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tompritchett
08-23-2006, 06:30 PM
A "lost" thread started by hillrich on Jul-24-03


hillrich Jul-24-03, 06:20 PM (EST)

"This Is What They Did . . ."

Hey Chums,

Just got back from celebrating my birthday yesterday by traveling to Antietam and on to G'burg. It was late in the day by the time I finished wandering around in the wool and chatting up the tourists so I set a spell up there by Ol' Bryan's homestead. As I was settin on the steps there, I noticed the back end of the feller up on the 111th NY monument (II Corps, 3rd Div., Willard's Bde.) across the road and something 'peared a bit on-usual to me.

In another post hereabouts, a prominent reenactor (whom I happen to admire) used the phrase, "this is what they did." I'm not sure I'm too settled using that phrase 'cause, there up on the pedestal, that feller representing the 111th NY was carrying his traps right down at the belt line, canteen on his left hip, haversack on his right and his cartridge box smack in the small of his back - on the belt.

Now, that may seem like nothin much to you but a feller down in McDowell a few months back told me to hitch up my canteen a bit to get it futher up under my arm and my haversack too. Said "this is what they did."

I'm wondering how the heck some folks know "what they did" when the evidence often goes against it. Here's a first rate statue for example showing the man hanging his traps right down low by the belt. Could it be that not everything went by the book like in the modern army or that the uniformity we've come to know and love in the military of today was not quite up to this standard in 1863?

I remember a few years ago somebody put the word out about "what they did" and had everybody steel woolin the blue off their Enfields. Now, all the Enfields I see has got the bluin right back on.

Or at the film shoot for Civil War Combat: Franklin when the young bucks thought the double quick was a flat out foot race for ten takes in a row. One of em tried tellin me that was "what they did" too.

Maybe time has come to stop frettin "what they did" and try to focus on what "they" thought about what "they" did. In that case, everybody'd have a right to represent the nearly infinite number of variations produced by the war pretty much in the lights God gave them. Might even be an interesting turn of events too.

Just my two cents. Like to get a little discussion goin here if you've a mind to.

Rich Hill
The I-Get-Real-Reflective-on-My-Birthday Mess

tompritchett
08-23-2006, 06:39 PM
Part I of the replies

* What they actually did..., billwatson, Aug-05-03, 09:24 AM, (19)
.o RE: What they actually did..., FWL, Aug-05-03, 08:02 PM, (21)
..+ NO..., billwatson, Aug-05-03, 08:53 PM, (22)
...* RE: This Is What They Did . . ., Marty, Aug-04-03, 01:19 PM, (17)
..o RE: This Is What They Did . . ., FWL, Aug-05-03, 08:49 AM, (18)
....+ RE: This Is What They Did . . ., Frenchie, Aug-05-03, 09:25 PM, (24)
* RE: This Is What They Did . . ., PvtBordonaro, Jul-29-03, 08:58 AM, (8)
..o Stock monuments, ephraim_zook, Jul-29-03, 03:05 PM, (9)
....+ RE: Stock monuments, KarinTimour, Aug-02-03, 11:21 PM, (15)
....+ RE: Stock monuments, Regular3, Aug-01-03, 08:46 PM, (14)
....+ RE: Stock monuments, Made in China, Jul-30-03, 00:40 AM, (10)
* RE: This Is What They Did . . ., FWL, Jul-24-03, 10:15 PM, (3)
* RE: This Is What They Did . . ., FWL, Jul-24-03, 10:02 PM, (2)
..o RE: This Is What They Did . . ., marine05, Aug-01-03, 08:17 AM, (11)
....+ RE: This Is What They Did . . ., FWL, Aug-01-03, 09:08 AM, (12)
......# RE: This Is What They Did . . ., marine05, Aug-01-03, 11:09 AM, (13)
* RE: This Is What They Did . . ., Frenchie, Aug-03-03, 02:18 PM, (16)
..o RE: This Is What They Did . . ., brooks7md, Aug-05-03, 02:11 PM, (20)
....+ RE: This Is What They Did . . ., Frenchie, Aug-05-03, 09:15 PM, (23)
...... # RE: This Is What They Did . . ., marine05, Aug-08-03, 02:54 PM, (25)
* RE: This Is What They Did . . ., tow116pvi, Jul-24-03, 07:29 PM, (1)
..o That's Exactly the Point . . ., hillrich, Jul-24-03, 11:03 PM, (4)
....+ RE: That's Exactly the Point . . ., tow116pvi, Jul-28-03, 07:13 AM, (7)
....+ RE: That's Exactly the Point . . ., Confed73, Jul-27-03, 02:16 AM, (5)
.......# Artistic license, Gary, Jul-28-03, 02:44 AM, (6)


billwatson Aug-05-03, 09:24 AM (EST)

