Tent Fly

[garretttcrooks]

Why is it that you dont see many tent flies used to put over the tent as seen in many civil war tintypes. I have not seen them used this way except in tintypes like this. is it because reenactors dont want to waste a good fly to just put it over their tent when they can use it to sit under? please explain this to me.

http://http://www.18thtexasinfantry.org/training/images/tenting4.jpg

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

There's a few factors in this including, but not limited to:
folks haven't seen original images
it looks cooler to have a "front porch" type of fly in front of the tent
its easier to find a proper common or wall tent than a correct tent fly
folks haven't seen original images
more stuff to carry in the car/truck/trailor
folks don't know the intrinsic value of the fly for coolness and rain protection
folks haven't seen original images

I joke a little about the overemphasis on original images, and there are indeed period photos of tents having flies set up in the popular reenactor fashion of "front porches", but far and away most images show the flies being placed over the tents. If you do a search on this forum as well as the AC, you'll see past discussions on this phenomenon. I'd be happier (personal opinion only) to see people just camping under the fly than to set up a regimental headquarters worth of gear and supplies with a large common tent or wall tent, as there is plenty of contemporary reference to soldiers north and south utilizing only tent flies while on campaign.

[Spinster]

Gracious, that fly over the top of the tent does make a big difference in the temperature inside, as well as providing added protection from driving rain. The extra tie down is helpful when there is a lot of wind too.

In other words, THEY were smart people back THEN.

One things been nagging at me for the past year---somehow the more I mess around with all this plunder, the more the ropes one normally sees used at events seems outsized. I wish somebody with a better eye to proportion in period images would speak to that size comparison.

[garretttcrooks]

although i havent seen it in orgionnal pictures, could i put one over my wedge tent? well i know i can, but would it be correct?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Great observation regarding ropes. Part of the problem is that the current reproductions of tentage and flies contain large brass grommets, which allow for larger and longer ropes to be used than that of the period. Proper period tentage, for the very most part, had smaller, handworked grommets, utilizing tent pin loops (small rope loops) for the stakes, and the lines used for tent flies were thus smaller in diameter. When utilizing a tent fly in the manner of placing over a tent, you need much less length of line to hold in down as well. Modern reeenactments often look like a convention for the Rope Maker's Union....

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

although i havent seen it in orgionnal pictures, could i put one over my wedge tent? well i know i can, but would it be correct?

Yes, I've seen that in several period images, both as isolated singular tents such as junior officers or staff nco's in a traditional streeted arrangement, as well as over the privates common tents on the company street. By comparison of images, I'd have to go with less flies over them, but there is, in my opinion, enough images to justify flies over a common tent if in a garrison camp and staying for a length of time, or in a very hot climate

[Spinster]

See Ross, that's part of my problem.......once one gets hold of a well made well documented widget, then the lesser ones start raising questions.

Two things cranked me in this case--first, about a year ago, I came into several hundred feet of wet spun line linen rope, about a third the size of my pinky finger. Nice stuff, and I'm really careful where I use it, but all I can think about is how much better and easier to transport it would be than all these big ropes with 'dog bones' on them.

Then I lucked in to a documented reproduction Confederate fly--Nate Petersburg's handiwork--and felt the difference, and quickly comphrehended that it demanded a different methodology in set up--what's different, I don't know, but I'll have fun finding out.

Of course, what a civilian is doing with a piece of military issue equippage is a whole nother problem, and I imagine some good friend will eventually convince me of the error of my ways, and relieve me of the burden of owning such a fine thing. :rolleyes:

[50th VA Corporal]

Why is it that you dont see many tent flies used to put over the tent as seen in many civil war tintypes. I have not seen them used this way except in tintypes like this. is it because reenactors dont want to waste a good fly to just put it over their tent when they can use it to sit under? please explain this to me.

http://http://www.18thtexasinfantry.org/training/images/tenting4.jpg

When the occasion arises where I have a wall tent set up I ALWAYS put a fly over top of it. Besides keeping the inside of the tent cooler in the summer heat it also sheds rain water away from the sides of the tent walls.

I never set the wall tent up without the extra fly. However, in normal circumstances I would rather take advantage of my common tent or shelter halves as they are far less hassle than the wall tent in most regards.

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

See Ross, that's part of my problem.......once one gets hold of a well made well documented widget, then the lesser ones start raising questions.

Two things cranked me in this case--first, about a year ago, I came into several hundred feet of wet spun line linen rope, about a third the size of my pinky finger. Nice stuff, and I'm really careful where I use it, but all I can think about is how much better and easier to transport it would be than all these big ropes with 'dog bones' on them.

