What do you REALLY want to do at a Reenactment?

[Capt. Lewis]

So many events have the demos, the teas, the fashion shows, and such. What do you REALLY want to see scheduled?:confused:

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

The only schedules should be that of the adjutant or commander for guard shifts. Everything else should come from the regulations for garrisons, or the historical record for a specific event. Soldiers and citizens didn't have pre-printed sheets with times to go get kettle korn and to pull out a silk ballgown out of the carpetbag for a dance just before fleeing the incoming soldiers.... I guess I'm just being a crotchety old infantryman tonight.

[ley74]

The only schedules should be that of the adjutant or commander for guard shifts. Everything else should come from the regulations for garrisons, or the historical record for a specific event. Soldiers and citizens didn't have pre-printed sheets with times to go get kettle korn and to pull out a silk ballgown out of the carpetbag for a dance just before fleeing the incoming soldiers.... I guess I'm just being a crotchety old infantryman tonight.

History works best.

[flattop32355]

I'm going to say it depends upon the goals of the event:

Is it to play soldier for the entire weekend? Then I want to do what soldiers did during that 48 hour period, from start to finish. I'm not foolish enough to think that we'd all dodge the modern world entirely, but the concentration would be on being in the moment in that time period.

Is it to teach the public? Then have opportunity to interact with spectators, schedule talks, exhibits, etc. for teaching. Allow us to show the people something of what the real soldiers/civilians went through, though in a compacted form.

Is it to have the three "B's"? Battle, Beer, Ball? Not everyone's cup of tea, and also all that some wish to drink. I'll meet my personal minimum standards (which admittedly can vary), even if those of the event are lower.

If we're going to simulate a camp and/or a fight, then I want competent commanders and NCO's, who know their jobs and do them, including taking care of the men under them. I want the men in the units around mine to be decently trained in how to perform in the field, just as I expect everyone in my unit to be.

I want good basic logistics: A decent site to play on. Adequate water, wood, and sanitation. A minimal plan for medical emergenies with the locals. Communication between commanders on both sides, down to the company level, so that everyone is on the same page. Organizers who are organized and prepared, and ready to handle surprises in a reasonable manner.

I want the reenactors present to take partial ownership in the event, and not just expect to be entertained. I want them actively seeking to contribute to the success of the event, which can be done in various ways and levels.

There's probably more, but that will do for now.

[hanktrent]

So many events have the demos, the teas, the fashion shows, and such. What do you REALLY want to see scheduled?:confused:

I think Into the Piney Woods (http://www.campchase.com/news/view_sections.asp?idcategory=45&idarticle=438) was about perfect.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Bill_Cross]

For me, the best events are the most "history heavy." Those have included, in no particular order, "Pickett's Mill 2001," "The Immortal 600" (not sure which one), "War on the James," the original "Burkittsville," "Berkeley 100."

Other events have had elements of what I'm looking for, including portions of the four McDowells, "Into the Wilderness" and even the first night and day of "Recon 2."

I have also enjoyed a number of Living Histories, especially when portraying the First Minnesota at Gettysburg.

But mostly the kinds of events I enjoy most are of a particular variety that emphasizes immersion in the period, and discourages the kinds of things a large majority of reenactors want (sulters, family, B& B, time to catch up with pards and shoot the $#%@, powder burning). No value judgement intended, just different strokes for different folks.

The "Bummers" event this November in GA promises to be along these lines.

[johnerys]

Flattop pretty much summed it up for me. In short I want to have a good weekend without anyone nitpicking my impression. :roll:.

[billwatson2]

"If we're going to simulate a camp and/or a fight, then I want competent commanders and NCO's, who know their jobs and do them, including taking care of the men under them."

Oh, I don't know, there's some reason to believe there were a great many incompetent commanders in 186x and also a great many folks in positions of authority who spent their time getting drunk while the people they were supposed to be leading were dying, freezing or going hungry. How come you only want to reenact competence, Bernie? Pretty picky! :D

[50th VA Corporal]

For me it is simple. I want to go to battalion level events and drill and battle. I want to get hot and sweaty. I want to learn the maneuvers. Then I want to drag my tired butt back to camp, smoke a cigar, eat a bit and drop off into a nap totally exhausted.

I want to sit around a fire and enjoy the fellowship of those of like mind.

That's all. Anything else is just extra.

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[Spinster]

I think Into the Piney Woods (http://www.campchase.com/news/view_sections.asp?idcategory=45&idarticle=438) was about perfect.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

What Hank said.

[mmescher]

While I could list a bunch of items for my ideal reenactment, I'd like to just start with a few simple items that would be great to see occur:

1. Get the unmitigated junk out of camp. I'm not even going to go into campaign camping vs. mainstream style. Let's just get things like the slat backed chairs, enamelware (one camp looked like a Navajo turquoise dealer they had so much of the blue enamelware sitting out), hay/straw bales, cold-handle fry pans, and railroad style kerosene lanterns.

2. When we go into battle, use skirmishers who know what they are doing out in front of each line.

3. Especially in tacticals, avoid getting so close that both sides have to start "duck hunting." I know it is for safety but to say it looks silly is an understatement. Would it be too much to wish that maybe the officers could work out some signals and decide who is advancing and whose turn it is to retreat so they push back and forth on the battlefield but without getting too close? And in engagements, work out an approach distance when the attackers turn back or the defenders flee before it gets too close. Any stalwarts can become casualties or stop shooting and be captured.

4. Have troops learn what to do with captured enemy.

5. If someone is a casualty, have them avoid propping themselves up on an elbow to watch the rest of the battle or, even worse, the "Lazaurus effect" where the dead rise and fall back into line. You may think the spectators don't notice but they do. From my own experience, I've learned a lot from being a casualty who stays down. You can feel some of the loneliness a wounded soldier felt when he was knocked down and his comrades marched on without him. Following lines have not a single recognizable face and considered him just an obstacle to pass over. And that doesn't even consider the fear caused by stray bullets zipping through the grass or passing just overhead.

Just some random thoughts.

Michael Mescher

[Rob]

Paperwork, paperwork, and more paperwork.

[Rob Weaver]

Umpired tacticals so that the decisions made on the field really matter. I'll second the "Lazarus effect." To quote my Boss, "it is appointed once for man to die." When I started reenacting in the mid-70s, once you were hit, you were down, unless you'd worked out some kind of walking wounded thing. I didn't see the dead rejoining the ranks until Gettysburg 125th and was appalled. I haven't gotten over that feeling yet.

[Poor Private]

I want to see all the dang furs out of camp sheesh this aint a mountain man event. The guys that do both mountain man and civil war set thier camps up the same way with the same stuff.
I want to see companies that don't have 2 officers 4 nco's and 3 privates.
I want to see all the mouchers stay home for a change- I get tired of the beggers asking for this or that--this ain't downtown Chicago, or an off ramp along the highway of any major city.

[sigman]

Umpired tacticals so that the decisions made on the field really matter.

If the umpire knows his tactics, that is the way to go. I had been at an event where our umpire was someone who needed a job and being short of umpires was given that duty. He was not up to snuff and really blew the experience at that particular fight.

Andy Siganuk 12th NJVI

[Bill_Cross]

"If we're going to simulate a camp and/or a fight, then I want competent commanders and NCO's, who know their jobs and do them, including taking care of the men under them."

Oh, I don't know, there's some reason to believe there were a great many incompetent commanders in 186x and also a great many folks in positions of authority who spent their time getting drunk while the people they were supposed to be leading were dying, freezing or going hungry. How come you only want to reenact competence, Bernie? Pretty picky! :D
Bill, I know you're being at least partly facetious, but I think the issue for all of us is one of time. I recall an event you and I attended at a certain fort some years back where a very large organization showed up Friday night to conduct a drill and LH at the site. The officers were all full-time officers with the organization, but they seemed to have little concept of officering at an event. Saturday morning came and most of it went until they finally got around to holding a meeting and making up some sort of plan for the rest of the day.

Was that "period correct"? Yep.

But given that we're not full-time soldiers with days, weeks and months of time spent in the field, it seems profligate with other the folks' weekend. Unlike my good friend, Bill Rodman, I'm not in the field every other weekend. When I go out, I want to attend an event where the organizers know how to structure the time with period things to do, not having us lounging around doing nothing. Because back then, when the boys of 186X weren't fighting, they were often doing something military.

The best events, for me at least, have been those where once I was in mufti and the event had gone "live," we did what soldiers did-- gathered wood, built fires, cooked rations, set up camps, stood guard, had mail call, ration issue, etc.

[flattop32355]

Oh, I don't know, there's some reason to believe there were a great many incompetent commanders in 186x and also a great many folks in positions of authority who spent their time getting drunk while the people they were supposed to be leading were dying, freezing or going hungry. How come you only want to reenact competence, Bernie? Pretty picky! :D

I'll cede you the point, however I do not enjoy standing in formation in the hot, hot sun at shoulder arms while the "officers" stand there debating what is the proper set of commands to get us how and where they want us to go.

That's different than an officer giving the wrong command by mistake, which is a source of great amusement for us rank and file, especially when he makes it more than once in succession in spite of himself. :)

I'm talking about fake officers who are so wrapped up in themselves and their faux rank that they forget about the men standing there, or give absolutely idiotic orders (By the flank, march, when the "enemy" is thirty yards away and almost done reloading).

Making mistakes is fine. Being incompetent because you didn't take the time (all frikkin' winter, every frikkin' year) to learn what you were supposed to to hold the office you somehow "earned" is totally unacceptable.

[Artyman]

Wow! What a "perfect world" could provide!?

For most of my years doing this the "implied" prime directive was to teach the public about a way of life that was all but forgotten. That was what we told each other and ourselves. That's what was printed in the paper. That implication included (or was supposed to include) everything...the battles, balls, distaff, food, music, camplife, you know.... just everything. Depending on the event of course, "everything" will change.

So there we went, all packed up in a trailer and a van, all handsewn and homespun. All grits and bacon, bloomers and drawers, fiddles and fifes, off on the noble cause to educate the masses. And that we did. But the masses didn't arrive until 9:00 and went home at 5:00. We'd congratulate ourselves for having put on a good show and nobody getting hurt, then proceed to revert to all the anacronisms we brought along and hid. The coolers, the watchs, the cell phones, the little battery operated TV's.

What in fact was happening was that we were actually vacationing with a large group of friends at an exotic place, with fewer rules and more chances to "temp the devil" so to speak. Girl friends came along, beer and booze..not seen at home..was bought and brought along. An entire culture was building around the event. Anticipation of the unknown, wanderlust, adventure, the birth of fresh yarns to tell around the cooler on Monday morning.

For some, the party took over the history. Too hung over from Saturday night to stand Sunday morning formation, passed out in the motel room having slept past the wake up call, leaving the event for a McDonalds Big Breakfast, the van stuck up to the chassis in the mud in front of the encampment.

For others, the spirit remains intact. The smell of campfire smoke wafts over the field, greeting the first spectators coming through the gate. The bacon frying, the guy standing in front of the small group showing how to load a musket, the craftsman working the product by hand as the crowd observes. Here and there a group of guys drinking coffee from a tin mug, laughing, telling tales, in uniform. The horses pawing at the ground while being saddled up, shaking their heads and manes. Then a banjo, here a flag..and another and another..strange foreign looking groups of stars and bars,stripes and colors. Over there a cannon is being pulled by. Groups of men and women begin to mount the horses, wheel and form up, or just stand idly by in the shade. There is activity everywhere and most of the reenactors are involved, perhaps angry at the slackers puking behind the tent, but actually much too busy doing what they do to dwell upon it for very long.