19. "What they actually did..."
In response to message #0

LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-03 AT 09:26 AM (EST)

... is whatever worked for them, just as the modern vets contributing to this thread point out that they have done.

Generally speaking, a haversack that's too low becomes a problem when you doublequick -- it begins to beat you to death. It's also a problem going through brush -- there's too much strap available in a more exposed position on a low haversack, and it will snag, especially when you bend over to get under a branch or something and create slack.

Most reenactors, of course, only have a passing acquaintance with the doublequick and with going through brush, so the experience of these things is lost. Hold that thought, I'll come back to it.

What whoever it was should have said to you, Rich, is that when Captain Watson asks you to run/clinb uphill on Sunday morning through mountain laurel and little ugly rccks, you may find that your haversack is going to hold you back. Experience, of course, is a fine teacher. Once you've doublequicked through the brush, a bit of attention to things like straps and where your bayonet hangs doesn't seem out of order. As a bit of experimental archaaeology, it's not bad -- unless one assumes that our great grandparents were gormless idiots who didn't mind getting caught on every stob in Virginia every time they were shunted into a patch of scratch. "Dang, I'm caught again, Abner, why does this keep happenin"?"

It's not surprising we don't have written accounts from those guys about how they adjusted their kit. How many modern vets have written the folks back home about how they shifted their load around for comfort? So we've got a mixed record of photos and sketches. Some guys may never have made the adjustment -- dang. I picture a grinning jackanapes with a "Whut? Me?" look on his face. Some guys may have brand new haversacks. But others clearly did make the adjustment.

But what we've also got going here is a variation on the "why good drill matters" thread. What you are hearing, in part, is a message from someone (and I really don't know who you were talking to, for all I know it could have been me, the rain that weekend apparently reached my brain) who wanted you to look like his perception of a CW veteran -- someone who has had to go through brush at the doublequick. But he -- and I -- would also get a thrill if we all looked like Civil War living historians who ALSO doublequick through the brush and have adapted to the experience. It just kind of sets us apart in a visual way from the fellows who wear their kit adjusted for comfort sitting in a camp stool, ya know? Not really something to do with a specific impression -- undoubtedly there are times when we should all look like untested raw troops, and I'm looking forward to someday doing a Home Guard impression when I can use a flintlock and forget most of the drill. But sometimes it's important to carry off a visual impression of competency regardless of what year we're depicting or what year it actually is.

That is more answer than you probably wanted.

Bill Watson
Company I Mess
Potomac Legion


FWL Aug-05-03, 08:02 PM (EST)

21. "RE: What they actually did..."
In response to message #19

I picture a grinning jackanapes
>with a "Whut? Me?" look on his face. >

Jackanapes??? This is a little off topic but what's a jackanapes? Is that like a Jonah?? Is that a CW term should I incorporate it into my first person?

Frank Lilley
"Jackanapes Mess, Co.I"


billwatson Aug-05-03, 08:53 PM (EST)

22. "NO..."
In response to message #21

Do not incorporate it. It is grossly overrepresented in the hobby. ))))


Main Entry: jackŠaŠnapes
Pronunciation: 'ja-k&-"nAps
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Jack Napis, nickname for William de la Pole died 1450 duke of Suffolk
Date: 1526
1 : MONKEY, APE
2 a : an impudent or conceited fellow b : a saucy or mischievous child

Bill Watson
Company I Mess
Potomac Legion

tompritchett
08-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Part II of the replies


Marty Aug-04-03, 01:19 PM (EST)

17. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #0

I agree with marine05. When I am getting ready for a parade or a change-of-command ceremony, I will arrange my LBE according to the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure), even though it is not always the most convenient or comfortable. However, when I am going to the field, or a deployment, I arrange my LBE in a way that is both convenient and comfortable for me, as does everyone else in my unit. None of us looks exactly the same. I imagine the soldiers of the Civil War had the same attitude.


