISTINCT LASTNAME, FIRSTNAME, SUFFIX, ADDRESS1, CITY, STATE from CONTACT CNT INNER JOIN ADDRESS Addr ON (Addr.EntityID=CNT.ContactID).

Capiche?

As usual I'm not sure if your being obstreperous or just not getting the point.

To take my unit for example we never HAD 90 reenactors so how could we lose them? And you have no way to determine if 90 reenactiors actually quit the field last year.

There is no national database for reenactors, nor a national organization nor a national anything. So you can't compare anything to "national" because there AIN'T no "national" to compare too. Just national "guesses".

And can say I had a 20% increase in membership without grabbing anybody from another unit with mathematical certainty.

And just because you don't see more reenactors at the events you go to doesn't mean there AREN'T more as a gross number out there, it just means there aren't more where you're looking.

I can quantify how my unit is doing because I have concrete quantifiable numbers to compare them to. I CAN get a pretty good feel on how CW reenacting is doing in my area because again we have relationships with units that CAN quantify their numbers.

What you are doing is trying to make blanket statements about a nation wide interest with no quantifiable information as if you HAD quantifiable information.

And as any computer person can tell you that is the equivalent (mathematically) of shooting at specters in the dark while wearing a blindfold.

Or a waste of good programming dollars to try and prove the unprovable.

Do you capiche?

[GaWildcat]

RJ,

Let me make it simple for you... www.georgiasharpshooters.org

[JEBeedle]

Here are some observations pertaining to issues affecting the future of our hobby/lifestyle/obsession:

1. The single most important concept to remember with all of our issues is the lack of true authority of the leadership. From the NCO up to a General with 4 stars, his authority within the reenacting community is only what that community will grant or allow.

2, That said, the leadership can only influence the decisions of the general membership by openly supporting a particular event, reenacting style or associations with other units.

3. Thus, despite a huge pool of individuals who portray a military organization with the established "chain of command", there truly is no such thing. There is only a chain of suggestion.

4. I learned early on that every command ends with the silent word, "Please".

Mr. Shackelford,
Most groups have elections for their leaders. If the leaders don't do their job then they will elected someone who can.


I have the pleasure of commanding the largest Western Federal organization. Perhaps my approach seems to work

I would disagree with this statement.

[yerbyray]

Can some of the Long running sutlers answer if numbers are increasing or decreasing based on sales? Take shoes for instance. The average reenactor has one pair even if they galvanize or portray different eras. I know there will be the odd man who has a pair for every day of the week as well as some guy (probably a fellow reb) who only has one shoe, but that should give an idea if we are expanding or contracting.

[Artyman]

not a murky one. I think that the numbers are going to climb. They already have in my unit, and not from stealing them or any of the methods suggested so far in this thread. I think that with the allure of the 150th we will see this become a nationwide trend. I believe the officers will continue to learn, and some will be drummed out or voted out and a few will be promoted. New bright young men will put on shoulder straps as well as privates jackets. New exciting repros will continue to be developed. Events of old will continue, new ones will compete for men and weekends. Kids will grow up to riflemen. They will have children. Mainstream and non mainstream will continue to seperate and then gather together. Some will bitch, some will praise. Guys will get drunk at events. Others will brew only the crushed coffee they always have and sleep in the rain. Crowds will gather at events, small childern will be excited at what they see while the teenagers will continue to be difficult....not willing to admit they actually like what they see. Young members will meet and fall in love, old married (and not so married) couples will continue to pack up their camp and then unpack it the next weekend. Smoke will still smell either like wood or sulphur. Some will eat in camp and others at the steak house across the street. Maybe many of you will renew your "Camp Chase Gazette" and save the magazine. Internet forums will continue to educate, communicate, praise and insult. Tents will be pitched, both too big and wonderfully authentic, to mix in with dog tents and shebangs and men wrapped only in their gum ponchos and blanket. The guy in rags will march alongside the guy in a new uniform. Both sides will either win or lose as the plan decides, and once in a while a commander will get it all right and find the new strength to keep going, while remembering the mistakes. A private will get a new Enfield and have it defarbed, and another may buy one just like it and never modify it at all. The experts will preach to the dummies, the dummies will learn and do their best not to embarrass himself or his unit.......

....And I will continue to attend these wonderfully complex human experiances as long as my aching bones will allow me to. I feel sorry for the poor fellow who has not known the joy we have all found in this hobby. I expect there is American Civil War re enacting in Heaven, and many of us will get there to be part of it...if only to complain.

