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View Full Version : World's Largest Confederate Flag, Park and Monument Dedicated

FloridaConfederate
04-26-2009, 05:35 PM
How is this for Confederate Memorial Day ?

http://www.tampabay.com/?hidden01=&hidden02=&hidden03=&hidden04=&hidden05=&hidden06=&hidden07=&hidden08=&hidden09=&hidden10=&hidden11=&hidden12=&hidden13=&hidden14=&q=confederate+flag+tampa&choices=site

Video is on right toward bottom of page !

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-26-2009, 06:28 PM
You looked good Chris. Nice frock! The video once again is a great example of the camera capturing everything done at a given time. Some people should consider that when engaged in certain thoughts, deeds, or actions. Mourning wear isn't necessarily the clothing to be wearing when dancing at a shindig, and really, I had no idea that 13 years black girls were the first targets of northern agressors when marching into the south...

Danny
04-26-2009, 06:41 PM
How is this for Confederate Memorial Day ?...
Video is on right toward bottom of page !Chris RideoutTampa, Florida

Fat old grey reenactors and supporters using an incorrect Confederate National flag in defense of a long-lost cause, misusing the word liberty as if everyone in the South had that before the CW, and misusing the word invasion as if the invasion of U.S. Arsenals in the South didn't count.

Still, a fun bunch...

dw

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-26-2009, 07:46 PM
Fat old grey reenactors and supporters using an incorrect Confederate National flag in defense of a long-lost cause, misusing the word liberty as if everyone in the South had that before the CW, and misusing the word invasion as if the invasion of U.S. Arsenals in the South didn't count.

Still, a fun bunch...

dw
Normally I wouldn't jump at the obvious old flamebait, but on this one I'm going to. It bothers me at times to see uneducated comments from some people who only portray one side and have an obvious bias toward one region or the others. I guess I'm a little subjective myself, but that comes from years of scholarship for both sides of the conflict. I live about 7 minutes from the site that flag flies, but its well known in most circles that I don't see eye to eye with the group putting that flag up (go back the last few months to see a few posts) but I'm going to break down your response just a little:
"Fat old grey reenactors" - theres no lacking of those on the Union side either. Just look at any collection of photos or videos out there.
"incorrect Confederate National flag" - they've never claimed it to be anything other than what it is, the battle flag
"misusing the word liberty" - historians will be arguing that one long after we're dead, but many agree that liberty was indeed trampled on during this war, north and south.
other than all that I agree with you on the invasion stuff. When I went today to the park where this was all held, it bothered me alot to see the "invasion" propaganda on their monument.

Spinster
04-26-2009, 08:51 PM
While I've no love lost with the SCV, find that their outfits often make my eyes bleed, and HIGHLY OBJECT to fat gals in daisy dukes dancing around while wearing ANY flag for clothing............. it seems they do know their dictionary.

Merriam-Webster:
in·va·sion
Pronunciation: \in-ˈvā-zhən\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English invasioune, from Anglo-French invasion, from Late Latin invasion-, invasio, from Latin invadere to invade Date: 15th century
1: an act of invading ; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
2: the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful

Encarta:
in·va·sion [ in váy'n (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx?search=invasion) ] (plural in·va·sions)noun

Definition: 1. attempt to conquer: a hostile entry by an armed force into a country's territory, especially with the intention of conquering it

2. arrival in large numbers: the arrival of large numbers of people or things at one time
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gifhttp://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifan invasion of tourists

3. spoiling: a spoiling of something by interfering with it or taking some of it away

4. spread of something harmful: the arrival or spread of something that causes damage or harm

5. medicine spread of disease: the spread of disease-causing organisms or malignant cells in the body

6. botany aggressive spread of plant: the aggressive spread of a plant species in an area, stifling the growth of preexisting species

[15th century. Directly or via French< late Latin invasion-< Latin invas-, past participle of invadere (see invade (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861622183/invade.html))]

And if one thinks that definition # 6 does not quite apply, look to the percentage of folks born in Florida as opposed to the total of folks living there--and where those folks are from.......;-) http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gif

brown30741
04-26-2009, 09:07 PM
Laughs aside...
I guess the thing that scared me most was the notion of not remembering, but raising up a new generation of Confederates. As southern as I may or may not be, I am an American by the grace of God (to turn a bumper sticker) and I am thankful we are one country, warts and all. I wasn't there and I'm certain there were people there for the memorial aspect, but it seems the old "honor them for their dedication" message of healed wounds is dying and a new era of threats against the country I love has hyjacked a memorial service for men, many of whom died Americans again.

tompritchett
04-26-2009, 10:04 PM
I guess the thing that scared me most was the notion of not remembering, but raising up a new generation of Confederates. As southern as I may or may not be, I am an American by the grace of God (to turn a bumper sticker) and I am thankful we are one country, warts and all.

