The Salt River Rifles - GA, AL, TN, FL

[Jim of the SRR]

The Salt River Rifles is an progressive, campaigner group for reenactors from GA, TN, AL and FL. We are a member unit in SCAR (SE Coalition of Authentic Reenactors). We are a campaigner group that ACTUALLY attends EBUFU, c/p/h events as well as quality adjuncts and living histories. You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend. Don't be fooled by imitations!

Check out the Salt River Rifles at www.geocities.com/saltriverrifles

and our other like-minded groups at:

www.geocities.com/scar_civilwar

which is soon moving to

www.scarreenactors.com

Regards,
Jim Butler

[BMI-1863]

You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend. Don't be fooled by imitations!
With all due respect sir, I wasn't aware that "one" individual, or unit, was responsible for declaring who is or is not a campaigner or progressive unit? How do YOU know other groups or units aren't the same? Honestly, I'm pretty darn proud of my unit. We have done lots of research, and base our portrayals upon that research (backed up by historical fact or evidence). And, until YOU can disprove such, we will continue to be "progressive" in our nature sir, regardless if WE choose to attend one of YOUR c/p/h or EBUFU events. The way I see it (and I'm sure others too) is ONE does not have to be invited by some "want to be elites" to a private, exclusive event to consider themselves "progressive" in nature.

Hmmm, let's see what old Mr. Websters says about "progressive":

a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c: of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
I don't see where it says I have to get permission from someone to be considered as such???

[southern confederate]

WOW ! With this attitude , let me know how this turns out ! To me I think this is the problem today , instead of reenacting to honor the men on both sides , it has seemed to have drifted into the old high school "lets judge others becuase they are not wearing name brands" thing of sorts . Really , I hope you do well , (BUT) this seems like the wrong way to make the hobby grow .

[TheQM]

With all due respect sir, I wasn't aware that "one" individual, or unit, was responsible for declaring who is or is not a campaigner or progressive unit?

Excuse me, but Jim Butler and the Salt River Rifles are anything but elitist. Heck, they've allowed me to fall in with them!

[BMI-1863]

Excuse me, but Jim Butler and the Salt River Rifles are anything but elitist. Heck, they've allowed me to fall in with them!
No sir, I never said the SRR or Jim Butler were "elitist". My statement stated "want to be elites".

Define "elitism":

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.

a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

[MD_Independent26]

Jim knows his business. If I was in the south east, the SRR would probably be my home. Great attitude. True campaigners(and no, camping without tents is not campaigning). Great kits. And on my list of top ten quality units in our country. Definately a good place for someone wanting to recreate history accurately. Billy Birney Columbia Rifles

[MD_Independent26]

Mr. Stoltz. The SRR is ENTITLED to respect. Why? They've earned it through hard campaigning and following as closely to the steps of our ancestors as safety will permit. It is not a mere perception that they are superior to many other units IF the historical record is the standard we are judging them by. It is a solid fact. Welcome to the forum. I hope that you learn that the cut, slash, and run manner of posting here doesn't work well. The SRR and Jim Butler have good attitudes. That's more than I can say about you or Mr. Willis judging by your posts. Bill Birney

[Jim of the SRR]

With all due respect sir, I wasn't aware that "one" individual, or unit, was responsible for declaring who is or is not a campaigner or progressive unit? How do YOU know other groups or units aren't the same? Honestly, I'm pretty darn proud of my unit. We have done lots of research, and base our portrayals upon that research (backed up by historical fact or evidence). And, until YOU can disprove such, we will continue to be "progressive" in our nature sir, regardless if WE choose to attend one of YOUR c/p/h or EBUFU events. The way I see it (and I'm sure others too) is ONE does not have to be invited by some "want to be elites" to a private, exclusive event to consider themselves "progressive" in nature.

Hmmm, let's see what old Mr. Websters says about "progressive":

a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c: of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
I don't see where it says I have to get permission from someone to be considered as such???