Harry

[Poor Private]

I believe that the hobby is going to stay the staus quo. There will not be any major gains or losses, we will stay the same, about as many join as quit.
BUT if for some reason the media, states, or country decide to get on a civil war bandwagon like they did for the Bicentennial and present all the hoopla then I foresee a big growth. The only ones interested in the 150th are us and our fellow historians.
Those that already come to view our presentations, or watch our sham battles will be the same ones to attend the 150ths. And unless we can find a "gimmick" fairly quick the losses in spactators due to age, and boredom will not be replaced.
Worst case scenerio: I can see lots of small events by us for us , and events with few or no sutlers(good or bad they do help with interest in the hobby). Those regional big events will be smaller and smaller due to lack of sponsors and funds to help absorb the cost of putting an event on. Less financial donations to preservation, less funds from state and federal governments due to economics. I can see the small local events disapearing altogether due to no funds at all.

[Colonel Dave]

When I posted the future is murky, nowhere did it state that I did not have a vision, a plan or any idea what is to happen next. The purpose of the post was to solicit the input of others as to what they see as the future of this hobby/lifestyle. Instead, I found my command style criticized and being told, in so many words, I do not deserve to be a leader if I feel like the future is murky.

I feel like the future holds many promises for the hobby and the approaching 150th series may well infuse the hobby with energy unlike what we have seen in the past 10 years. Hopefully, Hollywood and the media will latch onto the events and provide coverage and exposure that will generate recruits.
The largest problem I see is the retirement of many experienced soldiers who have been "hanging on" for the 150th series. Like them or not, their experience and knowledge has kept the drills accurate and the battles somewhat correct. If you have different experiences, you are fighing under the wrong officers. Ask any midwestern yank or any unit that has drilled under me and you will have a better understanding. Afterall, the 3rd Division at the 145th Gettysburg did Division drill....who else did that? So don't preach to me about a lack of vision.
Lastly and to the person who challenged we are the largest midwestern Federal organization, I defy anyone to cite an event in the last DECADE wherein their organization (with only their members) outnumbered the Cumberland Guard and their affiliated units of the Great Lakes Battalion, the Black Hats and the MDM....all who are in the Guard.
$50 bucks if you prove me wrong.
So, in closing. I have a great deal of vision and plans for the future. They will be implemented by the various battalion commanders at the appropriate time and the organization will be a strong and viable as it has ever been.
Now,the murky part is still there since it is impossible for anyone (no matter how good of a leader they are) to predict gas prices, another war that saps our already thin military, a further or deeper depression and a thousand other non-reenacting issues that directly affect the hobby/lifestyle. THAT'S what I meant about the murkiness.

[Jim of the SRR]

Here are some observations pertaining to issues affecting the future of our hobby/lifestyle/obsession:

1. The single most important concept to remember with all of our issues is the lack of true authority of the leadership. From the NCO up to a General with 4 stars, his authority within the reenacting community is only what that community will grant or allow.

2, That said, the leadership can only influence the decisions of the general membership by openly supporting a particular event, reenacting style or associations with other units.

3. Thus, despite a huge pool of individuals who portray a military organization with the established "chain of command", there truly is no such thing. There is only a chain of suggestion.

4. I learned early on that every command ends with the silent word, "Please".

5. As the future of what we do is discussed, it must be kept in mind that if there are 7,137 reenactors at an event, there are 7,137 opinions as to how the event should be run, how accurate the scenarios are and if the event is worth returning to.

6. In the discussions regarding authentic vs non-authentic, keep in mind that as long as you have fillings in your teeth, are circumcised and drove to an event, no one is truly authentic. What one person percieves is a truly authentic impression may not be the same as the next guys perception. It then becomes a matter of personal interpretation and not factual. When it comes to personal opinions, see #5.

7. The future of what we do is an evolutionary process and no amount of website posts or back room politics can predetermine how the 150th Gettysburg will play out. We can affect the outcome but only by degrees and not by decrees.

I agree with you totally on #1 & #2. This is a hobby and people will use their time to attend and support events and people they trust and meet their needs.