Then the battle begins, the artillery fires, the little kid starts to cry. Everywhere along the crowd line the spectators stretch for a better view, some cheer, some point, everyone is smiling and grinning, except that tearful little kid who doesn't yet know what a battle is all about. Countless cameras snap, camcorders silently record every move. The kid wearing the cheap toy kepi, the girl in the tank top, the teenager with the black lipstick, all enthralled with the specticle, small kids thrust up on Daddies shoulders, the lady trying to wave the black powder smoke away that has drifted across her place in the shade, all the while being directed where to look by some narriator on the loud speaker, invisible to the crowd, but presumed to know what he's talking about. "Is he really dead?" "Are the horses scared?" "Where do they get that stuff?" "Did you do this when you were in Nam?" "Why is that lady out there with the bucket?" "Look, that guy has a pistol!" "Why don't they just charge?" These comments and countless others flying between the dazzled crowd, the overheated adults, the anxuious and sqirmy children while the battle rages, the units wheel about and the musketry and artillery crashes out loudly, still suprizing those watching with every report.

For yet another group the sides to their sutler tents are dropped. The same goods, both wonderful and bad, become visible in the morning sun. The food stand suddenly comes alive with grilled hamburger smoke and the compressor from the cooler dominating the smell of the worn muddy grass before it, the small child tugging at the fathers hand crying" I want one of those". The raffle ticket stand, the historical society table, the portajohns like a row of Easter Island monoliths, all making the place appear as a county fair more so than 1861.

The spectator having passed by all that now stands at the entrance of the encampment. He sees a panarama of tents, smoke, drilling units, gun batterys, unknown ladies in hoop skirts, and always the God awful Lincoln impression wandering about from place to place trying to look like a $5 bill but actually more like his uncle Moe with his pioneer beard during the Sesquicenntennial. The visitors eyes are full of strange products, wonderful ambiance, kids in baggy shirts, men in suspenders, funny hats, portly ladies with the worlds biggest grin/apron/sunbonnet doing needlework next to a boiling stew pot, Amish folks (you wonder what they are doing here!). For what ever there is for him to see, for better or worse, he's transported to another time and place, however good or bad, accurate or farby, historical or otherwise it might actually be in reality. This whole thing will be quality time for him and his little boy, a change from mowing the yard or driving to work.

Because after everything else is said and done, reality is where he is.....and everyone who came here are trying to take him back in time and realize that they can only do just so much, they with all the modern world distractions surrounding their little place in the park, where they have come to put on a show, but also to reunite with all those other folks who, being of somewhat like minds and mentality, all see the value in having come here to do it...whether for that spectator standing at the gate or for themselves. I rather think its for both.

That's what I've come to expect over the years. My bubble got burst decades ago, but I still do it. In the end, for whatever goals I might have set for my pards and myself, it is the total package that still keeps me coming back for more. I have modified to it, and I hope that at least some small part of it was modified by me and that in some bigger or smaller way I actually mattered.

The rest is just details.

Harry

[billwatson2]

Good one, Artyman.

[Jim of the SRR]

I want to see all the dang furs out of camp sheesh this aint a mountain man event. The guys that do both mountain man and civil war set thier camps up the same way with the same stuff.
I want to see companies that don't have 2 officers 4 nco's and 3 privates.
I want to see all the mouchers stay home for a change- I get tired of the beggers asking for this or that--this ain't downtown Chicago, or an off ramp along the highway of any major city.

Still going to the wrong events?

Jim Butler

[Silas]

Good Beer, better pie, and pretty women for dancing partners. And not necessarily in that order. Multiple helpings of any of the above is fine, too.

[CameronsHighlander]

1) Officers and Color beares take hits.

2) I'm guilty here Cell phones stay out of sight

3) Give activites to the ladies I grow tired of working my butt off while they do little else then dance.. PS. no offence Ladies but after running around a battlefield I fairly tired so I rarely attend these any longer

[Linda Trent]

What I want is to see is honesty on the behalf of the organizer, (call a spade a spade). If an organizer doesn't want to put on an event like he/she advertises, don’t advertise it as such. Most of the negativity that follows an event is from attendees who were disappointed that the organizer made promises that were never met, and that the organizer never intended to meet.

That in itself would go a long way to helping me (and other attendees) make the decision to drive the distance and spend the weekend. I'm getting ready to attend an event in a few weeks where the organizer's been honest about what he's doing. I know pretty much what to expect, (which isn't what I'm used to) and decided I want to go anyway, to give my support and will plan accordingly.

Linda.

[Mint Julep]

So many events have the demos, the teas, the fashion shows, and such. What do you REALLY want to see scheduled?:confused:

I've read through this thread a couple of times. There are some funny answers here.

The only schedule at a reenactment for a military participant should be the military schedule. The bugle calls generally sound the current activities during the day.

Civilians ... well, at a mainstream event, I have no idea what civilians do. My ex went to events for 7 years and I never had a clue what she did at them or why she attended. However, at an immersion event, civilians seem to have a greater role to fill and that is the best way for them to enjoy an event.

The important thing here is that you are asking for suggestions. Why? There can only be one reason: you aren't satisfied with the samo-samo. Its time to challenge that status quo and look to greener pastures. Try an EBUFU event! Just try one. Go ahead, touch it, smell it, taste it, step in it! It don't make you queer to try it!

I bet you find a whole new experience.

[Linda Trent]

Try an EBUFU event! Just try one. Go ahead, touch it, smell it, taste it, step in it! It don't make you queer to try it! Betcha you can't attend just one. They're almost as addictive as a Lays potato chip. :rolleyes:

Linda
(who could've and should've resisted the urge to post) ;)

[CameronsHighlander]

Personally I'd like to see the Civilian Women working as nurses, Laundresses, Spys, even prostitutes. Instead of sitting around doing nothing.. As for Male Civilians I dont get them personally. I would like to see more Post battle things like Burial Parties, Medical, Prisoner Exchanges, and Court-Marshals. Pre battle Duels over women, Period Baseball games, Engineer demonstrations, Slightly more drilling, and Spectator stations to see soldiers doing period stuff (Cooking, writing or reading letters (from) home, and/or talking. I would like A fashion show style thing but better on the Uniform explain more why or this is the Uniform eg why the Zouaves wore the Red Pantaloons, what Chaussers were, why the 4th NH wore the Pit Helmit, why the 79th did not wear Kilts at Bull Run, and etc, not why there were X number of buttons people get bored fast everyone has a form of ADD, even I fell asleep watching Ken Burns Civil War. For Battles Artillery use Limber crews with Cassions, Cavalry Learn your tactics Saber duels were not as common as initially thought (book Cavalry at Gettysburg), Officers Use Sharpshooters Properly, Place Artillery in the proper locations, Infantry should know their Manuels I know Fresh Fish show up but use the Friday Afternoon after setup (if they are there to go over the Basics.) NCO's should know Hardees as well as an officer, A private should not need to explain it to the Corporal or Sgt (personal experience, I always get yoked with the new recruits, though I don't mind if I can impart my 15 years I am happy to do so.) By some of this a few reenactors will need to crack a book sorry guys but there is a handfull of people who do this that think the Sherra, Gingrich, Reasoner books, and the Movies are 100% accurate..

[Cove Rebel]

I want to see Pauline Cushman in a Major's uniform.


I'm so sorry fellas I just couldn't resist...I really really couldn't....:p :p :p

[wheres_my_horse]

I want to see Pauline Cushman in a Major's uniform.


I'm so sorry fellas I just couldn't resist...I really really couldn't....:p :p :p

Cove, you beat me to it...

Oh, and free pie.

[Cove Rebel]

Cove, you beat me to it...

Oh, and free pie.

Don't give your pie away with breakfast.....it makes you look cheap. ;) :D

[Mint Julep]

Personally I'd like to see the Civilian Women working as nurses, Laundresses, Spys, even prostitutes. Instead of sitting around doing nothing.. As for Male Civilians I dont get them personally. I would like to see more Post battle things like Burial Parties, Medical, Prisoner Exchanges, and Court-Marshals. Pre battle Duels over women, Period Baseball games, Engineer demonstrations, Slightly more drilling, and Spectator stations to see soldiers doing period stuff (Cooking, writing or reading letters (from) home, and/or talking. I would like A fashion show style thing but better on the Uniform explain more why or this is the Uniform eg why the Zouaves wore the Red Pantaloons, what Chaussers were, why the 4th NH wore the Pit Helmit, why the 79th did not wear Kilts at Bull Run, and etc, not why there were X number of buttons people get bored fast everyone has a form of ADD, even I fell asleep watching Ken Burns Civil War. For Battles Artillery use Limber crews with Cassions, Cavalry Learn your tactics Saber duels were not as common as initially thought (book Cavalry at Gettysburg), Officers Use Sharpshooters Properly, Place Artillery in the proper locations, Infantry should know their Manuels I know Fresh Fish show up but use the Friday Afternoon after setup (if they are there to go over the Basics.) NCO's should know Hardees as well as an officer, A private should not need to explain it to the Corporal or Sgt (personal experience, I always get yoked with the new recruits, though I don't mind if I can impart my 15 years I am happy to do so.) By some of this a few reenactors will need to crack a book sorry guys but there is a handfull of people who do this that think the Sherra, Gingrich, Reasoner books, and the Movies are 100% accurate..

Ernie,

You fascinate me. Really you do. Everytime I read one of your posts, I am left in a state of wonderment.

First, if you want to see civilians (male or female) do things besides sit around, go to better events. In fact, why don't you investigate the Boonesfield and Westville events that are happening and see if you can participate? I think you'd discover that the world is different outside the mainstream with it's sandwich-wrapping tent-sitters.

Second, you complain that some folks think the movies are real, yet you have a movie quote in your signature line. Can't you find an inspirational quote from a real Civil War soldier?

Third, the reasons any of those units may or may not have worn or not worn something isn't going to be found in a fashion show. It is going to be found in research. The research is going to show you what they did. There is no why or why not, there is only historic data.

Fourth, the activities you suggest happen all the time at quality EBUFU events. I've watched men play ball inside the walls of Ft. Pulaski where the only known photo of soldiers playing ball was taken. I've participated in engineering demonstrations building works, gabions and cheveaux-de-fris. I've been a prisoner waiting for exchange, sat on a court martial, and buried the dead. You could do these things, too, if you went to the right events.

My post isn't about Us vs Them or to bash mainstream. My point is that so many mainstreamers are posting lately about wanting to see more, to do more, to experience more and more is happening out there all the time. Take a leap of faith and try the EBUFU circuit of events. You don't have to cut ties to your unit, just find an event that interests you and go. The whole unit doesn't have to attend. Your leaders will call that blasphemy, but they need and count on your attendance at events for them to maintain their rank and if you start wandering away to better things, you might find out what a charlatan they are and they will have to recruit a replacement for you. Worse, you might tell some of the other guys what fun you've had and that poor captain will have to recruit an entire new company to keep in the dark so he can carry a sword. And if you don't think I'm telling the truth about that, just tell him you are going to an EBUFU event and see how the expression in his eyes change. He no longer trusts you.

You could do all the things you mention, plus tons more, if you just took a chance. You could have experiences that you haven't imagined, but it takes an open mind and a willingness to find out that some of what you've held to be near and dear and true is all complete BS.

The hardest thing about attending an EBUFU event is getting over the post event high.

[Bill_Cross]

The times I have agreed with Joe Smotherman can be counted on the fingers of one hand (maybe one finger), and I guess this is the one.

