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Frenchie
08-30-2006, 12:31 PM
http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1307

With all due respect, the "C & D Jarnagin Sack Coat" thread should not have been shut down. The OTB forum has picked up the ball and is producing a tremendous amount of very cogent, useful and interesting dialogue.

theknapsack
08-30-2006, 03:56 PM
Indeed. It would be good if the thread was reopened. There are things that I did not know about (over at the OTB forum) and this is a good discussion. Not everyone has access to the OTB.

ScottCross
08-30-2006, 04:08 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the OTB forum and how do I get there?:confused:

theknapsack
08-30-2006, 04:20 PM
http://p221.ezboard.com/bofftopicboys
Apply for a membership. They'll let you in. Thought Sekela had invited an invitation to you.

Frenchie
08-30-2006, 06:56 PM
If any CW reenacting discussion forum is likely to be sued for defamation the Off Topic Boys would be at the top of the list, yet that forum seems to fear no such thing. Perhaps the danger is overrated here. Or perhaps not, because as I understand it this forum owns it own servers and stands to lose them in the (IMO) unlikely event someone won such a suit. As far as I'm aware the OTB doesn't stand to lose much besides the chance to stand on a balcony and dump the contents of chamber pots on people's heads.

31stWisconsin
08-30-2006, 07:40 PM
I belong to another forum, Somethingawful.com, and we say what we want. When we have bad experiences with vendors we tell each other. (I frequent the gun forum) The owner of SA frequently gets legal threats over people trying to sue him, for SA is a satirical website that makes fun of people. When he gets such threats of lawsuits he posts it on the front page and I laugh because free speech is free speech, and it's the internet.

Although I like this forum and appauld the mods for their work I think lawsuits are a paper tiger.

Andrew Jarvi
08-31-2006, 05:01 AM
It is so sad how litigation happy this world has become. I remember when men were men and could take it if someone took a shot at them. Those that get inflamed are usually those that are in the wrong and don't like it that they have been exposed. People need to learn to suck it up and take some criticism to heart. Instead of calling a lawyer they need ought to look in the mirror and see if they are needing to change the way they do business or act around others. And this is coming from a corporate paralegal and good lawyers would agree with this!

tompritchett
08-31-2006, 07:22 AM
I think lawsuits are a paper tiger

While I am only a moderator and not an "owner" of this forum, I do understand the owners' fears. While I extremely doubt that anyone could ever win a slander/libel lawsuit against this forum, the defense costs in such a lawsuit could easily exhaust or severely strain the finances of those that have invested considerable finances into the purchase of equipment (e.g., servers) and software. Other forums that do not have such investments can afford to laugh because they essentially have nothing at risk. However, when you do have investments at risk, you have no choice but defend yourself when sued and, unfortunately, that takes money, which regretably does not grow on trees. Remember, the suit does not necessarily have to be successful to win; all that it has to do is force the owners to incur sufficient legal expenses that they must sell their equipment in order to pay their legal bills.

Paper tiger - maybe, but it is not your money and investment at stake.

BobWerner
08-31-2006, 12:37 PM
If any CW reenacting discussion forum is likely to be sued for defamation the Off Topic Boys would be at the top of the list, yet that forum seems to fear no such thing. Perhaps the danger is overrated here. Or perhaps not, because as I understand it this forum owns it own servers and stands to lose them in the (IMO) unlikely event someone won such a suit. As far as I'm aware the OTB doesn't stand to lose much besides the chance to stand on a balcony and dump the contents of chamber pots on people's heads.

Guy, while I would also like to see a good bit more latitude with posts of this particular nature as I feel it would be extremely helpful to those who are newer to all this, I also understand Bob's position. A good number of years ago, back on the old-old forum a well known member of the Civil War reenacting community pretty much had an on-line melt-down and started hurling threats about. It was extremely unpleasant, in the least. Right or wrong, whatever the outcome, litigation can quickly spell doom for a forum of this type. We always have to remember that it's not really a public forum; we're Bob's guests here.

Respectfully,

MStuart
08-31-2006, 02:55 PM
we're Bob's guests here.

That we are. And we should respect his wishes on the conduct of this forum.

Mark

Frenchie
08-31-2006, 05:21 PM
I've advanced the notion that we are guests in Bob's house myself. My intention is not to foment discontent, it is to point out that while owning the servers is an advantage in that the forum isn't as likely to see the kind of problems it has in the past (and that the Authentic Campaigner forum is seeing right now), the disadvantage seems to be that it forces Bob and the moderators to restrict speech that other boards need not worry about.

