Looking ahead, part two

[bill watson]

Brother Phil has asked a fine question about 2007 events. Let me get a parallel, noncompeting, complementary thread going.

In 2007, what are you going to be looking for from an event? What will get you off the sofa? Why are you doing this?

Believe me, everybody involved in helping to put on events can use this information. And we need to learn this about each other.

[flattop32355]

In 2007, what are you going to be looking for from an event? What will get you off the sofa? Why are you doing this?

Let's answer the last one first: I do it because I want to. I like doing it, and it gets me away from the "ordinary". Also, it's an activity my son and I can share. It's been interesting watching him grow, in age, height, knowledge and maturity for the past three years. He's no longer the boy that started out in this hobby, but a blossoming young man. Reenacting has helped him do that.

The other two kinda go together for me:
I want a well run event, with clear and concise standards that are upheld, realistic scenarios, and officers who know what they're doing.
I want the event centered upon the reenactors, because if you do that, all the other things fall into place properly.
I want to experience some new things, not necessarily grand, bold ones, but realistic one.
I want the force ratios to be relatively realistic; no 10 Reb/1 Fed just because the event is south of the Mason-Dixon Line, or visa versa if north of it.
I want the chance to interact with the civilian reeanctors occasionally. The armies didn't operate in a vacuum; there were people most everywhere they went.
I want the event to teach me something I didn't know before. How long is a real company sized front? Can you really do a battalion wheel? What's it like to get captured (even if you know it ain't real)? Many, many other things...

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Jubilo]

Dear Captain Bill ,

Having a keen interest in battles , I look towards events that can possibly "reenact " a battle . I have seen some exceptional recreations at portions of Gettysburg , Antietam , Franklin , Perryville , Corinth , et . al . It seems at national events usually one scenario out of three or four will gel perfectly while the others do not for a variety of reasons .
Having an event on the actual battlefield , a battle scenario featuring works ( which focuses the action and limits scenario busting ), or a battle I have never reenacted are all draws for me. I have enjoyed the Monocacy / Assault on Washington , the '06 First Bull Run , Perryville (every year and not just the "national event' ) , and the Battle of Selma for the previously stated reasons . I have never attended New Market , which is to me one of the most interesting battles of the war and perhaps the oldest reenactment but which seems to generate much negative opinion . I look forward to some day reenacting Brice's Crossroads , Trevilian Station , Wilson's Creek , Pea Ridge and the Crater . The "Eastern" versus "Western " , reenactment bias I find boring and counter-productive . History should be the final arbiter.
all for the old flag,
David Corbett

[Henry_Rifle]

All I want is truth in advertising.

[GrumpyDave]

I'd like communication from event organizers. By that I mean when I ask a question via e-mail and include my phone # I actually get a response. And, I can pass on good (or any) information to (until November) my batallion unit contacts for distribution. I think that's fair and resonable.

[bulletsponge]

If doing Signal corps, I'd prefer not to be chasing horses' patooties all over creation instead of signaling. If bugling, I'd prefer not to be used as a runner. And it would be nice if it wouldn't interfere with a particular tractor show I missed this year...

[bill watson]

John, you want to do the things appropriate to the impression. Grumpy Dave wants better pre-event communication and a responsive event hierarchy. Jubilous Dave wants realistic battles. Jack wants an accurate description of the event. Bernie has a whole list, all doable, although getting officers who know what they are doing stands out as something most events don't actually spell out as a requirement or offer any means to make happen.
So far, nobody wants anything ridiculous. Gee, reasonable people. :-)

[FWL]

John, you want to do the things appropriate to the impression. Grumpy Dave wants better pre-event communication and a responsive event hierarchy. Jubilous Dave wants realistic battles. Jack wants an accurate description of the event. Bernie has a whole list, all doable, although getting officers who know what they are doing stands out as something most events don't actually spell out as a requirement or offer any means to make happen.
So far, nobody wants anything ridiculous. Gee, reasonable people. :-)

Bill as I progress in the progressive and/or authentic hobby this what I like to see in order of importance

1) original ground-reenacting marches or battles on original ground has become more important than anything-usually this includes a preservation component.
2) authenticity standards and their enforcement including inspections
3) marches- need to move don't like static situations
4) period food and cooking
5) drill- like it and want more of it-for good drill you need good officers
6) first person
7) period civilian interaction
8) good battles- still like to burn some powder and like authentic battles

regards

[Linda Trent]

Bill,

here's my list:

1) being able to have the faith that the organizers and/or other participants will follow through with the event. This year there has not been one event I've attended, or planned to attend, that hasn't been screwed around with either by the organizer or by participants.
2) authenticity standards and their enforcement including inspections
3) first person action and interaction
4) period appropriate military interaction, on occasion. ;)

Linda.