Most mainstreamers I know are as happy as pigs in #$%@ with the events they attend.

But if you aren't happy with the events you're attending, or want something more, then it's time to pitch in with people who are glad to have you try something different and willing to help you overcome your nerves and insecurities. An event in GA this November called "Sherman's Bummers" will be just one of those chances to get out of your comfort zone. We are happy to have first timers, and we don't bite. If you aren't sure you can do it, try it. We'll help you. Bill Rodman, one of the happiest mainstreamers I've ever known, is my sergeant for the event, and he's got excellent field craft. There's John "Tiny" Grimes, Glenn Milner, George Jurand, Jim "Pete" Peterson, Taylor McCullen, all of the Rowdy Pards, and some fine fellers from other groups and individually who are falling in with us for the event.

The entire event is something strange, since we'll be portraying foraging parties, not specific companies. You'll be kept busy, we'll be doing solderly things, and it's no shoot-em-up or Vietnam-style search-and-destroy small unit battle.

This isn't an "us vs. them" thing. It's that for those who want a different experience, well, that different experience is out there waiting for you.

[Mint Julep]

The times I have agreed with Joe Smotherman can be counted on the fingers of one hand (maybe one finger), and I guess this is the one.




Oh, Bill, you know you've held up one finger to me in the past! ;)

[CameronsHighlander]

1st I don't even know where these events you mention are..

2nd Im not a big Civilian reenactor person I never do that never will if Im forced to that point I'll just quit. I like events where they have no Civilians September Storm was a great event, because it was the way a Reenactment should be..

3rd I picked that like because it's accurate.. So you must be one of those that Takes Gods and Generals for Gospel. My reference about that Movie statement is people who go to events and are reenactors and say "Eastern Theater Soldiers never wore Hardee Hats, Western theater did" or "Massachusetts had no Zouaves, only New York and Pennsylvania did"
both of these statements are False the Iron Brigade wore Hardees, and we all know Zouaves were from nearly every Norther states. I have no qualms about correcting people who think they know everything..

[hanktrent]

1st I don't even know where these events you mention are..

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5


2nd Im not a big Civilian reenactor person I never do that never will if Im forced to that point I'll just quit. I like events where they have no Civilians September Storm was a great event, because it was the way a Reenactment should be..

Huh? September Storm was full of civilians. Even I found them annoying, and I like civilians. I was a private assigned to the CS medical department and headquarters, and they were coming and going along the road through camp at all hours. Nobody stopped them or checked their passes. I only saw one group that looked like they fit into the period situation.

If you don't like what you see of civilians at mainstream events, I think you'd like events a lot better where you only interact with civilians the way a soldier would, if at all.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Linda Trent]

2nd Im not a big Civilian reenactor person I never do that never will if Im forced to that point I'll just quit. Ouch! :rolleyes:

I'm assuming that you'd quit before becoming a civilian because of what you see at non-history heavy events. Civilians sitting around on their hands doing basically nothing. Yep, I didn't like that either, and almost left the hobby, but that was before the more history heavy style of event came about, and before we got our computer and could find other like-minded civilians from across the US.

But if you want to see civilians actually doing something period correct I'd suggest going to events like Westville next year. I'll be there working my tail off at the local boarding house. :evil: I'll be assisting in the cooking, serving, doing dishes, cleaning, etc. for those who are staying at the boarding house. When I did similar things at The Inn at Peak's Mill and the 1864 Kentucky Trial event my work was from about 5AM to about 11PM with only about 30 minutes total in there to catch a breath.

At the latter two events the day started with getting the cook-fire started back up, empting the guests' chamber pots, and making beds, tightening the ropes on the beds, filling all the stone crock water containers, making sure to freshen the salt pork and soak the beans, grinding the coffee, and getting it ready, cooking three full meals (pork, gravy, vegetables, bread, water, dessert, etc.), serving the meals and waiting upon the guests while they ate (fetching them a glass or water, or whatever they needed), then gulping down our own food (the leftovers) before having to wash and put away all the dishes, and tending to the noon-day meal (which was already on the fire) at the same time. By the time the dishes were all put away it was time to reset the table for the noon meal and start most all of the above all over again, dittos on the evening meal. All the while that we were cooking, cleaning, etc., we were also tending to our guests' personal needs which might include getting them a glass of lemonade, or again, whatever they needed, and in the evenings we ran the 'bar' (though we didn't serve real alcohol). The gentlemen were permitted to smoke real cigars and/or spit. The male employees also carried our guests' luggage upstairs and down when they arrived and departed. As staff we were on-call 24/7 during the events. I'm imagining something very similar for Westville next year.

But it was great! We were busy doing period appropriate things, in a period appropriate situation, around others who contributed to the entire experience by having us wait on them. :cool: Would this be something you'd quit over? Dunno, but it certainly helped to keep me in the hobby as long as I have been.

Linda.

[Mint Julep]

1st I don't even know where these events you mention are..

2nd Im not a big Civilian reenactor person I never do that never will if Im forced to that point I'll just quit. I like events where they have no Civilians September Storm was a great event, because it was the way a Reenactment should be..

3rd I picked that like because it's accurate.. So you must be one of those that Takes Gods and Generals for Gospel. My reference about that Movie statement is people who go to events and are reenactors and say "Eastern Theater Soldiers never wore Hardee Hats, Western theater did" or "Massachusetts had no Zouaves, only New York and Pennsylvania did"
both of these statements are False the Iron Brigade wore Hardees, and we all know Zouaves were from nearly every Norther states. I have no qualms about correcting people who think they know everything..

Again, I'm fascinated. You absolutely fail to comprehend what I've said.

These events I speak of are known as the EBUFU circuit of events. They are not primarily advertised on this forum, nor in the Courier. Your unit commander will not present them to you at the annual meeting. You will need to visit the authentic-campaigner.com to find the listings. These events have standards of dress and action that are based on researched historical information and attempt to create an environment and atmosphere that allows the participant to get a sense of "this is what 186X must have been like". It isn't perfect, but it is much better than the mainstream events with rows of sutlers, concessions, loudspeaker announcements, rows of portajohns and nothing to do. You really seem unhappy with the events you've attended and I really think you'd find the EBUFU events interesting.

As for being a civilian reenactor, no one has asked you to do so. But, after 32 years of military reenacting, I have started participating in some civilian events and have found the roles very interesting and the activities stimulating. Again, if you have never experienced civilian reenactors actually reenacting daily life, then you aren't able to comprehend what I'm saying. Look at Linda Trent's post about her daily work at an event running an inn. She wasn't sitting on her hands. At the last Westville event, I was the postal clerk and I was constantly making the rounds of town delivering the mail. I was exhausted at the end of the day and had a great time. I plan to do the same thing at the next Westville event.

Don't knock being a civilian reenactor unless you've tried it. But don't try it at a mainstream event, or you will be bored.

As for the movies, you have me all wrong. I generally don't watch Civil War movies since I find fault with everything in them. I do like "Ride with the Devil", but I don't think it is gospel. No, Ernie, I don't use movies as examples. I can read and have read and continue to read. I also learn through actions, so attending the better events has become a great classroom for me.

I guess my point in my original post to you was that you are seemingly bored with mainstream reenacting. I was suggesting you try something new that might give you a more interesting hobby. But I guess you just want to complain about how boring your hobby is. So I have to ask, why not just quit now and save yourself the aggravation?

For someone who is so obviously unhappy with what he sees at the events he attends, why are you so close-minded to encouragement to improve?

[Capt. Lewis]

I appreciate the many comments my query has prompted! Now here's the 'however'...isn't it amazing how even with the 'simple' query I posted we've run all around the barn? Is it not possible for any group of reenactors to simply answer the question and NOT opionize to the point where lines get drawn in the sand, again??

My purpose in asking the original question is that a new small event hosted by a local historical venue is in the planning stages as we speak. So, what do you REALLY want to do at a new small event? Personally, I have found over the years that the ladies' teas seem to be poorly attended, so do you plan one or not?? Over the years the guys grumble about doing another demo, "I'd rather eat my shorts" sort of thing.... Get my drift?

As far as the reenactors, civy or soldier, wanting to go to 'better' events...an event organizer can only do so much given their budgets and such...it's up to US to DO this stuff. As an event organizer I can help facilitate certain things, but I can't MAKE anyone take hits, sleep under the stars, or brew the morning joe. WE do this stuff....so my soapbox statement is this....If you want a better event, help make it a better event. Piney Woods would have SUCKED if nobody attended or everybody bitched about how 'bad' it was. But the folks who went...THEY made it a good event. :grin:

So, how 'bout we help make another one good?

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Wet T-Shirt contests. ect.
Come on you were all thinking about it.

[50th vice pres]

I want to see all the dang furs out of camp sheesh this aint a mountain man event. The guys that do both mountain man and civil war set thier camps up the same way with the same stuff.
I want to see companies that don't have 2 officers 4 nco's and 3 privates.
I want to see all the mouchers stay home for a change- I get tired of the beggers asking for this or that--this ain't downtown Chicago, or an off ramp along the highway of any major city.

Whats wrong Cris? No like furs or more officers than privates? :lol: I agree about both, but I live with any scenario. But I will admit that furs on some of those hard wood seats DO make them softer, and a lot easier on the ol' kiester!

[50th vice pres]

Personally I'd like to see the Civilian Women working as nurses, Laundresses, Spys, even prostitutes.

Well, at least tax free prostitutes!:D

[hanktrent]

If you want a better event, help make it a better event. Piney Woods would have SUCKED if nobody attended or everybody bitched about how 'bad' it was. But the folks who went...THEY made it a good event. :grin:

So, how 'bout we help make another one good?

Here's a good example. I'm going to a small, new, sorta local event soon as a private. It's aimed at reenactors in the surrounding area, though of course nobody who wanted to come from a thousand miles away would be barred, but that's just not gonna happen.

The organizer and my sergeant (and I) have agreed that if certain historically accurate things are done, which would actually require less cost and less organization, the target audience of reenactors won't like it and/or won't come, because they don't want that level of accuracy.

While I can and will do what I want as much as possible to make it a "better event" for me, at a certain point soldiers are expected to do things as a unit. How can I help make it a "better event" by my definition, if it would make it a worse event for others?

Oops, back to the philosophical discussion again. :( But it's an honest question.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[captdougofky]

Here's a good example. I'm going to a small, new, sorta local event soon as a private. It's aimed at reenactors in the surrounding area, though of course nobody who wanted to come from a thousand miles away would be barred, but that's just not gonna happen.

The organizer and my sergeant (and I) have agreed that if certain historically accurate things are done, which would actually require less cost and less organization, the target audience of reenactors won't like it and/or won't come, because they don't want that level of accuracy.

While I can and will do what I want as much as possible to make it a "better event" for me, at a certain point soldiers are expected to do things as a unit. How can I help make it a "better event" by my definition, if it would make it a worse event for others?

Oops, back to the philosophical discussion again. :( But it's an honest question.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com


People vote with their feet. One needs only to see what works in Kentucky by looking at Sacramento. It may not be your cup of tea, but the coffee crowd of the Commonwealth seems to enjoy it.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Battery CS

[tompritchett]

Something that is not often done at small events that would be far more appropriate for the numbers is a battle of skirmishers only without any battlelines at all. Remember, often times whole regiments were set out as skirmishers both in the attack and in the defense. Also in the skirmishing, set up a reserve and use their skillful deployment as one of the factors that determines the winner of the battle. It is something that will likely challenge the reenactors as many units do little or no skirmish drill practicing.

