Packing/Equipping a Double Bag Knapsack?

[crowley_greene]

Can someone point me in a good direction for the "correct" way to pack/equip a double bag knapsack? I searched the Internet, and what I found was lots of sites that sell double bags. And I didn't do any better doing a search on this Forum.

I have an MB&S double bag that I purchased in 2001 and used at the North-South Alliance event at Raymond. Shortly after that some difficult life circumstances pushed me out of the lifestyle for several years. Now I'm getting ready to use my double bag again for the first time in eight years this weekend, and I just don't remember anything about packing it.

Even links to informative web sites would be great.

Murray Therrell

[akcampaigner]

http://www.26nc.org/Articles/knapsack%20and%20blanket%20roll.pdf

[Mint Julep]

Murray,

Good to hear you are getting back out there.

The most important thing to remember about packing a knapsack?

Don't over do it.

[Silas]

Didn't that Kevin O'Beirne dude write something about packing knapsacks about a decade ago in the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium? A search for it might find several copies of it online. Then again, maybe not.

[bob 125th nysvi]

article. Send me you email address by PM and I'll send it to you.

But basically it boils down like this:

1) Blanket and shelter half in the bag next to your back. I put the shelter half on to so I don't get the blanket dirty when setting up camp.

2) The straps on top are for a greatcoat but depending on the time of year you probably aren't going to carry one so I put my extra oilcloth up there.

3) Your poncho/oilcloth-rain-whatever between the bags to is is easily accessible.

4) Everything else in the outer bag.

In mine I carry some rope, extra shirt and drawers, two extra pairs of socks, a small towel, my night cap, a set of dominoes and two small metal hooks. I also get a poke bag with with my wooden shelter stakes in it. But what you carry will vary based on what you want to carry.

[crowley_greene]

Andrew, thanks for sharing that link with me. I like that it's a pdf file that I can save and print out!

Murray Therrell

[Pvt Schnapps]

“An Experiment in Knapsack Weight”
(From the Official Records, Series I, Volume 25, Part II, pp. 486-489)

SPECIAL ORDERS, HEAD QUARTERS ARMY OF THE POTOMAC,
No. 65. Camp near Falmouth, Va., March 7, 1863.
* * * * * * *

In pursuance of Special Orders, No. 65, from headquarters Army of the Potomac, the board therein detailed assembled, and proceeded to make the experiment required, and arrived at the conclusion hereinafter stated.
In order to ascertain the amount of weight usually carried by soldiers in this army, average knapsacks were weighed, with the contents therein and blanket rolled on top, and the mean weight was found to be 15 pounds.
We then took out the contents of the knapsack, and packed inside ten days’ rations of hard bread, to wit:
Pounds.
100 biscuits and ten days’ sugar and coffee, and it then weighed, with blanket. 17
Without blanket 11¾
With a change of clothing—shirt, drawers, and socks. 18½
With coffee, sugar, and desiccated vegetables 20½
Three days’ rations of biscuit, bacon, and small-stores were put into a haversack, and it weighed – 5¾
The average weight of blanket 5¼
The average weight of overcoat 5¼
The average weight of half shelter-tent 1¾
The average weight of change of clothing 2

It was found that knapsacks would easily contain one hundred crackers, and that it was better to place at least as much as one shirt in the part of the knapsack next to the soldier’s back, in order that the biscuit might not chafe the skin, and that so long as a knapsack is carried neither the weight of the extra clothing nor the space occupied by it was sufficient to justify dispensing with the same; in fact, it can be carried better than not.
It is also to be observed that ten biscuits, although called a day’s ration, are not sufficient upon the march, when no other articles, such as beans, rice, and desiccated vegetables, are issued.
The board further placed five days’ rations of bacon in a haversack, with ten days’ coffee and sugar, and that amount was tried upon a soldier and worn without difficulty. But it should be here stated that the haversack is found, when loaded to its capacity, to fatigue the men in moderate or cold weather more than a knapsack with 15 pounds inside.
The board, after numerous experiments, and from their previous experience with troops in the field, agreed upon the following conclusions:
At a maximum, the men, by dispensing with extra clothing, except one extra shirt, drawers, and socks, can carry in their knapsacks one hundred biscuits and eight days’ small-stores, and, in the haversacks, two days’ cooked rations, which, with eight days’ fresh beef upon the hoof will make ten days’ full rations. Two days’ only are put in the haversack, for the reason that the weight is more easily carried upon the back.
The board also thought that if two pack-mules with pack-saddles were furnished to each regiment, a sufficient number of camp-kettles might be carried, with rations of rice, beans, and desiccated vegetables sufficient to cook the fresh beef properly, and furnish the necessary quantity of soup upon all occasions, and make the one hundred biscuits last ten days instead of eight, as before stated.
The question creating most embarrassment in the minds of the board was how to provide for line officers who have no knapsacks, but it is considered that all difficulties can be obviated upon ordinary marches if each line officer is required to employ the servant for which he is paid. The officer himself can carry his blanket and two days’ rations, and the servant the balance; it being understood that his necessary baggage and mess-chest should be carried in a reserve column of transportation.
The foregoing is stated to show what can be carried under the most favorable circumstances, but considering the marching rate, the state of the roads, and the fact that three days’ rations has heretofore been the maximum amount, the board recommend as follows:
1. That all extra clothing, except a change of underclothing, be stored.
2. That five days’ rations of bread and small-stores be placed in the knapsack.
3. Three days’ cooked rations in the haversack, and five days’ fresh beef upon the hoof
4. Two mules per regiment to carry camp-kettles, rice, beans, &c.

Each soldier will carry—
Pounds.
Haversack 5¾
Knapsack 6
Blanket 5¼
Clothing . . . . 2
Total 19

Making 13¼ pounds in the knapsacks, being 24 pounds less than the weight usually carried by soldiers in this army in their knapsacks.

