Williams Gun yoke mounted?

[Artyman]

Was surfing around yesterday and came across this:

http://spriks-civil-war-cannon-sales.com/page2.html

Then this:

http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/williamsconstruction.htm

And this:

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~us14thkyinfantry/photo/reunion.html

OK, so which is correct? Both maybe? Yoke makes sense, and the original shown has a yoke, but what do we actually know about Williams Guns?

Harry

[3rdUSRedleg]

From my minimal experience and knowlege, on this gun all is correct of different years.

[JS1861]

Howdy,
I am privileged enough to Crew with Schoolfield's Battery On occasion. They have a Mountain Howitzer, and a Williams Gun. This Williams Gun, was built @ White County High School, and according to Sgt. Heard, by the Blue print. As you can see, It's Yoke mounted, as you can see, never mind the Blue Coats, we have to GALVANIZE from time 2 time. This was at Bridgeport. I'll tell you one thing, If the Johnny Rebs would have had more of these it would have been a rough way to go for the Yanks!! An Example @ Bridgeport, we shot 49 rounds in roughly 18 minutes!!!

Joey Savage
Tennessee
2241

[bob 125th nysvi]

at the Watervliet Arsenal and it is indeed 'yoke' mounted.

I suspect that probably both versions are correct. The 'yoke' version may not have survived a lot of use in the field (remember the 'yoke' is taking the brunt of the recoil) so if the yoke broke or maybe even later models were just conventionally mounted for ease of maintenance and construction.

[Artyman]

Joey,

Nice picture!

That yoke looks a little light to me, how stable is it?

Your post brings up an interesting safety rule issue. I have read posts where crews using Williams Guns at certain events have been compelled to follow the three minute (and longer) rules just like the muzzle loading artillery. Since the Williams Gun is a breach loader it should (IMHO) be allowed to fire faster than that. Your rate of fire (49 in 18 min) is very cool, but would violate such rate of fire rules. I agree with such rules for muzzle loaders, but I suggest that Williams Guns do not need to be bound by any rate of fire rules per say since there isn't any gunner sticking a rammer down a hot barrel. Certainly other safety rules can and should apply, but from what I've read up to this point, a WG should be safe at higher rates of fire (presuming the gun is expertly commanded and the crew well trained).

The one issue in this regard might be the barrel heating up. How quick do these get too hot for safety? Running a wet sponge down the barrel every few rounds would be helpful in controlling heat, I'm sure.

Having a WG in the battle line would add some pepper to the scenerio by putting some noise in between the interval where the big guns are silent while waiting for the stop watch to run out. Might make some of the infantry types a bit nervous, but you'll have that!

Harry

[JS1861]

Thanks Artyman,
Sgt. Heard. to Whom the Gun ACTUALLY BELONGS, puts NEW LEATHER breech seals on it EVERY REENACTMENT. The Loader, Swabs the tube every 3 rounds, the Gunner, swabs the Firing Chamber. To keep it cool as possible. THE ONLY PROBLEM WE'VE EVER ENCOUNTERED, The Breech block, and Firing device works off of a Cam System, when you bring the handle up to safety, it closes the breech, the next position is to FIRE. If you rotate the handle TOO FAR, PAST where it FIRES, the Breech BLOCK will OPEN, and burn whoever is behind the Breech. It's Happened. We are very SAFE. That 49 rounds in 18min. rate of fire, was with an EXPERIENCED CREW. We did'nt know we'd shot that much till, our Ammo box worker, said we've just got one round left for a Salute. We were Like WOW!!
As far a stability, It's pretty doggone STURDY, shootin powder. I don't know about live fire. I've questioned that myself. The way this one traverses it can move left to right no problems. Like I said, it was built off of a blueprint that Sgt. Heard came up with. If you look at the one on the FloridaREENACTOR link. It's pretty much the same EXCEPT, theirs has CHEEK PLATES! If this one was mine, so would it. If you look at the 14th KY page, the Carriage is almost identical. A little difference in the yoke system. I hope we get to see you some where...If you want I'll get you some better pic's of it next weekend. We will be doing a L.H. at Nathan Bedford Forrest Boyhood Home Fundraiser In Chapel Hill, TN. It's ALWAYS A GREAT EVENT!! I'll be with Huwald's there, on the Mountain Howitzers.
Joey Savage
TENNESSEE

[Artyman]

Yes, more pics!