[OVI]

I think alot depends upon which market your event is trying to attract (and hopefully please). By that I mean is the event about the reenactors and what they want as an experience for the weekend or is the event about the "show" for the paying spectators? It has been my experience over the years that usually event organizers who are concerned about the later, expect the reenactors and their commanders/coordinators to flesh out the activities for the participants. This invariably leads to the samo-samo unless some creative folks come up with something different.
A couple of years ago at a now defunct event in Ohio, the organizers devised a sort of "treasure hunt" where each side was searching for a hidden cache. It was hokey but it offered the units and their commanders a specific mission to perform, which was a step above what commonly occurs at events.
I think Joe has identified the underlying problem. Reenactors lose interest very quickly after a couple of years of the same "battle, beer, and ball" events and sadly they move right out the hobby partly because the hobby dynamics denies them the opportunity to ever experience an event that offers more of what they may be looking for. These events and the creative hard-working folks who put them on are out there. And even these events have different levels. In most cases the biggest upgrade necessary to try one is attitude.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[captdougofky]

I think alot depends upon which market your event is trying to attract (and hopefully please). By that I mean is the event about the reenactors and what they want as an experience for the weekend or is the event about the "show" for the paying spectators? It has been my experience over the years that usually event organizers who are concerned about the later, expect the reenactors and their commanders/coordinators to flesh out the activities for the participants. This invariably leads to the samo-samo unless some creative folks come up with something different.
A couple of years ago at a now defunct event in Ohio, the organizers devised a sort of "treasure hunt" where each side was searching for a hidden cache. It was hokey but it offered the units and their commanders a specific mission to perform, which was a step above what commonly occurs at events.
I think Joe has identified the underlying problem. Reenactors lose interest very quickly after a couple of years of the same "battle, beer, and ball" events and sadly they move right out the hobby partly because the hobby dynamics denies them the opportunity to ever experience an event that offers more of what they may be looking for. These events and the creative hard-working folks who put them on are out there. And even these events have different levels. In most cases the biggest upgrade necessary to try one is attitude.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

I would agree except and I know it may get old but Sacramento, has limited ground in which to play on. The numbers that show up in all branches pushes it to the limited. Basically the same battle for fifteen years. Its the town and how we as reenactors are treated that bring us together every year. Largest reenactment in Kentucky, they must be doing something right. Most Battles if you can make them last a hour your doing good. I think the word appreciation for us as reenactors and our effort has not gone unnoticed there. It makes you want to return, regardless of the Battle. This year they had what I think was the largest crowd (paying public) yet. Weather was kind to us for a change. I've only missed two of the fifteen events.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons Battery CS
Kentucky

[hanktrent]

People vote with their feet. One needs only to see what works in Kentucky by looking at Sacramento. It may not be your cup of tea, but the coffee crowd of the Commonwealth seems to enjoy it.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Battery CS

And yet, ironically, I predict there will be fewer people at this event than at Into the Piney Woods.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[captdougofky]

And yet, ironically, I predict there will be fewer people at this event than at Into the Piney Woods.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com


I was using events in Kentucky as my example. Piney Woods-is it held every year? Gettysburg GAC 15 thousand (145th.). This year based on a comment by a individual going 1500 hundred. I was using Sacramento because its a annual event. Bummers sounds like a great event for that side of the hobby. Unless I'm wrong its not a annual event. Does Piney Woods as I ask in the first part of this post, Annual?

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[hanktrent]

I was using events in Kentucky as my example. Piney Woods-is it held every year? Gettysburg GAC 15 thousand (145th.). This year based on a comment by a individual going 1500 hundred. I was using Sacramento because its a annual event. Bummers sound like a great event for that side of the hobby but unless I'm wrong its not a annual event. Does Piney Woods as I ask in the first part of this post, Annual?

No, I think something like Piney Woods would get pretty boring if it was the same historic situation and same 30-mile loop every year. That's part of what makes those events great, in my opinion--they're all different.

If popularity is what matters, then Civil War reenacting is a hobby for losers. Going to rock concerts or watching professional sports are hobbies that regularly attract way more participants, multiple times a year, than any reenactment.

Which is why I don't think popularity matters; it's about giving a good experience to the participants who do attend, however many or few.

That's why I don't think there can be a single answer to what reenactors want. It's good to listen to their ideas, but one has to make sure the answers are coming from the same kinds of reenactors who'll actually be attending the event in question.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[captdougofky]

No, I think something like Piney Woods would get pretty boring if it was the same historic situation and same 30-mile loop every year. That's part of what makes those events great, in my opinion--they're all different.

If popularity is what matters, then Civil War reenacting is a hobby for losers. Going to rock concerts or watching professional sports are hobbies that regularly attract way more participants, multiple times a year, than any reenactment.

Which is why I don't think popularity matters; it's about giving a good experience to the participants who do attend, however many or few.

That's why I don't think there can be a single answer to what reenactors want. It's good to listen to their ideas, but one has to make sure the answers are coming from the same kinds of reenactors who'll actually be attending the event in question.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com


I agree, Sacramento and events like that appeal to a certain segment of the hobby. Myself being one. As far as Losers are concerned, I don't we have any. We are all trying to promote the History of our country. We may not drive the same car to get there. I guess its like eating a good batch of ribs. I do that every year, year after year. It does not get old, but your right. Not everyone know how to cook them.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[pvt_jb]

I want to see companies that don't have 2 officers 4 nco's and 3 privates.

This would require groups to do advance planning together before the event or have their elected NCOs and officers bring other uniforms to an event. You fall in together and rotate which group is suppling the NCOs and officers and/or you use a mix. But most feel they have a right to wear the rank and will not give it up very happily. I am starting to see more of this in Michigan but only with certain groups. I can only hope it continues (or netter yet a surge in attendence no longer require consolidation but then I pray that groups properly train their new men).

[Artyman]

Hank,

The organizer you mention is right about one thing. While accuracy in the small stuff is important, especially to us, the crowd expects certain things whether it was actually done there or not. Like a battle or tactical, for an example. Even a one unit show is expected to shoot and make noise.

Harry

[FloridaConfederate]

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii312/floridaconfederate/balloon.jpg

[Linda Trent]

Gettysburg GAC 15 thousand (145th.). This year based on a comment by a individual going 1500 hundred.Of course I doubt one could ever get the numbers of a five and ten year on a one to four, six to nine year. Especially if people are saving up to do one or more of the five year anniversary events this year. :rolleyes:

So to compare apples to apples one would have to compare the attendance of normal year events.

Linda.

[Artyman]

Jeremy,

You will find this amusing, but back many years ago we all knew a guy (I won't mention his name 'cuz he'd want me to!) who carried a little box to the events. In this box was every rank badge there was. He also had all the frocks. This guy would show up at the officer call, see who wore the highest rank, then leave, go to his box, and put on a higher rank, then return to the meeting and try (sometimes successfully I might ad) to take over the proceedings. It was funny, and we all knew about it, but he still did it right up till the last time I saw him at an event at Fort Frederick.

By the way, he had no unit to speak of. He was down to a fine old gal who went with him everywhere he went and small body guard of two or three men. He was not the worst officer I knew, but was far from the best. He got away with it by delegating most of the commands to the guys who brought the troops and knew what was going on. All he wanted was to pose as the commander!

We didn't tolerate this in my neck of the woods, but the farther east you got the more they did tolerate him.

PS, he also did "Ben Franklin". Even got on a documentary doing ole Ben in the early 80's.

Harry

[hanktrent]

Hank,

The organizer you mention is right about one thing. While accuracy in the small stuff is important, especially to us, the crowd expects certain things whether it was actually done there or not. Like a battle or tactical, for an example. Even a one unit show is expected to shoot and make noise.


I was told by both the organizer and my sergeant that the tactical wasn't necessarily for the spectators. It was because the reenactors would be unhappy without it. Again, different people want to do different things at reenactments.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[captdougofky]

Of course I doubt one could ever get the numbers of a five and ten year on a one to four, six to nine year. Especially if people are saving up to do one or more of the five year anniversary events this year. :rolleyes:

So to compare apples to apples one would have to compare the attendance of normal year events.

Linda.

I agree, on average. The big events or special ones build up over time. Annual events in Kentucky was my base line. Gettysburg 145th-Gettysburg-146th. It would not be fair to compare one to the other. Their next Mega event will be the 150th. The regular posters here support that comment I'm sure. I say that based on their postings and experience with that event, not mine.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[OVI]

Gettysburg is probably the anomaly in the hobby as it is the only sustaining strictly for-profit event. And because Gettysburg maybe the only place in America pretty much given over to its role in the Civil War; the town, battlefield, reenactment etc are all part and parcel of the Gettysburg experience for thousands of folks including enough reenactors to have the event every year. The other larger annual events mentioned, Cedar Creek & New Market, are run for preservation funding purposes and seem to draw respectable numbers each year. I cant speak about Atlanta as I know little of its history as an event or its numbers from one year to another.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[flattop32355]

I was told by both the organizer and my sergeant that the tactical wasn't necessarily for the spectators. It was because the reenactors would be unhappy without it. Again, different people want to do different things at reenactments.

Disclaimer: I'm the sergeant.

Part of it is to appeal to the mainstream reenactors who will possibily have a hard time staying in the prisoner-of-war character required to do the main part of the event.

The other part is to show the owner/manager of the site what we're capable of doing, so he'll let us play on that ground in future years, should it prove adequate to our needs.

[captdougofky]

Disclaimer: I'm the sergeant.

Part of it is to appeal to the mainstream reenactors who will possibily have a hard time staying in the prisoner-of-war character required to do the main part of the event.

The other part is to show the owner/manager of the site what we're capable of doing, so he'll let us play on that ground in future years, should it prove adequate to our needs.



What event are you doing? Johnson Island-Camp Douglas? When I saw POW, I thought of the History Channel. The Camp Douglas documentary. Something different. Good Luck.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[Poor Private]

This would require groups to do advance planning together before the event or have their elected NCOs and officers bring other uniforms to an event. You fall in together and rotate which group is suppling the NCOs and officers and/or you use a mix. But most feel they have a right to wear the rank and will not give it up very happily. I am starting to see more of this in Michigan but only with certain groups. I can only hope it continues (or netter yet a surge in attendence no longer require consolidation but then I pray that groups properly train their new men).

Consolidating with other units yes is the way to go.
BUT the idea of rotating rank personell don't/won't work. What unit that has 30 troops is going to allow Cpt. Joe Blow of the smaller unit command them. If he wants to command troops then he has to get more troops it's not our fault his unit is on 5 guys. Why don't we let that guy who just walked on the field run the whole shebang after all he is wearing the eagle on his shoulder?
Hey I voted for Jack Smith to command me, this guy with 3 troops I have no idea who he is, I don't know if he knows the orders/commands, let alone how safe he is-I will and do stay in camp. If he was any kind of commander he would be working to increase his unit size.
I know of a one who did this he started out as the f. sarge of his unit next thing you know he was an independant and and officer(rumor has it he was asked to leave his unit). Now we see him on the staff of a larger umbrella unit and his rank continues to grow last time I saw him he was a major. He shows up at the smaller events expecting to be in charge because he has this rank at the umbrella unit even tho the officer were set prior to the event by either the host unit, or event coordinator. If you want to command troops bring your own to an event.
I see once that a person has reached a certain rank he no longer will take the field as anything as other than an officer. Don't tell me that you do when I and others know better. After a while you lose the respect, and all credibility of command of the troops.
Don't show up at an event troopless and expect to command troops or be on the staff just because you have those shoulder straps.
Should a person who commands no troops or very few, or is the only person from his unit to show up at an event expect to be wearing a officers uniform and either command troops, or be on the staff? It's not our fault he's there alone. Either toss on a privates coat, or go stand behind the ropes.
Nothing like seeing a Colonel, who has on his staff(10-15), an adjutant, several runners, the sargent major, the medical head, the bugler, officers not attached to any unit, and toss in in a couple of bible thumpers, command less than 1-200 men. How realistic is this??
I want a command staff and command rank that equals the actual troop size that shows up to an event.
There has even been a couple discusions at events on "fragging the officer" just to get rid of him.
I know of one event where the Col. in charge was captured by the other side. When the adj. yelled something about they have your colonel go get him back- we said keep him we don't want him, about 10 minutes later he wandered back- CAN'T HE TAKE A HINT?? we don't want you and I guess neither does the other side.
Sometimes it is not the event that is the reason that people don't want to attend it's the designated overall commanders and thier staffs that the troops are tired of following.
NOW on to the brighter side...... 2 weekends ago 1 captain showed up at an event and none of his own unit showed guess what, he pulled out a privates coat and ended up beign trained to work a cannon- he had a great experience, he learned something new, and saw the battle from a different perspective.