#3 I do not totally agree with. Yes, this is not a REAL military and people can leave at any time. However, at many events the military chain is followed. not just for appearances or acting, but for real safety and communication. The chain of command (however militarily fictitious), still has a critical role in logistics, communication, maintaining scenarios, safety, enforcing minimum standards, etc. There must be some mutual understanding by reenactors that they follow the chain of command so these issues are addressed. Everyone can't show up and just do their own thing and have the event meet its goals. Everyone still reserves the right to leave if some request seems foolish and/or dangerous.

#4 I agree with, but only goes half way. Most reenactors shouls also remember the "thank you" that many of their leadership deserve. It may seems like many leaders may just show up with straps and start barking orders. However, many leaders I know (in mainstream and c/p/h) spend many hours before events building a company roster thru emails, phone calls and other communications. Many spend their own money and time planning period activities for their groups (mail calls, pay calls, rations, newspapers, etc, etc). There are also organization issues to address before and during events in regards to logistics, food, water, wood, scenarios, vignettes, schedules, etc, etc. It seems like the people who chafe about poor leadership, have the least understanding about what it entails.
Despite leaders not having any 'real' authority, can one still then hold them responsible when things go wrong? There is either REAL responsibility or there is not. I think most leaders take their responsibility as real because it is the right thing to do and at some events critical.

#5. I agree, but many reenactors go to the same poorly run events over and over again and continue to gripe about it. In the mainstream, leaders and organizers have a responsibility to follow the pre-set scenarios (scenario busting is selfish and looks foolish in most caes), enforce force ratios (doesn't happen anymore in the mainstream), enforce minimum event and impression standards (if any even exist), etc. So, when all these things fail to happen, I have to ask why people continue to go to these events?

#6. I call BS on this one. Yes, no one can be 100% authentic. But, this argument is just an excuse to not progress and to do things that are not historically accurate ("well I drove to the event, so since I can't be 100% authentic, I may as well break out the cot and cooler", "I served in the real military, so I have earned the right to my cot", "We don't drink out of the creek, so why bother trying?", etc.). Historical facts are not up to ones perception. They are either documented or they are not. Some things can be debated as there may be little or contradictory evidence, but for the most part, most COMMON soldier impressions of the CW are doucmented in man, material, pattern and method.

#7. I think the 150ths will see various events from large mega-events to smaller, historically accurate, living histories. Many reenactors will take part in the full breadth of 150 event offerings. But, without any enforced minimum standards, I don't believe an event can portray anything close to historically accurate. From experience, the outcome will be the same at the larger events as they always have been...lots of bad impressions, no enforced standards, poor force ratios and powder burining scenarios that do not attempt to replicate anything historical. It is what it is and I have no illuisions about it. Things don't seem murky at all. It will be the same as it ever was. The question is will the leadership have the stones to fix these problems?

Jim Butler
SCAR
www.scarreenactors.com

[JEBeedle]

The largest problem I see is the retirement of many experienced soldiers who have been "hanging on" for the 150th series. Like them or not, their experience and knowledge has kept the drills accurate and the battles somewhat correct. If you have different experiences, you are fighing under the wrong officers. Ask any midwestern yank or any unit that has drilled under me and you will have a better understanding. Afterall, the 3rd Division at the 145th Gettysburg did Division drill....who else did that? So don't preach to me about a lack of vision.

Now Mr. Shackelford are we talking about you?


Lastly and to the person who challenged we are the largest midwestern Federal organization, I defy anyone to cite an event in the last DECADE wherein their organization (with only their members) outnumbered the Cumberland Guard and their affiliated units of the Great Lakes Battalion, the Black Hats and the MDM....all who are in the Guard.
$50 bucks if you prove me wrong.

Ok so you are saying that all those units belong to the Cumberland Guard right? I belong to one of the organization that you mention and I don't seem to remember them saying that we were apart of the Cumberland Guard.

All I have to say in closing is My stick bigger than yours!:roll:

[indguard]

... ask me this thread right here (and this board in general) is a perfect reason WHY we have so much trouble in this hobby. Sadly the way some of you hardazzes went out of your way to misinterpret ColonelDave's post is typical of the obstreperousness that exists in droves. Especially on this board, people are more interested in purposefully looking for controversy, so eager to find ways to call someone out on something real or imagined, that it reveals the essential reason why this hobby will never improve and will likely almost disappear after the 150ths. It might deserve the death, too.


WTH
The SickAndTired mess

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

More than politics, more than the economic climate, and much more than "us vs. them", the number one reason this hobby is looking dim is the average age of the reenactor. Go to any event, pick any company, and then compute the average age. Simple math and aging is telling us that things are on the decline.

