The 150ths

[reddiamond]

Fellows,
What does the hobby, both the event sponsors and attendees, need to do to make the 150th Anniversaries better than past cycles?

I realize that this is opening a big can of worms, but new ideas and better ways to do old ideas should be taken into account.

I know that the hobby was all charged up for three years in anticipation of a 125th First Manassas that may or may not have happened. Units pulled together and make special kits just for this event. I've never seen anything close since. A whole battalion of Louisiana Tigers. The First Minnesota fielded in spades, red shirts and black hats. The Iron Brigade was recreated for the 125th Gettysburg. I saw 100 Berdan's Sharpshooters take the field that weekend. There was a whole battalion of mid westerners in grey uniforms. Any kind of buzz like that or are we too stuck in our own company impressions to actually do an 1861 impression?

The powers to be need to hear from us. Without us the events will not go.

Scot Buffington

[reddiamond]

So,
Is anyone out there making plans for special impressions for the 150th Manassas, or any others for that matter? I assume the "Regulars" are going to turn out in spades. Anyone else?

We have a year and a half. It takes a LOT of time to get impressions together.

Or, are we just going to attend Manassas with our same old kits, corps badges, buck tails, Richmond II's, etc.

I want to see the 33rd VA in blue, the Wisconsin guys in grey shell jackets, the Tigers in all their insanity, the 1st Minnesota in their red shirts, The Black Horse Cavalry, the "Regulars" with their polished brass, the Rhode Islanders with their red blankets and overshirts.............

C'mon guys!!!!

Scot Buffington
farby dude

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Another good post, of which I can only comment from my view as a private in the cheap seats. Guys that I run with all got crazy prepared for the 140th's and 145th's, buying and making alot of gear and clothing that could only be used once every five years, and at great expense. Alot of folks can't do that anymore with the economy, a real war, and families at home. The younger guys have grown up, the older guys like me are really older, so unfortunately, I just don't see the days of 100 guys doing any special impression coming back. I remember just a few years ago and the 145th Manassas/Bull Run event that I spent months preparing documented battleshirts for a unit, just to have 8 guys show up (out of 40 who "planned" to go). I for one will be wasting little energy on a one time impression for the 150th's, and with all likelihood will be portraying a citizen from here on out at larger events.

[reddiamond]

Do you think that we should give up?

The 125th Anniversary events occurred in the middle of the collapse of the steel industry. 1986 was tough.

I don't think it is the cost that keeps people from doing a special impression. It is the will and the mindset. The same people who wear buck tails at Cedar Creek and carry inappropriate flags just don't care about historical scenarios.

The very least that folks can do to improve their 1861 impressions are things like removing corps badges, choosing an issue cap instead of a slouch hat, sew some trim on that CS jacket, polish their brass, blacken their leathers, clean those dirty trousers, etc. The leadership all around the hobby is frightened to ask for these simple things, let along have their guys buy a battle shirt or even a $10 havelock.

I fear that the 150th Manassas will look just like the 150th Cedar Creek.
Why even have it?

Scot

[hiplainsyank]

At the 145th Manassas a few years ago there was a 33rd Virgnia where everyone wore blue frock coats (Federal design mostly, but an attempt was made), there were plenty of battle shirts, a battalion of Marines, plenty of Zouaves, and lots of havelocks. Not perfect, and perhaps not as gaudy as the 125th Manassas, but many put in an attempt to create an early war impression, and if not a perfect one then at least they didn't look the same as 09 Cedar Creek.

[MD_Independent26]

Comrade Buffington. I'm down to working part time. I've got a baby on the way in the spring. Real life is kicking me around. That's ok, though. Build an event that I'd want to attend and I'll beg for, steal, or build the necessary kit. Tell me we'll be marching for a few miles, picking black berries, wading a stream, and smashing up some rebs before we run away, and I'll be there with the proper kit. Add other extras to make it unique, and I'll provide the firewood. Just thinking out loud.