[hanktrent]

Consolidating with other units yes is the way to go.
BUT the idea of rotating rank personell don't/won't work. What unit that has 30 troops is going to allow Cpt. Joe Blow of the smaller unit command them.

Hopefully some of the organizers will explain how they do it, but from my vantage point on the outside looking in, it seems that at c/p/h events, the organizers pick the men who they want to be officers for the event ahead of time, based on the number needed for what will be portrayed, and everyone else registers individually as a private.

I'm oversimplifying I'm sure, but I don't notice a lot of friction about how many officers there are, or how to get fewer officers and more privates, in c/p/h event discussions.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[hanktrent]

Doug, here's (http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13809)the link to the event announcement.


Part of it is to appeal to the mainstream reenactors who will possibily have a hard time staying in the prisoner-of-war character required to do the main part of the event.

The other part is to show the owner/manager of the site what we're capable of doing, so he'll let us play on that ground in future years, should it prove adequate to our needs.

And I've got no problem with that. I'm justing hoping to find a way to do what I enjoy while not interfering with what others enjoy, and vice versa. My main reasons for going are because I have a particular interest in the original prisoners, I already have an impression ready to go, and not least, because it seems like an almost impossible interpretive challenge, so I admire the sheer guts of an organizer trying to pull it off, and I feel like taking the chance, doing my best, and seeing what happens. :D

But it's a good example of how improving an event or giving participants what they'd really like to do, is so subjective.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[flattop32355]

Hopefully some of the organizers will explain how they do it, but from my vantage point on the outside looking in, it seems that at c/p/h events, the organizers pick the men who they want to be officers for the event ahead of time, based on the number needed for what will be portrayed, and everyone else registers individually as a private.

That's one of the differences between the cph folk and the mainstream; All the officers, from commander to corporal, are pre-set before the event at cph events. This is easy to do, as you know who you're dealing with and what the numbers will look like. You're not dealing with "units" showing up, but individuals.

In the mainstream, things are more fluid. You are dealing with units instead of individuals for the most part, nearly all with their own inherent company commanders and NCO's. While the overall commanders (field command and staff) is pre-set, it's not so for the individual companies/units who come. Each of those likes to have its own people in charge of its own people, and only tend to fall in with another unit if their own commanders aren't present.

Sometimes this holds true even if the unit only has a very few people present. Consolidation is a better way to go (we do it when needed), but are always careful with whom we're willing to be attached; not everyone else is someone we want to fall in with, due to different philosophies and training/safety levels.

[captdougofky]

Artillery-Cross Roads

We had a lot of different Batterys there, We for the most part know each other. We worked together to form a section. The overall section Command for US (Federal) was Robert K. of Baxters Battery-46th Tenn. Known Commander whose gun crew is second to none. Worked out great. Having said that, another event overall Federal Artillery Command was a unknown and somewhat of a Idiot. We the gun owners resolved that with the help of the overall Federal Commander. Communication I think is the key here. Artillery and the safety concerns we have as a Branch, we don't have much in the way of wiggle room. If you have someone in command who for what ever reason is not up to par, remove him. If not the next year the event organizers may be looking at smaller numbers. Vote with your feet.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Battery CS
Kentucky

[RJSamp]

That's one of the differences between the cph folk and the mainstream; All the officers, from commander to corporal, are pre-set before the event at cph events. This is easy to do, as you know who you're dealing with and what the numbers will look like. You're not dealing with "units" showing up, but individuals.


Your and Hank's points very valid....but you still end up with Colonels, dismounted, commanding 2-3 companies totalling under 100 rifles. How about a senior captain instead?

[Jim of the SRR]

Consolidating with other units yes is the way to go.
BUT the idea of rotating rank personell don't/won't work. What unit that has 30 troops is going to allow Cpt. Joe Blow of the smaller unit command them. If he wants to command troops then he has to get more troops it's not our fault his unit is on 5 guys. Why don't we let that guy who just walked on the field run the whole shebang after all he is wearing the eagle on his shoulder?
Hey I voted for Jack Smith to command me, this guy with 3 troops I have no idea who he is, I don't know if he knows the orders/commands, let alone how safe he is-I will and do stay in camp. If he was any kind of commander he would be working to increase his unit size.
I know of a one who did this he started out as the f. sarge of his unit next thing you know he was an independant and and officer(rumor has it he was asked to leave his unit). Now we see him on the staff of a larger umbrella unit and his rank continues to grow last time I saw him he was a major. He shows up at the smaller events expecting to be in charge because he has this rank at the umbrella unit even tho the officer were set prior to the event by either the host unit, or event coordinator. If you want to command troops bring your own to an event.
I see once that a person has reached a certain rank he no longer will take the field as anything as other than an officer. Don't tell me that you do when I and others know better. After a while you lose the respect, and all credibility of command of the troops.
Don't show up at an event troopless and expect to command troops or be on the staff just because you have those shoulder straps.
Should a person who commands no troops or very few, or is the only person from his unit to show up at an event expect to be wearing a officers uniform and either command troops, or be on the staff? It's not our fault he's there alone. Either toss on a privates coat, or go stand behind the ropes.
Nothing like seeing a Colonel, who has on his staff(10-15), an adjutant, several runners, the sargent major, the medical head, the bugler, officers not attached to any unit, and toss in in a couple of bible thumpers, command less than 1-200 men. How realistic is this??
I want a command staff and command rank that equals the actual troop size that shows up to an event.
There has even been a couple discusions at events on "fragging the officer" just to get rid of him.
I know of one event where the Col. in charge was captured by the other side. When the adj. yelled something about they have your colonel go get him back- we said keep him we don't want him, about 10 minutes later he wandered back- CAN'T HE TAKE A HINT?? we don't want you and I guess neither does the other side.
Sometimes it is not the event that is the reason that people don't want to attend it's the designated overall commanders and thier staffs that the troops are tired of following.
NOW on to the brighter side...... 2 weekends ago 1 captain showed up at an event and none of his own unit showed guess what, he pulled out a privates coat and ended up beign trained to work a cannon- he had a great experience, he learned something new, and saw the battle from a different perspective.

Still going to the wrong events?

Jim Butler

[tompritchett]

Still going to the wrong events?

Regardless of how applicable that statement might be for a given thread, I am sure that several members are starting to find that stock little quip a tad tiresome.

[captdougofky]

Regardless of how applicable that statement might be for a given thread, I am sure that several members are starting to find that stock little quip a tad tiresome.


Thanks-new material anyone.

Always Doug

[Rob Weaver]

I've attended events with only a few of my unit, but wearing my sergeant's stripes. Units have graciously allowed me to step in as 1st sergeant for the larger unit. The effect was great: I had to learn and do different things; the unit got used to new NCO leadership and everything went really well. Perhaps something like that could be done with the officer leadership, if egos could be put on the shelf for a while.

[Capt. Lewis]

As asked....new material....As an infantryman, what piece of gear (besides musket) would you like to win in a raffle? Same question for artillery (no limbers, guns or such, LOL), cavalry (alas no horses or saddles), officers (no junior officers), and civilians (can't come up with a quip, darn).

[captdougofky]

As asked....new material....As an infantryman, what piece of gear (besides musket) would you like to win in a raffle? Same question for artillery (no limbers, guns or such, LOL), cavalry (alas no horses or saddles), officers (no junior officers), and civilians (can't come up with a quip, darn).

I'll go for a new sponge bucket, there running about 175 now or more.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[Pvt Schnapps]

Pauline Cushman. Oh wait -- I thought the question was WHO...

[Poor Private]

A period correct holster cor my Texas Colt Paterson pistol with a 9" barrrel. Or a nice set boots from a reputable maker.

[Jim of the SRR]

Regardless of how applicable that statement might be for a given thread, I am sure that several members are starting to find that stock little quip a tad tiresome.

Sure it is, but so is folks complaining about farby stuff that happens at events, yet they continue to go to the same events.
Point taken, back to hitting yourselves again.

Jim Butler

[dale beasley]

I want to march again, and enjoy the hobby like I use to, and have my sons learn about history.

[flattop32355]

Your and Hank's points very valid....but you still end up with Colonels, dismounted, commanding 2-3 companies totalling under 100 rifles. How about a senior captain instead?

I'll take this one in two parts:

1) I'll willingly give ground on the mounted issue; not a lot of fellows are trained to ride (much less own or have ready access to a horse/trailer/etc.), and I'd rather they be on foot if that's the case. Additionally, I'd not be surprised if the NPS discourages the use of horses for LH's on their sites due to the waste factors, if not for other reasons as well. For EBUFU's on private property, it would depend upon the owner's rulings and the proficiency of the potential rider.

2) Senior captain would be fine, although I might be correct to argue for a major for 2-3 companies.

[flattop32355]

As asked....new material....As an infantryman, what piece of gear (besides musket) would you like to win in a raffle? Same question for artillery (no limbers, guns or such, LOL), cavalry (alas no horses or saddles), officers (no junior officers), and civilians (can't come up with a quip, darn).

I'd expect that meant new material germaine to the original subject, rather than a related, but totally new question.

Your question might be better served as an entirely new thread, where the question is more visible.

[Spinster]

As asked....new material....As an infantryman, what piece of gear (besides musket) would you like to win in a raffle? ..............and civilians (can't come up with a quip, darn).

For civilians, reasonable raffle items would include:

Tinware -pans, pitchers, no cups, such as pictured here: http://www.ezrabarnhousegoods.com/Products_pg_2.html

A good small wooden box, dovetailed with closure. Not one of those boxes with a chinese latch that are increasingly seen because they are inexpensive.

Good bottles with period labels. Or an assorted package of printed labels from documented sources.

Notice that none of these civilian raffle items are 'gender specific'.

Please don't hand me another farb set of costume earrings out of some sutler's junk drawer. I would not wear them to a catfight, never mind an event. I end up throwing such into my Goodwill box, right along with that pretty dress that suffered an unexplainable case of closet shrinkage.

[plankmaker]

Someone really ought to put together a Power Point presentation that goes over all of these things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cagxPlVqrtM

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[Pvt_VP]

I want to enjoy myself, as well as teach the public about history and the life of the common soldier. To this end, I would like to see things which would normally occur, such as armed escorts when needed, guards picketed, and a realistic battle scenario.

[TheQM]

"Sherman's Bummers" will be just one of those chances to get out of your comfort zone. We are happy to have first timers, and we don't bite. If you aren't sure you can do it, try it. We'll help you. Bill Rodman, one of the happiest mainstreamers I've ever known, is my sergeant for the event, and he's got excellent field craft.