On the other hand, this board has far more liberal (so to speak) attitudes about research, of which, by the way, there isn't nearly enough. And yes, I know the canonical answer to that: "Then get off your butt and post some!", to which I retort, "Be careful what you ask for." :p

bill watson
08-31-2006, 06:11 PM
You can't be successfully sued for libel just for being mean, sarcastic or a lot of other things.

You can be sued successfully for libel if you say something that isn't true, the person you're lying about can prove it, and the person can show damages.

A forum website isn't concerned about getting sued because the law so far says the forum is like a telephone or something, it's just a device that people use. The people who use it are the ones who can get sued, because they are still responsible, personally, for the words that come out of their mouth and for the consequences of those words.

But a forum can conceivably get hung up, need a lawyer, and face a bunch of aggravation if called upon to supply material to a court suit establishing that the forum was indeed the means by which the libel was "published", or, more simply, distributed to others. How many people heard the lie is part of the decisionmaking of a libel award. And a forum could get caught up in the process of tracking down and identifying people who are lying on the forum and hiding under fake names. Lawsuits are like tar, doesn't take much to create a lot of sticky dirt.

Don't have a dog in the fight. Just know about how this stuff plays out at the practical level.

An area of some possible relevance to this particular discussion is not libel, but interference with trade. Don't know much about, but it's another very real animal that's out there that folks are increasingly using to litigate.

tompritchett
08-31-2006, 07:34 PM
"Be careful what you ask for."

Sounds like a challenge to me. I will bite and ask for some. :)

tompritchett
08-31-2006, 07:39 PM
But a forum can conceivably get hung up, need a lawyer, and face a bunch of aggravation if called upon to supply material to a court suit establishing that the forum was indeed the means by which the libel was "published", or, more simply, distributed to others. How many people heard the lie is part of the decisionmaking of a libel award. And a forum could get caught up in the process of tracking down and identifying people who are lying on the forum and hiding under fake names. Lawsuits are like tar, doesn't take much to create a lot of sticky dirt.

And most importantly, all that you have described cost money. Unless someone wants to set up a CW Reenactor's forum defense fund, that money has to come from Bob's and/or Provost's pocket not ours. Besides, you can never tell how a jury might decide. There have been plenty of jury decisions that have made no logical (or legal) sense and reversing such verdicts via the appeal process costs even more money.

RebelCapt
08-31-2006, 08:18 PM
As a group commander, litigation is always a subject I do not take lightly. You can ask any of my men that my home and savings will not be placed in jeopardy blindly on the field or anywhere else. The owners in this forum have the right to protect it as they see fit jusy as any of us will protect our own interests.
A man in our unit has a similar difficulty with a high quality sutler. While he did eventualy recieve has garment months late. We choose to effect this business' reputation by excluding him from our approved list and by warning friends as we see them. This is fair since the ripples of his poor business practice reach many while he still has the opportunity to redeem himself with others.
The owners of this forum are correct that a lawsuit can be a messy business even for the innocent.

Frenchie
08-31-2006, 11:29 PM
I said to be careful what you asked for :D

The thread on the Off Topic Boys forum (OTB from now on) is in The Eric Tipton Memorial Event Evaluation Sanctuary conference and is titled "Sack Coat Thread on CW Reenactors". Three pages now. It is fascinating, and I am using that word in its fullest sense.

The other interesting thread in that conference is "AAR - ***** Purchase" (the asterisks are to keep from naming Someone Who Must Not Be Named). This thread is 63 pages now - put on your footie jammies and a fresh pot of coffee before diving in, and call in sick in the morning.

Oh, yes, Dear Reader, in case the OTB's reputation has not preceded it in your case, go in with a very open mind, a thick skin and a determination to ignore that which is not useful. Concentrate on the tiny flecks of gold in the manure.

tompritchett
09-01-2006, 07:25 AM
Concentrate on the tiny flecks of gold in the manure.]

Such an apt description. Periodically, I do check it out but, as the semesters progress, I find that I have less and less time to wade through it all to find those flecks of gold.

jurgitemvaletem
09-01-2006, 04:24 PM
okay,

now that I have applied for membership and recieved notification of acceptence on the OTB, where do I go now? Could someone point me in the correct direction?

Dank,
Jurgitem Valetem

Frenchie
09-01-2006, 09:46 PM
Go to the first forum and talk about Oklahoma (OTB is called "Oklahoma Tourism Bureau" on ezBoard's log in screen). You'll only be able to post that one time and then you'll be locked out. Log on the next day and you should be okay.