Then I lucked in to a documented reproduction Confederate fly--Nate Petersburg's handiwork--and felt the difference, and quickly comphrehended that it demanded a different methodology in set up--what's different, I don't know, but I'll have fun finding out.

Of course, what a civilian is doing with a piece of military issue equippage is a whole nother problem, and I imagine some good friend will eventually convince me of the error of my ways, and relieve me of the burden of owning such a fine thing. :rolleyes:

You do have many friends around who I'm sure now know just how foolhardy it is that you're toting around that stolen piece of martial material, and you should trade it instantly for a few chickens or such so that the provost martial doesn't take you off in irons. Perhaps you just need to know someone who can sew you another less martial one to keep you out of trouble. If only I knew someone who could sew....

[Spinster]

The Provost has Irons? :mrgreen:

Mistah Pierpont will be along soon.....no wait, he's Federal and won't care that I have a Confederate shelter fly.....the last Cornfed Provosts I saw were the Lazy Jacks, but I just had to cool my heels for an hour or so. No Irons proffered, must be another one of those things the South was fresh out of....

[Blair]

Mrs. Lawson,

Just a thought... but you never know, the Provost maybe willing to look the other way if you turn one of those chicken Ross was talking about into chicken n dumplings.
In fact, if the Provost were worth his salt, He could probably provide the chicken (s) if you did the fixing.

[Guy Gane III]

Modern reeenactments often look like a convention for the Rope Maker's Union....

hahahaha... so true, Ross. :grin:

[Longbranch 1]

Great observation regarding ropes. Part of the problem is that the current reproductions of tentage and flies contain large brass grommets, which allow for larger and longer ropes to be used than that of the period. Proper period tentage, for the very most part, had smaller, handworked grommets, utilizing tent pin loops (small rope loops) for the stakes, and the lines used for tent flies were thus smaller in diameter. When utilizing a tent fly in the manner of placing over a tent, you need much less length of line to hold in down as well. Modern reeenactments often look like a convention for the Rope Maker's Union....

Ross,

You hit a nerve mentioning " current " reproductions and large brass grommets. Fingernails on the blackboard to me.

It took me "spare time " months to hand sew a Mexican War ,CS/fly from correct materials.
I was fortunate enough to be able to examine some privately held examples.
( Grommet reinforcement was different than I had thought. Literally, a Homer Simpson DOH!! moment.) :)

Insofar as cordage, while not absolutely correct, it is more nearly correct.
Garden variety 1/8" hemp twine.

Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Kevin, did your grommet have corded reeinforcements or some other type? As an aside, I've found that a good corded grommet within the proper seam allowance can be just as strong as a metal grommet over time. It worked for sails for hundreds of years. I know you appreciate the effort and amount of time it takes to make something now. Its hard to imagine with our modern mind that the majority of all tentage and flies were handsewn for both armies.

[Longbranch 1]

Ross,

I hope you will pardon my lack of proper terminology.
But to answer your question, yes this is a corded grommet.

One unique feature was the ,for lack of a better term," mini rope splice"" used in that detail.

I would venture that , as you noted, with proper allowances and stitching, this type of grommet is actually stronger than punch and press metal grommets. Particularly if there are not " running " lines passed through them.

Just having fun and learning to sew. :)

Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC

[Artyman]

Time Life Books series shows an A tent (wedge) with a fly over it! I forget where or which, but it was in the South along the seacoast.
Harry

[hiplainsyank]

Working on a shelter half right now according to the Union Guard directions, but hand sewing instead of machine. Anyone know what stitch would be correct for the flat felling? A backstitch, or some other stitch?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

A simple whip stitch. They were meant to be durable but quick to produce and they weren't too worried about the aesthetics.

[hiplainsyank]

Thanks for the help, Ross!

[Matt_Wright]

Ross,

I hope you will pardon my lack of proper terminology.
But to answer your question, yes this is a corded grommet.

One unique feature was the ,for lack of a better term," mini rope splice"" used in that detail.

I would venture that , as you noted, with proper allowances and stitching, this type of grommet is actually stronger than punch and press metal grommets. Particularly if there are not " running " lines passed through them.