RECAPITULATION.
Days.
Maximum, with 2 mules’ transportation 12
Maximum without transportation 10
Mean 8

All of which is respectfully submitted.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Part II Series I, Volume 25, pp. 544-547

CAMP NEAR FALMOUTH, VA., May 29, 1863.
Brig. Gen. M. C. MEIGS,
Quartermaster- General U. S. Army, Washington, D. C:

GENERAL: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of the 12th instant, requesting a report of the operations of the quartermaster’s department during the late campaign, and answers to certain inquiries.
I have required a report from each of the chief quartermasters of the different corps. They are herewith inclosed, marked from A to II. I beg you will give these reports a close perusal, because they are very full, and contain much valuable information for our department touching the movement of troops in the field. In submitting these papers, I shall deem it necessary to give my views very briefly.
A copy of a report prepared by General Pleasonton, now commanding the Cavalry Corps, showing its present condition, is submitted, marked I.* Also, a copy of the proceedings of the board detailed to examine how many days rations, clothing, & c., can be carried by troops on their persons on a march without wagons, herewith, marked K.
I will reply to your questions as follows:
Question 1. “The orders for the outfit and equipment.”
Answer. It was ordered mainly that each man should carry eight days short rations of provisions, one change of underclothing, and 60 rounds of ammunition on his person. He was also to carry his blanket or overcoat, his musket, and accouterments. In many instances both blanket and overcoat were carried, but it was not the intention.
Question 2. “The details of the outfit and equipment; the burden carried by each soldier, and its weight,” & c.
Answer. The total weight carried by each soldier was 45 pounds. It consisted of his knapsack, haversack, subsistence, and change of underclothing, overcoat or blanket, arms and accouterments, and one piece of shelter-tent. Eight days short rations were carried on the person, stowed as follows: Five days in the knapsack, and three days in the haversack; 40 rounds of ammunition were carried in the cartridge-boxes, and 20 rounds in the pockets of the man’s clothing. The total weight carried by the men, as reported by the different corps quartermasters, varies somewhat. The amount stated by me, however, is the correct figure.
Question 3. “Same as to officers.”
Answer. Each officer was responsible for his own outfit. It was to be carried by himself or servant. In some instances a few pack animals were used.
Question 4. “What tents were taken with the troops, and how transported?”
Answer. Shelter-tents were taken by the troops, each soldier carrying a piece.
Question 5. “What wagons, if any, accompanied the marching columns?”
Answer. No wagons followed the main column over the river at first. Some ammunition wagons were brought up, but not necessarily.
Question 6. “What pack trains?”
Answer. Pack-mules were used to transport reserve ammunition, and to pack up other supplies from the wagon parks.
Question 7. “The details of loading of each wagon and pack-mule”
Answer. A 6-mule wagon will carry 1,400 short rations of provisions, bread, coffee, sugar, salt, and soap, and eight days rations of short forage for the 6 mules, or 25 boxes small-arms ammunition. A good pack-mule could carry 2 boxes small-arms ammunition, and six days oats for himself, or an equivalent in weight of subsistence for men.
Question 8. “The organization of the teams.”
Answer. The teams and pack trains were distributed to the corps and other commanders on the basis established in my circular of March 10, 1863, herewith, marked L. It was ordered that mules for packing should be drawn from the ammunition and supply trains when necessary, but never more than 2 from any one team, thus leaving 4 mules for the wagon. By this arrangement, all the wagons could move forward when required, with moderate loads, while pack trains were being used.
Question 9. “The actual supply of ammunition and of rations accompanying the marching column.”
Answer. The troops carried eight days supply of provisions and 60 rounds of ammunition on their persons.
Question 10. “The supplies moved from Falmouth and following in rear of the army.”
Answer. On the wagons and pack-mules there must have been at least six or eight days more, all loaded and ready for the road. There was a plentiful supply of ammunition.
Question 11. “What did the troops carry through the campaign? Did they throw away overcoats, & c.?”
Answer. The troops carried through the campaign only those things most necessary for their constant use. On the second and third days many abandoned overcoats and blankets, as the weather was warm. Very many abandoned their knapsacks on going into action. The impulse with the soldiers to throw off all impediments, under such circumstances, is almost irresistible. With proper discipline, soldiers can be made to take care of their knapsacks and all other property put on their persons. On the late campaign a blanket should have been taken, but no overcoat. Both weigh a man down too heavily, and are not necessary in moderate weather. When men become heated or fatigued they will throw away such articles as are not imperatively needed. On short campaigns, or marches of four or five days without wagons, I would not take a knapsack at all, but would put the rations in the haversacks, and other things in the blanket, well folded, and thrown over the right shoulder, and looped under the left arm. But if knapsacks containing rations, & c., are worn by troops, they should be made to fight with them on; or, if that be deemed unadvisable, great care should be taken, before putting them in action, to have the knapsacks stowed away properly in the rear. On the late campaign, the army abandoned in battle about 25 per cent. of the whole number. With due precaution, these might, of course, have been saved. Along the roads and at camp-grounds I saw many parts of blankets, overcoats, & c., discarded. The accompanying reports will show quite clearly how much clothing was used up and abandoned in the campaign. The army was perfectly equipped at the commencement in every particular, so far as concerned our department. The issues made immediately after were to supply deficiencies, which arose in the interim. On future marches this army will correct the errors referred to.
Question. 12. “Have the men shown ability to carry those supplies without injury to health?”
Answer. The troops exhibited adequate strength to carry all the articles composing their outfit. Marches were never made with more cheerfulness, vigor, and regularity. The army could have marched the eight days without embarrassment, so far as supplies were concerned. While at Chancellorsville, no difficulty was experienced by our department in bringing forward all that was required. At no time aid I feel that there could be any failure to supply the army on either side of the Rappahannock.
Question 13. “What are the daily marches? A map or itinerary of each brigade’s or division’s march would be of value.”
Answer. A sketch is inclosed, marked IV,* showing the theater of the operations. The system of transportation adopted with this army works admirably, and experience and observation have suggested no further change. I am satisfied with it, and I believe this army is. The number of ambulances is now reduced to two to each regiment. The pack-mule system cannot be relied on for long marches with heavy columns. I shall have few hereafter, and intend to make them auxiliary simply to wagons, for short distances over rough country, where there are few and bad roads. The new standard of means of transportation for the cavalry is as follows:
Four wagons to each 1,000 men for small-arm ammunition.
One wagon for hospital supplies for each regiment.
One wagon for regimental headquarters.
One wagon and two pack-mules for each company.
I do not consider that this scale can be amended. I desire to state that all the animals belonging to our department are now in splendid condition, except the pack-mules, most of which are in good order as to flesh, but have been galled badly in packing.
I wish to call your attention to General Pleasonton’s report, in order that you may perfectly understand why I call for so many cavalry horses. The report explains the case briefly. You will recollect that just before our late cavalry raid there was a review of the whole corps by His Excellency the President of the United States. It was admitted on all sides that the corps was then in fine condition. There were present for duty at that time certainly at least 10,000 horses. To-day not more than 5,000 serviceable ones can be mustered in the corps. There has been no complaint of extraordinary marches or want of forage. What, then, has temporarily destroyed these horses? If we inflicted a proportionate loss on the enemy, he has suffered terribly.
There was too much weight carried on the cavalry horses after leaving the Rappahannock; they were not unsaddled, perhaps, and groomed at intervals, to say nothing of irregular watering and feeding, & c.
I am, very respectfully, your most obedient servant,
RUFUS INGALLS,
Brig Gen., and Chief Quartermaster Army of the Potom

[bob 125th nysvi]

both are nice examples of the Army bureaucracy at work but in neither case do I see an order making the recommendations the standard. Do you have a copy of such an order?