I'm seriously considering getting one myself, so I'm interested in everything. I plan to look at the surviving originals this winter.

Harry

[Blair]

Who is it that has a Williams Gun mounted on a standard #1 or #2 Field carriage?
This would be pretty handy for someone that already has a nice gun and field carriage set up.
There are photos available showing this arrangement. I have seen them just recently and because of this renewed interest in this type of rapider fire gun. Anybody have any ideas where this might be?

[JS1861]

Here You go Artyman,
These pic's ain't the best in the World. I don't usually carry a Camera in My Haversack. These are from Bridgeport. I'll get you some closeups this weekend at Forrest Home!!
Joey Savage
Tennessee

The Last one was at Forrest Home LAST YEAR!!

[JS1861]

Sorry Fellers, IMG-2975 the 4th one was a mistake. We Just had a new Baby Girl!!:oops::oops:

Joey Savage
Tennessee

[Artyman]

Any excuse for cake works for me!:grin:

Harry

[66illinois]

I own one:


http://i40.tinypic.com/nlznfr.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2mecwvc.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2zzp5kx.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2q8mxpf.jpg


I have since put a few nice additions on it: water bucket; implements; misc. carriage hardware; ammunition box, etc.

I am constantly doing research on the gun and am working on a neat pamplet on it to hand out to those interested in the the piece at various functions.

Basically, the door is still open on what the carriage actually looked like during the War...ie. light "standard" Carriage vs. Yoke mounted adapted carriage.

It is quite fun to shoot....look forward to July 4!!!

discussion: http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13250&highlight=williams

[JS1861]

Illini,
Nice Pic's!! Which carriage was prevalent is debatable. There is SO Little information on these Guns. If you look at the pic of the 14th Ky. That gun is Defiantly Yoke mounted, but a different yoke System. On the NSSA forum. they say that the one in the pic, was actually stolen from Schoolfield's Battery. Who had 6 Williams Guns at the time. I'll link that too. I would like to have one of your pamphlets when you get them finished.
http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~us14thkyinfantry/photo/reunion.html (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Eus14thkyinfantry/photo/reunion.html)
http://http://www.n-ssa.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10897&sid=fd4c98cb51a7ecb6b2c5098889c4d429 (http://http//www.n-ssa.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10897&sid=fd4c98cb51a7ecb6b2c5098889c4d429)

Joey Savage
Tennessee

[Artyman]

That carriage looks like a light prarie with the cheeks removed. Perhaps it is, but the wheels are so light that they couldn't be from a light prarie. More likely a buggy! Wheels that light never would have stood up to the beating carrying that much weight. Perhaps the ones shown are different wheels since maybe the originals rotted away and they needed something, anything, to set the thing on. Wheels are always the first to go.

I saw a photo of an original Tredigar bronze mountain rifle. The whole thing is supposed to be original, but the limber wheels were lighter than the carriage wheels. Certainly this reflected the heavier gun weight compared to the lighter ammo weight.

The yoke appears to be a cast yoke, like swivel guns use. Could be.

Harry

[66illinois]

The old black & white photo of the Ky. vets posing infront of the Williams Gun, while interesting and historic, I take NO merit on how that piece originally served on the CW battlefield.

I have studied that photo and have read notes about the group capturing that particular gun(s). My conclusion (and my personal opinion) is that the barrel was removed from an original "fighting cannon" in haste and brought to a rear battalion of some sort of test and evaluation (T&E). The barrel was perhaps put on another carriage...perhaps drawings and notes were taken and reviewed by the soldiers that actually captured it.....or perhaps not???