[Jim of the SRR]

This has been discussed already among groups and leaders in the hobby. I can tell you we have TWO DISTINCT hobbies and will have TWO DISTINCT series of 150th events. This does not mean that reenactors won't attend events in both series of events.
But, to your original post, what do you specifically wish to improve upon? Lets be logical here, the mainstream, megafests won't have any enforced guidelines, so I don't see how you are going to get much improvement there. Actually, I see some a lot of regression and very poor impressions flocking to these mega-events. Why? Because you will have guys who have never attended an event wanting to drop in to the 150th cycle with no training, no guidance, poor impressions and no historical knowledge. You will also likely get some veteran reenactors come back out, but with that their old and unimproved impressions from years past (also hoping there won't be 10 ambulances out on the field for every battle as there was at Gettysburg 135th). Since they will be 'for profit' events expect a circus like atmosphere where anything will go.
The other hobby will primarily focus on living history programs at battlefield sites across the country. These will likley have some minimum standards and documented scenarios/demonstrations/camps for the public. Focus will be on a quality vs quantity. Educating the public based on history and not Cirque de Solei.

Jim Butler

[zouavecampaigner]

Scott,

you can believe that Marc, me, and a bunch of b'hoys will be paying our respects to the 1st US Fire Zouaves. We do our best, and get as many guys to come along with, and follow the historical garb of the 11th NY. We had a great time at 145th Manassas, especially coming across the entire field to save your green colours ;)

My personal goal is to have the white Fire Dept. flag of Ellsworth's Zouaves made for the event.

Regards,
Shaun

[KeystoneGuard]

To go along with everything already mentioned, don't forget the officer types. Let's see some regulation uniforms more so than fatigue. All I need is a new frock and I'm set.

[reddiamond]

Welcome home Shaun!

You've got a year and a half, old pard. Get recruiting! Last time was AWESOME!

Here in the east we have the potential for nine Federal battalions who typically come out to the larger events. The difficulty is that these are more or less generic Federal organizations. One of the hurdles is getting guys to think out of the box. That might mean forming cooperative groups according to impression. This was done in fine spirits during the 145th Manassas by groups such as the "Regulars."
It takes a great deal of trust for guys to assemble together outside their normal command structures and put their political assertions aside. Politics should always come second to history.

I do realize that many folks will never change. I expect to see some of the same old stuff. But I am hopeful, maybe naive.

I've got a lot of sewing to do before then......

Scot Buffington
3rd USV

[Regular3]

I want to see the "Regulars" with their polished brassCount on it. First Bull Run is our time to really "shine" (no pun intended).


This was done in fine spirits during the 145th Manassas by groups such as the "Regulars." It takes a great deal of trust for guys to assemble together outside their normal command structures and put their political assertions aside. Politics should always come second to history.

We've done it twice now for the 140th & 145th and I'll risk saying that we got a little better the second try and I expect we'll be even better next time.

[Micah Trent]

Lets be logical here, the mainstream, megafests won't have any enforced guidelines, so I don't see how you are going to get much improvement there. Actually, I see some a lot of regression and very poor impressions flocking to these mega-events. Why? Because you will have guys who have never attended an event wanting to drop in to the 150th cycle with no training, no guidance, poor impressions and no historical knowledge. You will also likely get some veteran reenactors come back out, but with that their old and unimproved impressions from years past.

Jim makes a good point. Numbers will be the primary focus while enforced guidelines and standards will be placed on the back burner. Yes, it is neat to see the numbers sometimes, and heck, I will admit it, sometimes I like to see the large numbers too.
You will have your share of those who are out there trying to do things right to their best of means and then you are going to have that other groups where they won't dare change their ways, because they are set in their poor impressions and their desire to up their standards is not there, cause they don't feel they have to and can't no one make them.


The other hobby will primarily focus on living history programs at battlefield sites across the country. These will likley have some minimum standards and documented scenarios/demonstrations/camps for the public. Focus will be on a quality vs quantity. Educating the public based on history and not Cirque de Solei.

I look forward to seeing these "history heavy" events come about. Unlike above, these type of events have never focused on the numbers, but primarily on the kind of living historians they have coming out with usually a set number of participants. This way allowing better control and not so lopsided figures. Yes, some of these are by invite only, but the reason of why they do so is a no brainer. Example is that of which a few of the WIG members did at Antietam a few weeks back. I have heard nothng but great reviews on it.

On another note. With the 150's coming around and everyone trying to get everyone on the same page...the practice of the 2 C's will have to come into play and be vital in every decision made: Communication and Cooperation.
There is a wide selection of divisions and battalions, etc. Each with their own way of doing things. Each with an impression that has labled them either good or bad. Each with their own egos. It will be interesting seeing how these will be overlooked and trying to see groups put past experiences behind, to join up with other groups to make a memorable 150 anniversary.