There is always a lot of 'this or that' type of testing that goes on in any military but not all of it is adopted.

[Bill_Cross]

2) The straps on top are for a greatcoat but depending on the time of year you probably aren't going to carry one so I put my extra oilcloth up there.
Bob,

The greatcoats were turned-in each Spring WITH the leather straps, so technically-speaking it's not correct to tie anything to the top of the knapsack with those straps. Some twine or rope is fine, anything the soldier could have scrounged or purchased.

Depending on the weight of the blankie, you can also wrap it with your gum blanket and store it away. I can do this, for example, with my Summer-weight Abe Thomas blanket, but not with the massive "Denmark" blankie County Cloth once made.

[Pvt Schnapps]

both are nice examples of the Army bureaucracy at work but in neither case do I see an order making the recommendations the standard. Do you have a copy of such an order?

There is always a lot of 'this or that' type of testing that goes on in any military but not all of it is adopted.

General Order 274 of August 7, 1863, repeats the recommendations of Ingalls, making them in theory effective for the army as a whole. Ingalls would remain the QMG of the AOP till war's end. You can find the order here: http://books.google.com/books?id=AdsSAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0wuwSnrfsR-LqE2aNunEr_#v=snippet&q=knapsacks&f=false

There's a good parallel discussion on the AC forum, going into some variations, here: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24268

Commanders in the field could set their own rules. W. S. Lincoln, in "Life With the Thirty-Fourth Mass. Infantry" records Hunter's Department of West Virginia G.O. 29 for May 22, 1864, which reads in part:

"II. For the expedition on hand, the clothes each soldier has on his back, with one pair of extra shoes, and socks, are amply sufficient. Everything else, in the shape of clothing, will be packed to-day, and sent to the rear. Each knapsack will contain one hundred rounds of ammunition, carefully packed; four pounds of hard bread, to last eight days, ten rations of coffee, sugar, and salt, one pair of shoes and socks, and nothing else."

***

Bill and others, I don't think that it's at all clear that the straps on top of the knapsack are the same as the "overcoat straps" mentioned in the clothing lists. The ORs show no direct correlation between the number of overcoat straps procured and the number either of knapsacks or overcoats. Knapsacks are typically described as "with straps," we have numerous pictures of infantrymen without overcoats but with blankets strapped to the top of the knapsack, and we have a column in the Army and Navy Journal (cited earlier either here or on the AC forum -- easy enough to search for) in which the superintendent of West Point (the army's answer man in the Journal) states that overcoats are to be carried folded within the flaps of the bag, which is how some people read the Regs to begin with.

This is not to say you're wrong, actually. The fact that the question came up at all as late as 1865 means that various practices were followed during the war; the only way to be wrong is to say there was one proper way.

[Bill_Cross]

Bill and others, I don't think that it's at all clear that the straps on top of the knapsack are the same as the "overcoat straps" mentioned in the clothing lists. The ORs show no direct correlation between the number of overcoat straps procured and the number either of knapsacks or overcoats. Knapsacks are typically described as "with straps," we have numerous pictures of infantrymen without overcoats but with blankets strapped to the top of the knapsack, and we have a column in the Army and Navy Journal (cited earlier either here or on the AC forum -- easy enough to search for) in which the superintendent of West Point (the army's answer man in the Journal) states that overcoats are to be carried folded within the flaps of the bag, which is how some people read the Regs to begin with.

This is not to say you're wrong, actually. The fact that the question came up at all as late as 1865 means that various practices were followed during the war; the only way to be wrong is to say there was one proper way.
It's rare that I will tangle with you on a question of details, Schnapps, but I think FROM A PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW it's safer to err on the side of caution (straps go with greatcoat) rather than have us allowing another example of "anything goes." I'd prefer to see someone research the photos to see what turns up more often rather than try to reconcile stats this way.

And from a PRACITCAL consideration, you'll do better tying something as small as a gum blankie on top of your knapsack with a cord or other tie-down rather than the leather straps, which are clearly intended for something thicker.

[bob 125th nysvi]

Bob,

The greatcoats were turned-in each Spring WITH the leather straps, so technically-speaking it's not correct to tie anything to the top of the knapsack with those straps. Some twine or rope is fine, anything the soldier could have scrounged or purchased.

I was aware that after 1862 (at least in the AoP) the greatcoats were packed up in the Spring and reissued in the fall but this is the first I've heard of the straps going with them.

Of course once that happened the spot became available for whatever the soldier fancied, tent, blanket or in my case extra oilcloth.

What we see in the quotations Mike has given us is a good example of how design is adapted to be more functional.

The Kevin O'Bernie article (which by the way is a great article for fresh fish from someone who has been published quite often) is the "regulation" way of doing it prior to the war.

What Mike quotes us is official experiments and orders issued by various commands that reflect the 'higher ups' views of how the manual ought to be adapted.

And what we also have is letters and diaries by the soldier of what they actually wound up doing.

In many ways this creates a quandary for reenactors. Is the manual "right"? Is the adapted procedures "right"? Is what the soldiers wrote "right"?

Makes us realize that what happened is maybe not so black and white as many of us would like to believe (or treat as gospel).

[Bill_Cross]

I was aware that after 1862 (at least in the AoP) the greatcoats were packed up in the Spring and reissued in the fall but this is the first I've heard of the straps going with them.
While the greatcoat can be folded properly with its own sleeves and belt to secure it, imagine thousands of them tossed onto a wagon and coming undone?
In many ways this creates a quandary for reenactors. Is the manual "right"? Is the adapted procedures "right"? Is what the soldiers wrote "right"?

Makes us realize that what happened is maybe not so black and white as many of us would like to believe (or treat as gospel).
The beauty of the double bag is that, once you put your blankie/shelter half/gum blankie in the strapped "bin," there's **** little room left in the bag for much of anything else. If you put your blanket or other covering in there, you will have no room for a shirt and personal items.

Putting something where the greatcoat is supposed to be mounted will, if the weight of the pack is not evenly-distributed, put strain on the wearer's shoulders.

There's an elegant simplicity to it all. Really. ;)

[Pvt Schnapps]

While the greatcoat can be folded properly with its own sleeves and belt to secure it, imagine thousands of them tossed onto a wagon and coming undone?

The beauty of the double bag is that, once you put your blankie/shelter half/gum blankie in the strapped "bin," there's **** little room left in the bag for much of anything else. If you put your blanket or other covering in there, you will have no room for a shirt and personal items.

Putting something where the greatcoat is supposed to be mounted will, if the weight of the pack is not evenly-distributed, put strain on the wearer's shoulders.

