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5 th Alabama Infantry
04-24-2009, 02:03 PM
Alabama Councilman removes Confederate Flags from Confederate graves.

http://www.oanow.com/oan/news/local/article/councilman_removes_confederate_flags_from_graves/69708/

Another outrageous assault on our Confederate Heritage

DamYankee25
04-24-2009, 02:11 PM
Wow, I'm at a loss for words. I hope they sue this guy or do something, those graves are technically private property not this jerk.

mladair
04-24-2009, 02:47 PM
...those graves are technically private property...

While the article implies that the graves are "owned" by the families, and therefore private property, that may not necessarily be the case. One would have to specifically look at the legal documents, deeds, etc.

I sit on my local city cemetery board, and while we sell lots, and the purchasers receive deeds, they only receive the right to bury someone in that lot. They do NOT own the lot, or have the rights to do whatever they want on those lots. It is a common misconception that you always "own" the land of a burial lot. It may be true in some cases, but in many, you only "own" the rights to bury someone there.

Matt Adair

sbl
04-24-2009, 02:53 PM
Topsfield, Massachusetts.....

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/sbl1952/Civil%20War%20sites/WmTaylorCSA2.jpg

5 th Alabama Infantry
04-24-2009, 02:55 PM
Topsfield, Massachusetts.....

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/sbl1952/Civil%20War%20sites/WmTaylorCSA2.jpg


Scott

Your photo is much appreciated and our thanks to who ever placed the flags.

Elliott

sbl
04-24-2009, 03:05 PM
I shot the photo in 2008. My Union unit was in on the dedication of the new stone for William Buckner back in the 90s. There's a man in a local vet organization the keeps up the grave. There are several other Confederate graves in Rowley, Ma. and Rockport, Ma.

Not being down there I don't know what the whole story is. Too bad it looks like a black/white thing. I frankly think the dead should be left alone and that some communication with folks offended could be reached. Hey that's just me.

Jim Mayo
04-24-2009, 04:18 PM
Could be that he is guilty of descration of a grave site. It is the same as if he knocked over the grave stone. That is a crime in most places.

48alabama
04-24-2009, 04:31 PM
This pathetic individual got exactly what he wanted.......his photo in the newspaper.Also,wearing a cross on his neck.What a hippocrite.Selective forgive and forget.
Mark Hull

sbl
04-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Could be that he is guilty of descration of a grave site. It is the same as if he knocked over the grave stone. That is a crime in most places.


It sounds more like bad judgement rather than intentional destruction.

gwagner
04-24-2009, 04:50 PM
S13A-7-23.1

(a) Any person who willfully or maliciously injures, defaces, removes or destroys any tomb, monument, gravestone or other memorial of the dead, or any fence or any inclosure about any tomb, monument, gravestone or memorial, or who willfully and wrongfully destroys, removes, cuts, breaks or injures any tree, shrub, plant, flower, decoration, or other real or personal property within any cemetery or graveyard shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor.


E-mail the mayor and let him know how you feel, and the council.

Mayor bham@auburnalabama.org
City Council coagbemail@auburnalabama.org

5 th Alabama Infantry
04-24-2009, 05:56 PM
S13A-7-23.1

(a) Any person who willfully or maliciously injures, defaces, removes or destroys any tomb, monument, gravestone or other memorial of the dead, or any fence or any inclosure about any tomb, monument, gravestone or memorial, or who willfully and wrongfully destroys, removes, cuts, breaks or injures any tree, shrub, plant, flower, decoration, or other real or personal property within any cemetery or graveyard shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor.


E-mail the mayor and let him know how you feel, and the council.

Mayor bham@auburnalabama.org
City Council coagbemail@auburnalabama.org


Thank you very much for that information.

sbl
04-24-2009, 06:10 PM
Looks like there IS a case.

5 th Alabama Infantry
04-28-2009, 01:45 PM
SCV Telegraph
News for SCV members

SCV HQ SCV Blog CV Blog


Compatriots,
By now I think most of you have heard about the truly evil action of an official in Auburn.
Below is a release and request for action from Alabama Division Commander Reames.
Please read carefully and proceed as I know you can!
Deo Vindice
Chuck McMichael
CiC-SCV
scvcic72@gmail.com
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Gentlemen,

Please find below a press Release from the Alabama Division Sons of Confederate Veterans that will go out in the mail today to The local District Attorney, Alabama Attorney General, and U.S. Chief Judge for the Middle District of Alabama.