[bob 125th nysvi]

The largest problem I see is the retirement of many experienced soldiers who have been "hanging on" for the 150th series. Like them or not, their experience and knowledge has kept the drills accurate and the battles somewhat correct. If you have different experiences, you are fighing under the wrong officers. Ask any midwestern yank or any unit that has drilled under me and you will have a better understanding. Afterall, the 3rd Division at the 145th Gettysburg did Division drill....who else did that? So don't preach to me about a lack of vision.

The entire Mifflin Guard plus we rebuilt the danged fence between the battles! Where was YOUR leadership when there was WORK to be done!

More evidence of you NOT knowing of which you speak!

[bob 125th nysvi]

More than politics, more than the economic climate, and much more than "us vs. them", the number one reason this hobby is looking dim is the average age of the reenactor. Go to any event, pick any company, and then compute the average age. Simple math and aging is telling us that things are on the decline.

that the age is going up and that is why local units like ourselves are reaching out to younger generations of potential recruits through communications means that mean something to them.

It is also why we are putting more emphasis on local events. You aren't going to find a local boy to join an upstate NY unit in Bentonville, NC (no disrespect to the fine people of Bentonville you just happen to be a handy near future example).

And that is why we are working hard to make it easier for people with limited means to join up and enjoy the hobby at a reasonable cost.

But that being said have things "declined" I'd agree yes they have.

BUT are they IN decline, I'd say No. I see people out there all the time working to reverse the situation as opposed to whining about "a murky future".

You've only lost the battle WHEN you throw in the towel.

[Anders]

My hobby is going great....thanks.

Pards,

[flattop32355]

Lastly and to the person who challenged we are the largest midwestern Federal organization, I defy anyone to cite an event in the last DECADE wherein their organization (with only their members) outnumbered the Cumberland Guard and their affiliated units of the Great Lakes Battalion, the Black Hats and the MDM....all who are in the Guard.

Would the Great Lakes Battalion to which you refer be the one that sought to combine the Army of the Ohio and the Indiana Brigade a few years back, or another organization?

Do you consider the First Federal Division as an "organization (with only their members)"?

Lastly, by affiliated, do you mean that these are the units that make up the Cumberland Guard, or are they units with affiliate (non-full) memberships?

Always good to know the ground rules before betting. ;)

[Colonel Dave]

Bernie, that Great Lakes Battalion is a Michigan based group that did not know about the failed Indiana/Ohio endeavor when they formed. It is commanded by Paul Davis.

Mr Bob, we were not aware of any need to repair a fence. We would gladly have helped between DIVISION drills. I am sure you did too......oh wait, your Division didn't drill, sorry. Why even the 1st Brigade had two different commanders for Division drill....Will Eichler on Saturday and Tom Downes on Sunday. It was Tom's first Brigade command and he performed like a veteran.

Lastly,Mr. Beedle, I am not aware of the 1st or 2nd Minnesota being a member of any group other then the Western Brigade.....who is not in the Guard or any affiliation groups.

As for the bet, it must be an event supported by the Guard and not just event the Guard attends, like Conner Prairie.

[flattop32355]

Bernie, that Great Lakes Battalion is a Michigan based group that did not know about the failed Indiana/Ohio endeavor when they formed. It is commanded by Paul Davis.

Thank you. How about the other two questions?

[JEBeedle]

Lastly,Mr. Beedle, I am not aware of the 1st or 2nd Minnesota being a member of any group other then the Western Brigade.....who is not in the Guard or any affiliation groups.

Here is a link for you.
http://www.104thillinois.com/black_hats/bh_bat.htm


As for the bet, it must be an event supported by the Guard and not just event the Guard attends, like Conner Prairie.

Ok, let me get this straight. I need to go to an event that is supported by the guard. So lets tell it like it is. I need to go to an event that YOU are the overall commander.

Alright lets look at your calender.
Billie Creek, Rockville, Indiana
Hastings, Michigan
Jackson, Michigan
Hartford City , Indiana

I will have to think this one over as I read my Division drill manual.:confused:

[indguard]

I need to go to an event that YOU are the overall commander.

Yeah, as opposed to the events where all those OTHER Federal Colonels in Indiana/Michigan/Illinois are in command.... Except that almost no others exist in that particular area.


WTH
The He'sWithStupid mess

[Colonel Dave]

Bernie
1. No, the FFD is not included since it represents a gathering of umbrella groups. I am referring to the umbrella groups themselves.