There's an elegant simplicity to it all. Really. ;)

Bill, I'm not saying "anything goes." I'm saying practice varied according to where you were when, and to state that there's simply one best way for everyone throughout the war is to willfully ignore the historical facts.

Further, as a practical matter, nothing you say quite makes sense. If you go back to the quote from Chisholm, you'll see that excess clothing was boxed up, not just folded and thrown in a wagon. And if you box them, folding makes more sense than rolling. And if you get rid of the straps on the knapsack (instead of using separately issued "overcoat straps") you can't strap your blanket up there. And if you can't strap your blanket up there and have to put it in your bag, you can't store 8-10 days worth of hard tack in the knapsack as Ingalls reports was done in May, '63 (note, Bob: only the first part of what I posted earlier was the report of an experiment -- the second was the report of what was actually done when the AOP went off to Chancellorsville).

With your blanket in the knapsack you also can't store what Hunter ordered his men to store in their knapsacks in May, 1864, including the extra ammo and shoes.

I should also mention that the higher and tighter the weight, the easier it is to wear the knapsack without throwing your neck and back out. That's the reason many of us run the shoulder straps through the top straps and cross the belt hooks onto the shoulder straps. It's not comfortable, but it rides a lot better over 5, 10, or 20 miles than otherwise.

Part of your error lies in your assumption that the "overcoat straps" are necessarily the straps on top of the knapsack, despite the numerous photographs of soldiers with blankets strapped on top, the varying acquisition statistics (see page 285 of the ORs, Series III, Volume 5: 2.8 million foot overcoats, 1 million mounted overcoats, and 2 million overcoat straps, compared to 3.6 million knapsacks -- figure that one out for me, will you?), and the words of the Superintendent of West Point (see the December 24, 1864 issue of the Army and Navy Journal, "Questions on Tactics": "12. The overcoat is now carried inside the knapsack").

So far, I've seen no other references cited in support of your statements than Kevin's article and the CRRC, without specific quotes from either. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. O'Beirne, and for the work that went into the CRRC, but from the primary sources I've seen, it's simply wrong to tell people that the straps on the knapsack are necessarily the same as "overcoat straps," that the great coat has to be rolled instead of folded, or that the blanket should be carried inside the knapsack, or that any one way of doing things is the "right" default stance for all soldiers in all periods of the war. The records we have strongly suggest otherwise.

[Bill_Cross]

Bill, I'm not saying "anything goes." I'm saying practice varied according to where you were when, and to state that there's simply one best way for everyone throughout the war is to willfully ignore the historical facts.
I understand your point. I am not ingnoring the historical facts, but putting less credence in the written word, especially since the Army often would "legislate" while the soldiers would "actuate."
Further, as a practical matter, nothing you say quite makes sense. If you go back to the quote from Chisholm, you'll see that excess clothing was boxed up, not just folded and thrown in a wagon.
My position is the coats were stored. Whether they were boxed up or folded can't really be determined. Do you have references to numbers of coats boxed, or are you falling back on the regs? Pity Tim Kindred isn't lurking, he has a wealth of information about greatcoats and is my informal "source," though from memory, and if I'm incorrect, it's my error and not Tim's.
And if you get rid of the straps on the knapsack (instead of using separately issued "overcoat straps") you can't strap your blanket up there.
Straps would be relatively easy to acquire, and I'm not suggesting that the blanket CAN'T be strapped (or otherwise tied down) up there. You are confusing things said about how to carry a full pack comfortably. There are other means, including using a stick run through the hanging loup and secured by straps or twine. Those of us who carry an extra gummy have been known to roll it on top of the pack like a blanket.
And if you can't strap your blanket up there and have to put it in your bag, you can't store 8-10 days worth of hard tack in the knapsack as Ingalls reports was done in May, '63.
??? The blanket is stored in the "flaps." There's no way to put hard tack or anything else there. You're raising a non-issue.
With your blanket in the knapsack you also can't store what Hunter ordered his men to store in their knapsacks in May, 1864, including the extra ammo and shoes.
I will give you the shoes, Schnapps, but unless you can cite chapter and verse, I suspect carrying extra shoes was NOT PEC.
I should also mention that the higher and tighter the weight, the easier it is to wear the knapsack without throwing your neck and back out. That's the reason many of us run the shoulder straps through the top straps and cross the belt hooks onto the shoulder straps. It's not comfortable, but it rides a lot better over 5, 10, or 20 miles than otherwise.
You have more experience with long marches than most in the hobby, and I would not dispute your remedies, but we're not talking 20 miles marches for most of us.
Part of your error lies in your assumption that the "overcoat straps" are necessarily the straps on top of the knapsack, despite the numerous photographs of soldiers with blankets strapped on top, the varying acquisition statistics (see page 285 of the ORs, Series III, Volume 5: 2.8 million foot overcoats, 1 million mounted overcoats, and 2 million overcoat straps, compared to 3.6 million knapsacks -- figure that one out for me, will you?).
It's a similar argument to whether the Union army issued tent poles, and if so, who got them, and if not, what did soldiers do to build dog tents? The numbers don't add up.
... and the words of the Superintendent of West Point (see the December 24, 1864 issue of the Army and Navy Journal, "Questions on Tactics": "12. The overcoat is now carried inside the knapsack").
I don't care what the Superindtendent of WP said, I'm damned if I can see how the greatcoat could be carried INSIDE the knapsack. Perhaps if you're wearing a Jarnigan.... ;)

This is where I think you've undone yourself. The regs dictate something that's highly difficult, if not impossible. The coat was rolled up with its belt into a shape not distinctly different from a blanket. Wrap a gummie around it, and you're ready for any and all incliment weather. Fold it up and put it in the flapped portion of the knapsack? I don't see that flaps closing properly. You've marched much further than I have at a stretch, but it also seems as if it would make the weight displaced unfavorably.
So far, I've seen no other references cited in support of your statements than Kevin's article and the CRRC, without specific quotes from either. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. O'Beirne, and for the work that went into the CRRC, but from the primary sources I've seen, it's simply wrong to tell people that the straps on the knapsack are necessarily the same as "overcoat straps," that the great coat has to be rolled instead of folded, or that the blanket should be carried inside the knapsack, or that any one way of doing things is the "right" default stance for all soldiers in all periods of the war. The records we have strongly suggest otherwise.
Well, I never thought the day would come when I'd defend Kevin, but my respect for the research put into the CRRC by him and John Tobey outweighs my admiration for your knowledge of the regulations. Because at the end of the day, it's what the photograph evidence tells us that will trump the words, and I don't know if there are enough photos from the field. The ones I looked at while composing this reply were inconclusive or staged in a studio. I don't know what Kevin's and John's sources were, but I don't think your assertion that they lack sources, so that proves your point is valid until one or both of them discovers this thread and replies.