FWL Aug-05-03, 08:49 AM (EST)

18. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #17


>I arrange my LBE in a way that is both convenient and
>comfortable for me, as does everyone else in my unit. None
>of us looks exactly the same. I imagine the soldiers of the
>Civil War had the same attitude.
>
>
While I generally agree with this Marty the questions is how far can we adapt before we don't look like CW soldiers. where do we draw the bright line? For example I've be told that you must wear your haversack and canteen at the elbow and not dangling below the belt. While I agree they should not be below the belt, I prefer mine just above or at the belt. Why? I have long arms if the canteen and haversack are too high I find it difficult to swing them around to get at them while marching. That's my adaptation. For parade ground formations we have answers from pictures for what we should look like, but in the field we can only apply commonsense adaptations that will not go so far that it negate the impression, if we do that correctly will be "authentic". It's like proving a negative

I would be interested if anyone has first hand written accounts of how they wore and managed their equipment in the field.

Frank Lilley

ďWe have shared the incommunicable experience of war. We have felt, we still feel the passion of life to its topÖ.In our youth our hearts were touched by fireĒ

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Captain 20th Mass Vol.


Frenchie Aug-05-03, 09:25 PM (EST)

24. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #18

As far as I'm concerned, you're doing it right, adjusting things to suit yourself. Bill Watson is right, there ought to be more practical study of what works and what doesn't.

Guy "Frenchie" LaFrance
--
"We has met th' enemy, an' they is us." -- Pogo Possum

tompritchett
08-23-2006, 06:52 PM
Part III of the replies


PvtBordonaro Jul-29-03, 08:58 AM (EST)

8. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #0

Friends,
It's my understanding that the veterans paid for and approved the monuments that represent their regiment or battery at Gettysburg. That being the case I would think that they would make sure that the artist got most, if not all, of the details right. I think that a study of the soldiers portrayed on monuments at Gettysburg is not a bad way to help develop an impression of those soldiers. Of course, if you can find a photograph of a soldier from the unit you are portraying that would be even better.
-Joe Bordonaro
PS Happy Birthday, Rich!

Joe Bordonaro,


ephraim_zook Jul-29-03, 03:05 PM (EST)

9. "Stock monuments"
In response to message #8

This may not necessarily hold true for G'burg monuments, but certainly many town monuments were ordered from a selection of stock designs from a sculpture works, something along the lines of "Catalogue # 101: Union Soldier in greatcoat leaning on musket, 8' high. Pedastal extra." If the veterans were satisfied with the generic sculpture, that's what they got. By the way, the description above fits the 7th WV monument at Gettysburg -- greatcoat included!

"On a thousand small town New England greens,
the old white churches hold their air
of sparse, sincere rebellion; frayed flags
quilt the graveyards of the Grand Army of the Republic.

The stone statues of the abstract Union Soldier
grow slimmer and younger each year -
wasp-waisted, they doze over muskets
and muse through their sideburns..."

from Robert Lowell's poem "For the Union Dead"



Ron Myzie
Reg. Penna. Dept. Agr.


KarinTimour Aug-02-03, 11:21 PM (EST)

15. "RE: Stock monuments"
In response to message #9

Dear Ron,

You're absolutely correct -- Montgomery Ward and Company shipped many of these monuments in the post-war years to communities all over the country.

In addition, you sometimes see them in cemetaries -- you could send a CDV of a loved one in with your order and they would sculpt his face onto the statue. Not unusual to do this, especially for a memorial stone in a home-town cemetary or family burial plot for a son, father or grandson whose body was never recoverd, or which was buried too far away or was too expensive to reclaim immediately after the death. I read somewhere that there was a bit of a boom in headstones and memorials especially in the South in the early 1880s. By that time the family might have recovered a bit from the immediate economic and social upheaval of Reconstruction, and an aging mother or father's pining for a gravesite could be fulfilled, without risking destitution. At the same time this is when many of the Confederate markers and monuments were being put in place, and when you contrast the size and shape of those set in the 1870s and 1880s to those erected by the Northern states in the same period, the costs of the war are stark.