Amen. I still consider myself a Southerner, although transplanted, reenact as a Confederate soldier and cringe when either party decides it wants to trample on Constitution and the Bill of Rights regardless of the reason. But most importantly, I am an American first and foremost. That obligation trumps everything including party affiliation. If I disagree with the stances of my government and its representatives, I do go off and threaten a new round of secessions but instead regularly let my Congressmen know what my opinions are matters of importance to me and occasionally voice my opinion in public media such as Letters to the Editor and never fail to vote. IMHO, far too many Americans have abdicated their responsibilities as citizens and allowed the special interest groups to become the only voices our representatives every hear. Let us never forget President Kennedy's famous challenge to all U.S. citizens - "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country". It is a message that is as applicable today as it was when it was first given.

5 th Alabama Infantry
04-27-2009, 04:26 AM
God Bless Marion Lambert and the Florida Division, SCV for all their hard work and effort on this project.

Elliott Cummings
Maryland Division
Sons of Confederate Veterans

sbl
04-27-2009, 06:14 AM

04-27-2009, 08:23 AM
Fat old grey reenactors and supporters using an incorrect Confederate National flag in defense of a long-lost cause, misusing the word liberty as if everyone in the South had that before the CW, and misusing the word invasion as if the invasion of U.S. Arsenals in the South didn't count.

Still, a fun bunch...

dw

Your cynasism aside concerning "old fat reenactors", most Southerners realize that the Battle Flag was never a National Flag. You take out of context the word "liberty". Yes, despot Lincoln yearned to surpress State Rights in favor of a centralized government. And no, his motivation for the invasion of the South was not to emancipate the slave population, (that was an ancillory effect), it was to hold the Southern States inside a "voluntary compact". Finally, if you follow the money trail...the invasion and usurption of Southern Rights was done for taxes and the filling of federal coffers. A very famous, insightful interchange between Dishonset Abe and General Winfield Scott happened early on when Scott advised Lincoln to let the Southern States go on their own and create their own nation. Lincoln ruefully replied, "Let them go? Let them go! Where shall we find our revenues?"

That was the real reason for the War of Northern Aggression. ;-)

Danny
04-27-2009, 09:23 AM
...from some people who only portray one side and have an obvious bias toward one region or the others....I'm going to break down your response just a little: "Fat old grey reenactors" - theres no lacking of those on the Union side either..."incorrect Confederate National flag" - they've never claimed it to be anything other than what it is, the battle flag...
"misusing the word liberty" - historians will be arguing that one long after we're dead, but many agree that liberty was indeed trampled on during this war, north and south...

Ross - Well, my response certainly has been broken down... may I repair it?

First of all, let's not call people uneducated unless we know that to be the case. Being a college grad is not license to flaunt it.

The was no "side" taken. I'm an American calling out an obvious bias demonstrated in the video. (As a reenactor, I've got a Confederate kit too, btw). Those folks in the video represent an attitude, not a region. There are more folks in the South without a Confederate heritage than with a Confederate heritage.

I never suggested there weren't fat old grey Union reenactors, that was flat out made up.

True, in the video no one appears to be claiming they're using anything other than the Confederate battle flag, yet they specifically said they were invaded. Nations are invaded, not armies. They use the wrong flag.

Liberty was indeed trampled on during that war, North and South. But point is the Confederate nation was not defending the Liberty as spelled out by the Founders: all men are created equal, ...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness etc. Slaves in the South did not have Liberty before the ACW, case closed.

...it seems they do know their dictionary.

Mrs. Lawson, slaves in the South did not have Liberty before the ACW, even using your extensive dictionary definition of it. That means the folks in the video do not know their dictionary.

My extended family in the South is not represented in that video, and I doubt Ross', Tom's or Spinster's is either. Why the defense, and of what?

