Replacing Civilian Weapons

[crowley_greene]

This thread spins off from another one in this forum about Kentucky long rifles, and some posts that made reference to a limited number of civilian rifles and muskets in the ranks that were soon replaced.

Actually, I do recall reading one book (An Untutored Genius) on Nathan Bedford Forrest that dealt with that same subject. The author is a PhD, and the work is extensively footnoted with references (just an attempt to lend a little credibility). According to this author, as late as 1864 when Forrest was having to raise troops the citizens were falling in with whatever they happened to have on hand -- shotguns, squirrel rifles, etc. But as some have already said in posts, these civilian weapons were replaced as soon as possible.

Is my memory faulty here? I may be remembering incorrectly from a book that I read almost two years ago.

It had crossed my mind some years back to purchase a civilian rifle (in addition to my Springfield) for selected events.

Murray Therrell

[Craig L Barry]

One of the chapters for "Wearing the Gray" (if it is ever finished) deals extensively with the use of civilian arms in the conflict, and there are many references to their use, especially in the western theater. I have images of receipts from various Confederate states showing purchase of private arms such as hunting rifles and shotguns.

Most events prohibit the use of these weapons regardless of time period portrayed.

[Blair]

Murray,

Please be kind enough to discribe, in your mind, What exactly is a Civilian Weapon/Firearm?

[crowley_greene]

Please be kind enough to discribe, in your mind, What exactly is a Civilian Weapon/Firearm?

Oh, I may have stumbled a bit in my vocabulary there. When I mentioned civilian shotguns and rifles in the original post, in my mind I thought of firearms that were produced primarily for hunting.

Murray Therrell

[Blair]

OK Murray, here is an example of what I am asking you,
Remington produces thousands of firearms under contract to the U S Government over many years and for many different Model firearms.
They also produce thousands of firearms at the same time for Civilian usage. Shotguns, Sporting Rifles, pistols and revolvers, etc., etc.
How would you define the differences in what the Military requirements were form what the civilians wanted?
This should be as easy, right?

[crowley_greene]

How would you define the differences in what the Military requirements were form what the civilians wanted? This should be as easy, right?

I'm afraid that I'm so unknowledgeable and uninformed in this area that I can only answer your question with questions of my own. Would shotguns have been produced for the military? Could it be that some number of civilian firearms might have been of smaller calibers than military firearms (seems like a .69 caliber or .58 caliber could make a fair mess of a rabbit or squirrel)?

Always interested to learn.

Murray Therrell

[Blair]

Murray,

This is your thread, surly you have some idea where you would like to see this go?
There is a lot of info that you can find by searching your local Militia Laws. Each Colony/State can vary quire a bit in different times.
I think you will find there is very little difference between Military and Civilian types of firearms. It will depend mostly on who bought them more than who made them and/or how they might have been used.
You asked about shotguns. Do you know the difference between a shotgun and a fowler or a smooth bore Musket?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Not speaking for Herr Murray...

But I think he is thinking of the "civilian" rifles that evolved out of the late "Pennsylvania" and "Kentucky" eras after the end of the Black Hawk War where the need for a heavy, large calibre, large game and man killer was replaced with a squirrel or deer rifle for the gentleman hunter, target shooter, or farmer.

These nicknamed "Ohio Rifles" were typically smallish, light weight, full stocks but increasingly half stocks ranging from .30 to .40 calibre.

Just about every small town around here had a gunmaker making these things from the 1840's on.

Such as this one made by Hudson in Cincinnatti:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/HudsonOhioRifle.jpg

CHS

[crowley_greene]

. . . I think he is thinking of the "civilian" rifles that evolved out of the late "Pennsylvania" and "Kentucky" eras after the end of the Black Hawk War where the need for a heavy, large calibre, large game and man killer was replaced with a squirrel or deer rifle for the gentleman hunter, target shooter, or farmer.

Thank you. I think you sum up very well that which I was having some difficulty articulating. :)

Murray Therrell

[Blair]

Murray,

My point is that there are a lot of firearms made in the private sector, Civilian market, that the Military adopts for their use.
Example, Sharps Breech loading Rifles and Carbines. Sharps makes modifications to the standard firearm that will make them more desirable, serviceable to the Military such as bayonet lugs and sling attachments/swivels. Sharps are a civilian firearm.