[bill watson]

1) being able to have the faith that the organizers and/or other participants will follow through with the event. This year there has not been one event I've attended, or planned to attend, that hasn't been screwed around with either by the organizer or by participants.
Linda.

Not looking to give any particular event a bad name, but can you give some hypothetical examples of what "screwed around with" means?

And I find it interesting you are including participants as a source of "screwing around with" as well. Do you mean not coming with the attitude that they have to help make it "work" for everyone? Or something quite literal like ignoring the plan? (Whatever "the plan" was...)

[Linda Trent]

Not looking to give any particular event a bad name, but can you give some hypothetical examples of what "screwed around with" means?

I mean, the organizers pulling the plug on an event. Canceling an event.


And I find it interesting you are including participants as a source of "screwing around with" as well.

I mean small events where everyone's attendance is crucial such as the 1857 Camping Trip. Of course I realize that there's reenactor math and all that sort of thing, we've organized an event or two before. ;) Everyone seemed to think it was a great idea and the enthusiasm seemed to be high. The event appeared as though it was full steam ahead and then the ice-berg blind-sided us, not just 15, 20, or even 50% dropout, but 100%!!! I dunno, but I've never heard of an event called off because not one person registered for the event came.

After the disappointment, Mr. Heath dropped us a line and asked if he could come and do the camping trip for 3.5 days with us. We all had a great time, but it still doesn't erase the fact that not one of the original folk who signed up for the event came.

I think the biggest disappointment comes from people who, for whatever reason, wind up stringing organizers of small events along. I wish participants could just be honest with themselves and the organizer and if they think they can't come for whatever reason (good or bad) they would be upfront and let the organizer know A.S.A.P. rather than string the organizer along.

I think a lot of people who've never organized an event don't know how much work goes into it. The land, the water, the research, the scenarios, the behind the scenes before the event, the little subtle nuances etc. that makes the event more realistic. The history heavy events take at least a year to really research, that's a lot of gas, hours on the road, hours in the libraries, and of course heart and soul.

But it's not just Goldsboro, and the Camping Trip, it's been two carpe' eventums this year as well, and it's enough to sap the enthusiasm right out of participants.

One thing I will guarantee those who are signed up for the 1864 Trial event -- as long as I have a judge, a prosecutor, defending attorney, and defendant -- it will go on! I have all that. :D

Linda.

[tompritchett]

1. Realistic battle scenarios using period tactics and manuevers that are appropriate for the numbers of troops involved and that hopefully use the various branches in concert as they would have been used then.

2. Bn and higher level drills that teach new maneuvers and reinforce prior learned drill.

3. Good attitudes on the parts of reenactors.

4. Enforced event rules, especially in regards to cars in camp and all safety related regulations.

[BobSullivanPress]

I'd like to see events where the camps aren't so doggone far from the vendors as to make it nearly impossible for people to shop. When camps are placed a mile from the vendor area, it is nearly impossible for people to make more than one shopping trip.

I'd also like to see event standards enforced, even from a vendor's perspective, and better communication.

Beginning of rant---------------------------
Thin skinned alert!!!!! I'm not picking on the organizers of the recent first Manassas event at Cedar Creek, I'm just using them as an example of what goes on from a vendor perspective...

I received one letter from them confirming my registration. This was a plus, since most time at events, I just watch my bank statement for my cancelled registration check, as that's the only confirmation I EVER get as to whether I have been placed on the attendee's list or not.

In this letter, it stated that my envelope was my parking pass (it wasn't), my enclosed dog tag would be my pass (it wasn't enclosed) and a pass was never checked, ever, during the weekend.

I stated on my registration form that I would be arriving Friday evening. I was greeted with "Where have you been?", and "You were supposed to arrive no later than Thursday". I mentioned that nowhere on the letter that I received, nor anywhere in the registration information was there any mention of a sutler deadline for arrival. Note to the reader: I have a full time job, so I ALWAYS check to see the latest time sutlers can arrive.