I have a feeling it will get ugly for some before it get's pretty. And yes, ugly can get uglier.

Off my soapbox now.

[Mojo1842]

We've done it twice now for the 140th & 145th and I'll risk saying that we got a little better the second try and I expect we'll be even better next time.

I didn't get to participate in either of the above as I wasn't involved in the hobby then but I've heard stories from some of our members that were there...I'm hoping to get to be a part of it this time around.:rolleyes:

[billwatson2]

I'll fall in wichyouguys, Scot, tell us what impression you're doing.

I just hit 60. I shaved off my white beard and dyed my hair black for a Halloween prank. People said I could pass for 59. At 10 feet. No problem, so I'm all set with a younger look whenever it's needed. Just need somebody to tell my knees.

:D

Really, I think out in history heavy land a lot of us would rally to a special impression banner on an ad hoc basis, and would travel quite a distance to do so. Personally I'd like to get it done before I need a walker to get across the field, it would make "charge bayonet" darned awkward and someone would be sure to complain I was messing up the drill.... If you've got a plan, go with it.

[RJSamp]

So,
the Wisconsin guys in grey shell jackets

C'mon guys!!!!

Scot Buffington
farby dude

The Wisconsin State Militia uniform would be prohibitively expensive to portray....even without the mule kicking BELGIAN muskets.....

[jthlmnn]

The Wisconsin State Militia uniform would be prohibitively expensive to portray....even without the mule kicking BELGIAN muskets.....

But the hats would be a hoot! I wish I had the money to put together that impression. Not so sure I'd like being fired at by both sides, though. (D**n New York Yankees!) :grin:

[reddiamond]

There were battalions of troops in 1986 who were wearing what many would consider today to be cost-prohibitive. I saw a whole lot of westerners wearing grey uniforms.
In 1986 nobody reproduced the M1861 Springfield. We had the Euroarms Enfield, the Navy Arms 1863 Springfield, and choice original weapons.
Jeancloth was a phenomenon, and one needed to know a secret handshake to get the better gear.
But in 1986 the will was there to portray the Battle of First Manassas as correctly as one could get. The Classic Images video was one of the best reenactment documentaries I've ever seen. It amazes me how much more the hobby was willing to get things as right as they could. Authenticity is a process, not an end result. But the will has to be there to TRY.

Scot Buffington

[reddiamond]

Bill,
Easy impression.
69th NY.
Sky blue trousers.
Standard accoutrements. If you absolutely want/have to have SNY plates go for it.
Grey or red wool shirt. Domet Issue shirts are OK.
Kepi or forage cap with havelock. Straw hats are also documented.
If you have an 1842 model, or an 1822 conversion, that is great. If not, don't go out and buy another weapon just for this event.

I believe that we will be doing Scott's/Gilham's manual. The percussion variation of the musket drill for heavy infantry.

No packs.... No coats.... Great in Manassas in July!

Most guys spent on average $10 for this impression a few years ago.

We will be camping heavy for this one. A-tents, lots of canvas.
1861 stuff.

Scot Buffington

[OVI]

Scott...what do you estimate the size of the hobby was back in the 1980s period you are describing? It seems to me that by the 90s, the God of Numbers had taken over and everything was about getting more folks in the field. Quantity won out over quality.
Now that we have been in the downward slide since 1999, do you see the folks who are left as being more committed to make a better effort to get it right?

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[reddiamond]

I believe that the 125th Manassas had 6,000 reenactors. Total about 5,500 men and about 500 civilians.

I think that it was the largest gathering up to that time. Gettysburg had double that number two years after. The 135th doubled the hobby in size.

Now, we are back to the numbers of troops we had in the early '80s. However, 1/3 of the reenactors who come to events are civilians- not troops.

A VERY liberal estimate of Federal Infantry here in the east is about 2,500 soldiers.On average, half that. Add 100 cavalry, 500 artillerymen, and the Federals can still muster less than 3,000.

The largest obstacle with organizing specialty impressions is the individual umbrella organizations. Back in 1986 there was only the National Regiment. Units who wished to raise battalions for certain impressions did so without regard to who belonged to who. Few could be accused of headhunting. Few battalions today would are ask their members to do anything in regard to their personal impressions. They would only be inviting chaos. "What? Take off my bucktail!?!" "I'm not buying a havelock!" "Heck, why should I have to take off my corps badge? The public don't know the difference anyway!" "WE are THE 255th PA, and we aren't going to take off our zouave uniforms for anyone!" "Why should I buy a shirt that I'll only use once?"