I have consulted with Alabama Division Judge Advocate Philip Davis on the matter and he
informs me that for us to get the District Attorney and Attorney General to act, they will need political pressure to do so.

To accomplish this I am calling for an intense letter writing campaign to the Four
offices below. Please keep your letters civil, but firm.

There is a very real likelihood that further calls for other action will be soon forthcoming.
The Alabama Division SCV will do everything in our power to bring this miscreant to justice.

Please forward this information to your camps.
Alabama Division Adjutant Mike Ricketts: Please forward this to your email list.

I thank you all for your time and effort on this very important issue.

Sincerely,
Robert Reames
Alabama Division Commander
Sons of Confederate Veterans
rcreames@aol.com
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Alabama Governor Bob Riley
State Capitol
600 Dexter Avenue
Montgomery, Alabama 36130

District Attorney's Office
37th Judicial Circuit of Alabama
Nick Abbett
2311 Gateway Drive, Suite 111
Opelika, Alabama 36801-6889
334-737-3446

State of Alabama Attorney General Troy King
500 Dexter Avenue
Montgomery, AL 36130

United States District Court Middle District of Alabama
Chief Judge Mark E. Fuller
c/o Ms. Debra P. Hackett
Clerk of Court
U.S. District Court
P.O. Box 711
Montgomery, AL 36101-0711
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Text from press release (original signed on Division Letterhead)
Press Release - April 28, 2009
The Alabama Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, repudiates the
lawless behavior of Auburn City Councilman Arthur L. Dowdell in removing Confederate
Memorial Flags from veteran's graves at Pine Hill Cemetery in Auburn, AL. Confederate
veteran graves are to be lawfully respected as any other American veteran graves, according
to United States Congressional Law.

Councilman Dowdell stated the flags were offensive to him. He then
broke Alabama state law when he trespassed on private property, and
desecrated sacred burial sites, and that is offensive to us.

By stealing and destroying the flag that was placed on a veteran's
grave, in the very presence of his descendant, Councilman Dowdell
violates every tenet of decent human behavior. He showed a dangerous propensity for
taking the law into his own hands, an action that will not be tolerated or otherwise
encouraged in others.

We believe this crime was motivated by hate, and want to see justice
done. We are requesting that the local District Attorney prosecute
Councilman Dowdell to the fullest extent of the law, and if need be,
we are counting on the Alabama Attorney General to see that the laws
of Alabama are upheld. Further, we would like to see Federal
Prosecuting Attorneys convict Dowdell for violating United States hate
crime laws.
Robert C. Reames
Alabama Division Commander
Sons of Confederate Veterans
rcreames@aol.com


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Reference Material
Opelika-Auburn News


HTTP://www.oanow.com/oan/news/local/article/councilman_removes_confederate_flags_from_graves/69708/
Katie Stallcup
Staff writer
Published: April 23, 2009

Mary Norman was shocked Thursday afternoon when Auburn Councilman
Arthur L. Dowdell pulled up a Confederate flag placed on her great-grandfathers's
grave and snapped it in half, she said.
Dowdell, who denies snapping the flag, said Thursday he was picking up his daughter from
Auburn Junior High School near the cemetery when several people told him they had a
problem with the flags.
He drove to the cemetery and started pulling up flags, he said.
"It's offensive to me,"he said. "To me, it represents the Ku Klux Klan and
racism."
The United Daughters of the Confederacy placed the flags earlier this week, as they have
done for 50 years, in preparation for a celebration Sunday of Confederate Memorial Day, Norman
said.
Confederate Memorial Day will be celebrated as a state holiday in Alabama Monday.
"I really didn't know exactly how to respond to him," she said. "I happen to be
a member of the Daughters of the Confederacy. "I was very surprised, especially (as he is) a city
councilman. I was amazed."
Norman was not personally involved in placing the flags.
"I'm a historian," she said. "We're not about hate, we're not about
anything like that. We just want to honor our state's rights, and I've got Confederate
ancestors, and I feel we should have the ability to do that."


