Safety first, lads

[Tom Scoufalos]

Kind of reminds you, in an indirect way, to keep your hand away from that muzzle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_GfE8PP1E&feature=channel

[sbl]

I'll bet they blamed the gay sailor.

[Pvt. Sweetey]

Even the little ones are dangerous!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWq6rYftX5w

[GaWildcat]

Talk about wanting to die quick, fast, and in a hurry...

How NOT to load artillery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aes7tKAgRVw&NR=1

[sbl]

http://82.165.28.118/shop/ak/17/1777640.jpg

[sbl]

Keep chicks away to!

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/sbl1952/Artillery1913.jpg

[Marc]

Talk about wanting to die quick, fast, and in a hurry...

How NOT to load artillery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aes7tKAgRVw&NR=1

I could not even watch the end of the video as I knew what was going to happen. I started out in artillery over 20 years ago and any unit I was with safety was the primary concern. I encourage anyone with an interest in muzzleloading artillery at a minimum subscribe to "The Artilleryman" at

http://www.artillerymanmagazine.com/
They also have a booklet available on cannon safety etc. It is the same people who do "Civil War News".

[Craig L Barry]

"Artilleryman" is a great magazine.

[Spinster]

You know, its just hardwired into the genetic code:

From Pickett's History of Alabama, Chapter IX
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cmamcrk4/pktfm.html
(Fort Toulouse-Jackson State Historic Site is located in Wetumpka, Alabama, at the confluence of two rivers, just northeast of Montgomery)

Returning to Coosawda, Bienville now advanced his fleet from thence to the junction, where, entering the Coosa, he arrived at Tuskegee, where the voayge terminated. The crew left the boats, ascended the bluff, formed themselves in religious order, and surrounded a cross which had been hastily constructed. Two priests, who accompanied the expedition, chanted praises to the Most High, and went through other solemn ceremonies, in prresence of a number of the natives, who contemplated the scene with camness and respect, and who preserved the most profound silence. With the assistance of the natives, Bienville began the erection of a wooden fort with four bastions, in each one of which he mounted two of the cannon.

As the history of these cannon is rather singular, and may interest some of our readers, we must be allowed to digress from the main narrative., by a brief refernce to it. These cannon remained upon the entrenchments of Fort Toulouse from 1714 to 1763. Then the French commandant spiked them, broke off the trunions, evacuated the fort, and left the cannon there in that situation. The English, who, in 1763, succeeded to the possession of this country, threw a garrisons into Fort Toulouse, but in a very short time also evacuated it and it fell into rapid decay; but still the French cannon remained there. A few years after Col. Hawkins had been stationed among the Creeks, as their agent, he induced the government, as a means of encouraging agriculture, to send some blacksmiths to the nation. One of these men succeeded in filing away the spikes from the rest of the cannon. These the Indians used to fire with powder for amusement. Afterwards, the army of Jackson occupied the site of the old fort. In due time they marched away, and still these a French piece remained there.

Finally, the town of Montgonmery, now our capital, began to be settled, and the inhabitants went up to old Fort Toulouse, then Fort Jackson, and brought down two of these cannon, which they fired at 4th of July festivals, and upon other extraordianry occasions. When it was known that John Quincey Adams had been elected President of the United States, his warm friends in Montgomery determined to make the forests resound with the noise of powder. One of the cannon was over-charged, and when touched off by Ebenezer Pond, burst into pieces and mangled that gentleman in such a horrid manner, that he was a long time recovering. The breech of the other cannon was, some years afterwards, burst off by heavy charges, and the portion which remains now stands at Pollard's corner in Montgomery, being there planted in the ground, the muzzle up, for the purpose of protecting the corner of the sidewalk. About the same year 1820, another of these cannon was carried to the town of Washington, then county seat of Autauga, where the inhabitants used to fire it upon the celebration of the 4th of July, and whenever a steamboat arrived, but at length it was also burst, by a party rejoicing one night at the result of a county election. Another of these old French pieces was carried to Wetumpka when that town was first established, and was fired upon like occasions. It is now at Rockford, in Coosa county, in the possession of the same Ebenezer Pond who was so badly wounded at Montgomery by the explosion of one of its mates. What became of the other four cannon we not know, but have understood that they, together with a fine brass piece, are in the river opposite Fort Jackson.