You are making MANY assumptions from my post. First, I NEVER singled out ANY units and said they were NOT progressive. Your group may be great, I don't even know your group. In the same vain, every group I have met claims to be "progressive", or "Authentic" or "campaigner' and MAY not be.
If you are a bowling team and you are great bowlers, but you are playing baseball while the rest of us are at the bowling alley, what difference does it make anyways? Lots of folks saying they are great bowlers (and they may be), but they are leading their group to the baseball field.
This post DID NOT insult anyone or any group and if you are feeling defensive then that is your issue.
Your post shoudl be pulled for calling us 'elites'. You SIR do NOT know our group and until you disprove your 'elitist' accusation we will continue to call ourselves c/p/h.

Regards,
Jim Butler
How can you comment on bowling when you never leave the baseball fields?

[Jim of the SRR]

WOW ! With this attitude , let me know how this turns out ! To me I think this is the problem today , instead of reenacting to honor the men on both sides , it has seemed to have drifted into the old high school "lets judge others becuase they are not wearing name brands" thing of sorts . Really , I hope you do well , (BUT) this seems like the wrong way to make the hobby grow .

Which hobby?

Jim Butler

[Craig L Barry]

Oh here we go again...please consider a couple things...

Jim Butler is entitled to be proud of the Salt River Rifles and the merits of their high level of commitment to authenticity, and he is entitled to express his own opinions about that. PERIOD. Jim is an experienced participant that likes campaign type events. As far as setting standards, judging others or their choice of events, issuing proclamations, etc. All one can say for certain is that there is no titular head of the hobby, and we don't want to appoint one. Obviously, Jim Butler identifies quite strongly on a personal level with the mission of his group, which is suggested by his screen name "Jim of the SRR" not Jim the Standard Bearer, Jim Keeper of the Flame or even just plain ol' Jim Butler. This is not the point.

What is getting lost here is the point...which is that all Jim Butler is trying to do is make an announcement offering to be included in his reenactment group, and explain what sorts of activities they most enjoy doing, so you know what to expect if you decide to come out with them. The battle with authenticity is a personal one, and nobody sets the standards for you but you. By making a recruiting announcement, Jim is not trying to put anybody down, nor is he trying to be an elitist. As I read it, he is trying to communicate what his Salt River Rifles are about as far as events. If he goes about that with a little chest thumping and you don't like that, then you might not enjoy the rest of the weekend with them either. This seems to have gotten lost when Jim went beyond that and offered his opinon (somewhat sensibly) that to call yourself a campaigner, you ought to try to campaign it once in a while.

Jim is just sounding reveille. And if you are currently on sabbatical, maybe come off before you end up selling all your gear for fire sale prices. Participants should not be labeled progressive, c/p/h, etc, that is just the events they attend.

[BMI-1863]

Mr. Butler (and all),
Please know, I am not trying to impune upon your honor, nor the honor of the SRR. However, it seems that, when "other" groups or units deem themselves "progressive" in nature, words are exchanged disputing such claims. Which is what brought about my response to your initial posting and, the comment you made:

You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend.
Now, my total concern with your views/attitude towards this hobby as a whole has been brought about by another comment you posted, in reply to my response:

Your group may be great, I don't even know your group.
That's a conflict with your initial posting comment (i.e. referenced above). Did you, or did you not say, "You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend."

In the same vain, every group I have met claims to be "progressive", or "Authentic" or "campaigner' and MAY not be.
Hmmm, sounds very familiar to "you're not progressive unless I/we say you are".

Your post shoudl be pulled for calling us 'elites'. You SIR do NOT know our group and until you disprove your 'elitist' accusation we will continue to call ourselves c/p/h.
Your comments alone should not have been allowed. Knowing full well, they would be aimed at "some". This, you cannot dispute. Take a look at your recent bout with Chad Green and Western Federal Blues.



Oh here we go again...please consider a couple things...
Mr. Barry,
My intention is not to bring into question the validity of Mr. Butler's attempts at recruiting for his group. My intention comes from the statement he makes regarding "who can or cannot call themselves progressive or campaigner." I too, am experienced (I have been doing this for almost 30 years). But, time in this hobby does not make one an expert. The last of the experts died many years ago. the only hope we have is, to preserve their honor through the most accurate portrayal we can. This, in no way, should exclude ANYONE from participating in this hobby nor, from ANYONE deeming themsleves as progressive or campaigner. I have never seen any law, rule or regulation stating I have to attend any particular event to consider myself anything.

