Mock execution at an 8th grade school program [Archive] - Civil War Reenactors Discussion Forums

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 06:29 AM

HARPER'S WEEKLY - SEPTEMBER 26, 1863.
Issue 622

Mr. Waud writes: "The crime of desertion has been one of the greatest drawbacks to our army. If the men who have deserted their flag had but been present on more than one occasion defeat would have been victory, and victory the destruction of the enemy. It may be therefore fairly asserted that desertion is the greatest crime of the soldier, and no punishment too severe for the offense. But the dislike to kill in cold blood—a Northern characteristic—the undue exercise of executive clemency, and in fact the very magnitude and vast spread of the offense, has prevented the proper punishment being applied. That is past; now the very necessity of saving life will cause the severest penalties to be rigorously exacted. The picture represents the men who were sentenced to death in the Fifth Corps for desertion at the moment of their execution. Some of these had enlisted, pocketed the bounty, and deserted again and again. The sentence of death being so seldom enforced they considered it a safe game. They all suffered terribly mentally, and as they marched to their own funeral they staggered with mortal agony like a drunken man. Through the corps, ranged in hushed masses on the hill-side, the procession moved to a funeral march, the culprits walking each behind his own coffin. On reaching the grave they were, as usual, seated on their coffins; the priests made short prayers; their eyes were bandaged; and with a precision worthy of praise for its humanity, the orders were given and the volley fired which launched them into eternity. They died instantly, although one sat up nearly a minute after the firing; and there is no doubt that their death has had a very salutary influence on discipline."CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 06:34 AM

OR Series II Volume IV Page 546 of 951 - Prisoners of War

HEADQUARTERS NORTHEAST MISSOURI DIVISION,
Macon City, MO., September 23, 1862.

Major A. F. DENNY, Huntsville, Mo.

MAJOR: Captain Burkhardt has been directed to take back to Huntsville the following prisoners: Charles King, Charles Tillotson and D. S. Washburn. With regard to these men you will observe the order herewith inclosed which will be your warrant for the execution, and I hope that this example will have such a satisfactory effect that no further execution in your vicinity may be necessary. I wish the execution of these men to be done with due from and ceremony, and thinking you may not be a war of the proper from give the following description of how it is to be done:

At the hour fixed the execution your whole command will be paraded and marched to the execution ground together with the condemned and the firing party; the firing party will be selected by lot from your men, six men for each prisoner. The march to the execution ground is in the following order: First, a company of your command; second, the prisoners, with the firing party in the rear of them; third, the rest of your command. Having reached the ground the command will be formed on three sides of a square, facing inward. On the open side the prisoners and firing party will be disposed as in the diagram*. Before going to the ground the muskets of the firing party will be loaded-not in the presence of the men who are to use them-and of each six one of them will be loaded with a blank cartridge, the others with ball. This is done in order that no individual of firing party may know to a certainly that this piece contained a ball. The prisoners are then blindfolded and made to kneel before the firing parties, and the commanding officer gives the order. "Ready! aim! fire!" Six men must be detailed as a reserve whose duty it will be to finish the execution of any one of the prisoners who may not be killed by the first discharge.

Instructed your firing party that they are simply discharging their duty, and however disagreeable it may be it is a duty, and they will show mercy to the prisoners by aiming true at the heart that the first fire may kill them. I hope, major, that the this solemn execution of a sentence and vindication of violated law may be properly conducted, and that both yourself and your men will do their duty faithfully however unpleasant it may be.

After the execution the whole command is marched by the dead bodies and they are then taken up and decently interred.

I am, major, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

LEWIS MERRILL,

Brigadier-General, Commanding.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

7thNJcoA

08-20-2009, 06:48 AM

Honestly that video does nothing for that unit or reenacting! It took one man the Sgt on the left like a minute to load one blank round. It seems like a good idea to do the hokey execution but its all fun and games until someone loses and eye as my grandmother said all the time. I guess they couldn't find anything more to talk about and demonstrate. This action was in poor taste and shame on the school board for allowing such an action. Next they will be doing it with school children!

Micah Trent

08-20-2009, 07:14 AM

WTF???? These guys are not living historians. They are a side show circus that makes those of us who take living history serious less thought of.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 07:43 AM

DIARY OF A TAR HEEL CONFEDERATE SOLDIER:

Leon, Louis

May 11 1863 - We moved our camp to the north side of town. Then we were marched to an open field this afternoon, and drawn up in line to see two men shot for desertion. After they were shot, we marched by them and saw one was hit six times and the other four. Their coffins were by their sides, right close to their graves, so that they could see it all.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

flattop32355

08-20-2009, 08:06 AM

But the dislike to kill in cold blood—a Northern characteristic—

Ya gotta love it......! Propaganda at its best.