Jeeze Bill X,

Now I have to change my signature block again! Funny thing, I don't consider myself a mainstreamer or campaigner, just a reenactor who attends a lot of events with various degrees of authenticity and different goals.

The last authentic Civil War soldier died about sixty years ago.

[Mint Julep]

... I would like to see things which would normally occur ...

Which means that you are currently seeing things that did not normally occur?

As Jim Butler asks:

Still goen to the wrong events?

The great difference between the mainstream events and the higher-end, invitation-only, EBUFU events is that the EBUFU events focus on doing things as they would have normally been done. That is accomplished through research, standards and a game plan.

Again, I'm going to suggest that if you aren't getting what you want from the events you currently attend, try an EBUFU. Be willing to take a little constructive criticism on your kit, maybe borrow some items to meet the standard and attend with an open mind. I guaranty you will go home and tell your friends about a great event.

Try it, you'll like it.

[captdougofky]

I want to enjoy myself, as well as teach the public about history and the life of the common soldier. To this end, I would like to see things which would normally occur, such as armed escorts when needed, guards picketed, and a realistic battle scenario.

Battle scenario's being more realistic, would be nice. To often at the smaller events trying to do a Battle is almost a joke. A living History would work better, due to the lack of Troops. Shiloh with fifty troops on each side just isn't the same. The organizers want a Battle so we always try. Results vary, but I think the paying public would learn more with the LH approach as opposed to the Battle scenario. Advertise the event as a encampment not Battle so as not to mislead.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[captdougofky]

Which means that you are currently seeing things that did not normally occur?

As Jim Butler asks:


The great difference between the mainstream events and the higher-end, invitation-only, EBUFU events is that the EBUFU events focus on doing things as they would have normally been done. That is accomplished through research, standards and a game plan.

Again, I'm going to suggest that if you aren't getting what you want from the events you currently attend, try an EBUFU. Be willing to take a little constructive criticism on your kit, maybe borrow some items to meet the standard and attend with an open mind. I guaranty you will go home and tell your friends about a great event.

Try it, you'll like it.

Do the events EBUFU have Artillery at times. I don't worry about my Cannon or uniforms etc. but without horses how could I play. I'm a static gun. The living History events where you guys are static, yes but say a event like BUMMERS coming up. Would static Artillery have a role. For the CPH side of the hobby the BUMMERS event looks to be a good one. I hope they have better weather than we did at Brices Crossroads. Good event but if Mother Nature had been a bit nicer, we could have played Sunday.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[WestTN_reb]

Umpired tacticals so that the decisions made on the field really matter.

I'm actually working on something along these lines in Mississippi. I'm shooting for the Spring of 2011, maybe earlier.

[Rob Weaver]

I'm actually working on something along these lines in Mississippi. I'm shooting for the Spring of 2011, maybe earlier.
I've got a set of rules if yo'd like them.

[Pvt Schnapps]

I'd like to go to some place out in the country without too many modern intrusions, meet up with some friends, walk a few miles, sleep on the ground -- ideally near some woods where people won't miss the occasional superfluous scrub cedar cut down for bedding -- cook some coffee, maybe shoot some friends in different uniforms, walk some more, all the while being able to act like I'm really back 145 years ago.

If I run into some civilians somewhere along the way, acting like they're back 145 years ago, it's even better.

I'd like to do it all in cool dry weather, too :)

Moving around is a big thing, though, and so is the opportunity to do a little first person.

I'm less enthusiastic about doing anything that I could do somewhere else, like drinking, shopping, singing songs about the IRA, or having more stuff than I can carry on my back.

But I can have fun at those events, too. It's all good.

Do you hear me, Bill X? IT'S ALL GOOD! :)

[Mint Julep]

Doug,

I can't tell you what the organizers of Bummers have in mind since I am not one of them.

However, I've done dozens of "static" EBUFU events, typically living history things at forts and parks. The last event I did at Fort Granger in Franklin had 3 or 4 guns invited with the purpose of training the infantry on the positions of the gun, which was a documented activity at Granger during the War. There were no horses at that event.

At Pickett's Mill a few years ago, some fellows ran a gun all over the place by prolong. They didn't NEED horses!!!

The guns used at the Rich Mountain event a couple of years ago were static and pre-positioned.

You have assumed that EBUFU events are never static and that only horse drawn guns are desired. It just isn't the case.

[captdougofky]

Doug,

I can't tell you what the organizers of Bummers have in mind since I am not one of them.

However, I've done dozens of "static" EBUFU events, typically living history things at forts and parks. The last event I did at Fort Granger in Franklin had 3 or 4 guns invited with the purpose of training the infantry on the positions of the gun, which was a documented activity at Granger during the War. There were no horses at that event.

At Pickett's Mill a few years ago, some fellows ran a gun all over the place by prolong. They didn't NEED horses!!!

The guns used at the Rich Mountain event a couple of years ago were static and pre-positioned.

You have assumed that EBUFU events are never static and that only horse drawn guns are desired. It just isn't the case.


Thank you for the info. I just assumed most Artillery used at CPH events was horse drawn. By the prolong, that could be a job, Miss Ashleigh is setting on a heavy wheel No. 2 carriage. Thanks again for the information.

Always
Doug Thomas

[paul hadley]

Ask Frank of the Whistle how the home team moved its field piece about in the Missouri hills of Marmaduke's Raid last year. Sometimes they were aided by oxen but most often sheer rebel brute force is my guess.

I was on the blue team and, due to echoes, could have sworn at times they surely must have had a three-gun battery -- but only the one cannon was present!

If they could move a field piece among those rocks, it can be done anywhere IMHO. Bully work there.

Cheers.
Paul

[flattop32355]

The Confederates at Pickett's Mill/New Hope Church last year had at least one gun the gave us problems on multiple occasions.

Rounding the bend in the road and getting blasted was not pleasant.

Nor was the signal blast that set off the surprise assault on the Union works; I was on picket, and though watching carefully from my position, never saw it coming until they left their works. One warning shot and then running like He!!, vaulting the breastworks like a teenager. Some were amazed at how fast and how high a fat old man can go when he needs to......

[captdougofky]

Ask Frank of the Whistle how the home team moved its field piece about in the Missouri hills of Marmaduke's Raid last year. Sometimes they were aided by oxen but most often sheer rebel brute force is my guess.

I was on the blue team and, due to echoes, could have sworn at times they surely must have had a three-gun battery -- but only the one cannon was present!

If they could move a field piece among those rocks, it can be done anywhere IMHO. Bully work there.

Cheers.
Paul

Paul

Those Oxen, if they are the ones I saw at Brices Crossroads impressive. 4 of them hooked to a wagon. They stole the show in my mind, as far as the 4 legged animals at the event.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky CS

[Spinster]

Yes Doug, same oxen.

Gerry apprenticed as a 'wagoneer's lad' more than 60 years ago. Between that trade, and long service for Uncle Sam, he says that he has spent more nights in his lifetime under stars than under roof.

[MBond057]

I prefer to witness realistic military court martial’s with corporal punishment that leaves the participants seriously injured and the spectators seeking in-depth therapy to relieve their psychological scaring.

Beating of prisoners is also fun interactive scenario that the entire family can enjoy. These types of scenarios allow me to combines my hobbies of S&M with CW reenacting.

On a serious note, just enjoy yourself and come with a good attitude of corporation and willingness to meet good people who also have the same interest of celebrating the American experience. Campaign or mainstream, it is all about the proper attitude and leaving the egos in the 21st Century.

[dale beasley]

Ladies and Gentlemen, and those of you from Texas.

While taking the day off from work having just had surgery last week, still taking a few unknown pills and SOL Beer and lemon (so Trent and Chris heres . I am sitting here watching the kids in the pool. And actually brought my lap top and keyed in here...for that my wife should take it and beat me in the head.

What I really would like to see in this hobby is to see it grow. See everyone working together. Instead I see rifts, labels...I mean come-on, how can some size 50 plus tell someone they aren't authentic? And how can someone who looks like a clown make fun of someone who is atleast trying to be authentic.

I mean "Who is Us" come on... I mean Us would probably piss in their pants the first time they came under fire or had to march more than 10 miles. I certainly checked mine the first time I came under live fire. Who is US and who is THEM? Well Bob Dylan once said "It aint me."

You know most reenactors want to improve their impression from what I have seen, except maybe a group of diss-mounted cav guys form central MS.

What leaders in this hobby need to do is "Take to Task" what they preach. If your people aren't meeting success, whose fault is it? It yours. I mean and I aint blowing smoke up no-ones ass, and that is this... Dennis Neal is without a doubt one of the best Civil War Reeactor Leaders I have ever seen. If it was not for him I know many would have sold their stuff by now and me being one of them. Many could learn from him. Many wouldn't have a clue. But he is a people person, and a leader. He is a person of vision. I have only seen one person piss Dennis off, and we whiped his ass casue ne needed it.

It comes down to this "pick a hand" Take what you got and work it. Everything we do has a Ripple Effect. If you LEADERS want to make a change, do it, stop labeling, stop fighting, get your head out of your rectums and work together.

You know, I been thinking about starting a new WEB Site and calling it "The New Civil War Reenactor" ...and see what happens?

Happy Fourth of July,
Courtesy of the UNITED STATES MILITARY

Dale Beasley

[Pvt_VP]

Which means that you are currently seeing things that did not normally occur?

As Jim Butler asks:


The great difference between the mainstream events and the higher-end, invitation-only, EBUFU events is that the EBUFU events focus on doing things as they would have normally been done. That is accomplished through research, standards and a game plan.

Again, I'm going to suggest that if you aren't getting what you want from the events you currently attend, try an EBUFU. Be willing to take a little constructive criticism on your kit, maybe borrow some items to meet the standard and attend with an open mind. I guaranty you will go home and tell your friends about a great event.

Try it, you'll like it.


O yes, I see things which are not historically accurate all the time, and it can be anywhere from a minor annoyance to a downright flaunting of military rules. One thing which especially bothers me is (period) civilians in the military camp without an escort.

[flattop32355]

O yes, I see things which are not historically accurate all the time, and it can be anywhere from a minor annoyance to a downright flaunting of military rules. One thing which especially bothers me is (period) civilians in the military camp without an escort.

We all have pet peeves; there are actually more of them than there are of us, since some of us have two or even three of them.

Even at the best of events, you'll see things that will make your eyebrows rise. The difference is that you'll generally see less of them when the standards are stricter and enforced, because the men and women attending have a stake in the event working, rather than being there to be entertained.

At best, we play with shadows at what we do. The good of that is that we can show those shadows to people who didn't even know they exist, and at least add some definition to the borders of the shadows for ourselves.

[captdougofky]

Ladies and Gentlemen, and those of you from Texas.

While taking the day off from work having just had surgery last week, still taking a few unknown pills and SOL Beer and lemon (so Trent and Chris heres . I am sitting here watching the kids in the pool. And actually brought my lap top and keyed in here...for that my wife should take it and beat me in the head.

What I really would like to see in this hobby is to see it grow. See everyone working together. Instead I see rifts, labels...I mean come-on, how can some size 50 plus tell someone they aren't authentic? And how can someone who looks like a clown make fun of someone who is atleast trying to be authentic.

I mean "Who is Us" come on... I mean Us would probably piss in their pants the first time they came under fire or had to march more than 10 miles. I certainly checked mine the first time I came under live fire. Who is US and who is THEM? Well Bob Dylan once said "It aint me."