When Berdan Sharpshooters exchanged their heavy barreled target rifles for a Colt Revolving Rifle or a Sharps Breech loading rifle they were in effect replacing one civilian weapon for another. Albeit the replacement may have been altered/modified at the request of the Military to better suit their needs.

[Phil]

Murray,

My point is that there are a lot of firearms made in the private sector, Civilian market, that the Military adopts for their use.
Example, Sharps Breech loading Rifles and Carbines. Sharps makes modifications to the standard firearm that will make them more desirable, serviceable to the Military such as bayonet lugs and sling attachments/swivels. Sharps are a civilian firearm.

When Berdan Sharpshooters exchanged their heavy barreled target rifles for a Colt Revolving Rifle or a Sharps Breech loading rifle they were in effect replacing one civilian weapon for another. Albeit the replacement may have been altered/modified at the request of the Military to better suit their needs.

Respectfully, that line of thinking introduces more confusion into the subject than is necessary.

Arms made in the national armories were certainly intended for use by the armed forces. The same holds true for arms manufactured by private contractors using pattern pieces provided by said national armories. Quite often, private firms producing arms for the civilian markets would also produce certain patterns of arms for purchase by the national or a state government. Sometimes these were produced to government specifications, sometimes not so much.

According to my 4th edition copy of Flayderman's, there were about 115,000 Sharps carbines for the 1859, 1863 & 1865 patterns combined. Over 100,000 of these were purchased by the US government for issue. The remaining 15,000 were very early 1859 model carbines, and Flayderman does not say how many were purchased by state governments for use by state troops. I think it'd be pretty hard to make a good case for calling one of these model Sharps a "civilian weapon."

I'm fairly certain the original poster would consider a "civilian arm" to be of a pattern not designed for use nor regularly issued by the military. I think it's actually more simple than some might think.

[tompritchett]

According to this author, as late as 1864 when Forrest was having to raise troops the citizens were falling in with whatever they happened to have on hand -- shotguns, squirrel rifles, etc. But as some have already said in posts, these civilian weapons were replaced as soon as possible.

One the issues that Forrest had to deal on more than one occasion was having to raise a brand new set of units. If I remember correctly in early 64, he was transferred out from underneath Bragg's command and assigned a new command in name only in Northern Mississippi that he had to fill from new recruits primarily from Western Tennessee. Consequently, these new recruits initially only had the weapons that they brought from home and whatever Forrest could scrape together. This would explain why these troops were initially outfitted with civilian weapons until he could be supplied with more standard military weapons either through normal Confederate supply channels or from captured Federal supplies.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

It is an interesting point of discussion...

But unlike today where there is NUG quite a distinct difference between military small arms and civilian arms, at the time of the Civil War it was not as great.

However, as shared, often times the Government was the biggest contract buyer of arms that could go "military" versus "civilian."

Not so much in the rifle-musket per se, but rather in say revolvers. For example, Colt made something like 200,000 M1860 "Army" revolvers, between roughly 1860 and 1872ish.
Of the 200,000ish, roughly 127,000 were made under contract in their "military form" with another roughly 2200 were purchased on the open market making roughly 129,000 out of 200,000 "military" and the rest "civilian."


Without splitting hairs, as shared, IMHO, while there are cross-overs (and limited exception where civilian guns were given martial roles), "civilian" guns NUG denotes and connotes non "martial" arms such as shotguns, target rifles, squirrel rifles, deer rifles, and "plains" rifles of the era.

Often times, it was the military contracts that meant the life and death of some arms makers. Samuel Colt's first enterprise, the Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company went bankrupt when he could not interest the Government in the M1836 Patterson.
Clt was not able to resurface until 1847 when he finageld a contract with the Government with the help of Eli Whitney Jr. through the Whitneyville facility.
Building on that success he was able to create Hartford and produce the M1848 Army Revolver, the first of the "dragoon" revolver series.

CHS

[Rob Weaver]

Didn't Burnside lose money on his carbine when he didn't get a government contract?
Does anyone have a ballpark figure for how many guns were manufactured in the United States in the 2nd quarter of the 19th century by private gunmakers? There was still a thriving business in gunsmithing at the time. There was one in Erie (can't remember his name at the moment) who made rifles with an all-metal wrist: the wood stock begins back near the end of the triggerguard, like an Ethan Alen rifle.
What would you consider the first "breakthrough" mass-produced civilian long gun? The Sharps? The 1868 or 1873 Winchester? Something that did for long guns what Colt did for pistols.