Scooby_308

08-20-2009, 08:09 AM

1st: Is the guy on the left ramming???
2nd: As a teacher I say…well, I can’t say here. All in good fun and all, that aside, discipline problems are bad enough as it is. When you shoot teachers in front of students what example are you setting?
3rd: Another reason I wish folks would not play to the crowd and actually teach (teachers and reenactors alike).

sbl

08-20-2009, 08:38 AM

Needs music.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYAsVvmU6gk

huntdaw

08-20-2009, 08:42 AM

Just pathetic.

GaWildcat

08-20-2009, 08:46 AM

two words... Dumb A##

Julius

08-20-2009, 09:01 AM

Nevermind.....

sbl

08-20-2009, 09:10 AM

I thought that Dumb @$$ could be one word.

"Executions" never go well from what I have seen. Neither do mock floggings.

Been there.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 09:16 AM

Michael Pierpoint

08-20-2009, 09:22 AM

I hope they have learned this was not in good taste. I can see this could be funny at the time,but how often did this really happen. There are more constructive things that could have been done.

Bill_Cross

08-20-2009, 09:27 AM

What do you guys think about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNH8hJOwLLI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efifthohiolightartillery%2E com%2FSCHOOLDAYFUN%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded#t=72

It's an artillery group that does a little bit of infantry that is staging a mock execution of teachers in front of an 8th grade class. This video appears on their web site so they obviously condone the behavior. It's in a section on their site for teachers and school programs to view to consider this group to come out and conduct a living history program at the school.

I know I don't post often, so excuse my number of posted comments. I don't spend a whole lot of time on a computer.
What Curt said....

A stunt like that isn't the message we should be sending our students.

hiplainsyank

08-20-2009, 09:52 AM

Brendan Brenner,

Let me respond to your cocky PM, boy....it is patently disingenuous to compare this act, irrespective of how poor in judgement or historically unrepresentative it is, to the unlawful and wanton, murderous acts on school campuses.

When you dry behind your ears a bit more or the beans drop you can call folks out in PM's until then your MTV view of serious matters should be left at the kids table.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Father to a boy who would be older than you.

Considering much older and more experienced reenactors are saying quite similar things, sir, just not openly stating WHY this is in bad taste, I find your calling out of one young person's opinion rather hypocritical. A numer of people did not directly state WHY this was in poor taste, but it is highly likely that those incidents informed the others opinions as to why this is poor taste.

And why should he be insulted for being young just for expressing his opinion? And how is it that somehow your opinion in this matter is worth more just because you are older?

I know the young Mister needs no defender, and I don't even know who he is. However, your post just rubbed me the wrong way.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 10:07 AM

Ma'am

Let me make perfectly clear, since your response indicates a lack of reading comprehension akin to that of our young agent provocateur.

I am not taking issue with the inappropriateness of executing teachers, mock or otherwise. My post:

as posted by FloridaConfederate: "it is patently disingenuous to compare this act, irrespective of how poor in judgment or historically unrepresentative it is, to the unlawful and wanton, murderous acts on school campuses." .

My issue is with comparing it to murderous criminal acts...that is childlike and displays a clear lack of understanding and gravity of the seriousness of those criminal acts.

Is it more clear now ?

Clear enough for you to sufficiently wind your neck in on matters not concerning you?

Respectfully,

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

OVI

08-20-2009, 10:28 AM

Chris....Im going to disagree with your point. On one level, lining up teachers and executing them in front of students does have a connection to the horrible crimes such as Columbine. While these so-called historians thought it was good fun to mock shoot the teachers, there is a pyschological reinforcement of the acceptance of shooting teachers for the amusement of the students.
This demonstration was the epitomy of poor judgement and lack of awareness. I would hope that any reenactors who engage in educational programs take their responsibilities far more seriously.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

hiplainsyank

08-20-2009, 10:30 AM

My dear sir, I was addressing your response to the young gentleman, not your assessment one way or the other to the thing in itself. I actually found your posts of historical executions interesting, if somewhat tangential to the discussion.

It is your response to the young sir that I found unnecessarily demeaning, even though he expressed a basic reaction similar to others who stated their viewpoints without mentioning the school shootings. He simply said the mock execution called to mind the heinous events. He did not say they duplicated it. Honestly, in the big picture, what is the problem? If that is what witnessing the video made him feel somehwere in the pit of his stomache, who are you to belittle him for that? Most people just stated their gut reactions to it (often in less eloquent language, to boot) and did not give their reasoning, as did this young person, yet you singled out him, just because he gave voice to one of the underlying reasons why this made him uncomfortable.

Further, you saw fit to insult him personally more than once, when his original post was not cocky, but only his gut reactions as he witnessed the video. The largest point of your post essentailly said he has no right to his opinion because he's young. If, perhaps, you had addressed him on the merits of his assertion, point by point, saying how this is not like that, then perhaps I wouldn't have said a thing. But even if there is a hint of reasonable debate in your post, you still cloaked it in so much belittling language that you made that the point of your post, rather than any sort of rational debate.