OK, you made this statement:

This seems to have gotten lost when Jim went beyond that and offered his opinon (somewhat sensibly) that to call yourself a campaigner, you ought to try to campaign it once in a while.
Well, let's take a look back at his statement:

You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend.
That's not an opinion, that's a blatant slam. And you expect one to not take offense to that?

Mr. Stoltz. The SRR is ENTITLED to respect. Why? They've earned it through hard campaigning and following as closely to the steps of our ancestors as safety will permit. It is not a mere perception that they are superior to many other units IF the historical record is the standard we are judging them by. It is a solid fact. Welcome to the forum. I hope that you learn that the cut, slash, and run manner of posting here doesn't work well. The SRR and Jim Butler have good attitudes. That's more than I can say about you or Mr. Willis judging by your posts. Bill Birney
Ok, I can see, somewhat, your point here. But, there again, revert back to the comment Mr. Butler makes. He blatantly stated: "You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend." It is a mere perception when others are not able to call themselves progressive in nature or, campaigner, etc. just because of a certain few. This is why I do not seek any kind of membership over on the AC forum. I do not want to be subjected to ANYONE's personal views or opinions. I will only answer to historical fact or evdience. And yes, I have been to c/p/h events where, rules and standards are lax, at best. Let's consider this, what do you call hanging out by one's car, downing a few cold ones? I don't think that took place back in the 1860's??

[Julius]

So what are people getting their feelings hurt over. Jim just pimping his group. Whats the big deal. If you don't like him or his group don't read or respond to his post. It didn't read to me to be a personal attack on anyone in particular.
The guilty scream the loudest.

[BMI-1863]

So what are people getting their feelings hurt over. Jim just pimping his group. Whats the big deal. If you don't like him or his group don't read or respond to his post. It didn't read to me to be a personal attack on anyone in particular.
The guilty scream the loudest.
Just as Mr. Butler did towards Mr. Chad Green and his Western Federal Blues???

[fedpard24]

I didn't see anyone singled out in Jim's original message. Why do some take such offense? Guilty conscience? Why does Mr. Green need to be defended by everyone? Jim's post had nothing to do with any single group. Get over it or just don't read any futher posts by Mr. Butler.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Ummm...what does any of this have to do with the Recruitment Post made by Jim??

It's a fact that you cannot be a campaigner until you do campaigner type events...I don't believe Jim ever even mentioned that you have to attend 'his-events' just that you have to attend campaigner events...and he cited a few examples of types of events the SRR participate in.

Come on people...

Paul B.

[PMB1861]

Just as Mr. Butler did towards Mr. Chad Green and his Western Federal Blues???

Methinks I see where the venom comes from in that statement...

[fedpard24]

A-men. Very well said Sr.


Ummm...what does any of this have to do with the Recruitment Post made by Jim??

It's a fact that you cannot be a campaigner until you do campaigner type events...I don't believe Jim ever even mentioned that you have to attend 'his-events' just that you have to attend campaigner events...and he cited a few examples of types of events the SRR participate in.

Come on people...

Paul B.

[Julius]

Just as Mr. Butler did towards Mr. Chad Green and his Western Federal Blues???


I see.
just waiting for a chance to hamstring a guy. I gottcha.


Again.If you dont like him Dont read or respond to his postings.

[BMI-1863]

I see.
just waiting for a chance to hamstring a guy. I gottcha.


Again.If you dont like him Dont read or respond to his postings.
Hi Russ,
I was just using that as an example. It seems that, Mr. Green and his group want to raise the bar, and that's fine. Its not a matter of liking someone, its being fair in a hobby that "everyone" owns.

So, what makes me question his original intent is, the comment(s) Mr. Butler made (i.e. "You can't truly say you are a campaigner, progressive unit unless you actually support and attend at least a few c/p/h, EBUFU events in addition to any other events you may attend"). This is why "we" have chosen not to join any kind of an umbrella group. Its not hurt feelings. It me questioning how one decides which units/groups are classified.

[PMB1861]

By the way Jim... You forgot one of your members lives in South Carolina.