I remember touring Chicamauga with Julio a couple of years ago, and there are many places where the markers from either side are very close to each other. It's also a striking testimonial to the UDC and the UCV that at a time of such economic hardship, they were determinedly fundraising to make sure that these memorials were being put in place -- sometimes it took them 15 years to get the funds together.

Interestingly enough, the GAR was also using some of it's political clout to shake money out of Congress to help the Southern states with these memorials. I read something about this in July when I was there for the 140th ranger walks -- I think it's even mentioned in the NPS visitor's center map to the battlefield (or it might have been one of the guidebooks).

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Domestic Arts and Honorable Trades Society
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society


Regular3 Aug-01-03, 08:46 PM (EST)

14. "RE: Stock monuments"
In response to message #9

LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-03 AT 08:46 PM (EST)

It's been a while since I was in Columbia, but if I remember right the Confederate soldier on the lawn of the South Carolina State House is wearing a greatcoat as well ...


"the regulars always do well, and seldom get any credit, not belonging to any crowd of voters"

Darrell Cochran
Third U.S. Regular Infantry


Made in China Jul-30-03, 00:40 AM (EST)

10. "RE: Stock monuments"
In response to message #9

Dad,

Your post reminded me of that statue that we noticed in Monteray, VA... I don't know if any of you got a chance to visit McDowell's neighbour of Monteray. But if you have, you might have noticed the statue in front of what I assume is the town hall or county courthouse. Anyway, the statue was such a mess of odd equipment and clothing, that we couldn't figure out what war it memorialised, if any at all. It may have been a statue of a local Eagle Scout or something. It looked like the town ordered a blank statue and some component parts and assembled it themselves like a granite Mr Potato-Head. So, Richard, while the historical accuracy of monuments in Gettysburg may be better than that of those in the all-American town square, I wouldn't use them as a source for fine details on the subject matter.

PS: if anyone can offer information on the Monteray statue or correct my ignorance, feel free to do so...

Jeffrey Myzie
Stroudsburg, Penna

tompritchett
08-23-2006, 07:01 PM
Part IV of the replies


FWL Jul-24-03, 10:15 PM (EST)

3. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #0

Dr.Stankenhousen have you been out in the sun too long staring at statues?

Robert Lilley

PS: Happy Birthday from the "you ugly bastard mess"


FWL Jul-24-03, 10:02 PM (EST)

2. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #0


Dear Not So Mute one.

First happy birthday you must be all of 19.

The best source of what I like to rely on is the pictures. I think any soldier at anytime has so many variations on "what he did" it’s hard to figure out "what they did". As for statues it was quite an industry I wouldn’t necessarily rely on it, you know it's an artist's prerogative kind of thing to "take liberties with reality".

Some book I just read and I'm (paraphrasing) said “the boys were eagar for battle and moved their cartridges boxes around to the front for easy access and pulled their caps low just over their eyes".

Last weekend at an event I moved the cartridge box around to the front (like the book said) so it sat right on my right front hip next to the cap box. It was easy access as opposed to the parade ground perfect alignment on the side that I used to practice. They way I figure it if you need to survive, get it right to where you feel the most comfortable to access it, it might “save” your life. I do believe this was “what they did” i.e. put equipment in a position to save their life.

Frank Lilley

PS Stank Factor out there low or high!


marine05
Charter Member
484 posts Aug-01-03, 08:17 AM (EST)
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11. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #2

Frank was that in "On Many a Bloody Field, Four Years in the Iron Brigade"? I have read that passage recently too.

s/f

DJM

PVT
Bty F, 1st Penn. L. Art.
(AKA LtCol USMC)

"Nothing is more destructive than the charge of artillery on a crowd."
Napoleon Bonaparte

"Freedom has a flavor, for those that fight for it, that the protected will never know"


FWL Aug-01-03, 09:08 AM (EST)

12. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #11

>Frank was that in "On Many a Bloody Field, Four Years in the
>Iron Brigade"? I have read that passage recently too.
>
>s/f

Col.