I paid for a 20 foot wide space. I got 14 feet. This necessitated that I turn my tent sideways for the event. Good thing I decided not to take my wal tent, because it literally wouldn't have fit.

End of rant-----------------------------------------------

Now here's my concern about passes being checked, in that they never are.

Someday, at some big event, someone is going to figure out that vendors have a great deal of cash lying around, and some non-registered person is going to walk into an event carrying a weapon (looking like some normal participant), and knock over one or more vendor stands. And all the cops will get on their arrest report is that he was dressed like a reenactor, which would narrow it down to about 5,000 people.

I don't see pass checking as a nuisance. Frankly with the way it's done now, anyone that actually pays to attend a medium to large-sized event is being naive.

[tompritchett]

Someday, at some big event, someone is going to figure out that vendors have a great deal of cash lying around, and some non-registered person is going to walk into an event carrying a weapon (looking like some normal participant), and knock over one or more vendor stands. And all the cops will get on their arrest report is that he was dressed like a reenactor, which would narrow it down to about 5,000 people.

Actually, some have already figured out that they have weapons for sale. I believe it was at the 140th Shiloh that several muskets were stolen from a vendor. Fortunately, if my memory serves me correctly, they were caught in the act at another vendor and the stolen muskets were recovered from their vehicle.


I'd like to see events where the camps aren't so doggone far from the vendors as to make it nearly impossible for people to shop. When camps are placed a mile from the vendor area, it is nearly impossible for people to make more than one shopping trip.

I fully agree. At 1rst Manassas, I never did get a chance to get over to the sutlers although there were definitely items that I needed both for myself and for the unit. I was planning to head over after the Sat. battle but our Brigade commander insisted that all the units march back to camp after the battle prior to clearing weapons and specifically forbade our Bn commander for allowing his company commanders from releasing men that wanted to go to the sutlers. As for Sunday, I would have walked to the sutlers had I not had my wife and another member with me. However, after waiting for over an hour for the ONE shuttle bus, I bagged the trip because I had too much else to do prior to the battle to lose the amount of time that the additional wait, actual trip, and return walk would have entailed.

However, I did at least get to your shop at Hiberna.

[Julio C. Zangroniz]

Dear Mr. Pritchett,
At First Manassas @ Cedar Creek, I walked from sutler row to the Confederate camp twice. Both times, it took me less than 20 minutes to complete the one-way trip, and I wasn't trying to "make good time" or anything like that.
I am, after all, close to 60 years old, so I can't "rush" any longer --unless something big is chasing me!) without facing some nasty consequences. Yet I was able to make the trek on foot both times in *less* time than it took me to wait for and catch a shuttle on Saturday, something I did as a test, just so I could really know what that experience was like.
Normally, I avoid the event shuttles like the plague, because as your account --and my own experience-- have shown, the shuttle system ends up being a waste of time.
For most folks, the hardest part is to overcome the mental "obstacle" of trekking across all that wide open space. But if you are in relatively good health --and even more important, in a hurry-- you will learn (and love) making the trip the ole fashioned, authentic way, on foot.
I wish Civil War reenactments would learn a lesson from Revolutionary War, French & Indian War or North American Rendezvuos events (all of which I have covered for one publication or another).
Most of these events will set up a "Commons Area," about the size of a football field, that is the central core of the event.
In one end of that open space, there is the "activities" tent, where formal programs/presentations/seminars take place. On the other end, there is a "community bulletin board" (usually built out of a standard plywood plank, nailed to two upright posts.
On one side of this board, there is a map of the "encampment," usually with streets that have actual names (identifiable by "posts" along each street), where individual units/groups can actually scribble their location (i.e., "the 26th NC is here", with a black X to mark the spot; on the other side of the board, people can leave more elaborate messages on small pieces of paper pinned to the board for late arrivals, etc.
The system, which I saw in use for the first time at the Eastern Primitive Rendezvous outside of Pittsburgh in 1998, works remarkably well to eliminate a lot of the confusion of late arrivals, etc.
Late arrivals simply head for the Commons and check the board. On one side, they will see where earlier members of the unit have set up their camp. On the other side, they can find individual messages that may have been addressed to them.
And everyone knows where the sutler tents are --ringing the Commons area, with the rest of the camps to one side or other. Maybe the "Civil War reenactment organizing establishment" can find a way to adopt this or a similar system, for the benefit of all.
Julio

[Daniel Keith]

1) If the command structure is going to ask me to not use or wear something because it will not be correct for our situation, don't use modern radios to cordinate troop movements and don't use ATV's to survey a battle field.
2) No cars in camp.
3) Camp closer to sutlers. After marching everywhere, don't be surprised if I don't go to the sutlers during my free time if my camp is a million miles away from the sutlers.
4) Something other than standing face to face burning tons of powder.