Finally, sir, if it is published on a public forum, for all the world to see, how can you say that I have no business posting? That does not make sense at all. This is a public discussion and anyone who is a member of the forum may post on any thing. If I cannot respond to you when you are not addressing me, how can you respond to the original post of the young man, since he was not addressing you specifically, either?

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 10:54 AM

Dorr its okay to turn facts around to support your position.

Columbine or any of the aforementioned events did not involve lining teachers up and executing them in front of students. They did not involve invited "historians" to come do some ersatz moronic execution display.

Each of those cases involved the illegal and immoral acts of pre-meditated murder.

Lets apply your logic a little more to the hobby, do simulated artillery barrages, explosions and small arms fighting of a reenactment hearken to the horrors of Um Quasar, Mei Lei or Normandy and thus improper as such ?

OVI

08-20-2009, 11:02 AM

Chris...you are making more out of this than is warrented. If you dont see a connection in killing people on school grounds then so be it. Others do.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 11:06 AM

My dear sir, I was addressing your response to the young gentleman, not your assessment one way or the other to the thing in itself.

The facts of your post dont support this..you specifically mention the appropriateness and other older reenactors responses.

It is your response to the young sir that I found unnecessarily demeaning, even though he expressed a basic reaction similar to others who stated their viewpoints without mentioning the school shootings.

The Young Sir got cocky in a PM and he still didnt know what he was talking about. Then when I didnt repsond he sent a second more cocky PM, sadly still missing the point.

But even if there is a hint of reasonable debate in your post, you still cloaked it in so much belittling language that you made that the point of your post, rather than any sort of rational debate.

Its not a debate. Comparing a group of farbs doing poorly contrived and miserably unrepresentative CW martial execution (of which there wer many) in a school, however moronic..... is nowhere on the same level or remotely comparable to Columbine and to do so for the emotional bolstering of your position as was done here by the "Young Sir" is not only disingenuous, but exceedingly disrespectful to the losses suffered by all gun crime victims and an indication of someone speaking about something when they are really out of their lane.

Finally, sir, if it is published on a public forum, for all the world to see, how can you say that I have no business posting? That does not make sense at all. This is a public discussion and anyone who is a member of the forum may post on any thing. If I cannot respond to you when you are not addressing me, how can you respond to the original post of the young man, since he was not addressing you specifically, either?

Post all you want to yer hearts content, but know of what you speak and cut the emotional triggers back a tad for your own sanity.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 11:24 AM

Chris...you are making more out of this than is warrented. If you dont see a connection in killing people on school grounds then so be it. Others do.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

So be it ? I dont see your spinning the innocent, though idiotic and historically unrepresentative display as comparable at the most elementary of levels to the wanton criminally insane acts of taking multiple lives in school and I somehow am in support of killing on school grounds ? From all the posts I have read of yours,I never would have expected this from you. I say that as man to man as one can convey thru the internets. There is another thread here with me a John Theilman going at it for the same thing..... Reenactors in school with guns does not equate to mass murder of children and adolescents irregardless of their level of farbiness.

Judge the action on Prima Facie retardedness, no need to hit the emotional hot buttons to puff up the "evilness". I detest that.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Pvt. Rufus Guy

08-20-2009, 11:30 AM

I agree completely with (most of) the views expressed by my fellow reenactors. (I'm still trying to understand FloridaConfederate's posts)

I just cannot understand how one of these folks in this unit didn't stand up and say "Hey guys, maybe we shouldn't do this" or "You know, I don't think this is really a good idea".

I've actually seen these guys in the field before in person and they have been known to do goofy and hokey "old west" type of scenarios. They have been an embarrassment to the local reenacting community for quite a while. Not only do they have an unsafe reputation but several decent CW reenactor groups refuse to be on the same field with them.

In May I watched in horror as they demonstrated a "drunken duel" and shot at each other with pistols at point blank range in front of several spectators including small children.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 11:37 AM

What in particular are you struggling with and perhaps I can make myself more clear ?

Or do you as well liken this to the cold-blooded multiple murders of children and adolescents in school by their peers ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Scooby_308

08-20-2009, 11:51 AM

In May I watched in horror as they demonstrated a "drunken duel" and shot at each other with pistols at point blank range in front of several spectators including small children.

Please tell me this wasn't a KY mainstream event...I see a lot of that...I hate it.