[Mint Julep]

With all due respect sir, I wasn't aware that "one" individual, or unit, was responsible for declaring who is or is not a campaigner or progressive unit? How do YOU know other groups or units aren't the same? Honestly, I'm pretty darn proud of my unit. We have done lots of research, and base our portrayals upon that research (backed up by historical fact or evidence). And, until YOU can disprove such, we will continue to be "progressive" in our nature sir, regardless if WE choose to attend one of YOUR c/p/h or EBUFU events. The way I see it (and I'm sure others too) is ONE does not have to be invited by some "want to be elites" to a private, exclusive event to consider themselves "progressive" in nature.

Hmmm, let's see what old Mr. Websters says about "progressive":

a: of, relating to, or characterized by progress b: making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities c: of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression
I don't see where it says I have to get permission from someone to be considered as such???

Hey John Stoltz,

Who put you in charge of the Bureau of Military Information (recreated or not)? Certainly you have grabbed a title of authority to make yourself seem important! Talk about your elite wannabees!!!

Frankly, I think you are a troll trying to make Jim look bad because he banged up against Chad and the Blues in a few posts.

However, if you will be objective for a moment ... c'mon, give it the old college try ... you might see that many units across the country are starting to get dings in their armor for similar reasons. Why? Because so many people and units today describe themselves as campaigners, progressives, etc., yet do not have any real ties to that end of the hobby. They are really mainstreamers trying to be big fish in a small pond, to impress others. And now the cph guys are starting to point out these units. It isn't just the Blues getting a finger pointed at them.

I happen to agree with Jim that the WFB is a mainstream organization. It attends mainstream events. Its predecessor, the AoP, was a mainstream organization. It was the best game in town for a mainstream event, but mainstream nonetheless. I'm sure the WFB is an equally good organization, but it is still mainstream. That isn't a knock, it is just a reality.

The only way to find out otherwise is to place the WFB on equal footing with the cph end of the hobby by having them attend a cph event. I'm sure they would do well, but until you toss the puppy in the water, you don't know if he can swim.

So, Mr. Troll, go back under your bridge or toss your puppy.

[Spinster]

Where is Ray Prosteen when you need him?

Since he's not here, I'll say it for him : Spade= Spade


With all this hair splitting and angels dancing on the head of a pin, I'm wondering one thing:

Since When did the notion of being The Best become A Bad Thing?

Fall of Rome, anyone?

[BMI-1863]

Mint Julep,
Sir, thank you for asking of me. Actually, I'm no troll, I am an Ogre :rolleyes:. My friends call me Shrek :mrgreen: . I have sat here in the corner for quite some time. I only hop on here, every once in a while, just to read different posts. I have kept my tongue, until now. I am fed up with all of this fighting about which group is better. You CAN NOT tell me its not about politics. You may call it what you wish, but in the end, it is still "politics".

If the roles were reversed and, a so-called "mainstreamer" had made similar comments about campaigning or progressing, while recruiting for their unit/group, you guys would have been all over it, PERIOD!!

Honestly, if Mr. Butler wishes to recruit, there's nothing wrong with it. Just don't make comments like that. End the end, WE ARE ALL judged not by who we are, but what we do.

I am done discussing ignorance through the web. If you wish, we could meet for coffee and a danish somewhere and continue on. H@ll, I'll even spring for them. Let me know.

[Mint Julep]

John,

The bottom line is that some of us who are the 5% of the hobby (on this forum) and 7% of the hobby (on the other forum) and who DO actually attend with some regularity cph/EBUFU events that have set, enforced quality standards are trying to re-establish the line between the mainstream and the non-farb/mainstream - the cph/EBUFU. We are calling out those that identify themselves as campaigners, progressives and authentics, even hardcores, yet do not get past the mainstream events. We are staking a claim to our label, such as it is.

And there must be something to the label system, because when we say John Reenactor or Group X is not really a campaigner person/group, they get upset being lumped into the mainstream category. If the labels didn't mean something, they wouldn't care, would they? But they do and it is because the label "cph" or "campaigner" indicates that person/group has a higher standard than the mainstream "average".

The downside of so many claiming the label is that the label becomes watered down because so many claiming it do not have the same high exacting standards. They have compromised standards, they have unresearched standards, they have "I heard it once" standards. Those that do have higher standards get painted with a broad brush by others who only know the faux cph types. They think we are all nasty hardcores that eat our own, that hide information, that hide our events and snub our noses at them. They think we all run at rain, hide in the woods, won't get our muskets dirty and sit around on sutler row making rude comments about farbs.