[Pvt Schnapps]

It's too late to edit my previous post, but I meant to add that, of the 2 million overcoat straps procured by the army during the war, p. 278 of Series III, Vol. 5 of the ORs states that 949,000 remained in the depots, unissued, at the end of the war.

Bill, you aren't citing any references at all, are you? You're just trying to nitpick my citations of not just army policy, but reports of what was issued and what was carried. The evidence for extra shoes is Hunter's order and W. S. Lincoln's history of the 34th MA; the evidence for 8-10 days of hardtack are the general orders of the AOP and the report by Ingalls (as well as appended reports by corps QM) in the ORs. Vague references to something Tim Kindred told you once upon a time just don't cut it.

I'll forgive you for not reading my quote from Chisholm, since it turns out I posted it on the AC forum in a similar discussion. But here it is:

The Civil War Notebook of Daniel Chisholm (W. Springer Menge and J. August Shimrak, eds., Ballantine Books, New York, 1989):

(p. 48 ) “Monday, Novr 7th [1864] Our overcoats came up to day that we had left at Brandy Station April 20th. I went over and took charge of Co 'K's' boxes. I opened them and took out 68 overcoats, some dress Coats, shirts, Drawers, &c., and we have only 17 men left here in Co K to take them and some of them did not send coats to the rear. 70 men killed, wounded, sick and missing since May 3rd. It makes me sad to read over the names & know so many of them will never say here or present again."

BTW, you carry the overcoat inside the knapsack by folding it and placing it within the two halves.

That said, all reenactors should know how to both fold and roll the overcoat and come prepared to do it either way depending on what their officers and NCOs require. There's plenty of evidence to show it done either way.

And that's my basic point. You, the CRRC, and everyone else presuming to lecture other reenactors on history need to make sure you have your ducks in a row and resist the temptation to say there's one best way when the facts don't back you up.

Here are a few more cites, all from participants:

This has the blanket on top --

Battles and Leaders, Vol. I, The Century Co., 1887, p. 154-155: “Going to the Front” by Warren Lee Goss
Just here let me name over the contents of my knapsack, as a fair sample of what all the volunteers started with. There were in it a pair of trousers, two pairs of drawers, a pair of thick boots, four pairs of stockings, four flannel shirts, a blouse, a looking-glass, a can of peaches, a bottle of cough-mixture, a button-stick, chalk, razor and strop, the " tailor's shop" spoken of above, a Bible, a small volume of Shakspere, and writing utensils. To its top was strapped a double woolen blanket and a rubber one. Many other things were left behind because of lack of room in or about the knapsack.

This has the overcoat on top, but demonstrates how to distribute the load --

Chronicles of the Twenty-First Regiment, New York State Volunteers, J. Harrison Mills, Buffalo, 1887, p. 57
A knapsack, to contain everything the soldier must carry there, need not weigh over eighteen pounds, and if properly packed and slung, can be carried very comfortably. Experience teaches him to get the weight as high as possible on his shoulders, and then, by leaning slightly forward, to bring it directly over the centre of gravity, he avoids that backward strain on the shoulders and chest, which is so terribly fatiguing. To do this, he packs it snugly and squarely as possible, and passes the shoulder-straps through those which hold the overcoat, drawing the latter forward upon the neck.

Here the author actually refers to the knapsack straps as "blanket straps" --
History of the Corn Exchange Regiment, 118th Pennsylvania Volunteers, Survivor’s Association, Philadelphia, 1888 p. 372
James W. Hyatt, a private of H, not disposed to trust his knapsack to the custody of others, had taken it with him to the new position. It was not discovered in the darkness that he was still carrying it. Whilst the men were crouching low to avoid the heavy shelling the opening of our batteries had provoked, Hyatt rose from his position and, with his knees planted firmly on the knapsack, proceeded to tighten the blanket straps.

... a couple more to follow ...

[Pvt Schnapps]

This is interesting just for the way of carrying the gum blanket --

The Story of a Regiment, Ebeneezer Hannaford, Cincinatti, 1868
No supper, no fires, and with most no blankets, our knapsacks having been left in a pile on the bluff, when we first lauded. Fortunately, I had strapped my India-rubber blanket over my cartridge-box belt, instead of on my knapsack, before leaving Savanna, and now it proved most useful.

In this case the soldier actually strapped both overcoat and blanket on top the knapsack, which might explain why those straps are as long as they are (I also like the part about tucking some of the excess luggage in the haversack -- a big no-no in the CRRC, but mentioned more than once in the references) --

From the Wilderness to Spottsylvania, Robert Stoddart Robertson, Cincinatti, 1884
The soldier started with a tightly packed knapsack, a blanket and overcoat closely rolled above, and a square of duck, known as a half-shelter tent, under the flap. Hanging somewhere about these you would see an iron sauce-pan, a coffee pot, and. other culinary utensils. All this we will call uneccessary baggage
Then there is the musket, weighing eleven pounds. Forty rounds of ammunition means about six pounds of lead, and we had sixty rounds. Add to these the haversack swelling with five days' rations, the bayonet, a tin cup and a canteen. This is the necessary baggage of the soldier, and in all, it is something one would prefer to have checked, rather than carry. As the warm Virginia sun rose, at the first halt knapsacks were unslung, and whatever could be best spared was thrown away. All along the hot and dusty road, something else would be thrown away, until finally the knapsack goes too, and the soldier is in light marching order, with only his necessary baggage, and a shelter tent or rubber blanket slung over his shoulder, and naught else, unless it be a needle case, a pipe and tobacco-pouch, a bible or a pack of cards, carefully stowed in some pocket or the haversack.

Another example of a blanket strapped to the top of the knapsack, in this case quite fortunately for the soldier who did it --

The Sixteenth Maine Regiment in the War of the Rebellion, Abner Ralph Small, Portland, 1886, p. 74
Before we had time to execute the order to unsling knapsacks, one man in my company was divested of his by a movement not found in any book of military tactics. A piece of shell struck his blanket which was closely rolled and strapped on the top of his knapsack, just behind the back of his neck, and the momentum of the missile was such that for a moment man and knapsack revolved around each other and then they parted company.

[Bill_Cross]

Schnapps, I'm not one to insist on my POV in the face of better evidence. Certainly these accounts are very compelling. But for the record, I never said you can't (or they didn't) carry their blankets on top of the pack. Just that there is a natural symmetry to the packing process, especially when one is not carrying all the $#%& listed in these accounts.

Perhaps some good will come out of this discussion, and it will enlighten someone on a way to sneak a cooler into camp on a campaigner march? If you just angle the straps so.... ;)

[Pvt Schnapps]

Dear Bill, friend, comrade, mentor and inventor of the monster nib-nazi now know as "Pvt Schnapps" -- please forgive my tone of irritability. It seems to be a side effect of overexposure to oak gall ink.