OVI

08-20-2009, 11:56 AM

Chris...I respect your point and I dont believe that you support killing on school grounds. All Im saying is that simulating shooting of teachers (or students etc) on school grounds has a psychological/emotional connection to those horrible crimes.
For you, obviously, there is enough intellectual distance not make the connection, but for some of the rest of us...it is there.
For me personally let me tell you why. On the day after the Columbine shootings, I did a school program at an elementary school. When I walked into that school with my firearm, I was very aware that my appearance with a weapon could be upsetting. I was bothered that I felt that way and I have never forgotten that, even after doing many school programs since.
The very idea of lining up non costumed spectators and firing a weapon to mock kill them crosses the line that exists between demonstrating living history and humorously executing teachers for amusement. Im not saying there is evil intent in doing so but there is an underlying suggestion of killing that makes a connection to those past crimes.
You are right to put the focus on the stupidity of these actions and the mockery of history.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 11:57 AM

In May I watched in horror as they demonstrated a "drunken duel" and shot at each other with pistols at point blank range in front of several spectators including small children.

Just caught this....

Oh noez! Small children !!!!!

That has to hearken back to something REALLY bad.

When does the horror become so much you man up and say something or get someone in authority, you know for the small children and all ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 12:11 PM

Chris...I respect your point and I dont believe that you support killing on school grounds. All I'm saying is that simulating shooting of teachers (or students etc) on school grounds has a psychological/emotional connection to those horrible crimes.
Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

I truly believe you and I am fully capable of saying I overreacted to your post. Firstly the mock execution in school was idiotic. Perhaps I was unclear on that.

If I put on my emotional lenses I see your point clearly. But in dealing with firearms my emotional lenses stay in the desk. The reality is there is no connection at all. Firearms are owned lawfully and responsibly in millions of homes. Firearms have been used to protect our Nation and streets since day one. Use the oppty, privilege and trust instilled in you by administration to bring a weapon to school to make the maximum good out of it, not emphasize the evil that man can do. I say bring gun safety training in the classroom.

It is not the inanimate object.... it is the person behind the gun and the factual pattern in these events are psychotropically medicated kids or young adults which lack the moral foundation of right and wrong and basic respect for life instilled in the home. Until you address that and focus on the scary gun, you do a disservice to future law abiding, responsible gun owners imbued with the a sense of their 2nd Amd. Freedoms...and I suspect they may need them more than our generation appreciated their necessity.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Mint Julep

08-20-2009, 12:52 PM

Not to disregard the inherent liability concerns of this demonstration of stupidity, but don't most states have laws against firearms at school now?

Before anyone starts in with the argument "muzzle loaders don't count", let me assure you that, in some states, they do. Reenactors have been arrested and had weapons confiscated at schools and I have seen at least one legal opinion from a state-employed legislative attorney that says it is illegal in the state of Tennessee, even with signed permission by the school officials.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 01:19 PM

Mint....not in all states....I have posted pics here previously of the Principal and School Resource Officer firing my artillery piece and a rifle volley.

The question when you have firearm at school is always "Is it real ????" Which if you do not view a gun as evil incarnate is the perfect segway to the 4 tenents of gun safety which I do EVERYTIME TO CHILDREN straight out of NRA's Eddie Eagle Program (how evil is that ?) ...I will switch gears into that like a flash of an impromptu cap firing demonstration by a pickle headed NCO.

CJR
TPA,FL

hiplainsyank

08-20-2009, 01:24 PM

Chris-

You're the one who made the leap to the 2nd Ammendment fight. No one here was looking to start any sort of debate--in the public record, I might add--on that issue. It's like you are going around looking for a fight on that issue, and injected it into a conversation where--again, at least to the public record--none was occuring. I doubt anyone here disputes the fact that millions of law-abiding Americans own firearms and never commit a crime with them, considering that probably almost everyone here owns at least one modern or antique/reproduction gun.

IMO, if the problem was first in a PM, then you should have responded with a PM instead of dragging down this thread.

Back to the conversation:

Perhaps a number of local non-yahoo reenactor groups should get together write a letter to the editor of the local paper stating in a respectful way many of the opinion written here regarding this "display". Or perhaps a letter to the principal of the school, stating the concerns, and perhaps offering their time for a better and less idiotic demonstration.

OVI

08-20-2009, 01:32 PM

Perhaps a number of local non-yahoo reenactor groups should get together write a letter to the editor of the local paper stating in a respectful way many of the opinion written here regarding this "display". Or perhaps a letter to the principal of the school, stating the concerns, and perhaps offering their time for a better and less idiotic demonstration.

That is an excellent suggestion. What school was this and where is it located?

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

Pvt. Rufus Guy

08-20-2009, 01:38 PM

I believe this particular incident took place at Nagel Middle School in the Cherry Grove neighborhood of Cincinnati, Ohio. Cherry Grove is on the far east end of Hamilton County in the Beechmont Avenue/ 275 area.

The group in question participates at events in the Greater Cincinnati region and tri-state area.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 01:43 PM

2nd Amendment Fight ?

Not really. My beef was the disingenuous comparing of these idiots to Columbine, you can obfuscate about me away from that but that fact still remains. A fact to which you have not yet answered to, but okay.