The reality to all that is ... well, it isn't "Us". We don't even have a sutler row and there are no farbs to jab at our events. We constantly invite people to try our end of the hobby on our terms and offer to help with gear. We get wet when it rains and suffer, not run home. We don't go to mainstream events to proclaim ourselves superior. If we go to them at all, it is usually to see friends or have an event with relaxed standards or to hit sutler row for some cheap trinkets. You might say we are slumming.

But, many of your units out there that claim some place on the "cph" level have never ventured out of their coccoon of insulation and/or isolation to see what the rest of the cph is about. They think that because they buy clothes from certain vendors it is enough. They think that because they camp without tents it is enough. They think that because they may march around the event site for a few hours it is enough.

We say it is not.

Until you have marched for several days in a row, living from knapsack and haversack, you have no idea what campaigning is. Even the week long events we manage to pull off are only tiny peeks at what the life of a Civil War soldier was like. It is the best we can manage in our modern lives.

We want our label back and we want it clean.

[Craig L Barry]

Speaking of trolls, here is the call for Ray Prosten (Trimmngs) again! Where is he hiding out these days?

[Spinster]

Craig,

He's around, cause I can hear him.

[BMI-1863]

But they do and it is because the label "cph" or "campaigner" indicates that person/group has a higher standard than the mainstream "average".
OK, I agree with you on this point. So, who are "we" to determine who is or who is not setting higher standards? Just because one says they are, doesn't mean it. Remember, in the end, we are judged by what we do. So, this causes me to revert back to the original reason I began my posting (look at my original post regarding the bad choice of wording on Mr. Butler's part). Who are "WE" to decide who has or has not raised the bar on their standards? I know no one has made me judge, jury and execution.


Until you have marched for several days in a row, living from knapsack and haversack, you have no idea what campaigning is. Even the week long events we manage to pull off are only tiny peeks at what the life of a Civil War soldier was like. It is the best we can manage in our modern lives.
No matter how much we look at it, we will never live in their shoes. At best, 99% of events are two days. So, I think that forces all groups to face the same issue. From every history book I have read, did the Army not move in larger units (be it Brigade, Division, Corps, etc.)? So what makes setting up a camp, hosting various functions (various army departments), as long as its "per US Army Regulations" of the period?

And, as for "recreating the BMI". Do we ALL not recreate something? I'm willing to bet YOU recreate an Infantry Private? Well, ask yourself that very same question you asked me.

[Jim of the SRR]

Just as Mr. Butler did towards Mr. Chad Green and his Western Federal Blues???

Why are you bringing them into this discussion. No one slammed or mentioned any specific groups or individuals.

Jim Butler

[PMB1861]

Wow, this got tiring real quick...

Mr. Scholtz,

The SSR has posted and public standards and then attends quality events to prove we walk the talk we make. The SSR 'we' has progressing the hobby without attitude our central philosophy. Come to one of the events we've listed and you'll see what that means. Please use the link to the SSR website in my signature.

Does your recreated Bureau of Military Information have similiar public information posted on standards and events?

In the meantime the 'we' you're talking about doesn't exist, except in the visions of those who think of this as one hobby. Well from my perspective it just isn't. My hobby has standards and does new things and doesn't rest on the status quo. All of these are anathema to those who desire to remain in their comfort zone and what causes the rifts. There is no 'us' vs 'them' until 'they' start knocking down what 'we' are doing.

Wow, 7 total posts and all in one thread rehashing the tired 'us' vs 'them' debate. You should be proud.

[Jim of the SRR]

OK, I agree with you on this point. So, who are "we" to determine who is or who is not setting higher standards? Just because one says they are, doesn't mean it. Remember, in the end, we are judged by what we do. So, this causes me to revert back to the original reason I began my posting (look at my original post regarding the bad choice of wording on Mr. Butler's part). Who are "WE" to decide who has or has not raised the bar on their standards? I know no one has made me judge, jury and execution.


No matter how much we look at it, we will never live in their shoes. At best, 99% of events are two days. So, I think that forces all groups to face the same issue. From every history book I have read, did the Army not move in larger units (be it Brigade, Division, Corps, etc.)? So what makes setting up a camp, hosting various functions (various army departments), as long as its "per US Army Regulations" of the period?