Just having fun and learning to sew. :)

Regards,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC


There's a paper floating around on the internet somewhere discussing the Army's complete reliance on the sailmaking industry for acquiring its tents before the war. If you take a close look at the photographs of original tents in F. Gaede's book, you'll notice some subtle differences in construction which I think (my theory) is atributable to whether the foundation of knowledge for the contractor/arsenal came from the sail making industry or the garment industry. My pet theory is that the Cincinatti Depot tents may be an example of tents made by folks who started out as sailmakers. These tents tend to be sewn from heavier cord (ie "small stuff") as opposed to thread, and the buttonholes are distinct in that they are in a teardrop shape with the rounded end toward the edge (as opposed to the usual slit seen on clothing and many other shelterhalves). This feature makes it less likely that the holes will pull through & I believe is consitent w/ an industry whose products were designed to take a lot of stress. The grommets on tent #9 (attributed to Cincinatti) also appear to be corded. I believe the prevalent use of the "lap" seam on shelterhalves is another hold over from the sail making industry, as my observations indicate that these seams are very uncommon on period garments. However, this seam is the preferred seam to use in sailmaking (where it was known as the "round" seam) - even when joining two selvedge edges - due to its greater strength.

Matt Wright

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

There's a paper floating around on the internet somewhere discussing the Army's complete reliance on the sailmaking industry for acquiring its tents before the war. If you take a close look at the photographs of original tents in F. Gaede's book, you'll notice some subtle differences in construction which I think (my theory) is atributable to whether the foundation of knowledge for the contractor/arsenal came from the sail making industry or the garment industry. My pet theory is that the Cincinatti Depot tents may be an example of tents made by folks who started out as sailmakers. These tents tend to be sewn from heavier cord (ie "small stuff") as opposed to thread, and the buttonholes are distinct in that they are in a teardrop shape with the rounded end toward the edge (as opposed to the usual slit seen on clothing and many other shelterhalves). This feature makes it less likely that the holes will pull through & I believe is consitent w/ an industry whose products were designed to take a lot of stress. The grommets on tent #9 (attributed to Cincinatti) also appear to be corded. I believe the prevalent use of the "lap" seam on shelterhalves is another hold over from the sail making industry, as my observations indicate that these seams are very uncommon on period garments. However, this seam is the preferred seam to use in sailmaking (where it was known as the "round" seam) - even when joining two selvedge edges - due to its greater strength.

Matt Wright

Great points Matt. The very first time I cracked open the Gaede book, I noticed the differences in construction techniques, particularly the Cincinatti tent loft objects, and made particular note that those seamed as if they relied heavily on nautical-type sewing. When you compare Cincy tents with everyday navy objects such as hammocks, seabags, sails, and tarpaulins, the points you noted are there - heavier cord, grommets, and buttonholes all conform to your points. The fun of shelter half construction, as you well know since you were doing it long before me, is that there isn't just one type, there are many variants. I enjoy making the earliest ones myself, be that a vertical or horizontal center panel, tent pole "slits" instead of round grommet, or even piecing scrap together to piece the panels. Thanks for adding to the discussion Matt.

[Confederal]

Great subject. Yes you are correct many pictures show the Fly over the tent. An then some also have a porch Fly. What I fine that most reenactors do when using as a porch fly is to attach it to the front tent pole. This from what I see is totally wrong. Most pictures of porch flys show the poles being cutting a tree not a regular tent style pole. Also most porch flyes where as a rule much higher than the tent. Some pictures even show the fly being long enought to cover the tent and also be a porch fly.
If I am wrong sound off.
Confederal

[flattop32355]

Great subject. Yes you are correct many pictures show the Fly over the tent. An then some also have a porch Fly. What I fine that most reenactors do when using as a porch fly is to attach it to the front tent pole. This from what I see is totally wrong. Most pictures of porch flys show the poles being cutting a tree not a regular tent style pole. Also most porch flyes where as a rule much higher than the tent. Some pictures even show the fly being long enought to cover the tent and also be a porch fly.
If I am wrong sound off.
Confederal

Can you reference any pictures showing the "porch fly"?

[Confederal]

Can you reference any pictures showing the "porch fly"?
Good Morning Bernard
I call it a porch fly you know the flies in front of the tent. Maybe it should or does have another name.
Pictures, you can find some in Mathew Brady illustrated history of the Civil War by Benson J Lossing
pages 13,247,285,287,316,335,341,Grant at City Point on page 439,463,465,483.
Most of these are pictures of Officers I think. This should be no problem with porch flies at reenactments seeing how every 3rd man at some events is a Officer. LOL over and over and over.
Confederal:D

[RJSamp]

Good Morning Bernard
I call it a porch fly you know the flies in front of the tent. Maybe it should or does have another name.
Pictures, you can find some in Mathew Brady illustrated history of the Civil War by Benson J Lossing
pages 13,247,285,287,316,335,341,Grant at City Point on page 439,463,465,483.
Most of these are pictures of Officers I think. This should be no problem with porch flies at reenactments seeing how every 3rd man at some events is a Officer. LOL over and over and over.
Confederal:D



We (the collective forum) discussed this at length 4+ years ago, with pictures. Take a good hard look at those Brady pictures cited above, and observe:

What percentage have a fly over the tent.