[RJSamp]

We've got a record number of higher quality buglers at more events using much more accurate reproductions of period bugles sounding period calls at the appropriate time and place for the correct unit as ordered by a superior officer.....and no one's listening or too few are utilizing / responding to the calls. Doesn't really matter what branch of service, East or West, Mainstream or Progressive or Hardcore....very few units out there can authentically use bugle signals as they did. The list of units of any appreciable size that can measure up is short.

Even if we place a bugle call interpreter next to the commander of the manuever element we are getting very little progress in the utilization of bugle signalled orders *** at a distance ***.

The test is not if the bugler can stand next to the commander, have the CO yell out Forward March and have the bugler sound the call and the battle line steps off by their left foot. The test is at 300 yards in the middle of a battle can we halt a moving Infantry battle line, Cavalry column at the trot, or consistently cause an Artillery Battery to commence AND cease fire.

You're asking the question Bill.

The answer is I want to go back to McDowell in 2007 and use bugles 90%+ of the time instead of 30% of the time for simply Forward, Retreat, Halt, Wheel, Flank, fire/Cease Fire stuff. Don't send runners, don't send riders, don't shout out the order and lose your voice competing over the gun / artillery fire. "Bugler, 1st Bttn, Forward, now" .... sound the prelude, sound the Call, 1st BN's bugler tells the 1st BN CO that the call is for them, and they should go forward.....1st BN CO says make it so scotty....1st BN bugler sounds the Prelude and the Forward and off they go. Faster, quicker, Efficient, saves voices, saves horse flesh, saves runners energy (and possibly their life).

After 7 years of working with Cavalry buglers....we put together the cream of the crop for Morgan's Raid II last weekend. 4 days, 60 miles, hundreds of bugle calls. On Sunday came the big test as manuever elements went out into the field at Portland. Sounded Forward.....Rally....Halt....Recall....To Horse.... nothing, no reaction. The better cavalry buglers like Chris Cook and Roque Haines are in this situation where they need to be next to the commander and echo his vocal command before the manuever element will manuever.....as soon as they're xx yards away they might as well be in the next county. Buglers are going back into the ranks or out of the hobby because they aren't being used......they're bored.

So I'll go to events where commanders want to use buglers as they did.....at a distance.....to manuever both clouds of skirmishers and battle lines....

Mills Springs promises to be a good one next September.....could be as good as....the last Perryville national.

[bill watson]

Boys, shopping is what people who come to the Poconos for their vacations do, out at the Crossings or the Candle Factory. It isn't really why I think most of us are Civil War reenactors. What started as a convenience for static events has emerged as a major driving force behind how a lot of events are structured, and my premise is it detracts from the experience of reenacting the life of a soldier or civilian. I know some events actually structure activities to include "down time" so folks will get bored and go sutlering. Is that what it's all about?

I agree that it is not fair to sutlers to invite them to an event, take their money, then march everyone even a mile or three miles away. Using shuttle buses so people can shop at the sutlers is a compromise that offers the worst of all worlds.. So I guess "pre-event sutlering" by cybershopping and UPS might be the way to go for anyone not selling things a sutler or peddler would be offering in 186x.

So if there's no sutlers, you don't have to walk to the sutlers. Anyway, wouldn't you rather be doing soldierly things?

Totally agree with RJ on bugles. We can do more. We can do more with horses and mules, too, if we could offer the people who have horses, mules, wagons and ambulances, not to mention the remaining horse-drawn artillery groups, a venue where they can operate without dodging the 21st Century at every corner.