You know most reenactors want to improve their impression from what I have seen, except maybe a group of diss-mounted cav guys form central MS.

What leaders in this hobby need to do is "Take to Task" what they preach. If your people aren't meeting success, whose fault is it? It yours. I mean and I aint blowing smoke up no-ones ass, and that is this... Dennis Neal is without a doubt one of the best Civil War Reeactor Leaders I have ever seen. If it was not for him I know many would have sold their stuff by now and me being one of them. Many could learn from him. Many wouldn't have a clue. But he is a people person, and a leader. He is a person of vision. I have only seen one person piss Dennis off, and we whiped his ass casue ne needed it.

It comes down to this "pick a hand" Take what you got and work it. Everything we do has a Ripple Effect. If you LEADERS want to make a change, do it, stop labeling, stop fighting, get your head out of your rectums and work together.

You know, I been thinking about starting a new WEB Site and calling it "The New Civil War Reenactor" ...and see what happens?

Happy Fourth of July,
Courtesy of the UNITED STATES MILITARY

Dale Beasley

Dale

You've got my vote, leave the egos and elitism at the door. Think Blue and Gray, same Country same Hobby. Happy 4Th of July, enjoy retirement Sir you earned it. Now back to reality TV, so much left to learn.

Always
Doug Thomas
Lyons-Kentucky

[Linda Trent]

If it was not for... [fill in the blank]... I know many would have sold their stuff by now and me being one of them. Many could learn from him. Many wouldn't have a clue. But he is a people person, and a leader. He is a person of vision.

I put fill in the blank because this story can be said about so many people on all sides of the hobby. There are a lot of people who've kept me in the hobby, by putting on events like I wanted to attend. And I think that's the key.

There's no need to make this into an us vs them. What everyone needs to do is find events like they enjoy and attend them, no matter what kind of event it is. If we focused on having everyone attending the kind of events that they want to attend, and quit trying to make everyone enjoy the same thing, I think we'd see a lot more people enjoying the hobby, and possibly more growth on both sides.

It's really rather simple. If people are no longer enjoying their current level of reenacting, or are tired of seeing something inaccurate but don't want to give up the hobby, and don't want to deal with the inaccuracy -- try something different, try going to a different style of event.

People are different and have different needs in the hobby, those needs may even change over time. The hobby is big enough to supply all those people with their needs, but not at the same event (been there done that pre-2000).

Anyway, that's just my two cents worth,

Linda.

[OVI]

It's really rather simple. If people are no longer enjoying their current level of reenacting, or are tired of seeing something inaccurate but don't want to give up the hobby, and don't want to deal with the inaccuracy -- try something different, try going to a different style of event.

People are different and have different needs in the hobby, those needs may even change over time. The hobby is big enough to supply all those people with their needs, but not at the same event (been there done that pre-2000).

Anyway, that's just my two cents worth,

Linda.

Linda....the hobby has shed a large portion of its participants over the last 5 years, for a variety of reasons that we all have discussed...economy, politics etc. Im fairly convinced that many of the folks that drop out, do so for the very reason you are touching on...lack of enjoyment of their current level of reenacting. And for some reason, they cant see or move beyond the samo-samo and so they quit.
I think the question that started this thread is symptomatic of this situation. What do people want at events to make them better and more attractive? I guess it takes people treating the events from the ownership level and not just as consumers.

Kent Dorr - Ohio
"Independence Day Mess"

[dale beasley]

BTW, Happy Fourth, courtesy of the United States Military.

MS Trent, your words are kind, and accurate. And I hope I have never insulted you, for if I have I am truly sorry.


Now to all,

I had a Grandfather who was in the 1st ID when they hit Ohama on D-Day. He use to tell me there are 10 rules in life.

1. Take care of the poor, and I don't mean the lazy.
2. Tell your wife you love her everyday. Don't drink much around her and don't screw around on her.
3. Most preachers are full of shit.
4. Everyday pass the "mirror test".
5. Don't Bottle-Neck at a river crossing, "The Nats" will attack everytime.
6. Always do for others as others have done for you.
7. Take care of the Old, and listen to them.
8. Don't pray for nothing, except the ability to accept Gods Will.
9. Never let a day go by, that you don't remember the men you served with.
10, Money talks and bullshit walks.


Bottom line, if everyone would leave their egos at the door and be polite to each other, I bet my farm, we would better in the next ten years than we have ever been.

I hope you all have a nice day.

[KarinTimour]

Mr. Beasley:

Enjoying your posts, much time honored wisdom is compacted into a very small space, and I know I'll be quoting your grandfather in the future!

We differ a tad in our take on the Fourth of July. When I grew up, responsibility for this holiday was said to rest largely with a small group of civilians who gathered in Philadelphia.....

In any case, enjoy it and honor those, both military and civilian, who played a part in ensuring the liberties we enjoy!

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[dale beasley]

We never did much for the 4th of July, I guess because my GGrandmother was British. Thanks for the kind words.
I am sorry about the typing error, I meant to put MS. Guess it proves I react before I think.

[KarinTimour]

Don't worry about the typo.

Speaking of having a grandmother who was British, I saw a fascinating television show on PBS a few years ago which retold the story of the Revolution from the perspective of the British. I think it had Simon Schama (sic?) narrating it. Anyone else familiar with this? I'd like to read more on the Revolution from the "Other" perspective.

And this week was "Canada Day" north of the border. The New York Times solicited notes from ex-pat Canadians about what they most missed about living here, and one of them wrote that it was having the Canadian perspecitve on the US. For example, he said "We learned US history in grade 8 and discovered that your country was founded by a bunch of tax cheats." I had to laugh out loud.

Personally, I get all misty-eyed and sentimental and fierce about the freedoms our Founders were talking about in the Declaration of Independence. I make a point of reading it aloud on the Fourth -- a grand old tradition that I think is worth preserving.

May you have a joyous and thoughtful Fourth!
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[huntdaw]

Ask Frank of the Whistle how the home team moved its field piece about in the Missouri hills of Marmaduke's Raid last year. Sometimes they were aided by oxen but most often sheer rebel brute force is my guess.

I was on the blue team and, due to echoes, could have sworn at times they surely must have had a three-gun battery -- but only the one cannon was present!

If they could move a field piece among those rocks, it can be done anywhere IMHO. Bully work there.

Cheers.
Paul

Yeah, but that was a much smaller gun than the typical field piece. Some sort of 3 inch rifle I believe copied from an original. There were just a handful of those particular ones made and Marmaduke had a couple of them. They worked well in that terrain.

The reason it sounded like three is they were working it the way it would have actually been worked, as opposed to the time limits between shots that are set by most events. Yet, it was still done in a safe manner. I've had the privilege of being the #3 on that gun at a demonstration.

Probably what Doug has would be a lot harder moving everywhere by hand.

[huntdaw]

"...he said 'We learned US history in grade 8 and discovered that your country was founded by a bunch of tax cheats."


And who says history doesn't repeat itself?

(Note to Moderator: Not intended to be a political statement in and of itself or an effort to redirect the thread. Only a slight bit of humorous observation.)

[wilber6150]

I would like to face Confederates who are actually from the South or members of units that are actually from the states that their units are representing...

[Gregg Hensley]

Mr. Coffey,
Hopefully our paths will cross sometime and you'll get your opportunity to do that. My unit (22nd North Carolina, Co. K) is mostly comprised of men who actually had ancestors in the 22nd NC. Companies B&K were originally formed here in McDowell Co. The original Capt. was Alney Burgin who is my wife's GGG Uncle. Several of the troops are doing their first person impressions of their own ancestors. So, my unit has deep roots in our portrayal.

The root of your request is the same here in the South. At the Battle of Columbia, SC a few weeks ago we were Federal one day and Confederate the next. So, that means everyone changed sides for one day. It's strange to fight against familiar faces in 2 different uniforms, knowing that none of them are "real" Northerners.


Gregg Hensley
22 NCST, Co. K
The McDowell Boys

[hiplainsyank]

1. Always glad to be told I'm full of it. Crap, that is, since I'm a pastor... ;o)

Like most groups of people, the many get stuck with the well-earned reputation of the few bad-acting ones.

2. Considering how people move these days, where is one from? Counting summers, I have lived in 6 different states. And I just have a problem with geographical segregation, because limiting people to portraying people of their zipcode would basically eliminate all far north and far south reenactments. Only in the PAs, VA's WVs, KYs, and MOs would you be able to gather enough folks of both sides to make a go of it. And what about reenactors who live in locations where there were no states (or, moreso, foreign countries) at the time of the war? They're just crap-outta-luck, as the saying sorta goes?

In the end, don't we have enough divisions in our countries without reenactment organizers telling people what they can portray at a reeactment based on their current zipcode?

3. And back to the thread at hand... I've been reading O'Reilly's book on the Fredericksburg Campaign, so I'd like to see a group of engineer reenactors build a pontoon bridge, with all the intricate maneuvers and teams of men the author describes in that book. It's hard to visualize in words alone.

Not that this is a practical suggestion. But as long as folks are dreaming, this would be fun to see.

[Artyman]

I'd like to see that done too! But, can you imagine the hastle trying to get a permit to allow the blocking of a water course by a plantoon bridge!?

As far as geographics determining an event's content, well, I suppose you'd not see a great coat being worn on a 110 degree Florida event just the same as shirtsleeves in a Michigan late fall event. Point I'm making is that geography itself can create many of the rules.

Harry

[RJSamp]

3. And back to the thread at hand... I've been reading O'Reilly's book on the Fredericksburg Campaign, so I'd like to see a group of engineer reenactors build a pontoon bridge, with all the intricate maneuvers and teams of men the author describes in that book. It's hard to visualize in words alone.

Not that this is a practical suggestion. But as long as folks are dreaming, this would be fun to see.


Was done a couple of years ago...and filmed.....

[Spinster]

Was done a couple of years ago...and filmed.....

And was breathtaking.......and beautiful.

[wilber6150]

Mr. Coffey,
Hopefully our paths will cross sometime and you'll get your opportunity to do that. My unit (22nd North Carolina, Co. K) is mostly comprised of men who actually had ancestors in the 22nd NC. Companies B&K were originally formed here in McDowell Co. The original Capt. was Alney Burgin who is my wife's GGG Uncle. Several of the troops are doing their first person impressions of their own ancestors. So, my unit has deep roots in our portrayal.

Gregg Hensley
22 NCST, Co. K
The McDowell Boys

Wow,
there must be a special feeling and bond in your unit to portray your ancestors unit and then to have the actual relatives of your ancestors mess mates in the same unit.. OUTSTANDING.. Thats got to be incredible...
I hope we can meet across that small deadly space one day then sit back share a canteen and talk about it...

[Capt. Lewis]

I believe pontoons have been built at least three times in my recollection, but not while 'under fire', which would be incredible to watch, but time consuming to the nth degree...Perhaps one of your EBUFU events should center around one side trying to complete a bridge while the other attempts to stop it??? By the way, I'm not sure the bridge actually blocks the water flow much since the pontoons float.

[hiplainsyank]

RJ, you talking about Gods and Generals, or another work of film?

[RJSamp]

RJ, you talking about Gods and Generals, or another work of film?

Never viewed the movie, but understand that a pontoon bridge was constructed using period materials, ponts, and methods....and was filmed. Assume it was GnG, but don't know for a fact....this is one of those movies I'll probably never watch....and I haven't seen either North and South 1, 2 nor Blue and Gray 1, 2....