It was in "Stillness at Appomatax" . I don't remember which Briagade/regiment he quoted but I believe it was after the Wilderness fight and the Union Army was so thrilled to be advancing south instead of pulling back. It was from a first person account. I'll look it up.

As a relatively new reenactor, it was a civil war moment for me to have just read this passage, then the next weekend remembering this passage just before going into a battle, pulling the box around to the front, instead of leaving it on the hip like the parade ground officers directed me to. I recall I was able to get the rounds out allot faster.

It seemed natural. It was also special because no reenenactor NCO or Officer told me to do this, I did it based on essentially a first person account. Small things like this make this hobby special.


Frank Lilley
20th Mass Vol.

“We have shared the incommunicable experience of war. We have felt, we still feel the passion of life to its top….In our youth our hearts were touched by fire”

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Captain 20th Mass Vol.


marine05 Aug-01-03, 11:09 AM (EST)

13. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #12

Great, thanks. The authors quote from the same sources so often that I should not be surprised to see the same things in different books. On the matter of uniformity in combat I have to relate to today's soldiers and Marines. We are all issued the same gear, for Marines, LBE (load bearing equipment), canteens, first aid kit, field protective mask, magazines and two pouches, e-tool, cartridge belt, etc. Also each one of us is supposed to wear the gear in pretty much the same fashion. However as you gaze upon troops in the field you see untold variations on placement of equipment. Some wear canteens high on their waist (I don't as it gets in the way of my pack), some wear them on the sides of their hips, vice the back (again I don't as they get in the way of a good arm swing); magazine pouches in the front on both sides of the cartridge belt clasp, you also see both on one side. Much depends on the comfort of the wearer. There is nothing worse than something chaffing your skin for miles. Unfortunately most reenactors do not march for any distance, seldom do we march longer than the short distance from the encampment to battle site, not much time for gear to chaff and make a raw sore.

So the point is, the monument could have been right, it could have been artistic license or the result of the aging memory of the consultant, but not all personnel wear their gear in the same manner, so "This is what they did..." is a wide open statement, sort of in the genre of "never" or "always".

Sorry, just rambling now.

s/f

DJM

PVT
Bty F, 1st Penn. L. Art.
(AKA LtCol USMC)

"Nothing is more destructive than the charge of artillery on a crowd."
Napoleon Bonaparte

"Freedom has a flavor, for those that fight for it, that the protected will never know"


Frenchie Aug-03-03, 02:18 PM (EST)

16. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #13

I doubt there's a veteran who had to carry combat gear more than a half a mile who'd not agree with the notion that things get arranged for the most comfort, convenience, and safety in mind (not necessarily in that order).

John Hersey wrote in Guadalcanal Diary that the marines he followed into the jungle were not uniform at all in the details, but looked as different one from another as "a bunch of pirates". One at least had a non-issued weapon, a large screwdriver, for use "if the Japs get too close to shoot." When Hersey asked him where he'd gotten it, the marine grinned and said he'd just happened to find it on his person.

Then there's the old military axiom, "No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection."

Guy "Frenchie" LaFrance
--
"We has met th' enemy, an' they is us." -- Pogo Possum


brooks7md Aug-05-03, 02:11 PM (EST)

20. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #16

Wasn't that Richard Tregaskis?

Patrick


Frenchie Aug-05-03, 09:15 PM (EST)

23. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #20

You're absolutely right, Tregaskis wrote Guadalcanal Diary. Hersey wrote A Bell for Adano and Hiroshima. After all these years, I managed to get them mixed up.

I was seriously into the War in the Pacific (1941 to 1945) in junior high, and read everything I could get about it. Anyone else read anything by Robb White? Silent Ship, Silent Sea, The Frogmen, and Up Periscope are the ones I remember.

Thanks for the correction.

Guy "Frenchie" LaFrance
--
"We has met th' enemy, an' they is us." -- Pogo Possum


marine05 Aug-08-03, 02:54 PM (EST)

25. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #23

Combat soldiers/Marines tend to wear what they can get away with, uniformity is for the parade ground and garrison.