BTW, the CRRC also mentions a clerk carrying the company books in a haversack. Knowing the size of the company books, this would indicate a private purchase item large enough for a sixer and a couple of ice packs.

:)

[Bill_Cross]

Dear Bill, friend, comrade, mentor and inventor of the monster nib-nazi now know as "Pvt Schnapps" -- please forgive my tone of irritability. It seems to be a side effect of overexposure to oak gall ink.
I am flattered that you would credit me in that way, and deeply touched.

As The Bard might have said if he reenacted, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your regulations and CRRC."

Schnapps, you will always be my friend, even if I sometimes want to pour some of that oak gall ink down your throat. ;) By disputation we come to the truth.
BTW, the CRRC also mentions a clerk carrying the company books in a haversack. Knowing the size of the company books, this would indicate a private purchase item large enough for a sixer and a couple of ice packs. :)
Bill Rodman will be pleased to hear that. Next Neshaminny I will expect you to provide the beer.

[Mint Julep]

Jeez, you two! Get a room already!

[bob 125th nysvi]

While the greatcoat can be folded properly with its own sleeves and belt to secure it, imagine thousands of them tossed onto a wagon and coming undone?

The beauty of the double bag is that, once you put your blankie/shelter half/gum blankie in the strapped "bin," there's **** little room left in the bag for much of anything else. If you put your blanket or other covering in there, you will have no room for a shirt and personal items.

Putting something where the greatcoat is supposed to be mounted will, if the weight of the pack is not evenly-distributed, put strain on the wearer's shoulders.

There's an elegant simplicity to it all. Really. ;)

but that is just dead wrong.

I ALWAYS put my blanket and shelter half in the strapped 'bin'. One oilcloth goes between the bags and then in my outer bag I ROUTINELY get the following:

1 extra shirt
1 extra drawers
2 extra pairs of socks
1 night cap
1 small towel
2 small metal hooks
1 set of dominoes in a poke bag
1 small Altoids tin containing my emergency gun repair kit
1 small round Altoids tin with about 50 extra caps in it
About 10 feet of hemp rope (not twine ROPE)
2 Arsenal packs

And I am always two notches up on the outside straps. If I put in my wooden mallet and tent stakes (in a large poke bag) and a couple of extra arsenal packs or another shirt and socks I can still close up the pack properly.

And THEN my large oilcloth gets on top of the pack where the greatcoat goes.

And at 6'4" 235 everything I wear falls into the 'extra large' category. And I walk in and out in one trip, no cars to the company street for me! ;)

[Pvt Schnapps]

Sigh. For a brief period this thread had actually touched upon not what reenactors can cram into their packs and carry from the parking lot to their well-appointed vacation camps, but what real civil war officers wanted their soldiers to carry in the field, and what real civil war soldiers did carry in the field.

Please allow me to maintain, for just a little while longer, the fantasy that this still matters. Thank you.

[Bill_Cross]

Bob, I have PMed you about your interpretation of what I wrote.

[Silas]

Sigh. For a brief period this thread had actually touched upon not what reenactors can cram into their packs and carry from the parking lot to their well-appointed vacation camps, but what real civil war officers wanted their soldiers to carry in the field, and what real civil war soldiers did carry in the field.

ding, Ding, DING! We have a winner!

[bob 125th nysvi]

Sigh. For a brief period this thread had actually touched upon not what reenactors can cram into their packs and carry from the parking lot to their well-appointed vacation camps, but what real civil war officers wanted their soldiers to carry in the field, and what real civil war soldiers did carry in the field.

Please allow me to maintain, for just a little while longer, the fantasy that this still matters. Thank you.

but just WHAT on my list (except the gun repair kit) is not something an CW soldier might have carried?

And can you CATEGORICALLY tell me that CW soldiers did not carry extra shirts, or drawers or socks or night caps or towels or rope?

And can you CATEGORICALLY tell me that if a soldier wanted to carry extra shirts or socks that his officer wasn't going to let him carry it as long as it didn't interfere with what he was required to carry?

And I have NEVER actually been in a 'vacation camp' as an adult so don't get condescending about a subject of which you know nothing about, ME. Any time you want to walk over to where I'm sleeping and check out my shebang for 'contraband' you are welcome. Just if you do it I want you to be man enough to publically apologize on this board for making WRONG assumptions. Okay?

[crowley_greene]

. . . but what real civil war officers wanted their soldiers to carry in the field, and what real civil war soldiers did carry in the field.
Can someone refresh my memory here? It seems like it may have either been Company Aytch or Hardtack and Coffee where I read one light account where it was discovered that a soldier was carrying a small "library" of books in his pack. Of course, if my memory is correct that the account came from one of those two sources, it may be that a bit of exaggeration was involved. I just remember when I first read that account a few years back that I had difficulty picturing how some number of books could fit in a pack.

Murray Therrell

[Pvt Schnapps]

but just WHAT on my list (except the gun repair kit) is not something an CW soldier might have carried?

And can you CATEGORICALLY tell me that CW soldiers did not carry extra shirts, or drawers or socks or night caps or towels or rope?

And can you CATEGORICALLY tell me that if a soldier wanted to carry extra shirts or socks that his officer wasn't going to let him carry it as long as it didn't interfere with what he was required to carry?

And I have NEVER actually been in a 'vacation camp' as an adult so don't get condescending about a subject of which you know nothing about, ME. Any time you want to walk over to where I'm sleeping and check out my shebang for 'contraband' you are welcome. Just if you do it I want you to be man enough to publically apologize on this board for making WRONG assumptions. Okay?

Take it easy. The thread had taken a turn to posting information from original sources. You changed it back to the personal choices of reenactors. That may in fact have come closer to the original poster's question than my answers, but I hope I can be forgiven for regretting the regression.

If I forgot I wasn't on the AC, you over-reacted. I'll apologize when I find a general order respecting dominoes, and yes, when orders forbade more than a minimum amount of clothing, such as on Hunter's march, officers were expected to carry it out. Thomas Wentworth Higginson has a wonderful article in the Atlantic ("Volunteer and Regular Officers") in which he talks about the glory of trying to figure out which dirty pair of drummer's trowsers to throw out. But you look it up. I'm tired of doing your research for you.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Can someone refresh my memory here? It seems like it may have either been Company Aytch or Hardtack and Coffee where I read one light account where it was discovered that a soldier was carrying a small "library" of books in his pack. Of course, if my memory is correct that the account came from one of those two sources, it may be that a bit of exaggeration was involved. I just remember when I first read that account a few years back that I had difficulty picturing how some number of books could fit in a pack.