[Rob Weaver]

Several years ago, troops crossed the river in the pontoon boats at Fredericksburg to attack the Confederates along the townside shore. Each boat had a certified pilot or something in case of emergency. I was on the shore firing with the sharpshooters. It was a pretty cool scenario. RJ: What was the name of the river crossing operation in the Chancellorsville campaign that the Iron Brigade got involved in? Rappahannock Ford?

[plankmaker]

There is quite a bit of information on the canvas pontoons used by the AoJ in the vicinity of Strawberry Plains on the James. That was the longest pontoon bridge built during the war and contained a horizontal draw that was operated by soldiers who would swing part of the bridge to allow gunboats to proceed further up the river. The big problem with the canvas pontoons is that they often used straw that was taken from stables to cover the bridge so that the horse's hoves could not be heard clattering on the planks. This stuff was very hard on canvas and often resulted in the canvas rotting and pontoons sinking. However, the canvas were collapsible and much easier to transport than the heavy wood pontoon boats.

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[plankmaker]

Just an example:

HDQRS. DEPT. OF VIRGINIA AND NORTH CAROLINA,
ENGINEER'S OFFICE,

October 10, 1864.

GENERAL: I have the honor to submit the following report of engineering operations in this department for the week ending September 24, 1864, viz:

At Dutch Gap the work progressed slowly during the week owing to the continuous fire of the rebel mortar batteries on the low ground across the river. All our efforts to dislodge them have proved unavailing. Two or four men is all they require in a pit to work their small 6-inch mortar, which are annoying and demoralizing to the men at labor on the canal. The difference of water level at the two ends of the proposed canal was found to be ten and one-tenth inches by means of the common Y level. A survey of the works at Harrison's Landing, now completed, was made on the 20th, which is transmitted with this report. The main work on the line is completed and the labor lately has mostly been on the infantry parapet, extending to the river. The entire length of the line is 1,412 yards. The distance in a straight line from flank to flank 892 yards. On the 19th instant a canvas pontoon bridge was laid across the Appomattox River at Broadway Landing, requiring in all twenty-three boats, including the two used in the draw. The upper bridge, heretofore used, had been so constantly employed that it needed a thorough overhauling and repair. The pontoniers who laid the canvas bridge had no experience heretofore with these boats. The average time required to build the boats was seven minutes and a half. The first required twelve minutes and the last few three minutes each. The bridge was laid by sixty pontoniers, after the boats were build, in one hour and fifteen minutes, the abutments being previously prepared. I find that the tide rises variously on this river, sometimes being as high as four feet two inches. For heavy trains or much travel this bridge soon becomes useless. Among items noticed during its use the following may be interesting. Unless the claw balks are lashed to the saddle-piece, they have a great tendency to slip up or down, according as the tide is flow or ebb. The canvas, without having holes punched in it, does not allow row-locks to be put in the gunwales, and it is difficult and tedious otherwise to operate the draw. The draw, too, is not stiff enough, owing to the play allowed by the claw balks. The dust of the manure covering requires to be constantly removed to prevent rotting the canvas. It is noticed that leakage follows quickly where any such matter remains a short time. The worst case of leakage reported was six inches in one night, and strange to say the same boat leaked none the following day. These boats are nineteen feet six inches long and are altogether too short. In some cases they come down to within four inches of the water when very heavy loads pass over them. They are also very liable to injury, owing to the many accidents which may occur by careless or mischievous soldiers, a single bayonet punch being sufficient to disable a boat.

I have the honor to be, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

PETER S. MICHIE,

First Lieutenant, U. S. Engineers,
Acting Chief Engineer, Dept. of Virginia and North Carolina.

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[Phantom Captain]

I would like to face Confederates who are actually from the South or members of units that are actually from the states that their units are representing...

My unit attended the Atlanta event last Oct. 08 at the Nash Farm and we were the only true Federal western unit there. All the other Feds were galvanized. Everyone in my unit is from Indiana. We were treated with great respect and recognized for taking the time and effort to make the trip and attend. It was really nice. It was also really nice facing off against true southern units too. Lots of Georgia, NC, and TN boys there. Definitely going back again this year as it's a national this year.

I think they were really impressed with us as we were the ONLY unit doing it campaign style too. Every other unit, north and south had tons canvas except for us!

The one thing that I really would like to see at a reenactment is a division of the civillian camps. Put the kids and families in one section and let the adults have their section some distance from the others. I think it would alleviate lots of headaches and complaints. :cool: I campaign it when my significant other doesn't attend but when she does I have to bring the A tent and set up with the civvys. Not my cup of tea usually and I do notice quite some friction between families with kids and the adults only reenactors.

[The Duke of Hazard]

Meet a wealthy widow to take me to Tara! And, by the way, for her I would willingly start wearing riffraff-rebel gray.:)

[Jim of the SRR]

My unit attended the Atlanta event last Oct. 08 at the Nash Farm and we were the only true Federal western unit there. All the other Feds were galvanized. Everyone in my unit is from Indiana. We were treated with great respect and recognized for taking the time and effort to make the trip and attend. It was really nice. It was also really nice facing off against true southern units too. Lots of Georgia, NC, and TN boys there. Definitely going back again this year as it's a national this year.

I think they were really impressed with us as we were the ONLY unit doing it campaign style too. Every other unit, north and south had tons canvas except for us!

The one thing that I really would like to see at a reenactment is a division of the civillian camps. Put the kids and families in one section and let the adults have their section some distance from the others. I think it would alleviate lots of headaches and complaints. :cool: I campaign it when my significant other doesn't attend but when she does I have to bring the A tent and set up with the civvys. Not my cup of tea usually and I do notice quite some friction between families with kids and the adults only reenactors.

Sounds like you may want to try to attend some c/p/h events to get more of a feeling of what camps might be like during the war. This is the best advise I can give you without saying "Still going to the wrong events?"

Jim Butler

[flattop32355]

This is the best advise I can give you without saying "Still going to the wrong events?"

But, then, you'd never say that, now would you, Jim...... ;)

[NCfighter]

The best events I have attended are the ones where you almost forget that you are not in the civil war.

I enjoy doing living history and teaching the public how it was to be a soldier in the 1860's. If my tent/bed/weapon/uniform are not historically correct - how can I show it off?
Me for one, I like to be as correct in my impression as possible. That being said I only keep up with me. Its up to you to make sure your stuff is right. You won't hear me telling someone else they are farby.
I like to do demonstrations and alot of talking.
Drill should be done as it was and with the intent to improve.

The best events I have attended have a good ration of either food, powder, and or firewood. There are bathroom facuilities accessable and maintained all weekend. I for one love a good ball, with good beverages (doesn't have to be beer). I like the campsites to be well laid out and have sufficient room to allow spectators to walk through without feeling like they are in your way or intruding.

I guess thats about it. Despite all the things I mentioned, I love getting to be someone who is so different then I really am for a few weekends a year.

[Jim of the SRR]

The best events I have attended are the ones where you almost forget that you are not in the civil war.

The best events I have attended have a good ration of either food, powder, and or firewood. There are bathroom facuilities accessable and maintained all weekend. I for one love a good ball, with good beverages (doesn't have to be beer).

You are kidding of course?

Jim Butler

[Poor Private]

Different strokes for different folks-- If you don't like the event don't go. Most events up here in Michigan are in multiple year event. 2 events last year celebrated anniversary years one Jackson was 25 years, and Bowens Mills passed the 30 year milestone. So if you don't like the event this year Don't go again. No one is forcing you to attend any event. If you don't want to go to this weeks event wait a week. It seems that Michigan has an event of some sort every week, sometimes many on the same weekend. Wether it's mainstream, private, canpaigner style, living history or timeline for those who chose to do multiple impressions, take your pick. If your complaining about last weekend don't attend it again.
Nothing is worse than for people who complain about certain events yet still keep goin to the d**n thing. STAY HOME. Set up a tent in your back yard, build a fire and have your own mini event. Heck invite a few friends who share the same notion to come on over. Wait a second.>> Isn't this the start of a new event, that you can setup how you wish and who you wish?
If you don't like Balls don't go to that event.
I am tired of people complaining all the time and bringing out the same hackneyed phrases. It's no wonder things arn't getting better or changing. P**ing and moaning and still going to the event won't change it. As my dad used to say "s**t or get off the pot".

[Viceroy]

I enjoy activities at events.
Playing period games.
Bayonet competition.
I like having a company mess. Cooking time could be better spent, by sleeping, polishing my musket, or gambling... woops, did I say that?

[plankmaker]

I want to sit down and talk about revisionist history while plucking only the items from historical documents that back up my modern views on things and then expound them loudly to all to hear so I can show my great knowledge, albeit myopic, to the endearing public.

Or, not.

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[lincolnsguard]

How come nobody said sit around under a fly, eat, drink beer and BS with friends?:confused::confused::confused:

[Micah Trent]

Bayonet competition.


What does this consist of?????:confused:

[ley74]

I am now closing my eyes. TMI!

[WILD WES]

I want to see some more live fire shooting competitions, night tacticals, and less Yankees leaving.

[OVI]

I want to see some more live fire shooting competitions, night tacticals, and less Yankees leaving.

What do you envision for a night tactical? As far as live firing competitions, that's fine along as its not part of a reenactment.

Kent Dorr - Ohio Winter Quarters
"Devils Own Mess"

[WILD WES]

I would never consider even shooting the same weapon for a Live Fire that I reenact with. I believe in a "house set." Theres too much risk with lead shavings and too high of a risk of someone slipping through an arms inspection. I think the biggest problem with night tacticals is that they are a spur of the moment type thing. The night tacticals should be included in the event schedule so reenactors can prepare for them. Often times its a spur of the moment type thing in which reenactors are confronted with in camps after an exhausting battle and partially undressed. This leads to thoughts like "I didn't roll cartridges for that," "I just took off all my gear," and my favorite "My rifles full of boiling water." This is the crap that happened up at the 145th Gettysburg and then we were guilt tripped into it by a General gracious enough to give us a premiere spot in the next day's scenario. So it is the same when we do have a tactical and it often happens with no interest. This leads to low turnout and it sucks. I just figure since the reenactments focus so much on the spectators these days we need to put aside more time for the reenactors.

[7thNJcoA]

There has been some great points made by a lot of people here! The one thing that always gets me no matter what event I attend is (including some members of my own unit) the overweight reenactors... I guess its just being a real military man but it disgusts me to see the sight and I feel sometimes that is dishonors the memory... just my lonely 2 cents take what you will.... (give a penny take a penny?)

[OVI]

The night tacticals should be included in the event schedule so reenactors can prepare for them.

Im confused here....by night tactical, are you talking about fighting in the dark? Or do you mean a late afternoon skirmish after the standard 2 oclock battle?

Kent Dorr - Winter Quarters in Ohio
"Devils Own Mess"

[WILD WES]

I mean late afternoon skirmish after the standard 2 o'clock battle. I refer to it as night tactical because its often nearing dark during the winter in the late afternoon, especially when our mainstream season is from Sept. - April. Its only 6 o'clock right now and its pitch black outside. Also I think it would be more authentic to not have the tactical in the blackness of night. I can't recall too many battles where full on fighting raged over night, unless it was shelling or skirmishing. I couldn't imagine having a tactical in the dark. It would have to be pretty tactical I guess. I'm not saying we shouldn't have them at night, I'm just impartial as to whether safety would be an issue or waking everyone up.

[MD_Independent26]

Personally, I'd like to burn some fence rails. Draw water from a period well. Do a late night forced march of several miles. Portray a unit routed in a scenario(not by rain) and running straight from the field to the car on Sunday. Now my imagination is working over time... Bill Birney, CR