Norman and a friend were takin g inventory of graves at Pine Hill Cemetery in Auburn when
Dowdell drove up and asked who put up the flags, she said.
"One of the flags had been placed on my great grandfather's grave, who was a
Confederate soldier," Norman said. "He just got very upset, and he went over to my
great grandfather's grave, picked up the flag and broke it in two."
She said Dowdell did not know the plot she stood on was her family's. The flags were
placed on soldiers' graves as a mark of respect, she said.
He pulled up Confederate flags from other soldiers' graves, too, she said.
Dowdell said in his years as councilman, he had never seen so many Confederate flags in one
place.
"I'm going on the record that this will never happen again," Dowdell said. "This
will never happen again as long as I'm on the city council."
Dowdell denied intentionally snapping the flag.
"It might have snapped itself," he said. "If it did, so what? If I had my way, I would
have broke them all up and stomped on them and burned them. That flag represents another
country, another nation."
Auburn Mayor Bill Ham said he was unaware of any incidents at the cemetery but said he
talked with Dowdell Thursday afternoon. Ham said his understanding was that all city
cemeteries have covenants governing how and what types of decorations can be placed on
graves, except for Pine Hill because it is so old. Ham said he believed Dowdell asked an
assistant city manager to look into making policies equal for cemeteries across the city.
"The bottom line is those grave plots are deeded property," Ham said. "We sell
those. So they are sold to the family of the individuals, and I think (plot owners) have a right to do exactly what they did, according to the city attorney."
Ham said in his conversation with Dowdell, the councilman suggested the flags be placed on
the graves for a shorter period of time, perhaps for 24 hours before the event.
For now, the remaining flags will stay on the graves because of the lack of covenant governing
Pine Hill, Ham said. But that could change in coming years.
"I certainly think we need to be consistent in all the cemeteries with whatever the policy
is, not only with this, but with everything," Ham said. "The council has got to make
that decision."


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx
AlabamaCode on desecration of venerated objects.
Section 13A-11-12
Desecration of venerated objects.
(a) A person commits the crime of desecration of venerated objects if he intentionally:
(1) Desecrates any public monument or structure or place of worship or burial; or
(2) Desecrates in a public place the United States or Alabama flag or
any other object of veneration by the public or a substantial segment thereof.
(b) Desecration of venera ted objects is a Class A misdemeanor.
(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §5555.)

U.S. Federal Law
Public Law 85-425 passed on May 23, 1958 states: .......the term "veteran" includes a
person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of
America during the Civil War.....








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mnreb
04-28-2009, 02:45 PM
Wow! Just goes to prove you can't fix stupid!

Bill Feuchtenberger
Co.H
1st South Carolina Volunteers
"It Do"

reddcorp
04-28-2009, 03:25 PM
Councilman Dowdell showed both his ignorance and arrogance. His ilk preach tolerance only to the extent that their beliefs and actions are tolerated. Other viewpoints and beliefs are not permitted and the holders of such other beliefs are generally made the subject of personal attack and vilification. In this instance, Dowdell showed open disdain for the fallen heroes whose graves he desecrated. He should be prosecuted for his actions. Were someone to desecrate the grave of, say, Martin Luther King, Jr.. no stone would remain unturned until the culprit was apprehended and punished.
But in this case, do not look to the Mayor of Auburn to do anything. Nor is it likely that the DA or Alabama's Attorney General will take any action. It is not politically correct to do so...there is no percentage for them in them taking action. Dowdell will merely play the "race card" and nothing will happen. His constituents will view him as a hero and he will remain on the city council. And it is most probable that he will pull another such stunt in the future. Who is the racist and the hater in this episode?
We have come to this, and more's the pity.

A.Redd

sbl
04-28-2009, 03:35 PM
It would be great if the Councilman gets justice in court and at the ballot box for doing this. Hate to see it as a them and us matter. Hopefully responsible folks will prevail.

rbright
04-28-2009, 10:34 PM
Just sent my two cents to one of the board members. Enclosed is a copy of what I sent. This might help but as quoted before, you can not fix stupid.