[Rob Weaver]

Kind of reminds you, in an indirect way, to keep your hand away from that muzzle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_GfE8PP1E&feature=channel
There's an expression among the brothers of St Catherine "he don't know which end the joe goes in." It wasn't the muzzle that got him, friend, it was the breech. The end the joe goes in. :D
He should get down on his knees and thank God Almighty he wasn't loading a tank cannon. The recoil of a tank gun will kill you if you stand behind it. Not can kill. Will.
Did he sign the waiver? They really need to invent a safe breechloader. :D

[tompritchett]

The recoil of a tank gun will kill you if you stand behind it. Not can kill.

When I was taking my Armored Officer Basic course, we had 5 of us injured during the 3 1/2 month course. One officer had his shin bone cracked from one of the shells as it was ejected out of the breach. Another officer made the mistake of resting his arm on top of the gun as they were driving across rough terrain with the gun stabilization on; his arm ended up being pinned between the gun tube and the top of the turret. The most scared I ever got in a tank was when one of the hydraulic lines for the recoil mechanism of the gun burst upon firing the gun. As the breach dropped down as the tube was coming back, all I saw was this cloud of hot gasses spraying into my face (I was the acting loader at the time). When I wiped the hot liquid off my face, my hands were all red. Fortunately, after I came out of the turret, I discovered that the red liquid on my hands was not blood but rather the cherry colored hydraulic fluid.

In one of my units, about a year before I joined it, they had a driver literally ripped in half when he got upset with his tank commander and decided to get out of the drivers hatch without telling anyone what he was doing. Unfortunately for him, the gunner happened to traverse the turret bringing the gun tube across the driver's hatch just as he was half way out. With tanks and artillery, mistakes in judgement and lapses in concentration can often lead to broken bones, dislocated joints and even death.

[Harold Adams]

As an ex gun bunny, I've seen my share of accidents. One in the motor pool when an M109A2 SP Howitzer almost rolled over one of the guys in my section. Instead it rolled over the very tip of his foot crushing his toes.

Another was at Grafenwohr, when an 8inch bn., that was part of our brigade, had an incident, where several people where injured, because they forgot about a powder increment left on the load tray overnight. A firemission was called, they rammed a round home and then realized at the last minute the full powder increment was there. They called checkfire, and the mission was called off. They then tried to pull the powder charge (with a live round rammed) out of the barrel from the front. That didnt work, so some scholar suggested pushing the powder charge, and round, out the back of the breech, by attaching the ramming staffs to the front of an M548 ammo carrier. While they were pushing it out, somehow the powder ignited shooting the round out the back, sending the rods through the 548, and burning off the Battery Commanders hand. There was a big stink over this incident.

And a good friend of mine was injured when he caught the recoil of an M119 towed howitzer. One of the sections was shooting a 9 round mission. He was loading (no. 1 cannoneer) and had dropped the brass casing previously. After he loaded a round he tried to kick the other brass casing (laying directly under the breech) out of the way and caught the recoil in his hip. He suffered a broken hip as the result. He's **** lucky thats all he suffered.

I can go on and on about accidents, I've seen. Even in the desert I saw people getting injured on the gun line.

That particular incident on utube really struck a nerve with me.

Be safe!