I think that more guys are prone to sticking with their home battalions than going out on a limb and trying to raise/participate in new ones- even if just for one weekend. That takes effort. Men are looking for leadership that will often not be there. Some will dare to ask, "who are we going to be for the weekend," and be disappointed with the answer.

Fellows, we have a year and a half. There are two Christmases between now and event time. Ask for a battle shirt or a new pair of pants. The event WILL happen. It is a personal choice whether to try or not. Take ownership of the event. This goes beyond spending money. Read a good book about Manassas. Be prepared to talk with the public about the battle. Ask, "what is my role in this battle?" Most importantly, educate yourself about what the battle should look like, then do your own personal best to replicate this.

I'm rambling at this point...

Scot Buffington

[Jim of the SRR]

Fellows, we have a year and a half. There are two Christmases between now and event time. Ask for a battle shirt or a new pair of pants. The event WILL happen. It is a personal choice whether to try or not. Take ownership of the event. This goes beyond spending money. Read a good book about Manassas. Be prepared to talk with the public about the battle. Ask, "what is my role in this battle?" Most importantly, educate yourself about what the battle should look like, then do your own personal best to replicate this.

I'm rambling at this point...

Scot Buffington

Scott,

It isn't ever going to happen! Without any enforced minimum standards, we know it will be 'anything goes'.

Jim Butler

[Mint Julep]

I believe that the 125th Manassas had 6,000 reenactors. Total about 5,500 men and about 500 civilians.

I think that it was the largest gathering up to that time. Gettysburg had double that number two years after. The 135th doubled the hobby in size.



I recall the numbers at 125th Gettysburg as being closer to the 20-25,000 range. The First Confederate Brigade alone fielded a 3 battalion brigade of about 1,500 men. As I recall, the "official" count for 135th G-burg was "15,000" because that is what the land use permit allowed, but the actual number was again something over 20,000.

I saw the 135ths as being smaller than the 125ths.

[Regular3]

The largest obstacle with organizing specialty impressions is the individual umbrella organizations. Back in 1986 there was only the National Regiment. Units who wished to raise battalions for certain impressions did so without regard to who belonged to who.I'll give you an example. In 1986 the 20th Century Army had me in South Carolina where I was temporarily detached from the Regulars and serving with the 21st Ohio. The 21st had a couple of guys who knew some guys, and so we fell in with the 79th New York for the weekend.

When you give up your home impression for a weekend to portray a unit that was at the battle, you're not dissolving your organization. I don't know why reenactors would not be more interested in contributing to a quality representation of the battle than in maintaining their unit "integrity."

[flattop32355]

When you give up your home impression for a weekend to portray a unit that was at the battle, you're not dissolving your organization. I don't know why reenactors would not be more interested in contributing to a quality representation of the battle than in maintaining their unit "integrity."

Some folks forget that we're not REALLY that regiment anyway. We're just reenactors.

I've got strong loyalty to my local reenacting organization, and we enjoy portraying "us" whenever possible. But when the event calls for something other than the 30th OVI, we do what we need to do. It ain't that big a deal.

[sigman]

I recall the numbers at 125th Gettysburg as being closer to the 20-25,000 range. The First Confederate Brigade alone fielded a 3 battalion brigade of about 1,500 men. As I recall, the "official" count for 135th G-burg was "15,000" because that is what the land use permit allowed, but the actual number was again something over 20,000.

I saw the 135ths as being smaller than the 125ths.

Seems to me that the bigger events organizers "McClellanize" their numbers (more than there actually are). There were only a few Federal infantry battalions at 125th G-burg as there were only a few organized battalions at that juncture of time.

We were part of the NR. Our company (12th NJ & 53rd PA). I was 1st sgt. and had about 30-35 men on the morning report, that seemed about the average sized company, multiply by 10, that is probably 350 troops or so for our battalion. We all fit in the angle on Sunday.

135th Gettysburg Federal line seemed way longer in length than the one established for Pickett's Charge at 125th. Mifflin Guard had 400+ troops on the field. One of our biggest turnouts of all time.

Andy Siganuk, 12th NJ, Co. K

[reddiamond]

I was on the Federal staff for the 125th Gettysburg.