Dear Sirs:

http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13638

The above link is to the Civil war reenactors board. It includes links to the news article published in the Auburn, Alabama paper regarding this councilman. Please read the whole posting. This board honors the memories of both Union and Confederate soldiers and is one of the vital links to American Civil War Re-enactors. We are living historians and every time we go out we are teaching history. "If we do not learn from what history teaches us, we are doomed to repeat it." Being POLITICALLY CORRECT sometimes is not always correct. Since the Good Councilman admits his deed in the published paper, how would he feel if someone desecrated his grandfathers resting place or maybe he father's as I do not know if they are alive or deceased? I do not think he would like it much. The KEY point is RESPECT for ALL both living and dead. It is time that history get back toi basics and not be glossed over because it is uncomfortable for some!

I have just read the recent posting concerning the removal of memorial flags from the graves in question. How would you feel if someone removed the flags of fallen Federal soldiers or our veterans who have served so proudly. I sincerely think you would not stand for it. As the great grandson of a confederate soldier, I would not be pleased to no end. By the way he did survive the late war. This was an uncalled for action by the councilman.


Your humble servant

Lenwood R Brightwell
Omaha, Nebraska

trainwreck
04-29-2009, 12:19 AM
very well writen RB...I reenact with the 4th Alabama (Co. B.(as well as the 15th Mass)) I may not have been doing it long but i feel a sharp blow by reading those pages affecting the men I, aswell as all of you, honor by reenacting. This shouldnt be tolerated. these were people once. Americans. and they made the ultimate sacrifice in the war. it doesnt matter what they might have, or not have stood for. I've posted an article on the flags on a Canobie Lake Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canobie_Lake_Park) fan forum (http://s7.invisionfree.com/CanobieFans/index.php) and what responce (albiet little) i got was what a terrible thing was happaning...if not in the historic sence than in the "why would someone desicrate other peoples property like that"....

Just my two cents....let me be please

sbl
04-29-2009, 07:30 AM
very well writen RB...I reenact with the 4th Alabama (Co. B.(as well as the 15th Mass)) I may not have been doing it long but i feel a sharp blow by reading those pages affecting the men I, aswell as all of you, honor by reenacting. This shouldnt be tolerated. these were people once. Americans. and they made the ultimate sacrifice in the war. it doesnt matter what they might have, or not have stood for. I've posted an article on the flags on a Canobie Lake Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canobie_Lake_Park) fan forum (http://s7.invisionfree.com/CanobieFans/index.php) and what responce (albiet little) i got was what a terrible thing was happaning...if not in the historic sence than in the "why would someone desicrate other peoples property like that"....

Just my two cents....let me be please

I hope you were polite and used spell check. ;)

tompritchett
04-29-2009, 07:53 AM
I hope you were polite and used spell check.

While I normally do not condone people making negative comments on other people's spelling and grammar, Scott makes a very good point here. In cases such as this, when we do comment, we need to put our best foot forward and not look like a bunch of highly emotional, uneducated red-necks. Whether we like it or not, people will judge what you say as much as on the presentation as on the actual content. If you are ranting or raving or if your argument is loaded with grammatical and spelling errors, it is easier for the other side to use that presentation to easy dismiss the argument against their stance rather than give it the serious consideration that you wanted for it to have.

sbl
04-29-2009, 08:36 AM
You are right Thomas. I did put a "winky" at the end considering the age and geographic location of Mr. Trainwreck. Again I agree the that the councilman went overboard. Better to keep to legalities rather than emotion. All may notice that the Confederate National Flag is displayed at the Topsfield, Ma. grave site.

50th vice pres
04-29-2009, 08:58 AM
people should go back out and replace those flags just to prove to that man that they will not stand for what he did.

trainwreck
04-29-2009, 08:58 AM
I hope you were polite and used spell check. ;)

No I did not use spell check. I had to Download it and my brother wouldn't let me because he thought it would take up to much room. I have it now. But yes I should have triple-checked my post(s) and made sure they had correct spelling , especially on a thread like this. I apologies for this.

sbl
04-29-2009, 09:47 AM
Isn't spell check automatic on this forum if you use "post reply" or "preview post?"

trainwreck
04-29-2009, 10:03 AM
Do you use Firefox? That comes with a built-in spell check

sbl
04-29-2009, 10:11 AM
Yes I do. Maybe that's it.