Kindest regards;
Harold Adams
Former 13B10 Field Artillery Cannon Crewman

[Rob Weaver]

I love the sound of 8" shells going over: they sound like a passing bus.
When I was at OBC there was a private run over by a tank out on one of the training areas. Oddly and fortunately enough the ground was very soft and the vehicle simply pushed him further down into the mud rather than killing him. He escaped with no significant injuries.
One of the lietenants in our class broke his arm the same way you noted, Tom. The worst injury we had on our crew was when we first shot Table 6 gunnery. I laid on the target and issued a fire command. After the gunner announced "On the Way" and squeezed the trigger, he started swearing loudly. He'd had his head pressed against the headpiece and the sight reticle recoiled and hit him in the eye. He did hit the target, though. After the next shot, the same thing happened again. Well, almost the same - it was the other eye that time. We called him "Rocky Racoon" for the rest of the course.
Speaking of "cherry juice," there was a joke in the Israeli army after the 73 war: "What's the difference between an American tank and a Zippo lighter?" "The American tank lights on the first attempt."

[tompritchett]

"What's the difference between an American tank and a Zippo lighter?" "The American tank lights on the first attempt."

I had heard it before but I thought that joke originated with the Germans in WW II talking about the gasoline powered Sherman.

One of my AOB instructors told the story about his previous station where a kid was ground guiding a tank into a tight column and made the mistake of standing between the tanks rather than to the side. Unfortunately for him, the tank he was guiding had very poor brakes. 150 pounds or so of flesh does not do a good job of stopping 52 tons of steel regardless of how slow that 52 tons is going. Need I say more.

Of course, these stories should give those reenactors without prior military experience an idea of why those of us with military experience can be so anal about safety.

[GaWildcat]

That St Barbara was watching over this man. I cant help but wonder

1) Where this took place
2) Where was the Chief of Section
3) Why his buddies just kind shuffled around nonchalantly
4) What was wrong with the breech and or firing mechanism that caused it go off like that.... I've seen gun apes bring the breech into battery pretty hard, and never seen nothing like that on M101s and M119s

Harold, I know what you mean about accidents on the line of metal. We had a couple when I was in the branch. We had one guy forget to make a fist when he rammed the round in and got a fingertip cut off by the breechblock, and we had a few that could have been devastating, and one could have meant my absence from this mortal coil.. that one[ was a pair of short rounds (mis layed QE by the firing batteries) during FIST Evals..

We also had one dumb gun ape on the RT during fire missions miss read the Time on a Mechanical Time fuze, and instead of 22.2, he relayed 2.2... the question those of us in the FDC had was, why didnt the COS ask for verification???? we heard the gun go thum... and BOOOOOOM

had to change underwear afther that one!!

[GaWildcat]

And you can see the powder canister eject from the breech.. dont know if this is a part of the design, or was symptomatic of the failure.

[Harold Adams]

Bobby and all;
We had one guy; had a drinking problem and was pretty careless.
Out in the field at Grafenwohr, during March, (one of the worst times of the year, muddy miserable and rainy) (You know what they say, If its not raining its not training!)
We were shooting fire missions, he was our #1 cannoneer, and loading rather quickly, not waiting for quadrant to be sent by the FDC (ramming the round prematurely). While my section chief was watching this, we all thought that some of the hydraulic fluid (cherry juice) leaked out somewhere because he got sprayed in the face, with this, as well as it going all over the inside of the gun compartment. Before we knew it he had fire the round down range as well as his entire trigger finger. Apparently the old sot was taking some hits off of something he kept hidden in his ruck. And of course the red stuff was his own blood. He didn't realize what he had done, until he looked down and nonchalantly said, "oh sh**." Needless to say my section chief and gunner got relieved for this interesting event. The chief got a nice easy job over on post CIF (Central Issue Facility) (he must've known some "People" to get that job and only get a slap on wrist.) The rest of us went to other sections, with myself, and AG staying with howitzer and 548. That same Graf we had another idiot lose his weapon, so we spent an extra week out looking for a dissassembled M16A1. Eventually found it in a rock quarry (in pieces of course). Saint Barbara was looking out for our BC, XO, 1sg, Smoke and gunny, because nothing happened to them.
Anyway I an go on and on.
For all the bad things that happened there were far more good things. Ahh the memories;-)

[Rob Weaver]

I had heard it before but I thought that joke originated with the Germans in WW II talking about the gasoline powered Sherman.