Sir, you are absolutely correct

S/F

PVT
Bty F, 1st Penn. L. Art.
(AKA LtCol USMC)

"Nothing is more destructive than the charge of artillery on a crowd."
Napoleon Bonaparte

"Freedom has a flavor, for those that fight for it, that the protected will never know"

tompritchett
08-23-2006, 07:09 PM
Part V of replies


tow116pvi Jul-24-03, 07:29 PM (EST)

1. "RE: This Is What They Did . . ."
In response to message #0

It's a statue! I guess you didn't notice the statue's with WW 1 equipment, Indian war equipment, trap door Springfields and the ilk. That stuff isn't right either!

Dave T.
Vice President
Co K 83d PV
www.83dpvi.org
Potomac Legion


"He who rejects change is the archetect of decay. the only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery." Harold Wilson


hillrich Jul-24-03, 11:03 PM (EST)

4. "That's Exactly the Point . . ."
In response to message #1

. . . if the vets who fought on those fields didn't mind what the statue depicted (and I have my doubts that they didn't), who are we to be so scrupulous? My guess is it has more to do with the inclination some modern folks have of spouting off what they know and claiming to represent an entire genre.

The 111th NY statue, by the way, does not appear to consist of a trapdoor Springfield, Indian War accoutrements or any other item referred to.

Rich Hill
"All history is testimony. All testimony is suspect."


tow116pvi Jul-28-03, 07:13 AM (EST)

7. "RE: That's Exactly the Point . . ."
In response to message #4

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer the acrouments and weapon on that particular statue were incorrect. You can however find those things around the battlefield and other battlefields in the US. What is important to realize is the artists who made the statues weren't soldiers and often took "liberties" with history. The other thing of interest on the field is the correct or incorrect placemant of the monuments on the field. But, that's another topic for discussion all together.

Dave T.
Vice President
Co K 83d PV


Confed73 Jul-27-03, 02:16 AM (EST)

5. "RE: That's Exactly the Point . . ."
In response to message #4

>. . . if the vets who fought on those fields didn't mind
>what the statue depicted (and I have my doubts that they
>didn't), who are we to be so scrupulous?

Well, more than likely the vets were just darn happy to have a monument erected in their honor. WE're here to accurately portray the civil war soldier, or at least that's why I do it.

>The 111th NY statue, by the way, does not appear to consist
>of a trapdoor Springfield, Indian War accoutrements or any
>other item referred to.

I believe he was referring to all Civil War statues in general. Bear in mind that most statues were erected many years after the war. the artists who sculpted them were given many liberties, and many of them, just like non reenactors today, have a vague image in their head of what the soldiers realistically looked like. So they sculpted the figures best they could with many occasions having the incorrect period firearms and accoutrements which were incorrect for the period.
A good example of statues not "telling the complete truth", look at the famous Stonewall Jackson statue at Manassas. Now we all know, as well as the sculpture knew, that he was not as muscular as he is portrayed. That's artist liberty. We should not look at this statue adn for the next Ron Maxwell film try to fill the casting of Jackson with Arnold Swartzenegger.
Photos and period sketches by artists in the field are the best resources!


Gary Jul-28-03, 02:44 AM (EST)

6. "Artistic license"
In response to message #5

Artistic license - is a dangerous thing. Sometimes it's valuable to historians (for instant, we know what the mallet looked like that Baker originally issued with his rifles) and at other times, must be approached with askance.

bob 125th nysvi
08-27-2006, 10:22 AM
that I think points out one thing.

There was a "manual way" and then there was what the combat soldier did it in the field to make it work for him.

If a cartridge box above the butt worked for a soldier and it didn't impede his rate of fire I'm fairly sure the officer didn't give a hoot.

Now all soldiers learned the "maunal way" because that's what Drill Instructors do. They teach everybody the Army way of doing things. Even if it was cumbersome the soldiers stuck with it until the DI was finished with them because they didn't want a hassle.

Then they stayed with it because that's what they were taught to do. And many stayed with it through out their careers because it wasn't an issue.

But once in the field, if it was an issue they modified it until it suited them and worked to their commanders satisfaction.

Want a modern example of how far the "manual" gets bent just look at pictures of the Veitnam War and tell me the way those guys were dressed and equipped was "reg".

Thanks

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY