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ThumbStall
08-23-2006, 07:55 AM
Newbie questions:

To my understanding, both Type I and Type II Federal forage caps were common throughout the war, but what was the difference betweent the two types?

Which do you wear and why?

Bart73
08-23-2006, 08:15 AM
this is what i found on skilletlicker's site:

Type I" disc is 5 1/4; "Type II" disc is 5 3/4. The term Type I and II is a reenactorism. Contract hats, like fatigue blouse etc., were done by a contractor, M&G for example or Geo. Hoff of Philadelphia.
regards,
Bart

Davis Wright
08-23-2006, 08:18 AM
From my understanding, "Type I" and "Type II" were created by reenactors in order to describe differences in forage caps among various contractors and subcontractors (i.e. Geo. Hoff, L.J.&I., etc.) To specifically answer your question, the "Type I" forage cap has a smaller disk than the "Type II" variant. The actual measurements escape me at the present. I am sure there are others out there that can provide a more detailed description of differences, but that should get you started.

Personally, I own an L.J. & I. Phillips contract version with a smaller disk -- it would be considered a Type I.

Trooper Graham
08-23-2006, 08:26 AM
I thought the shape of the bill had something to do with it? Rounded verses kepi style cut front.

TG

iron_schweick90
08-23-2006, 09:29 AM
yah i got a type 1 from nick sekela and it has a smaller crown and a more rounded bill. i beleive that the type 2 has a more square cut bill. i may have the numbers mixed up so correct me if im wrong

Trooper Graham
08-23-2006, 11:02 AM
yah i got a type 1 from nick sekela and it has a smaller crown and a more rounded bill. i beleive that the type 2 has a more square cut bill. i may have the numbers mixed up so correct me if im wrong

I have a 5 3/4 crown and a rounded bill which I understand to be type 1.

Rob
08-23-2006, 11:51 AM
This appeared in the "old" forum way back when, submitted by Mr Sekala, I believe. I offer it for your perusal.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/rlg118/ForageCapTypes.jpg

ThumbStall
08-23-2006, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the great responses. Think I'll be getting me a Type II. I like the look of that squared brim. :D

westcoastcampaigner
08-23-2006, 05:45 PM
Thanks for the great responses. Think I'll be getting me a Type II. I like the look of that squared brim. :D


Dear Sir,

Before you go buying for simply the reason stated above, do your research. Research as many photographs as you can find and see what you can see. Many reenactors buy a Type 2 simply because they have a square brim and larger disk which in turn makes for a smarter looking cap. I was of that same mind set until about a year ago when I started looking at photographs and found that the Type 1 cap outnumbered the Type 2 cap 2 to 1. You should always ask yourself "am I buying this because it looks cool or because it is historically correct" before buying a new piece of gear. It is my personal opinion that the Type 1 forage cap is one of the most underrepresented items used by reenactors today. I'm not trying to lecture you on this but research is key in making a purchase such as this due to the fact that a good forage cap is probably the most important not to mention most visible items of your kit. My advise to you, if your budget allows, is to get both styles and wear them accordingly based on your research. Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer

P.S. Greg Starbuck, Joel Bohy, Nick Sekela, and Chris Semanick are your best makers of caps. You can't go wrong with any of them.

Rob
08-24-2006, 01:10 AM
I bought a Type "Two" from the Skillet Licker a year and a half ago. The crown is large, but the brim is smaller than one would expect, and somewhat curved, similar to a "One". Does it represent a hybrid? Or a contractor variation? Who cares? After wearing it in all kinds of weather, it doesn't look much like either one anymore.

NJ Sekela
08-24-2006, 04:55 AM
Mr. Griffiths:

I don't quite follow your point, but if you purchased hats produced by me by the retailer you mentioned, then I would point out that they were made from patterns of two original Bannerman hats that were taken apart in the 1960's.

I arm, &c,

NJ Sekela,
Manf'r.
N. Jers'y.

http://www.njsekela.com
http://www.ejtsutler.com
http://www.carterandjasper.com

Rob
08-24-2006, 02:10 PM
Mr Sekala,

I asked about this at the time, but never got an answer. The crown measures 5 3/4" but the brim is definitely not square - it looks like the "Type 1" brim in the picture.

Also, the cap is marked as a size 7 but is really an 8.

I'll bet the same thing happened back then, as well.

ThumbStall
08-24-2006, 03:30 PM
Dear Sir,

Before you go buying for simply the reason stated above, do your research. Research as many photographs as you can find and see what you can see. Many reenactors buy a Type 2 simply because they have a square brim and larger disk which in turn makes for a smarter looking cap. I was of that same mind set until about a year ago when I started looking at photographs and found that the Type 1 cap outnumbered the Type 2 cap 2 to 1. You should always ask yourself "am I buying this because it looks cool or because it is historically correct" before buying a new piece of gear. It is my personal opinion that the Type 1 forage cap is one of the most underrepresented items used by reenactors today. I'm not trying to lecture you on this but research is key in making a purchase such as this due to the fact that a good forage cap is probably the most important not to mention most visible items of your kit. My advise to you, if your budget allows, is to get both styles and wear them accordingly based on your research. Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Josh SawyerThe guidelines I'm looking at (and they are from a very reputable, highly respected, campaigner unit) call for either Type I or II, buyer's choice. I'm can do the research, but I'm not going to re-invent the wheel. I got a PM from someone else that just told me that Type II is perfectly acceptable and that the photographs of the era can not be looked upon as the sole avenue of research and that determination of what is and whay is not over or or under-represented is very subjective.


P.S. Greg Starbuck, Joel Bohy, Nick Sekela, and Chris Semanick are your best makers of caps. You can't go wrong with any of them.[/
What about Dirty Billy? Does he make the caps or is he just the retailer for someone else?

NJ Sekela
08-24-2006, 09:00 PM
Mr. Griffiths:

Without even retracing the steps, I will simply state that a lack of response is unacceptable. What address did you contact?

If you can send me either a digital pic or scan of the visor I will sort this out.

NJS

westcoastcampaigner
08-24-2006, 11:28 PM
The guidelines I'm looking at (and they are from a very reputable, highly respected, campaigner unit) call for either Type I or II, buyer's choice. I'm can do the research, but I'm not going to re-invent the wheel. I got a PM from someone else that just told me that Type II is perfectly acceptable and that the photographs of the era can not be looked upon as the sole avenue of research and that determination of what is and whay is not over or or under-represented is very subjective.


What about Dirty Billy? Does he make the caps or is he just the retailer for someone else?

All I can say is that if you read the "official" quartermaster specs for the 1858 forage cap (from 1858 until 1872 when the army went back to the kepi or chasseur style cap) you will see that they call for "a visor of stiff glazed leather, best quality, black above and green below, in the form of a cresent, the outer curved edge 13 inches long, and the interior edge 9 inches long, 2 inches wide in the middle, to be strongly sewed on the front of the base of the cap". These specifications clearly describe a cap that resembles what the ACW reenacting community has termed a "Type I" This along with the 2:1 photographic evidence is a valid argument to the Type I vs. Type II in reenacting debate. This is not to say that caps with flat visors are unacceptable. There were many manufacturers of forage caps during the war, both contracted by the government and private purchase, who mixed things up a bit and produced variant products i.e. your flat visors and larger pasteboard, etc.

I believe you missed my whole point in all of this which was simply to research a product before you buy it. I was not saying don't buy a Type II cap, in fact what I believe I said was to buy both and use them as you see fit based on your research. You are doing yourself a disservice and falling into the trap of creating a "cookie cutter" impression by simply buying a Type II cap because you like the way it looks. Just my $0.02. When purchasing an item where there are different variations, you cannot go by a reputable units "guidelines". When a unit was issued clothing and equipment during the ACW there were no guidelines. Sure there were Quartermaster Specifications but if a unit was in desperate need of new uniforms do you think it's commander would reject uniforms that were not quite on par with government specs and send them back? No, they would have worn what was sent to them and be glad to have it...Type I and Type II's alike (if that terminology had been used back then of course). Determining what is and what is not over and under represented in this hobby is not subjective at all if you go to an event (mainstream or hardcore) look at what everyone is wearing and then go back and look at what is in museums, photographs, relic shops, private collections, etc. and do your research. When is the last time you saw a guy wearing a Schuylkill Arsenal infantry jacket rather than your typical four button fatigue blouse or frock coat? And yet they were issued by the thousands and there are quartermaster records and photographic evidence to prove this. I could go on with many more examples to prove my point but somehow I feel it would be like trying to lead a dead horse to water.

Good luck in purchasing a forage cap no matter the type. My apologies if at any point in this post I seemed harsh, this was not my intent.

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer

P.S. Dirty Billy is a maker of caps however I am not a fan of his work and that is all I will say at this point as I feel it is not my place to advertise or discredit a vendors products. I only mentioned those other vendors in my first post to get you going in the right direction. Ask around and then make an informed decision based on what other people say.