And, as for "recreating the BMI". Do we ALL not recreate something? I'm willing to bet YOU recreate an Infantry Private? Well, ask yourself that very same question you asked me.

First we need to stop the idea that any person or group is 100% authentic. It ain't gonna happen! But, does this mean that we just stop trying?

In regards to standards, all events post some minimum standard. These vary in degree of detail and authenticity. If you want to take an individual to task on his published standards, then please do so. I have modified standards for events on several occassion when better research forces them to be updated. However, c/p/h events usually list a goal, mission statement, purpose, or event description that they are trying to recreate. This is the higher goal we are aiming to recreate. It is NEVER perfect and NEVER will be. But, it is something we should strive for to create better experiences for reenactors.
I attend mainstream adjuncts and c/p/h events. I have found that I usually fail to meet my own personal standards at adjuncts because there are too many intrusions and anachronisms that cause a regression mindset. When I attend c/p/h events (not LHs), I feel that I must try my best for several reasons. 1) as a personal challenge to myself to do better 2) so as to not ruin the moment or contribute to the regression of my fellow reenactors 3) to help better educate any visitors or specatators that may be watching. I find that the best moments (or Civilwargasms as some call it) at reenactments have only occurred when I first did my part in contributing to the authenticity of it. This rarely happens outside the c/p/h community. It can happen at any event, but this has just been my personal observation. Again, it is my opinion that you can't at least try to bowl strikes if you are at the baseball field. And even at the bowling alley, we many times roll gutters, but at least we are at the alley and we have tried.
The c/p/h community and events are not perfect and everyones kits is not perfect (there is a min, standard, not a perfect standard). But the most important thing is to at least try your best and c/p/h events are the best vehicle to progress and allow that to happen.

Jim Butler

[Mint Julep]

OK, I agree with you on this point. So, who are "we" to determine who is or who is not setting higher standards? Just because one says they are, doesn't mean it. Remember, in the end, we are judged by what we do. So, this causes me to revert back to the original reason I began my posting (look at my original post regarding the bad choice of wording on Mr. Butler's part). Who are "WE" to decide who has or has not raised the bar on their standards? I know no one has made me judge, jury and execution.

To continue your legal metaphor ...

In the case of Cadogan Estates Ltd vs Morris, Lord Justice Stuart-Smith referred to "the elephant test". "It is difficult to describe, but you know it when you see it." (Thanks, Wiki!)

So it goes with progressive reenacting. Once you've seen it in truth, you see the false claims much more clearly.



No matter how much we look at it, we will never live in their shoes. At best, 99% of events are two days. So, I think that forces all groups to face the same issue. From every history book I have read, did the Army not move in larger units (be it Brigade, Division, Corps, etc.)? So what makes setting up a camp, hosting various functions (various army departments), as long as its "per US Army Regulations" of the period?

So, now I'm a 1%'er?

No, there aren't many events that last longer than a couple of days. I've been to some really good 3 day events. And no one has suggested that only the week long marching events are the only ones that meet the high quality standard. But driving up and dropping off the tent, cot, cooler and iron grates isn't right. At least with the cph events you don't get that "theme camping" feeling.




And, as for "recreating the BMI". Do we ALL not recreate something? I'm willing to bet YOU recreate an Infantry Private? Well, ask yourself that very same question you asked me.

Somehow "private" or "citizen" does not seem as audacious or high-falutin' as "Bureau". Perhaps if you identified yourself as "Clerk of the BMI" you might seem a bit more humble.

[PetePaolillo]

Honestly, I'm pretty darn proud of my unit.


And what unit is that Sir?....You seem to have forgotten to mention that. I am not sure why the attack was made by you against Mr. Butler. It is obvious that you know absolutely nothing about the man or the Salt River Rifles. It is obvious you do not have the proper attitude that the unit strives for, so continue going to whatever events you go to, because those are where you should stay.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I was going to jump in the fray, but why have a battle of wits with an unarmed man? What part of Mr. Butler's missives are wrong or hard to understand? He's advertising a well-known, well-traveled unit, filled with folks from the southeast who do a variety of impressions as needed (US, CS, or citizen), and they attend quality events. You can't call yourself a campaigner, or progressive, and not attend that type of event - period. Folks on here who go to quality, history-heavy events have seen the SRR and their host organization SCAR, but somehow I've missed the Bureau of Military Information unit. Were you somewhere behind the kettle korn stand or the funnel cakes?