Dan Wykes

Blair
04-27-2009, 10:06 AM
Danny,

Cheezit,You have a boat load of hate going on here. Did some Southerner pee on your grave in your past life?

quote "Slaves in the South did not have Liberty before the ACW."
You forgot to add Slaves in the North did not have any Liberty before the ACW either. And for sometime after the ACW if I recall. It took an Amendment to the bill of rights to correct that little over sight.

quote "I never suggested there weren't fat old grey Union reenactors,"
No Danny you didn't "suggest it" and everybobdy knows you didn't say it. You implied it through and with innuendo as you do with most all your hate rhetoric.
Blair Taylor

sbl
04-27-2009, 10:20 AM
As as old fat grey reenactor I have to report that Isreal now has the world's largest flag at the Masada site. North Korea has the tallest flag pole.

GaWildcat
04-27-2009, 10:41 AM
One thing about that video... the woman in mourning beboping with the gal in MARPAT and rebel flag shirt.... (now gouging my eyes out with a fork).

Okay more to the point of what I want to say.. Alot of rhetoric going an around here, and not just on the video.

Mr. Wykes, I gotta hand it to ya, sir, you can sure stir up a hornet's nest! I have seen a lot of the stuff you post and boy oh boy it's fun to sit back watch the fur fly...but the anti- Southern stuff is about played out. Now, hang on, for I am also gonna say that so is some of the anti-Northern stuff that gets posted on this forum.

I am not a member of the SCV, and the stuff uttered in this video is just one of the reasons why not. Some of the stuff stated had me in absolute shock. I mean, where did the stuff about rape come from???? Cheese and Crackers (no offense meant :D ) the way that woman spouted off would make you think that the whole Federal Army was full of rapists. Anybody got the statistics on rape during the war? For some reason I dont think it was as high as this woman pointed out. And raising Confederates? Seems we should be raising Americans, who are historically aware of the their Confederate ancestory, proud of thier sacrifice, and prouder still of the Nation in which they live. Very proud of my ancestors... Confederate and Union, and prouder still to be an American.

Danny
04-27-2009, 10:54 AM
...You forgot to add Slaves in the North did not have any Liberty before the ACW either. And for sometime after the ACW if I recall. It took an Amendment to the bill of rights to correct that little over sight...

All those things I agree are very true, and good point. Still, the Confederacy was not defending Liberty as the folks in the vid claimed, that's all.

...you didn't "suggest it" and everybobdy knows you didn't say it. You implied it through and with innuendo...Blair Taylor

So, I didn't suggest it and everybody knows I didn't say it... two ways I could have implied it and didn't. I think I would know.

Blair, nobody cares about the personal stuff. I appreciate you have issues, but as for me I don't even have especially strong feelings on this topic, let alone hate, but I'm not blind or deaf and it's ok on a forum to call 'em as you see 'em.

If you've got an opinion of the video, just put it down. If you make a good case it will stand on its own and make me look the fool. Slander isn't needed, or wanted.

dw

tompritchett
04-27-2009, 11:09 AM
most Southerners realize that the Battle Flag was never a National Flag.

While your statement might apply to members of the SCV and CW reenactors, I am not sure that it would apply to the general Southern population. I know that I never learned about the National Flags during all the years that I grew up in the South and I was exposed to three separate regions of the South in my youth

A very famous, insightful interchange between Dishonset Abe and General Winfield Scott happened early on when Scott advised Lincoln to let the Southern States go on their own and create their own nation. Lincoln ruefully replied, "Let them go? Let them go! Where shall we find our revenues?"

Given the extent that the Federal government was reliant on revenues collected on tariffs collected at Southern ports, such a comment does not surprise me, but could you please provide a reference source for the statement. Thank you.

Danny
04-27-2009, 11:17 AM
Your cynasism aside concerning "old fat reenactors", most Southerners realize;-)

Again, not most Southerners, only those with a Confederate heritage, and not all of them.

Your points about the Union cause are valid, after all they had slaves in the North at one time and they were financially bleeding the South. There were bad politicians in the North. The Union or Lincoln didn't enter the war to free slaves, we all know it. The free blacks in the North only had a tiny bit more liberty than slaves, we all know it.

Still, the folks in the video implied the Confederacy was about defense of Liberty, and that's not true because Southern slaves had no Liberty, that's all :(

Nobody gets a pass.

dw

Danny
04-27-2009, 11:44 AM
...but the anti- Southern stuff is about played out. Now, hang on.

Bobby -

...but nothing. You cannot find nor did I ever post any anti-Southern stuff.

Dan Wykes

04-27-2009, 11:47 AM
While your statement might apply to members of the SCV and CW reenactors, I am not sure that it would apply to the general Southern population. I know that I never learned about the National Flags during all the years that I grew up in the South and I was exposed to three separate regions of the South in my youth

Given the extent that the Federal government was reliant on revenues collected on tariffs collected at Southern ports, such a comment does not surprise me, but could you please provide a reference source for the statement. Thank you.