The 2nd AM part is part and parcel, used in support of my previous assertions and directly analogues to the vilification of and autonomous knee jerk emotional reaction by certain segments of society and more than one person in this thread to the presence of a properly approved firearm at school or around children. That is a fight I'll take to the grave. Everytime. So perhaps, henceforth, you might put me on IGNORE and not have to read my posts ? (Though I only post out here in retort to certain subjects in particular firearms law and support of good events and people).

But since you show a propensity to stretch your neck out into matters like a big ole snappin' turtle, perhaps the "executed teachers", school and world doesn’t need you to take up a crusade to the editor of the paper and they have exercised their best judgment and are satisfied ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

08-20-2009, 01:45 PM

Hallo!

"Not to disregard the inherent liability concerns of this demonstration of stupidity, but don't most states have laws against firearms at school now?"

Short answer is yes, they do.

Long answer is that different state laws define what is a "firearm" or "hazardous object" ( butter knife, knife, bayonet, nunchaku, etc.) is differently.
Some follow federal laws where our flintlocks and caplocks are not "firearms." Other states consider them firearms and subject to firearm ownership licenses or "cards."

In this state's Revised Code, a Civil War musket is not a firearm, but is a device capable of discharging a projectile and is therefore restricted. To (legally) bring one to a school for a talk or demonstration requires the written permission of the school board (and not even the principals' or individual teachers' verbal or written permission).
(Which can also be an issue with a neighbor across the street calling the local police and reporting that they saw a man take a rifle into a school building...)

In my experience, some lads know the federal laws, some lads know their state and local laws, and work within them.
While other lads simply rely on rolling the die for chance and good fortune, or the way "they have always" done their talks at schools and never had a problem. (IMHO, it is no court room defense to offer "But I always just brought my guns, knives, and bayonets into class and shot off a few blanks." That works as long as it works, and as long as a lad is willing to risk confiscation of his kit, fines, and/or jail time when being outside of the law backfires. "Nobody" has a problem with it, until just one person some day has a problem with it.)

Others' mileage, but not the laws, will vary.

CHS

Pvt. Rufus Guy

08-20-2009, 01:53 PM

I am a member of a group that frequently conducts living history demonstrations at public and private schools and when I first saw this incident I found it rather appalling and of poor taste.

You folks are right by saying that there are much better ways to conduct a successful program at a school without going into such nonsense as was exhibited in this video clip.

Also, my intent was not to initiate a thread fight but to inform others of this particular incident. I hope that this comment isn't misconstrued or thought of as a personal attack but it I can assure all that it is not. An incident of this magnitude affects all active reenactors in the hobby.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 01:54 PM

Awe ! HailsBells Kurt! in that context lets just throw up our arms and only take butter churns to demos. Wait butter will kill you.

If you have the permission and support of the Principal and SRO isnt it a little bit of that good ole ominous stretch that you will be wrapped up, bagged and tried with nothing but your assertion as defense ? Come on bud.

Or are you suggesting its a common practice in the LH hobby to covertly take a gun to a school for demos and not seek appropriate authorization prior to ? Cuz I dont see that here in FLA.

CR TPA, FL

Mint Julep

08-20-2009, 02:03 PM

To Chris' example, just because the principal and resource officer participated in the demo doesn't make it legal.

We had an incident at a school near here where the demonstrator had a signed permission slip from the school board and the principal was escorting him through the hall, per their understanding of procedure, and the school's patrolling deputy arrested the man and confiscated his weapon and told them all the DA would sort it out. (No charges were filed, but it took a while and the weapon was destroyed in the interim.)

On the flip side of this, I can recall getting on a bus as a kid and another student had an M-1 Garand in his lap that he was taking for show and tell.

And to think, we used to play gunfighters on the play ground in 4th grade. We all had cap guns strapped to our hips and were in different "gangs" and would blast away until the air hung heavy with cap smoke. The good ol' days!

sbl

08-20-2009, 02:40 PM

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/fun_toy_banned_because_of_three

Pvt Schnapps

08-20-2009, 02:48 PM

#32 08-07-2009, 04:02 PM
FloridaConfederate
Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,256

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough. I appreciate your taking the time to clarify the ground rules.

I welcome you and any other parties who understand the nature of the beast and wish to join.

I am not suspecting anything will flow into your main forum. I know outside of this thread (which I wont post in any longer) and the odd support post of an event or unit I personally know to be doing a stellar job (Ill stop that too.), I don't post in the main forums, I know some of the others are taking the same approach, so your forums can stay focused on the outstanding CW related discussions and youtube links y'all have.

Thanks..hope to see youns soon. This will be the last formal invite post.

Please PM if you would like to join in the fun.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

*************************

Yo, Chris, which part of the above didn't you mean when you picked up your marbles and decided to move to another sandbox? Couldn't take the back and forth there? Had to come back here and randomly beat up on teenagers and women? Who was it who said lying is the only unforgiveable sin? I guess that only applies to people named Clinton, not Rideout.

Hypocrite. At least Chawls was funny from time to time.

FloridaConfederate

08-20-2009, 03:04 PM

Pile on Schnapps.

Youve been told not to bring the Social Groups into the main rooms...did you not understand Tom's kind request ? Will you feel a sense of accomplishment to get the Social Group killed ?

Does it add a little more excitement than just your posting all day on the boards as a Federal Government employee on Federal time and computers you thief of tax payer dollars ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Brett

08-20-2009, 03:13 PM

I've done many school programs in California (about as gun-unfriendly as it gets) and, depending on the school, I might be able to fire blanks at one and then be prohibited from even bringing gunpowder at another. Usually when we do any shooting, there's a uniformed deputy sheriff there babysitting us (and the deputies are invariably awesome guys who enjoy the program as much as, if not more than, the kids do). California law prohibits firearms on school property in general but the penal code provides for a list of exceptions (including for flag ceremonies, color guards, and even "historical reenactments"), and the state of California does not include muzzle-loading long arms under the definition of "firearm"... yet. Now if somebody brought a cartridge-firing weapon like a Henry rifle, that might cross the line.

In short, I've taken the time to determine what the laws are in the places I do school demos. Unfortunately the sad fact is that in many parts of this country you can end up handcuffed in the back seat of a black and white for simply volunteering your time as a living historian doing a school demonstration.

Our demonstrations, by the way, are usually strictly in the first person. "We are", instead of "They were". To see things like this "execution" passing for a living history demonstration just makes me cringe.

Poor Private

08-20-2009, 03:43 PM

If I am not mistaken it isn't against the law to bring a firearm on school property. Now let me explain.
1- if the school does not receive any federal or state tax dollars you can bring a weapon. This included most if not all private schools.
2.- How do you justify being able to have weapons at publicly funded schools such as VMI, and other military prep schools which are receiving public funds.
3.-How many college schools have cannons fire after a touchdown on the field by the home team? Isn't a cannon a weapon?
4.- ROTC classes and their weapons training. Or how about the Marine drill team who show up at schools for demos(recruiting stunt). Look in the halls for a booth afterwards for seniors and juniors to talk too. I know cause they did this at my sons public school.
5.- In Michigan public schools are to ones you can't bring any weapons to wether it's BP, or modern or even if you have a CPL(carry pistol license).
My advise(not a lawyer) is to check your state laws before you even attemp to carry a weapon on federal or state property in your particular location.

indguard

08-20-2009, 06:43 PM

While I think our Florida friend, Chris, is getting a tad too off-handed and provocative in his replies to ya'all, I agree with his central point. It IS foolish to compare Columbine to these nitwits in Cincy.

What they did is silly and makes clowns of all reenactors. It isn't historical and it does not further any understanding of our past. It is full of yucks, but not in the least funny. They should never be asked back to a school, on top of it all. But to say it is somehow "just like" Columbine is absurd.

Furthermore we do NOT want to start calling schools and saying that they shouldn't be allowed to have guns there. That would destroy any chance of having any reenactors there in the future.

Anyway, I think we can ridicule these Artillery goofs without making ridiculous clams that they evoke Columbine with their foolishness. After all, there is really isn't any logical reason to say that they evoke Columbine and we would not if we were to do a Civil War program with our guns/rifles/muskets. Few people would see any logical reason to ban these Artillery dorks from Cincy and NOT ban us as well. It's a day of zero tolerance and there is nothing LESS subtle or LESS intelligent than dealing with a school administrator invoking that idiotic rule.

So, instead of raising incredibly self-defeating comparisons to Columbine, we should instead focus on the bad program that these guys did and criticize that. Going to such an extreme as raising Columbine defeats us all, not just the idiots in Cincy! And we must not shoot ourselves with the same shot with which we are trying to down these guys and their bad program.

WTH
The YeahSameToYou mess

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

08-20-2009, 06:55 PM

Hallo!

"Awe ! HailsBells Kurt! in that context lets just throw up our arms and only take butter churns to demos. Wait butter will kill you.

If you have the permission and support of the Principal and SRO isnt it a little bit of that good ole ominous stretch that you will be wrapped up, bagged and tried with nothing but your assertion as defense ? Come on bud."

My point is that ignorance of the law is no excuse in court. I am not saying take buter churns, but I am suggesting that there are sufficient examples of "things going wrong" to make it a sounder idea to know what laws apply where one lives or be prepared to suffer the consequences should something go wrong.
Will every lad who breaks their local or state version of firearms or hazardous objects laws be caught and punished? Obviously not. But there are enough examples of the exemptions to be of note, whether lads know or have heard of them or not.