That carriage for all purposes could have been made a few weeks before those old guys got together for the reunion. *Something to shoot, look at and mark the event with their fellow soldiers.... Who knows????

At this stage of my modest research, I cannot conclusively tell you which carriage would have been more prevelant on the battlefield. BUT I am sure trying....

George A.
Bossier, LA.

* I sure am going to drag the sucker out a and shoot it on the 4th! LOL

[Michael Dec]

This doesn't help with the yoke question, but here is some info from the Official Records:


SERIES: IV VOLUME: II CAMPAIGN: Blockade Runners SERIAL: 128 PAGE: 0357
SPECIAL ORDERS,
ADJT. AND INSP. GENERAL'S OFFICE No. 11. Richmond, Va., January 14, 1863.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
XI. Authority is hereby granted R. S. Williams to raise a light artillery company, to be equipped with Williams' breech-loading guns, to consist of Kentuckians, under the call of the President and existing law.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
By command of the Secretary of War:
JOHN WITHERS,
Assistant Adjutant-General.



SERIES: I VOLUME: XXIV CAMPAIGN: Vicksburg SERIAL: 038 PAGE: 0973
DANIEL RUGGLES.
PONTOTOC, June 22, 1863.
Colonel B. S. EWELL, Assistant Adjutant-GENERAL:


4. Subsequently General Buckner very kindly loaned me Major Boyles' cavalry battalion about the 15th of May; also a battery of four Williams' guns, which, in addition to Lieutenant Colonel C. R. Bartean's seven companies of SECOND Tennessee Cavalry, and Major Hewlett's Alabama Cavalry Battalion, enabled me to begin operations in the field.


SERIES: I VOLUME: XXX CAMPAIGN: Chickamauga SERIAL: 051 PAGE: 0641
Reports of Brigadier General John S. Williams, C. S. Army, commanding Cavalry Brigade.

HEADQUARTERS CAVALRY BRIGADE,
Abingdon, Va., October 23, 1863.
GENERAL: I have the honor to submit the following brief account of the operations of the troops under my command during the recent campaign in East Tennessee from the time I left Zollicoffer, by your order, on September 27, to proceed to Jonesborough, until the time of your arrival at Abingdon:
At about 5 p. m. the enemy, discovering the weakness of our lines, made a furious assault on the center, composed of a battalion under Lieutenant-Colonel Trimble, numbering between 75 and 100 men, against which were precipitated two regiments and a battalion of infantry and a battery of six pieces of artillery. Our center was compelled to give way, but withdrew handsomely upon the right and left wings, and the enemy pressed straight toward our batteries, which did not open until they approached within 250 yards; then our four heavier pieces and Lieutenant Schoolfield's battery of Williams' guns opened upon them with grape and canister, mowing them down. The enemy broke and attempted to escape under cover of a ravine and woodlands toward our left, where Giltner's rifles dealt destruction in their discomfited ranks. With heavy loss they fled to their original position and darkness covered the field.


I use to own one, but sold the barrel to Bill Graves in Michigan, back in 1993/1994. I was selling stuff off to help finance the Parrott Rifle and gun carriage that I was building at that time, which is what my unit still uses today.

Michael Dec

[JS1861]

Here you go Artyman,
I promised you a few pics of Sgt. Heard's Williams Gun. Here they are. SORRY it's taken me SO long. I've had some pc trouble. Enjoy..
Joey Savage
Huwald's Battery
Tennessee Mountain Howitzers

[bheard]

Joey
Thanks for the pics.& kind words. As you know I built the carriage based on newspaper pics. from the KY papers of the 1940s & 50s. The gun I used for a model is in the KY military museum in Frankfort. It is the "Patrick Gun" taken from Schoolfields Battery.
bheard