One of my AOB instructors told the story about his previous station where a kid was ground guiding a tank into a tight column and made the mistake of standing between the tanks rather than to the side. Unfortunately for him, the tank he was guiding had very poor brakes. 150 pounds or so of flesh does not do a good job of stopping 52 tons of steel regardless of how slow that 52 tons is going. Need I say more.

Of course, these stories should give those reenactors without prior military experience an idea of why those of us with military experience can be so anal about safety.
It could have originated then. Interestingly enough, I remember hearing it on 60 Minutes during the cherry juice controversy in the mid-70s.

[3rd_PA_Artillery]

:D It was funny enough when you told me about this at the living history, but that was hilarious!


Even the little ones are dangerous!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWq6rYftX5w

[Cove Rebel]

In one of my units, about a year before I joined it, they had a driver literally ripped in half when he got upset with his tank commander and decided to get out of the drivers hatch without telling anyone what he was doing. Unfortunately for him, the gunner happened to traverse the turret bringing the gun tube across the driver's hatch just as he was half way out. With tanks and artillery, mistakes in judgement and lapses in concentration can often lead to broken bones, dislocated joints and even death.

This happened in 3/37AR at Ft Riley when I was in that unit during field training. Just wondering if this is the same unit you were in later? Dang horrific injury.

[tompritchett]

This happened in 3/37AR at Ft Riley when I was in that unit during field training. Just wondering if this is the same unit you were in later? Dang horrific injury.

No, it was not. The death that I was referring to happened in 1979 (I believe), and the unit was the 2/102d Armor NJARNG. But it does not surprise me that it has happened more than once. When I was with the KyARNG, one of our units was doing tank gunnery at Ft. Knox and a platoon of Basic training troops got lost on a night orienteering course and wandered across the road into the gunnery ranges. One of tank commanders thought a group of them were cardboard silhouettes and gave the command, "Gunner, Troops, Machine gun, Fire". Fortunately the gunner replied back "Are they supposed to be moving?", which resulted in an immediate "Cease Fire" command and the range being shut down. It is my understanding from the members of my support platoon providing support that weekend (my platoon was broken into sections that month providing support on the various weekends that individual companies were firing that month), that they spent the rest of the evening having to shut down the range periodically to round up stray Basic training troops that had wandered onto the range. It was a miracle that none of them were shot accidentally that night.

[Rob Weaver]

Given that's it's been over 20 years, I feel safe in talking about this now: I was shooting the night phase of Tank Table VII (moving tank gunnery, not for qualification) at Ft Irwin, CA. My crew was in a hull down position prepared for the "one tank to your front" engagement. The wind was blowing hard; we had no artificial illumination. As soon as targets were raised, they cooled off and wouldn't leave enough heat signature to show up on the TTS. Because the engagement can't begin if the crew can't see the target, the tower kept lowering and raising targets to get us one we could identify. We continued to scan through the thermals to acquire them. My gunner swung to the left and laid his crosshairs on the brightest, most perfect target I had ever seen: the grill doors of the company commander's tank, parked underneath the range tower. We were pointed over the left rear fender, utterly out of the range fan. (It's hard to know where you are inside a turret in the dark. Tom will understand.) Furthermore, I had had a very vocal, public arguement with the commander that afternoon after 20 hours on the range previous. I remember to this day the feeling of my heart pounding against my voicebox. We were crosswired so the tower could hear every word we intercommed each other. I turned the intercom off and patted my gunner on the back. (Actually, I think it was more like frantic pounding.) Very calmly, he replied: "I know. I see it, Sir." Then he swung right. We found a target and hit it. If we'd lit up the old man's vehicle that night, no one on earth would have ever believed it was an accident after our afternoon conflab.