As I recall, there weren't that many Federal battalions in the field.
There was: The National Regiment, The Unattached Others, The Ohio Brigade, The Iron Brigade, and the Berdan's Sharpshooters. It was the biggest event held up to that time. I recall that every Federal wore a 2nd Corps badge for Pickett's Charge. The event issued them to us.
I made my way to the the "Angle" for the 125th and my own battalion portrayed the 71st PA for the 135th.

I remember that vehicles weren't allowed in the camps and we had to hump our gear 1/2 mile back. No big deal. Most slept in dog tents anyway. Not much to hump. There were 91 men in my home unit's company. It was commanded by a second Lt. because the U.O didn't have enough officers. There were 1,000 men in the "Unattached Others" that weekend.

For those who do not know, the "U.O." became today's USV. The U.O. begat Vincent's Brigade, Vincent's begat the FVB and Birney's. It sounds like the Old Testament.

I bought a brand new, fully dressed Hardee hat for $20 at the suters. A bugle and the cord cost more than that today.

I do recall that the 135ths seemed larger.

SO many good memories.

Scot Buffington

[Anders]

Rules can be enforced, but plan on only about 3000 participants max- these are the only folks that will come to such an event when they realize rules are enforced.

I am ok with that, BTW

Pards,

[reddiamond]

I just thought that I'd say that.
He already knows it. :)

I certainly hope that the media helps us out for the 150ths. A new movie would be a Godsend.

Scot B.

[MLovejoy]

It has to be a good movie, not any old Civil War themed movie like G&G. Can anyone get Steven Spielberg & Tom Hanks to do something?

[flattop32355]

It has to be a good movie, not any old Civil War themed movie like G&G. Can anyone get Steven Spielberg & Tom Hanks to do something?

They are: Liam Neeson is supposed to play the lead in a movie about Lincoln.

What we really need one entitled "Shiloh".

[Rob Weaver]

The Wisconsin State Militia uniform would be prohibitively expensive to portray....even without the mule kicking BELGIAN muskets.....

Does anyone print the pattern for the Wisconsin militia uniform? Our boys wore them, too. I always wanted one.
I was Iron Brigade at Gettysburg 125th. It was an eye-popping experience. We were called "authentics" back then. The term "harcore" had just been birthed. Mostly at the time it meant actually trying to live in and with your gear rather than keeping it for "display." Still a good philosophy, even with standard mainstream gear.

[Regular3]

There were 1,000 men in the "Unattached Others" that weekend.

Ah yes, the Unwanted, Unwashed Others. I was one of them. My everlasting memory of that weekend was a certain UO commander riding Sheridan-like down our front, standing up in the stirrups, shaking his fist and screaming at us to "Shut the f*** up!" because we dared to cheer when we got the word to move forward during the Wheatfield scenario after standing there watching everyone else for more than half an hour.


I bought a brand new, fully dressed Hardee hat for $20 at the sutlers. A bugle and the cord cost more than that today.

SO many good memories.

Scot BuffingtonIndeed. I bought a Hardee at Olustee in 1986 for a similar price, to wear at the 125th of Shiloh. I still have it - it's the only one I've ever owned. When I retire I think I'll contact Dirty Billy if he's still around, and ask him if he wants it as a piece for his museum. :mrgreen:

[hconverse]

Does anyone print the pattern for the Wisconsin militia uniform? Our boys wore them, too. I always wanted one.


Hi Rob,

I don't believe that anyone has produced a pattern for any form of the Wis militia uniform.

A couple of years ago the Hard Head Mess did a project to come up with an impression for the Park City Greys which was a militia unit from Kenosha. I know that we had hats produced in the militia style(Not resembling the double billed hat of the 2nd WI) and had settled on a pattern for the militia frock coat with black trim. Check of the Hard Head mess site for a picture of the Park City Greys on the second page of the pictures section.
I will be talking to several other fellow Hardheads tomorrow at the Kenosha Civil War museum and I can post who we were looking at producing the coats.

Scott Sonntag
Hard Head Mess

[Colonel Dave]

Regular 3-That man soon left the hobby in a large part due to that kind of conduct. Inasmuch as he was in my Brigade, please accept my personal apology and I hope that negative memory can be replaced with thoughts of the more pleasant moments of the weekend. Remember as we moved up the lane on the second day with the rebs contesting ever foot of the way? You guys proved your mettle on that day for sure.