Murray Therrell

You'll find at least one heavy camper in my selection of period quotes, too -- the fellow in the 7th NY comes to mind (as well as the humorous description of the new soldier's load in Si Klegg -- it's a popular theme in writings about soldier's life). The orders referred to would never have been written if they didn't have an ill in mind that they wanted to correct, and the fact that orders were repeated over the course of the war indicates a certain amount of "load creep" even among veteran soldiers.

[Mint Julep]

Can someone refresh my memory here? It seems like it may have either been Company Aytch or Hardtack and Coffee where I read one light account where it was discovered that a soldier was carrying a small "library" of books in his pack. Of course, if my memory is correct that the account came from one of those two sources, it may be that a bit of exaggeration was involved. I just remember when I first read that account a few years back that I had difficulty picturing how some number of books could fit in a pack.

Murray Therrell

I've seen that story a couple of times and it is likely an embellishment. There is also some story about a fellow carefully packing a huge chunk of lard into his pack to use later and a prankster managed to swap it for a stone. I personally witnessed a reenactor carry a small log in his knapsack in anticipation of carving on it during the event. He never touched it except to unpack and repack it all weekend.

As for the number of books, keep in mind that many books were printed in smaller version to make them easy to carry in a pocket or bag. I suspect the soldier in the story had such a collection.

[crowley_greene]

keep in mind that many books were printed in smaller version to make them easy to carry in a pocket or bag.
Yes, perhaps like the dime novels of that time? I suppose that would be more doable. But I used my MB&S double bag last weekend -- and once I had packed blanket, drawers, shirt, a few toiletry items, poncho and shelter it was pretty well bulging.

Murray Therrell

[Mint Julep]

No, not like the dime novels. I mean hardcover books, only pocket-sized. Think about the size of the reprints of Hardee's or Kautz's books. I have seen early editions of Dickens in that size. I've got an 1854 Bible that is about the same size as my copy of Kautz "Customs of Service for Officers". Tissue thin paper, tiny print, but it is all there.

[Wagondog]

I guess I'll "wiegh in" if you'll pardon the pun.
I think the original question was simply how to pack a double bag. It was pretty open-ended as far as WHAT went into it.
I think the simple answer would be to do as the soldiers did, experiment, pack and repack until you found a combination that was practicle in its usage and comfortable to carry.. in other words not what I used to call ( in the modern Military a "Gear Bomb" that would shed peices every 1/4 of a mile and have the things you needed in the bottom.
Its been well documented that originally soldiers were overloaded by orders from superiors and by their own seeking of creature comfort. This is a problem that continues to this day. ( check out S.L.A. Marshall's The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation)
The rule of thumb ( According to Marshall that is) is that a soldier can be expected to be able to carry about 1/3 of his body wieght and fucntion at a normal pace. given an average wieght of about 150 pounds that would put the total wieght carried at 50. The Musket, ammo, Uniform, canteen, shoes and Haversack with rations is probaly going to easily take up 35 pounds...
An empty knapsack wieghs what? at least 4 pounds? so you are talking
Maybe 10-15 pounds,,,
In the end the Focus would have to be on the bare essentials, cover from the elements and sleeping gear.
So the First two chioces would be some type of Blanket for sleeping and raincover. the last pounds would be taken up by " luxury items" such as spare socks and a shirt, and perhaps a small pan or mucket, something to clean themselves with ( rag and soap) and maybe some reading materiel (letters papers etc)
Im sure there were some soldiers who could carry a lot more, but I am betting several carried a lot less.

[Pvt Schnapps]

I guess I'll "wiegh in" if you'll pardon the pun.
I think the original question was simply how to pack a double bag. It was pretty open-ended as far as WHAT went into it.
I think the simple answer would be to do as the soldiers did, experiment, pack and repack until you found a combination that was practicle in its usage and comfortable to carry.. in other words not what I used to call ( in the modern Military a "Gear Bomb" that would shed peices every 1/4 of a mile and have the things you needed in the bottom.
Its been well documented that originally soldiers were overloaded by orders from superiors and by their own seeking of creature comfort. This is a problem that continues to this day. ( check out S.L.A. Marshall's The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation)
The rule of thumb ( According to Marshall that is) is that a soldier can be expected to be able to carry about 1/3 of his body wieght and fucntion at a normal pace. given an average wieght of about 150 pounds that would put the total wieght carried at 50. The Musket, ammo, Uniform, canteen, shoes and Haversack with rations is probaly going to easily take up 35 pounds...
An empty knapsack wieghs what? at least 4 pounds? so you are talking
Maybe 10-15 pounds,,,
In the end the Focus would have to be on the bare essentials, cover from the elements and sleeping gear.
So the First two chioces would be some type of Blanket for sleeping and raincover. the last pounds would be taken up by " luxury items" such as spare socks and a shirt, and perhaps a small pan or mucket, something to clean themselves with ( rag and soap) and maybe some reading materiel (letters papers etc)
Im sure there were some soldiers who could carry a lot more, but I am betting several carried a lot less.


A lot of the preceding discussion revolved around examples of orders that dictated what soldiers would carry, and actual examples of how they packed that load. See my posts 7, 8, 11, and 17 on this thread. From post 7, covering Ingall's experiment with knapsack weight, you can calculate from the comparative weight of a knapsack with 5 or 10 days rations the weight of the knapsack itself, which was little more than a pound. (It's just the most awkward pound in the army.)

Spare socks and shirts weren't considered luxuries, but were covered by the orders and typically taken along. Dry shirts and socks are critical on a march of any length.

Small pans and muckets would probably have been thrown out by officers acting under the orders of Ingalls or Hunter. That doesn't make them wrong for all units at all times, but they would be considered luxuries compared to socks.

There's a lot of good, period information available. Some of it has already been posted on this thread.

[Wagondog]

The Luxury items were in quotations for a reason,,, sort of sarcasm,,, although it may have been ordered that they be carried the chances are that this fell along the wayside.
A prudent person would certainly want to have those items at hand, but when it came down to it the only thing that a soldier on an active campaign absolutely needed was his Musket, ammo, water and a few crackers.
Its a conundrum as old as time when it comes to Warfare,,,
" An Army Marches on its Stomach"
"Tactics wins battles,, Logistics win Wars"
"Travel light,, Freeze at Night"
"If you dont use it every day,, throw the F'ing thing Away"

Probably he best answer is to pack your gear according to the documentation for the time/ unit you are portraying.

A recently recruited and equipted Regt forming up and drilling in Pa in 61 would be a lot different than an Ohio Regt marching through the Carolinas in 65 with Uncle Billy.