What percentage have No fly over the tent and a front porch fly.

what is the shape of the gable of the front porch fly (Flat, angled to match the tent gable, angled to match the tent fly gable, or angled at will.

how many posts does it have.

Then go to your reenacting event.
Any similarities to what they did?

Realize that the Brady City Point pictures are of an army base/army hospital tent city. Not a regimental camp, not a fighting unit on the move where the wagons caught up with them, and not a summer time moving every day or couple of days camp. (a shout out to Charles Converse, Bugler, 27th NY Cavalry (horseless) who died at City Point Hospital Jan 24, 1865 in one of those tents in the photographs).

My 12 years, 100+ event experience is: reenactors tend to Not set the fly over the tent as a priority (it's usually a front porch), and the front porch fly is set very flat with multiple posts to support the fly. Not Plain, Everday, Common (PEC) practice per the pictures from the ACW. And yes, officer's not enlisted men....and NOT CIVILIANS.

The 1st fly should go over the tent. If a 2nd fly is available then you could set it up as a porch (or maybe a standalone fly maybe under a tent arbor). The front porch gable closely profiles the over the tent fly gable or the tent gable, i.e. steeply angled, not flat. and NO side posts (or at least tall ones). And I still like the post and side rail method of tieing down the flys (looks like a Western town horse hitchin' rail).

Period, period.

[Confederal]

We (the collective forum) discussed this at length 4+ years ago, with pictures. Take a good hard look at those Brady pictures cited above, and observe:

What percentage have a fly over the tent.

What percentage have No fly over the tent and a front porch fly.

what is the shape of the gable of the front porch fly (Flat, angled to match the tent gable, angled to match the tent fly gable, or angled at will.

how many posts does it have.

Then go to your reenacting event.
Any similarities to what they did?

Realize that the Brady City Point pictures are of an army base/army hospital tent city. Not a regimental camp, not a fighting unit on the move where the wagons caught up with them, and not a summer time moving every day or couple of days camp. (a shout out to Charles Converse, Bugler, 27th NY Cavalry (horseless) who died at City Point Hospital Jan 24, 1865 in one of those tents in the photographs).

My 12 years, 100+ event experience is: reenactors tend to Not set the fly over the tent as a priority (it's usually a front porch), and the front porch fly is set very flat with multiple posts to support the fly. Not Plain, Everday, Common (PEC) practice per the pictures from the ACW. And yes, officer's not enlisted men....and NOT CIVILIANS.

The 1st fly should go over the tent. If a 2nd fly is available then you could set it up as a porch (or maybe a standalone fly maybe under a tent arbor). The front porch gable closely profiles the over the tent fly gable or the tent gable, i.e. steeply angled, not flat. and NO side posts (or at least tall ones). And I still like the post and side rail method of tieing down the flys (looks like a Western town horse hitchin' rail).

Period, period.

Do any of you like myself ever wonder if RJ is ever happy?

[TheQM]

I still like the post and side rail method of tieing down the flys (looks like a Western town horse hitchin' rail).

RJ,

So do I, but I can't figure out how to use them without digging four, three feet deep holes.

[cjdaley]

For the last 10 years I've used a hospital tent for my sutler rig. I've always put the tent fly OVER the tent instead of in front. (although I did have a second fly which acted as a 'porch' at times.

I noticed during hot events like Gettysburg and Manassas, the tent was always much cooler as the hot air was trapped in between the two layers of canvas.

I notice during cold events like Perryville and Cedar Creek that the tent was much warmer as the second layer kept out the cold wind.

I notice during wet events like Neshaminy and New Market that the tent was dryer having two layers of canvas.

I go back to a quote that a good friend told me "People were pretty smart back then if you give them half a chance"

Me and my former hospital tent at an 1861 Drill:

http://www.cjdaley.com/tent.jpg

[RJSamp]

For the last 10 years I've used a hospital tent for my sutler rig. I've always put the tent fly OVER the tent instead of in front. (although I did have a second fly which acted as a 'porch' at times.