Why's it so hard to start reading and posting, and why's it called "Oklahoma Tourism Bureau"? Ask Charles Heath aka Chawls Heef (I call him le Grand Charles, after Charles de Gaulle). He might answer, or not. It's his little p***ing ground, his and some other bozo's whose name I don't recall right now. The different forums have different setups and are often in another language. It's hard to see the little page numbers and navigation links against the dark backgrounds. It's all very He-Man Woman-Hater's Club in the tree-house stuff. They think it's just so kewl.

JBW
09-04-2006, 03:12 PM
Go to the first forum and talk about Oklahoma (OTB is called "Oklahoma Tourism Bureau" on ezBoard's log in screen). You'll only be able to post that one time and then you'll be locked out. Log on the next day and you should be okay.

You've just told me more useful info than a week of aprox. 20 seconds each day of "approved" viewing time was able to turn up. :confused:
Seems "they" ARE afraid of who might see and sue after all. :rolleyes:

bill watson
09-04-2006, 05:24 PM
You've just told me more useful info than a week of aprox. 20 seconds each day of "approved" viewing time was able to turn up. :confused:
Seems "they" ARE afraid of who might see and sue after all. :rolleyes:

No, I think there is just a certain amount of joy taken on their part by making you feel stupid. Remember 7th grade? Are you by any chance familiar with the "no soap radio" joke? The joke isn't a joke, it's told to a newcomer. When the nonsensical punchline is uttered,"no soap radio," all the kids already in on the joke laugh hilariously. If the newcomer laughs even though he doesn't get the joke, (and he can't, it isn't a joke) the insiders are vindicated that here's a schmoe who wants so desperately to belong that he'll make a fool of himself and laugh at something he doesn't understand. Kind of the same thing.

Since I stopped going to internet Civil War chatrooms and otherwise wasting time online I've written three books. :-)

TeamsterPhil
09-04-2006, 05:36 PM
You've just told me more useful info than a week of aprox. 20 seconds each day of "approved" viewing time was able to turn up. :confused:
Seems "they" ARE afraid of who might see and sue after all. :rolleyes:

Trying posting a couple or three times. Then you should be able to waste ENDLESS hours perusing many meaningless threads about everything and nothing.

Phil Campbell

JBW
09-04-2006, 06:54 PM
No, I think there is just a certain amount of joy taken on their part by making you feel stupid.......

Thats what I was starting to suspect. I can make myself appear stupid without help from experts. :mrgreen:
I was just going to find out what all the hype was about.

JBW
09-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Trying posting a couple or three times. Then you should be able to waste ENDLESS hours perusing many meaningless threads about everything and nothing.

Phil Campbell

Thanks. Actually I was going there to research the new weapon technology they have developed. They seem to have harmed some visitors by flinging electrons at them over the Internet. I'm sure the Pentagon will be by soon. :grin:

TeamsterPhil
09-04-2006, 07:13 PM
There are a few misconceptions about the OTB that I'd like to clear up.

Chawls Heef has no power on the OTB other than that of a prolific poster.

The OTB is NOT a CW reenacting message board. Granted, most of the members are CW reenactors, but only about a quarter of the posts ni the main forum have anything to do with the hobby. Today's topics include: Steve Irwin's death, the education system, the Rev War (it's the anniversary of the fight at Cooch's Bridge), deer hunting, 9/11, nutria, CSNY shows and Southern food.

EVERYONE is approved for membership. I have allowed at least 30 or 40 new members in just this past week. Most have yet to post.

We don't limit your viewing privileges because we are mean. We do it to keep the amount of lurkers down. Make 3 or 4 posts and you'll be able to lurk all you want.

While the OTB is populated by mostly men, there are women on the board (we have one female Moderator, also). It is not a He-Man-Woman-Haters Club. The women on the OTB wouldn't let that happen.

Come on over. Have fun. Don't take anything you read over there too seriously.

Phil Campbell
http://p221.ezboard.com/bofftopicboys

Spinster
09-04-2006, 07:27 PM
He man woman haters club? I don't think so. Really more of a place where free-thinkers acknowledge that there are gender roles in society, then and now.

Hee hee. And I get to say that, I burned my bra with the best of them in the 60's, and was one of two women in my graduating class when I did my first master's degree. Even I've learned something in the last 30 years.