The last incident here locally involved an elementary school kid expelled from school for a violation of the zero tolerance policy on knives. The kid was "busted" for the blunt and unedged red plastic knife included in cheese and crackers to spread the cheese. A "knife" is a "knife."

For me personally, I stopped doing school presentations when I was asked if I could come in with just a uniform and no gear or arms.
Granted, CW soldiers did not spend 100% of their time armed and accoutered. And granted that history can still be intepreted and shared without guns, bayonets, knives, and sowrds, etc. But, that is not something I am interested in doing even though I tell myself it is the students' loss not mine..

At my last morning presentation for 4th and 5th graders, I ran into a problem with an SEH/SBH child in the two class auditorium (due to inclusion policies) who was terrified of my "gun' and freaked out and howled. Her parents were not happy. While I broke no laws, and follwed Ohio law to the letter, I was not invited back.

"Or are you suggesting its a common practice in the LH hobby to covertly take a gun to a school for demos and not seek appropriate authorization prior to ? Cuz I dont see that here in FLA."

Good for you. And seriously, hurrah for Florida lads! Because, yes, from what I read on several CW boards when this topic comes up, numbers of lads either ignore their laws, don't think Rev War flintlocks or CW caplocks are firearms, etc., or as the case may be incorrectly think that a teacher's invitation sets aside the law.

My point is not to make a point, but rather to encourage lads to know their laws and follow them so that "bad things" do not happen to them such as fines, jail time, confiscation and destruction of their guns, and their present or future jobs not be put in jeopardy due to a felony conviction around their neck for trying to educate our youth and make history interesting.

Others' mileage, and public service messages, will vary...

CHS

sbl

08-20-2009, 07:17 PM

I stopped doing the school presentations when I could only bring a printed hand out of my rifle. (My idea) It was my son's private Catholic school as well.

I have seen those hockey executions being done since the 70s. The varients locally are the flogging and the tar and feathering. You have be ACTORS, not reenactors to do anything like that and it has to be in context to the event and site.

Bad example is a Tar and feathering in Woburn Mass done by the redcoats. Never happened but....

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/sbl1952/PathWay%20of%20the%20Patriots%202008/TF17.jpg

50th VA Corporal

08-20-2009, 08:04 PM

This was just a stupid thing to do on many accounts.

As re-enactors we have to elevate muskets at ranges further distances at re-enactments to begin with.

Plus, they just appear to be a poor portrayal of a Civil War soldier to boot.

Just stupid. Lawful or not.

hendrickms24

08-20-2009, 08:18 PM

All I have to say about this thread and the mock execution is the same thing the Church Lady aways says, "Isn't that special!" :roll:

Jeffrey Cohen

08-21-2009, 06:18 AM

I've discovered a new way to lose weight! After viewing the video I lost my appetite.
I wish I knew what group this was, so I could avoid them like the plaque.

bob 125th nysvi

08-21-2009, 06:27 AM

First, yes executions did happen in the CW as Chris pointed out but why waste a precious educational opportunity on what basically was a very small percentage of what actually happened is beyond me other than to think that the boys who staged the 'educational' seminar are basically among those reenactors most of us DON'T want to reenact with.

There are so many better ways to get both student and teacher involvement. For example when we do a demonstration we form the students up into a battle line (with wooden muskets) and have them charge an "enemy" line that usually consists of teachers. Everybody gets a big kick out of it and no one gets hurt (because we never let the lines come in contact). I'm sure others can cite other examples of other effective teaching methods.

As to guns on campus, I certainly come from one of the states with the more restrictive guns laws in the nation, and inherent in the 'no weapons on campus' laws is the ability to make exceptions. For example, on-duty police officers may enter a campus with their guns. There is also the ability of the school administration to make exceptions to the law with in the boundaries of educational purposes.

So for example on career day, the military is allowed to bring unloaded weapons onto campus so the kids get an idea of what is involved in being a soldier. Also on Civil War day we have a schools running the whole gambit from NO WEAPONS to a firing demonstration using blanks. It is all up to the administration and what they are comfortable with. Since it is their policy and they are making the rules the liability falls under their insurance.

As to the side argument Chris has decided to engage in with other members he is both right and wrong but being unnecessarily impolite and condescending as the false righteous often are.

To equate the mock shooting of teachers (however much in poor taste) with incidents on campus (such as Columbine) is another example of a very badly constructed argument akin to the 'if we take away guns people won't get killed' argument. As Archie Bunker once said to his daughter when she was spouting an anti-gun argument "Would be happier if they was pushed out windows?" People kill people and, if they wish, will find a way to do it no matter what, as they did for centuries prior to the invention of fire arms. A good deal of the problem with effectively dealing with a variety of issues in this country is an effort (by both sides) to emotionally demonize the other side's argument to make their argument seem stronger instead of a logical discussion of facts.