I noticed during hot events like Gettysburg and Manassas, the tent was always much cooler as the hot air was trapped in between the two layers of canvas.

I notice during cold events like Perryville and Cedar Creek that the tent was much warmer as the second layer kept out the cold wind.

I notice during wet events like Neshaminy and New Market that the tent was dryer having two layers of canvas.

I go back to a quote that a good friend told me "People were pretty smart back then if you give them half a chance"


Have you seen the double notched stakes where you only use one stake for both the fly and the tent (uses 1/2 less stakes, medium to medium rare)?

[RJSamp]

RJ,

So do I, but I can't figure out how to use them without digging four, three feet deep holes.

yea, frowned upon I'm sure at most event sites....especially actual ACW locations.

We were at a spot a year or two ago in the woods were you could have set a hitchin' post rail on trees....lash two horizontal rails 2-5' off of the ground and attach your fly side guys to it....but that wouldn't be the norm. and of course obtaining the side rails could be an event land owners no-no as well.

Obviously, stones/rocks/cliche/tree roots could have a say in this as well.

[RJSamp]

Do any of you like myself ever wonder if RJ is ever happy?

yea, Hincapie should have gotten le maillot jaune yesterday.....

Son's volleyball team won their third straight State title a month ago, his club team took 9th in the nation 2 weeks ago, and I still have a job. Oh....I'm on a doctor supervised weight loss program no sweets, no junk food, one starch per meal max....and no alcohol.

[Spinster]

RJ,

Welcome to My World.

Down 30 Pounds so far and its not so bad. And if you take a measured teaspoon from somebody else's drink and hold it in your mouth, you'll get the taste, if not the effect.

I can't smoke cee-gars anymore either, but I sure do enjoy the ones that other folks have......

CJ--I figure there is some sort of arrangement that holds that top fly a couple of inches above the tent. How is it done? I just lay mine across the ridge before I stand the tent up.

[cjdaley]

Have you seen the double notched stakes where you only use one stake for both the fly and the tent (uses 1/2 less stakes, medium to medium rare)?

Yup, I used to use them as well, but after the Spotsylvania tornado I decided to get 18" tent stakes made form 1" steel stock. Also, with those stakes, you need to drive a hole for them first with a steel spike, then insert the wooded stake with the double notches. I agree it uses twice as few, but the wooded ones don't last as long and aren't as strong as the steel ones. For those of us on Sutler row, the steel stakes aren't a huge crime against history considering 100% of what I sell wasn't sold by the original sutlers anyway.

CJ--I figure there is some sort of arrangement that holds that top fly a couple of inches above the tent. How is it done? I just lay mine across the ridge before I stand the tent up.

As mentioned above the tent stakes were sometimes double notched, or as I've seen in several images, two sets of tent stakes were used with the fly tent stakes being layed out 18" to 24" further than the row tent stakes. This allows for a wider 'triangle' for the tent fly than the tent. As you mentioned, the fly is set up above the tent and then both are raised at the same time so they do actually touch at the ridge pole, but are seperated from that point to the bottom of the tent. Also, by doing this, the fly will hang out a few inches past the tent so in a rain storm, the tent and tent walls will remain dry.

yea, Hincapie should have gotten le maillot jaune yesterday.....

I love George and hope someday he wins Paris-Roubaix, but c'mon, you can't complain when you don't win. I hate when people blame other people when they don't win something. If you don't win, congradulate the guy who did...don't bitch at the guy who 'prevented' you from winning.

[Artyman]

Couldn't respond sooner, was at an event. Just wanted to say that RJ is right! Further, it has been established in numerous threads previously that these big encampments are rear area things, not on the march things. Knowing that some think this to be improper for us to show the public, we must at least try to be as "correctly wrong" as we can be. I havn't seen a Coleman camp stove on a picnic table for a long time, but I do see some pretty "imaginative" tent set ups. How the tents are pitched is part of that. Remember folks, that in the rear areas there were also officers and NCOs whose only function was to police and regulate the camp. Take a contemporary photo of a neat clean row of a tents and compare it to what we see in our camps. Ours look more like a refugee camp than a military one.

Time Life books has a photo in its ACW series that shows a wedge tent with a fly over it and a wooden floor, the whole thing leveled with rocks and bricks stuck under the floor. It is an isolated tent in a beach/sand area. I have yet to see a set up like it in a present day encampment. If you want extreme, you can do it and be correct, without using all those un need poles and such.

And I almost never see one of those tree limb arbor shade shelters put up. We see lots of those in the original photos.

I like tents!

Harry