There is even a section just for us gals where then men can't come in.

Except Phil is an honorary member of it. Which is how he got so much fabulous help in outfitting his new lady friend. And, when the time comes, she'll be playing on the homefront with me, not cluttering up a military street somewhere, or trying to fit into a sack coat, however uber-correct or farb it may be.

Mint Julep
09-04-2006, 10:48 PM
The OTB is there to have fun and communicate with "like-minded" people. Professing farby or mainstream attitudes will bring down a sh**storm on your head. Beware. The word filters change randomly to filter out proper names and certain words at the whim of the moderators. Once you post, you cannot edit your post, thus you are stuck with your misspellings, stupid comments, incoherent thoughts and poison posts. Don't say anything you don't want to see again someplace else. Expect to see things said elsewhere to appear there. There is no honor among thieves.

Also, your personal life and divergent interests are of interest to us. Proud papas/daddies/pater familias types/fathers will boast of children's achievements. Students will complain about school and then proudly announce grades. Current events discussions will compel you to read the news a little more closely. Recipes are swapped. Entire regions of the nation are denigrated and reviled and then supported by upstarts.

And, as I recently complained, you will post a question one day and then not be able to find it the next because you forgot what thread you posted it on. It happens to me quite often.

me, of the OTB

Spinster
09-05-2006, 12:16 AM
That was because I bribed a moderator to institute the random thread shuffler so that you would have to come to me directly for the answer to your question.

I answered you directly, with footnotes and illustrations, and you are now officially beholden.

(Where is the tongue in cheek icon on this board?)

Kind Regards,

Frenchie
09-05-2006, 03:25 PM
I said "He-Man Woman-Haters Club" not to indicate sexism but to indicate exclusiveness, which Mr. Campbell has now denied. My misunderstanding and my mistake.

Some general observations:

"Chawls Heef has no power on the OTB other than that of a prolific poster."

Le Grand Charles is, as far as I can tell, the most prolific poster by far. I think it can be argued that that distinction in itself can imply power.

There is indeed almost nothing that is not allowed on the OTB forum except for what Mr. Campbell and all call "farby" and "mainstream", of course. I include blatant hypocrisy and unapologetic failure to maintain logical consistency in what is allowed.

OTB is a free-for-all barroom brawl where going for blood is not punished or even discouraged. Speaking your mind is fine unless, of course, the denizens there don't happen to like you. Agree with them, march along in lock-step, and you'll probably be okay. Point out the warts and you'll become just another target. And no, I'm not talking about myself; my ego is a small, hard target. Others have not fared as well. The Golden Rule doesn't hold much sway there.

Finally, I note that some people don't like the taste of their own medicine. Nonetheless, I remain amused.

GrumpyDave
09-06-2006, 06:20 AM
You forgot the movie and product reviews, complaints about the weather and modern political arguments. There's also the most comprehensive CW events list complied there I've ever seen.

DaveGink
09-06-2006, 08:19 AM
http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1307

With all due respect, the "C & D Jarnagin Sack Coat" thread should not have been shut down. The OTB forum has picked up the ball and is producing a tremendous amount of very cogent, useful and interesting dialogue.

Yes, I was quite surprised to find that thread locked. I was planning on posting a follow-up when I received the Daley sack.

I must say it was a very informative thread and I had learned a lot.

If it was locked for fear of a lawsuit, that would surprise me. I do not recall anything said that was out-of-line, but perhaps I missed it. After all, part of being a consumer and part of being a manufacturer is understanding that product reviews, opinions, criticism and praise are all part of doing business. In fact it's heathy and good for both buyers and sellers. Libel laws are meant to protect from knowigly false and malicious statements being told about a person meant to damage his or her reputation - not stopping honest critism, opinion, or reviews of a product or business practice (again, that's part of doing business).

That all said, the owners of the site may of course do whatever they wish.

Bill_Cross
09-06-2006, 09:43 AM
You can't be successfully sued for libel just for being mean, sarcastic or a lot of other things.
We're missing the forest here, boys, by focusing on the trees.

Lawsuits are filed all the time that never see court and may even be frivolous. But the threat of legal action is often enough to make grown men in suits sweat and do drastic things, all in the name of protecting their bottom-- line.

If the owners of this or any forum perceived that a lawsuit was likely to progress beyond the threat stage, they might simply pull the plug just to save themselves the cost of defending against it.