[hanktrent]

You can't call yourself a campaigner, or progressive, and not attend that type of event - period.

And what I don't get is, if a reenactor thinks it's important to be considered a campaigner or progressive by the kind of people who say that sort of thing, how hard is it to attend a couple of events like they're referring to? Then the problem's solved.

Personally, even if one doesn't want to do those events exclusively, I think they're a nice chance to see if one's impression is functional under more demanding field conditions, which is useful knowledge to take back to more stationary and/or less functional events like public interpretive events.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Craig L Barry]

No joke. Me too! I miss that guy...

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Absolutely Hank. Its not a stretch to have a good impression at any type of event, but to really attain a more believable approach to everything else, you need to be around like-minded folks at least part of the time. Heck, I know this is heresy, but I attend more mainstream events than progressive, but still find the time to get to a more proportional amount of "good" events. My life and location takes me to more 'fests than LH's or history-heavy events, but I didn't dream of calling myself a campaigner or even a progressive until I saw that I had what it takes to make it through a true campaign event. The funny thing is, those were easier, funner, and more rewarding than the average event, so maybe I'll shut up now before I let out the secret that campaign events aren't some archaic, ritualistic secret society, and that just about anyone with the right attitude would thrive in. I'll be quiet now....

[Craig L Barry]

Ha! Lamoreaux...I knew kettle corn and funnel cakes were coming into this discussion because I had them in my first post, thought twice and took it out. No, I thought, let somebody else drag out the Ren Faire comparisons for this one.

I think it was either the great philosopher Voltaire or Pvt Schnapps (I forget which) that said something along the lines of "there are only twelve authentic reenactors in the hobby and nobody can agree on who the other eleven are." Maybe not, but I bet a few of them are in the SRR w/ Jim Butler. These boys are known to have their sh-t together generally, and my goal is to have the same said of me, at some point. Which I doubt will happen anytime soon...but it is still a stretch goal to do my personal best and improve. What anybody else does is their own business.

This one had it all. Personal attacks, hidden agendas, us v them, non-sensical debates about titular heads of the hobby (my contribution), bile spewing from the spirit world...Mrs Lawson feels the same apparition in the air that I do.

[southern confederate]

You know Ross , you are right . I have had the privilage of fighting with Dennis Neal and camping with those boys , and I tell I love to see someones impression that just makes me feel" WOW look at that ! " and I , like many others are always improving their kit , I mean I think that mine is never good enough . I have had people walk up to me (other reenactors)and say that I looked like I just stepped out of the history books but to me I never felt that it was just right , anyway , what I am trying to say is I would rather meet someone whose impression is flawless and learn from them than meet the same person with the the attitude of " my kit is right and you are nothing " and not even take the time to teach someone . If the guys on this original post are the kind that have the right mind set of things , that have taken the time " that I think everyone should " to get their stuff right and take the time to teach the public as well as other reenactors then hey they have my undivided respect , so in saying that I am done.

[Craig L Barry]

...who is having a good laugh at the lunacy up for grabs here? CJ Rideout. I noted that this identical word track appeared without a single comment on another internet forum many of visit from time to time. It is just so obviously a common sense no offense intended invitation to hang out for a weekend sometime with a bunch of guys who know their left foot from their right without writing it on the tops of their boots.

[Mint Julep]

I have had the privilage of fighting with Dennis Neal and camping with those boys ....

Not to split hairs, but Dennis Neal is in the 16th La, not the Salt River Rifles or SCAR. Are you confusing the two organizations?



I would rather meet someone whose impression is flawless and learn from them than meet the same person with the the attitude of " my kit is right and you are nothing " and not even take the time to teach someone ..

No one's impression in flawless. The last flawless impression died in the first half of the 20th century. Reenactors are poor imitations.



If the guys on this original post are the kind that have the right mind set of things , that have taken the time " that I think everyone should " to get their stuff right and take the time to teach the public as well as other reenactors then hey they have my undivided respect , so in saying that I am done.