[Irish Bill]

[QUOTE=Wagondog;127903]
I think the simple answer would be to do as the soldiers did, experiment, pack and repack until you found a combination that was practicle in its usage and comfortable to carry.. in other words not what I used to call ( in the modern Military a "Gear Bomb" that would shed peices every 1/4 of a mile and have the things you needed in the bottom.
QUOTE]

Thats what I did for my knapsack. Mine fully loaded does weigh about 32 lbs and i can march comfortably full gear 12 miles on very hilly terrain.

[Pvt Schnapps]

[QUOTE=Wagondog;127903]
I think the simple answer would be to do as the soldiers did, experiment, pack and repack until you found a combination that was practicle in its usage and comfortable to carry.. in other words not what I used to call ( in the modern Military a "Gear Bomb" that would shed peices every 1/4 of a mile and have the things you needed in the bottom.
QUOTE]

Thats what I did for my knapsack. Mine fully loaded does weigh about 32 lbs and i can march comfortably full gear 12 miles on very hilly terrain.

That's great. You're carrying twelve pounds more than a real civil war soldier and you don't have any food or ammo in there.

[Longbranch 1]

[QUOTE=Irish Bill;128234]

That's great. You're carrying twelve pounds more than a real civil war soldier and you don't have any food or ammo in there.

Maybe nit-picking a bit.
Rations in a knapsack?

Definitely not in any O.R.s I am familiar with. (;)

To quote the late, great,Steve Goodman;
" I'll be an Elvis Imitator "Till the Day I Die!"

Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26thNC

[Pvt Schnapps]

[QUOTE=Pvt Schnapps;128250]

Maybe nit-picking a bit.
Rations in a knapsack?

Definitely not in any O.R.s I am familiar with. (;)

To quote the late, great,Steve Goodman;
" I'll be an Elvis Imitator "Till the Day I Die!"

Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26thNC

See posts 7 and 8, also posts 11, 17, and 18. You'd be surprised what you can learn if you just read the threads you post on.

[Rob Weaver]

Just seconding Schnapps here: When the AoP left it's 1862 winter camps at Falmouth, Hooker attempted to reduce the wagon train by substituting a mule train. Part of the savings in packing was passed on to the soldiers who carried not only 60 rounds of extra ammunition in their packs but also several days rations that would not fit in their haversacks. Systemically, this attempt to lighten the baggage train didn't work and was discontinued. Not surprisingly, something like 20% of the AoP claimed to have "lost" their knapsacks during the operation.
Admiral Farragut's travel library is in the Naval Academy museum in Annapolis, should you want to look at an extant traveler's library. The books are palm-sized, about the size of a deck of cards, and very very thick - 2-21/2 inches or so. Those of us who are old enough might compare them to the "Big Little Books" or "Little Big Books" or whatever they were called of our childhoods. Farragut's are all established classics of the day - like the "Harvard Shelf of Books" crammed into a long box. I carry a newspaper from a date close (6-8 weeks earlier) than the supposed event date. I usually find enough reading to keep me occupied therein, plus a few jokes and chess problems I can work out in my head. If you insist on dragging books around in your pack, make sure it's an author you really, really like. I like Poe. A volume of Poe will give you some poetry, horror, science fiction and detective material. There's a bargain that's worth toting around for a few miles.

[Longbranch 1]

[QUOTE=Longbranch 1;128279]

See posts 7 and 8, also posts 11, 17, and 18. You'd be surprised what you can learn if you just read the threads you post on.

Sorry 'bout that.
Just had the initial "experiment" wording stuck in my head.
I defer, Sirs, to your citations.
Isn't sleep deprivation grand?

A small caveat:
As with anything else in our endeavour, the Who?, What?, Where?, When?, and Why? questions in a portrayal should be addressed.

Kindest Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26thNC

[Pvt Schnapps]

[QUOTE=Pvt Schnapps;128285]

Sorry 'bout that.
Just had the initial "experiment" wording stuck in my head.
I defer, Sirs, to your citations.
Isn't sleep deprivation grand?

A small caveat:
As with anything else in our endeavour, the Who?, What?, Where?, When?, and Why? questions in a potrayal should be addressed.

Kindest Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26thNC

You're absolutely right, and I hope I can claim sleep deprivation as an excuse for my snappishness, too -- sorry about that.

[Irish Bill]

[QUOTE=Irish Bill;128234]

That's great. You're carrying twelve pounds more than a real civil war soldier and you don't have any food or ammo in there.

I never said I did not carry food or ammo in there. I actually do. The reason why mine does weigh more is I carry the following:

-small fly I made myself for a shelter tent, with about 10 -15 feet of rope, 6 wooden stakes, and a hatchet/hammer.
-bedroll consisting of 2 blankets,ear plugs and oil cloth
-house wife and small bag I made myself at an reenactment for buttons
-grooming kit- soap, 2 huck towels, a tin each of toothe powder and foot powder,and a toothe brush and hair comb
-gun kit-borescraper, brush, and nipple wrench
- playing cards
- clothes- 2 pair of socks, nite cap, 2 undershirts, underbritches, and greatcoat when it is cold.
-tin mucket
-along with 6 arsenal packs and extra rations
You might ask yourself why all of that. Well for starters I dont have a pard to help with any tenting or cookware. I live in northwest Illinois and reenact in same along with Iowa Minnesota and Wisconsin and it can get quite cold at night(especially lately. I also cant get sick because I work in health care 3rd shift for full time and turn wrenches on the side during the day part time for a bus company. So missing work is out of the question for me. I am big, not fat(well a little bit) so my clothes are bigger than most.
I know I am not 100% accurate but at least I am trying. And thats more than what can be said about some reenactors I have met out here. In my own opinion its criticism like that that turns people away from this wonderful experience we call reenacting. You take the fun out of a hobby its no longer a hobby.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Well, since the original inquiry asked other reenactors how they packed their knapsacks, your response has as much right to be here as anyone else's. I claim no right to take away any of the enjoyment you get from the hobby and in fact I commend you for being able to carry all that over the distances you cite. It's more than I could manage.

That said, I hope you also found something of use and interest in the posts about what the army wanted its soldiers to carry, what the soldiers actually carried, and how they carried it, and feel inspired to experiment along those lines at some point. As you know, that's part of the fun, too.

[Irish Bill]

I do appologize if I have seemed a bit brash in my last post.
Yes I did read your posts along with the others and have found them to be very informative. I would not belong to this forum if it was not.
I did try once only having one blanket, oilcloth, toothebrush, extra ammo, and2 pair of socks.
Well I was wet and miserable and got a summer cold. I really came to an understanding of the crap soldiers can go through and they all have my highest respect. I now I am crazy but plan to someday do it again when I can go to a national.
I have yet to go to an event where weather cooperates. I do know they exist from stories of other reenactors. Luck of the Irish does not apply to me, I got ripped off on that deal:roll:.