The quote is from the Kennedy book, "The South was Right". I can not provide the page number since I don't have it in front of me. However, the quote was originally used in a post war book authored by Raphael Semmes.

mnreb
04-27-2009, 12:06 PM
I just have to get my 2 cents in. What about the free blacks in the south. Too many people talk or assume that every black person in the south was a slave. As far as liberty goes, it could be in the eye of the beholder. One can make it fit where it most benifits them.
Sincerely,
Bill Feuchtenberger
Co. H
1st South Carolina Volunteers
"It Do"

Malingerer
04-27-2009, 12:20 PM
I just have to get my 2 cents in. What about the free blacks in the south. Too many people talk or assume that every black person in the south was a slave. As far as liberty goes, it could be in the eye of the beholder. One can make it fit where it most benifits them.
Sincerely,
Bill Feuchtenberger
Co. H
1st South Carolina Volunteers
"It Do"
Bill, I not certain what your point is but you are certainly correct. Accrording to the1860 census, roughly 262,000 (about 6.5%) Blacks living in the slave states were "free". Of course the census makes no mention of the various state and local laws restricting the movements and privilages of these folks so I'm a little uncertain how liberated they felt.

But here's a question for those of us interested in honoring our Confederate heritage: is it possible to pay homage to the heroism and sacrifice of the Confederate veteran without embracing the cause of the Confederacy itself?

GaWildcat
04-27-2009, 12:38 PM
But here's a question for those of us interested in honoring our Confederate heritage: is it possible to pay homage to the heroism and sacrifice of the Confederate veteran without embracing the cause of the Confederacy itself?

Peter..

That is a great question. And IMHO, I think we can.

Lets look at it this way... you are in the Army; you have an officer that is, well, not exactly the most popular person, yet you are required to respect him... oh wait, no your not... your required to respect his rank. The same could be said for a President with whom you do not agree.. you must respect The office. We can do the same thing with the Cornfed soldier, or in a stretch the Deutschen Soldat of WW2. Respect the fighting spirit, and devotion to country, home and hearth that caused them to fight as hard as they did, even if you dont agree with their cause, or parts of their cause. I admire the **** out anyone who has worn their country's uniform in combat, Volunteer or conscript, because either way, they didnt start the war, nor did they end the war, but they were the ones that had to do the fighting, the killing, and the dieing. Soldiers are men (and now women), they are not ideas or ideologies. They may sometimes agree with the ideology, or they may not. They may know why they are at war, they may not.

Hope this made some kinda sense... it did when I was typing it...

sbl
04-27-2009, 01:45 PM
What if the \$ spent on the "world's largest" was given as a scholarship in the name of the group?

Just sayin......

Malingerer
04-27-2009, 02:12 PM
Bobby, to latch on to your excellent observation, I would also add that regardless of whatever initial motivation individual Confederate soldiers may have felt at the time of their enlistments (and for many that motivation was simply a sense of obligation to their communitiy), by the war's end the motivation to stay in the ranks was the community of brotherhood within the unit. They were fighting for each other. That, to me is something to be honored, cherished, and remembered. But these loudmouth twits featured in the video ultimately do the Confederate veteran a tremendous disservice with their single-minded dedication to tying the Confederate veteran with the cause of the Confederacy. Not to mention they project upon all of us from the south the same negative stereotypical image ( in-your-face-hey-you-wannna-fight-about-it-unrepentant-redneckism).

mnreb
04-27-2009, 02:59 PM
I could not agree more with Peter and Bobby. I would like to add that the reason or cause as one may put it, varied from common soldier to plantation owner to politican. I believe that there were many causes all mixed together. It is then left up to each individual to pick which one they say is the so called cause. There are too many opinions on that one. I might also add that it makes me sick when I see other groups flying the battle flag as if it was made for the purpose of spreading their narrow minded views and hate. One can blame the politcal motives behind any war, but one should honor the soldiers who served.
Sincerelyl,
Bill Feuchtenberger
Co. H
1st South Carolina Volunteers
"It Do"

Joey12thga
04-27-2009, 03:21 PM
All the other stuff in this thread aside. I cringe when I see the money basically wasted on this kind of political project jus to get under the skin of folks and get media airtime. Why can't they have spent the money to buy up battlefield land? Heck I don't even care if they only bought the Confederate side and let the SUV raise funds to buy the Union side.

FloridaConfederate
04-27-2009, 03:43 PM
My personal feelings....