On this, I agree. The SRR and SCAR fellows have the right mindset, are always willing to welcome reenactors that want to try a new level of the hobby into their ranks and take the time to teach spectators history instead of fantasy.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Let me be one to say that the Salt River Rifles and guys associated with them through SCAR are definitely not perfect by any means, nor do I wish to imply that they (we) are. I'll be the second, or third or fourth guy to tell you that there is definitely room for improvement in just about everyone there. For some its kit, for some its impression knowledge, some its drill, others physical appearance, but the common factor that makes them decent is the willingness to fix whats broken, to tweak some things to make them better, and the attitude to try harder and get just a little closer to what history shows and tells us what really happened. I don't want folks on here reading that the SRR or SCAR are absolutely perfect - we are far from it. Attitude and willingness to change and learn set these boys apart. I'm not calling anyone out to say if you're not with Jim you're wrong, by any means. I'm merely suggesting to check them out if you get the chance and if you want to go to some history-heavy events, you've got a place to check it out from.

[southern confederate]

No I was not confusing Dennis with them , I just meant it as an example . Sorry for the confusion.

[Mint Julep]

Ah, well, apples and oranges, Jason, apples and oranges.

[southern confederate]

Lets see , whats the phrase ? "What we have here is a failure to communicate " or " Can't we all just get alone " : ) !

[fahtz]

P****g in the wind?

[flattop32355]

...I mean I think that mine is never good enough . I have had people walk up to me (other reenactors)and say that I looked like I just stepped out of the history books but to me I never felt that it was just right...

Let's think about the above statements for a moment.....

We have a reenactor whom some think is the gold standard for what a real CW soldier would look like, and at the same time, he, himself, only sees the flaws. That, in itself, says something.

Let's add not only the look, but the attitude, the bearing, and any other aspects you'd like to include that would make one a good example of a "real CW sojer".

As already stated, there are certain parts of that "being" that are easier to achieve: Kit only costs money, while attitude and bearing require study, dedication, and practice/experience. The caveat is that there are certain aspects of "being" that CW soldier that we don't want to emulate as modern people, for health and safety reasons.

Now, let's deal with that word that seems to have caused a large part of the ruckus: Progressive.

Some use it as an absolute: "I am a progressive reenactor." It connotates that one has reached a certain level of accuracy (not authenticity).

Others use it as a relative term: "I'm progressing/progressive as a reenactor." It connotates that one is getting better at it than what one was previously, but doesn't insinuate that one has reached any particular level of accuracy.

Each viewpoint claims near-exclusive rights to the word, and gets miffed when it's used in a way different than used by that person. I've suffered from it myself, much to my own embarrassment and humbling (Thanks, Hank!).

In the end, we argue about how many angels fit on the head of a pin, and what must be included to be called "progressive". If I'm the world's most inaccurate reenactor, but I switch from combat boots to brogans, am I now progressive? If I step out of my mainstream ways and attend an upscale, high end, high standard event, am I now progressive?

The answer to both is a definite "Yes and no". There's more to it than just one or two simple acts; 'tis the accumulated effort and attitude over time that seems to tell the tale.

So, let's collectively join the angels on the head of that pin, and strain at gnats while swallowing logs. It makes for interesting threads, now that Banjo Danny is gone....or is he?

Oh, yeah, the disclaimer: I'm a mainstreamer who occasionally swims into the other end of the pool. And Jim's initial post did not offend me at all; not even a raised eyebrow.

[Remise]

Wake up, please!

This is the Recruiting Section, not the Whine Cellar. Could you close this thread to anybody but Jim Butler (if that is what he wants) so the guy can just recruit for his unit? There are plenty of other places in this forum and elsewhere for these sorts of pillow fights.

Thanks very much,

B.C.Milligan
Please Shut Up and Let Me Get Some Sleep Mess

[tompritchett]

Wake up, please!

This is the Recruiting Section, not the Whine Cellar. Could you close this thread to anybody but Jim Butler (if that is what he wants) so the guy can just recruit for his unit? There are plenty of other places in this forum and elsewhere for these sorts of pillow fights.

Thanks very much,

Unfortunately, I was off-line when the controversy first arose and by the time I was back on-line, it had pretty much died down in terms of attacks on Jim. Also unfortunately, I can not lock this thread to anyone but Jim. What I can do though now that I think about it is close this thread and copy Jim's initial post to make a new thread. That I will do now.