All that being said Chris you are way out of line insulting (not to mention your usual illogicality but that is another issue). First to chastise someone for something they said in a private email publically is in poor taste and a little cowardly since people only have your word on what was actually said in the PM. Either keep the conversation private or have the decency to ask the person to post their comments publically before you respond. If they choose not to say in public what they say in private then maybe they aren't even worth arguing with?

Secondly I often wonder about you since you do what many people in public life do (like Nancy Pelosi) that instead of arguing the point logically you get personally insulting. That is the sign of an immature intellect or maybe bankrupt is a better word. If you believe in the logical strength of your argument stick to the facts or logical and forgo the snide insulting little remarks. You are no where near as funny with your sarcasm as you think you are.

I am neither condoning nor agreeing with the argument on the other side but you are the one dragging it down to street bully level, if you wish ever to be taken seriously by anybody here than show a little more maturity.

And if you don't care if we take you seriously or not then maybe you should reconsider why you actually come here to post.

FloridaConfederate

08-21-2009, 06:51 AM

Secondly I often wonder about you since you do what many people in public life do (like Nancy Pelosi) that instead of arguing the point logically you get personally insulting. That is the sign of an immature intellect or maybe bankrupt is a better word. If you believe in the logical strength of your argument stick to the facts or logical and forgo the snide insulting little remarks. You are no where near as funny with your sarcasm as you think you are.

Immature intellect ? check

Illogicality ? at every turn

Cowardly ? Exceedingly

False rightousness ? drawn to it like a fat kid to cake

Rude ? to anti-gun Liberals, punk kids and elitest Yanks - oh yes

Bankrupt ? yep fo sure in more wayz than one

Funny ? eye of beholder

Taken seriously ? by who it matters

Maturity ? on the OZ..... Riiiiiiight.

But on the point about not addressing the issue ? Wrong on that one hard tail, I go right at the issue direct and thru period facts. Everytime.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

31stWisconsin

08-21-2009, 09:26 AM

FloridaConfederate

08-21-2009, 09:42 AM

Chris, every time you post you seek conflict and the thread usually goes to sh!t. I don't why you get you jollies getting into nonconstructive arguments but like the rest of this forum no one finds you funny. Every time someone post a convincing and well thought-out argument against you, you either change the topic(like the 2nd amendment in this thread, which came out of nowhere) or just ramble on and no one can follow you. You can't debate and aren't witty. I wish Tom would ban you, and I bet everyone on this forum wishes that too.

Thanks for your observations Scott. Your wrong on the everytime part, There are hundreds of threads here everyday...I dont post in at all.

But yep, let someone take a swipe at my Constutionally protected 2ndA freedoms and look for me to pipe up everytime. Compare moronic school displays to the wanton slaughter of innocent children to trump the emotional arguement...I am there too.

As to the rest of the forum and the ban......I am cool with that. Very cool. I have the support I need in the hobby from the folks and events that matter.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

TheQM

08-21-2009, 09:50 AM

Gentlemen,

There is a fool proof method for handling argumentative or non-constructive posts. Be your own moderator and just don't respond.

plankmaker

08-21-2009, 09:53 AM

Bill,

That makes entirely too much sense and involves the use of logic. Cut it out now.

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

FloridaConfederate

08-21-2009, 09:56 AM

Chris, every time you post you seek conflict and the thread usually goes to sh!t. I don't why you get you jollies getting into nonconstructive arguments but like the rest of this forum no one finds you funny. Every time someone post a convincing and well thought-out argument against you, you either change the topic(like the 2nd amendment in this thread, which came out of nowhere) or just ramble on and no one can follow you. You can't debate and aren't witty. I wish Tom would ban you, and I bet everyone on this forum wishes that too.

Lets play Well Thought out and Convincing Arguments for $500 Alex....

Where is the Well Thoughtout and Convincing argument in this thread ?

The argument that this demo is tantamount to the Columbine Excecutions and we need to call the papers and schools and get guns out ? I changed it to 2A and the need to teach gun safety and take advantage of the trust put in you to do demos ?

I think you dont like me which is cool, few very few do, but if you going to be high and mighty, be accurate.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

uozumi

08-21-2009, 10:04 AM

Doesn't it seem likely that the teachers asked this particular group to "execute" them as an entertaining ending to their Civil War Day? It seems very unlikely that they would advertise "mock executions on your schools teachers!" They were probably doing as they were asked and it did fit in with the event. It was a fun day for the kids to learn while still having a bit of fun. It seems the same as when the school principle used to eat grasshoppers or kiss a frog when the kids read so many books. In eight grade, they took us to the Renaissance Faire, where we saw mock death of every kind as a conclusion to our Medieval period (Historical? No. Fun? Yes!) Some of the students took more of an interest in the time period after the trip. Would you have denied their request if they had hired you? I'm assuming the teacher "executed" was probably a friend of the regiment anyway.

Steph Farra