[MStuart]

Bill:

While your post is well taken and quite appropriate for the progressive/hardcore crowd that wants as much immersion as possible, not having sutlers at events isn't going to go over at mainstream venues. True, soldiering as much as possible is a plus, but there are those of us that would like to see and visit sutler row. While this internet thing has brought clothing and equipment lots closer to us all and made purchasing things much easier, there are some that don't like to make a CW purchase without seeing and touching it in the flesh, so to speak. For me, clothing is something that I will not purchase without trying on. Same goes for most of my hobby purchases, unless I've bought the same thing from a vendor earlier and know it's quality, look, feel, etc. So, while a huge sutler row mall isn't a requirement, it's nice to know that while I'm at an event, I can pick up something I want/need and can do it, in person, from the vendor.

I have three choices. Buy via internet, drive 4 hours to Gettysburg, or do it at an event. With the 'net, if the item is wrong, doesn't fit, or just isn't right for me, I've got to go through the hassle of returning it by mail or UPS. Getting the right item could take weeks. With the other two, I know what I'm getting on the spot.

Mark

[bill watson]

Bill:

While your post is well taken and quite appropriate for the progressive/hardcore crowd that wants as much immersion as possible, not having sutlers at events isn't going to go over at mainstream venues.
Mark


There will always be events where you can go sutlering. There are not many events where the entire experience is focused on operating like soldiers.

And I believe a great many folks are ready to get more out of their Civil War reenacting weekend than they are getting now. It's not really a "hardcore/progressive" thing, it's why Civil War reenacting came about: To see what it was like. The first time a great many folks attend an event that is based on operating like Civil War units rather than following a schedule that allows time for shopping, a frequently heard comment is "THIS is what I thought it was going to be like when I got involved." It's why hardcore/progressive labels are so five minutes ago: You don't have to be hardcore to want to know what the life of a Civil War soldier was like. It doesn't require anyone to become a different person to do this, it just means changing your expectations of the event and your role in it. Neither does it require exquisite hardship.

Not having modern sutlers is not a new idea, by the way. None of the events put on at national battlefield parks have sutlers, and some of them feature hundreds of reenactors, many of whom don't think of themselves as "campaigners."

It's not really a revolutionary giant idea. It's just a little idea, and one that has already been done.

[tompritchett]

There will always be events where you can go sutlering. There are not many events where the entire experience is focused on operating like soldiers.

Again it goes back to the type, and often the variety, of events that you are attending. There are events, such as 1rst Manassas and Cedar Creek, where one reason for attending is getting to the sultlers for personal and company gear. It is not the primary reason for going but it is a factor. Then there are the events such as Shenadoah 62 where I am going solely for the experience. Large event sponsors, and unit commanders, need to take into consideration that one of their drawing cards is the presence of a wide range of sulters where reenactors can stock up on needed equipment and supplies. Enough said.

[ilfed104]

I would think after a person is in the hobby for a few years the need to go sutlering would be about nil. I've been in the hobby 22 years and in the last 10 years or so probably have not been to the sutlers 10 times. And when I do go it's most likely to get some seegars.

How many and where the sutlers are is the least important thing to me. How the event is run and how the scenarios are carried out is what I care about.

Rick Keating

[FWL]

Again it goes back to the type, and often the variety, of events that you are attending. There are events, such as 1rst Manassas and Cedar Creek, where one reason for attending is getting to the sultlers for personal and company gear. It is not the primary reason for going but it is a factor. Then there are the events such as Shenadoah 62 where I am going solely for the experience. Large event sponsors, and unit commanders, need to take into consideration that one of their drawing cards is the presence of a wide range of sulters where reenactors can stock up on needed equipment and supplies. Enough said.


I agree Tom, but I would point out that at McDowell, Shen62 and even Rich Mountain there were some excellent Sutlers there on Friday night. I bought some good stuff at all of these including some seegars! So its not like anyone at the "campaigner/cross over events" are being deprived of the opportunity to purchase, touch and feel need supplies. Obviously you know this I'm just reminding others of this.

Regards

[Mint Julep]

For the record:

I have not yet posted on this thread, until now, and the comments have already devolved into comparing progressive and mainstream events. I had nothing to do with this.

I guess I'm not the Big Bad Booger Bear that some would have you believe. Maybe I'm not ruining the hobby after all.

You know what would make my 2007 reenacting schedule rock? Seeing X and Anders in the rear rank with a musket at a MOOCOW event. Or not. I can't decide.

MJ