At the outset I was onboard pitched as a park and monument. Then the monument took a back seat to getting a giant flag up..which I spoke my disagreement on (imagine that) and really pissed off about 80% of the SCV, including Mr. Lambert. The flag was an in your face move, which I support anyones right to do, but I find it detracted credibility from the monument and park which I was stoked about.

I then removed my funding and involvement from the project. The park part has come a long way.....but is not fully completed.

I do not support the flying of any CS flag outside of a historical connection on public lands. This is a private park, on private land built entiriely with private funds.

As to the video and the event..typical. You could go around any n'actment and if you ask around find some interesting individuals and viewpoints. The event was like your typical Florida event. Lots of overall good folks and their families with albeit poor historically representative impressions; whose motivations are varied, often flawed, but on the whole I am confident far from nefarious or anti-Patriotic.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-27-2009, 06:27 PM
To the esteemed Mr. Julius who I've had the pleasure of falling in with at one quality event and have had several discussions with over the years and to the ever-witty Mr. Rideout who I'm proud to call pard, thank you both for an wonderful evening of consulting www.dictionary.com. I haven't seen words like that since 1990 in English 102! This sh## is getting good. On the serious side, Chris and I share similiar experiences with the SCV over this an other issues, and its hard to have the passion for the southland and particularly the soldiers who gave their all in the conflict and not get passionate. There are many things on that video that make us both cringe, but we're probably using our reenactor/living historian eyes which at times can be even more harsh than that of the general public. There are many things I'd like to see done before the raising of a very large flag, but one thing that it did do is bring about discussion - some of it really good and some of it really bad.

FloridaConfederate
04-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Jules and I are good to go.

On another note it was an impressive single gathering of a swarm of Mountain Howitzers complete with a very high RTH ratio (red to howitzer).

I think, to use a PJ favorite, the wad has been blown on this one and there isn't much more in your face I reckon to be had out of it...the response locally was....Meh.

I would like to see the focus on completing the park and have it come together as a monument which finally there is every indication it is and it be respected as such for the true memory of the CS soldier (as in no vandalism). If you would like to get your CS ancestors name on the bloody thing go here:

http://www.tampaflag.info/contribute.htm

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-02-2009, 08:30 AM
All the other stuff in this thread aside. I cringe when I see the money basically wasted on this kind of political project jus to get under the skin of folks and get media airtime. Why can't they have spent the money to buy up battlefield land? Heck I don't even care if they only bought the Confederate side and let the SUV raise funds to buy the Union side.

Not much more political, and to get under people’s skin, than putting the Arthur Ashe statue on Monument Avenue rather than at a tennis center, or putting Lincoln at Tredegar where he had never been.

According to some on this board, money not used for battlefield preservation or scholarships is “wasted.” Apparently many do not agree.

The wonderful statue and memorial at Confederate Memorial Park at Point Lockout, Maryland that cost tens of thousands of dollars and was started as a direct response to the Veterans Administration banning the Confederate Flag and censoring free speech at the Federal cemetery there is a perfect example.

05-05-2009, 08:43 AM
Not much more political, and to get under people’s skin, than putting the Arthur Ashe statue on Monument Avenue rather than at a tennis center, or putting Lincoln at Tredegar where he had never been.

According to some on this board, money not used for battlefield preservation or scholarships is “wasted.” Apparently many do not agree.

The wonderful statue and memorial at Confederate Memorial Park at Point Lockout, Maryland that cost tens of thousands of dollars and was started as a direct response to the Veterans Administration banning the Confederate Flag and censoring free speech at the Federal cemetery there is a perfect example.

Elliott...You are exactly right. There is no logical reason for why the Ashe statue was placed where it is located, or why Lincoln is at Tredegar. Of course they're the same folks at (Tredegar) that wanted to place the Jefferson Davis statue in a closet. Interestingly, as I'm sure you are aware, the Jefferson Davis statue prominently featured Jim Limber, the little black boy that the Davis family rescued and who was essentially part of their family. That historical message does not conveniently fit in with the political corrrectness of our era, and to have that type of statue displayed at Tredegar would not have been keeping with the message that Southern leaders were racists and the war was fought over slavery. (We just can't have that). :rolleyes:

All we can do is keep educating folks and hope that the true message is heard and assimilated.

Danny
05-13-2009, 01:23 PM
...the Jefferson Davis statue prominently featured Jim Limber, the little black boy that the Davis family rescued and who was essentially part of their family...All we can do is ...hope that the true message is heard and assimilated.