And no amount of wailing or gnashing of teeth is likely to do any good. Has anyone noticed Google China (an American company owned by Google) backing down from its decision to self-censor content the Chinese government dislikes, often before the government objected? Pundits howled about the death of freedom on the Internet, when frankly, there are commercial entities right now that are working to set up a two-tiered Internet, whereby you and I would not get access to much content without paying "access" fees.

Search engines already skew to commercial sites that have paid to be on top.

It's enough to make a grown man cry.

MStuart
09-06-2006, 10:02 AM
For corn's sake people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take the liberty of saying it once again...we are guests at Mr. Szabo's table.....he doesn't want that type of thread on his forum.....it was removed......

There is a place where one can go to get the information discussed and it has been publicised. Don't like the rules here? There are other places.

I've had more success in making our new puppy understand things. Sheesh

Mark

4 pages, and 33 posts later, what's needed here is a good, rolled up newspaper

DaveGink
09-06-2006, 10:57 AM
For corn's sake people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take the liberty of saying it once again...we are guests at Mr. Szabo's table.....he doesn't want that type of thread on his forum.....it was removed......

There is a place where one can go to get the information discussed and it has been publicised. Don't like the rules here? There are other places.

I've had more success in making our new puppy understand things. Sheesh

Mark

4 pages, and 33 posts later, what's needed here is a good, rolled up newspaper

So it can't be discussed? There can not be disagreements, or suggestions, or questions? Even at the hosts table? I do not see anyone being insulting or hostile here. Looks to be a friendly, courteous conversation to me. Maybe I'm just not reading it the same way you are?

That aside, was there a threat of lawsuit somewhere in that thread? I must have missed it.

--

Edit: MStuart, The thread was not removed, just locked. I went back and did a quick once over and saw no threats of lawsuit or even suggestions of one. Provost just stated the thread had "lived out it's useful life and then some". http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1307&page=4 Perhaps you were thinking of a different thread?

Bill_Cross
09-06-2006, 11:24 AM
Maybe this is a chance for the OTB to score some points? Even the blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.... ;-)

Let them have the thread, we've got Smotherman over here expounding, what more do we need?

MStuart
09-06-2006, 11:35 AM
I rest my case

Mark

DaveGink
09-06-2006, 11:42 AM
I rest my case

Mark

Please expound. I'm not sure what case you are resting and am interested in knowing. Especially if it had anything to do with my post.
Thanks.

MStuart
09-06-2006, 12:32 PM
Dave: Nothing's directed at you or your posts. I've found it amusing, disheartening, and frustrating that we, as forum members, just can't let it go that the thread was locked, deleted, or whatever it was. The provost has given his reasoning/s, yet "we" just can't let it go at that.

The answer is just to ignore the whole thread since it aggravates me. And so I shall. Maybe we can discuss the war on some thread.

Mark

tompritchett
09-06-2006, 04:32 PM
Sent you a PM

ScottCross
09-06-2006, 11:12 PM
As had been stated, lets forget the reason why the thread was stopped. It has been continued over at the OTB discussion forum. Those who really want to know can log in there and continue. Nuff said.:rolleyes:

Frenchie
09-07-2006, 12:17 PM
"Nuff said." The final, authoritative word on the subject. Continuing the discussion exposes one to censure and ridicule for being too dull-witted or boorish to recognize its closure.

But then, I don't know everything and may well be mistaken. That's why I never say "Nuff said."

Mint Julep
09-07-2006, 05:20 PM
Well, so far, I only know of one guy that has threatened to sue CW forums (CWR, AC and OTB) over the years and he has yet to do so. He's been invited to act by at least two forum owners publicly and has simply stopped posting. I guess he thinks his profession makes people quake in their shoes when he suggests a lawsuit, but he knows he can't win and he would have to travel to file papers and appear in court. Stupid lawyers are what is ruining this hobby and its forums.

MJ

bill watson
09-07-2006, 07:00 PM
The latest and greatest. Remember, just because the website owner can't be sued doesn't mean they can't get dragged into a process of discovery so that the individual involved in an alleged libel/defamation suit CAN be identified and pinned to the wall. Which is yet another argument in favor of requiring identities to be known. That takes the website owner right out of the picture.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/15446330.htm

TeamsterPhil
09-07-2006, 09:18 PM
Well, so far, I only know of one guy that has threatened to sue CW forums (CWR, AC and OTB) over the years and he has yet to do so.
MJ

My esteemed long lost twin:

You seem to have forgotten the guy was claiming we were "persecuting" him.

Phil C.
Where did Darry's other brother Darryl go?