2. Not neccessarily-my statement applied to many if not all of the past 125's, 130's, 140's and 145's that the Guard supported. It does include actual members and not guys who just show up and fall in with a larger group.

It does include affiliated organizations as stated in my origional post. Mr. Beedle, I stand corrected....welcome to the Guard. I have fond memories of the 2nd at Saylors Creek years and years ago.

Todd, I am not the overall at Billie Creek since I only allowed full scale artillery and the local popgun owners pressured the current owners to install someone who has no problem with five adult men standing over a 12 inch pipe and calling it a mortar. I will not be the overall at an event that not only allows that but encourages it.

Jim Butler (for whom I have a lot of respect since Atlanta), my comment was an effort to temper the zeal of some of the progressives whose attitude can alienate what would otherwise be a receptive audience. I can certainly see how that statement can be misinterpreted but that was not the intent. I know of many guys who want/wanted to work hard to improve their impression until they spoke with certain fellows......it is what it is.

Sigh...any more? I suggest the origional post be reread and the spirit of the message be digested.

[hanktrent]

I know of many guys who want/wanted to work hard to improve their impression until they spoke with certain fellows......it is what it is.

That's what I find frustrating about a lot of reenactors/events/groups: interpersonal relations come first, and history comes second.

If a person no longer wants to study and emulate the past, merely because they don't like what another modern person said, well, they're in a hobby based on a different motivation than mine. Which is why I don't see a murky future at all, for the niche I enjoy.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[bob 125th nysvi]

BMr Bob, we were not aware of any need to repair a fence. We would gladly have helped between DIVISION drills. I am sure you did too......oh wait, your Division didn't drill, sorry.

Yes our division did. Just because you didn't see it (just like you didn't know about work to be done) doesn't mean it happened.

Come to think of it, I didn't see you drilling anybody either. Must not have happened because I didn't see it right? At least that is your definition of what does and does not happen.

And you pathetic attempt to be condescending ("Mr. Bob") just reinforces to outsiders your LACK of leadership skills.

[JEBeedle]

Bernie
1. No, the FFD is not included since it represents a gathering of umbrella groups. I am referring to the umbrella groups themselves.

2. Not neccessarily-my statement applied to many if not all of the past 125's, 130's, 140's and 145's that the Guard supported. It does include actual members and not guys who just show up and fall in with a larger group.

Todd, I am not the overall at Billie Creek since I only allowed full scale artillery and the local popgun owners pressured the current owners to install someone who has no problem with five adult men standing over a 12 inch pipe and calling it a mortar. I will not be the overall at an event that not only allows that but encourages it.

Sigh...any more? I suggest the origional post be reread and the spirit of the message be digested.

Ok so let's review.

The Cumberland Guard is made up of the following units.
Great Lakes Battalion,
the Black Hats
MDM

These are battalion size units

The First Federal Division is made up of the following units
Western Brigade
Army of the Ohio
Frontier Brigade
Muddy River Battalion

These are also battalion size units

I having a hard time seeing the difference between these two groups. Oh wait I know what it is. One votes in their leaders while the other has been run by the same person every year.



I know of a former commander of a huge Western organization, brigade size, that unseated the previous commander by secretly gathering proxy votes, despite his oath to the commander that he had no intention to run against him. When the annual meeting occured, this person produced enough proxies that were obtained over the telephone to take over the organization. Until that moment, the two were close friends and dined and traveled together. There are other stories I could tell that probably only I know, just from my position and time in the hobby....but this is not the format.

I remember a story like that but it went a little different more like he didn't win the electing and then decided that if he wasn't in charge he would form his own organization taking all the units with him. Then making up lies after lies every year. When the new commander who won the electing tried to reconcile with the previous one. The previous commander answer "I own you and the ground you walk on."

[ChrisOwens]

Yes our division did. Just because you didn't see it (just like you didn't know about work to be done) doesn't mean it happened.

Come to think of it, I didn't see you drilling anybody either. Must not have happened because I didn't see it right? At least that is your definition of what does and does not happen.

And you pathetic attempt to be condescending ("Mr. Bob") just reinforces to outsiders your LACK of leadership skills.

Don't you think this might be why the future is murky???

[OVI]

Don't you think this might be why the future is murky???

Same as it ever was.....


Kent Dorr - Winter Quarters in Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"