Wishing a New Hampshire man well.

tompritchett
04-29-2009, 11:17 AM
Isn't spell check automatic on this forum if you use "post reply" or "preview post?"

No, that feature is specific to which browser you are using as well as what version of the browser and what add-ons programs are associated with it. That is why you are able to download YouTube videos while others are not.

Danny
04-30-2009, 08:46 AM
The Confederate battle flag with its post-war connotations will always be an affront to those feel their ancestors suffered under it, who were also Southerners, after all. So who can be surprised by such a reaction today? The man that robbed the flags was flat-out wrong, but we're naive if we're not allowing what his motivation might be.

Idea cap on. There's a way to honor deceased veterans for their service with a symbol equally appropriate but less inciteful... how about the Confederate/US crossed flags symbol used for so many other purposes to identify the CW?

Use of the crossed flags symbolizes the war in which the honored served, not a political entity that still incites an agenda from two sides.

To consider it further, the crossed flags symbol may be more appropriate because those veterans were, after all, also U.S. citizens before and after the conflict. They were U.S. Citizens far longer than they were Confederate citizens.

So would this particular problem have arisen if the flags just had the CW crossed flags symbol on them?

Going forward, would it be bad if their City Council banned the stars-n-bars unless it was part of the crossed flag symbol? In another way it would honor the deceased with the peace and decorum they should have expected from their reunited country.

Dan Wykes

sbl
04-30-2009, 08:52 AM
"Going forward, were their City Council to approve that for use on Confederate graves, it would honor the deceased by restoring the peace and decorum the deceased veterans should expect in their reunited country."

Danny all this is for the living. Most ceremonies and symbols of our culture are more often for the family, witnesses, community, and the living.

Danny
04-30-2009, 09:50 AM
"Going forward, were their City Council to approve that for use on Confederate graves, it would honor the deceased by restoring the peace and decorum the deceased veterans should expect in their reunited country."

Danny all this is for the living. Most ceremonies and symbols of our culture are more often for the family, witnesses, community, and the living.

Scott, if you knew there was going to be a fist fight on your grave, would you feel honored by that?

Those are real souls in those graves and we honor them -- not just family, witnesses, community, and the living. At least in Christian perspective, which many if not most of these veterans likely were.

dw

Pvt Schnapps
04-30-2009, 10:04 AM
If they used the CS national flag instead of the battle flag, it would be just as official and far less offensive. The KKK and nazis were the ones who ruined the battle flag as a simple and sincere expression of heritage.

Wouldn't the national be more appropriate anyway? Did the battle flag ever fly over a cemetery in the days of the actual Confederacy?

TheSignalCorpsGuy
04-30-2009, 10:29 AM
If they used the CS national flag instead of the battle flag, it would be just as official and far less offensive. The KKK and nazis were the ones who ruined the battle flag as a simple and sincere expression of heritage.

Wouldn't the national be more appropriate anyway? Did the battle flag ever fly over a cemetery in the days of the actual Confederacy?

.......that most modern southerners wouldn't even know what the First National is!!!

That's why I hang a First National beside a 34 star union flag in front of my house and nobody says a thing to me. Yet my neighbor flies a polyester 'rebel' flag and he gets all kinds of $*it!

FIRST NATIONAL! (they're too dumb to know!)

Danny
04-30-2009, 10:55 AM
If they used the CS national flag instead of the battle flag, it would be just as official and far less offensive...

M.A. -

True enough, but water past the bridge, because in popular culture the battle flag will forever stand for the Confederate heritage instead of the proper Confederate National flag. Required would be an extensive re-adjustment and educational campaign to make it accepted for such purposes as a grave marker. That's not ever going to happen.

Meanwhile, the crossed flags symbol does not require an extensive re-adjustment and educational campaign. It's already well-established as a symbol of the ACW. It would not be outrageous as as a City Council directive, and realistically might have a chance at being followed.

In other words, promote the thing that could actually work in deference to something that never would, compromising only some correctness in detail.

(As if you or I could effect any of this anyway :o ! Only a person of strong and long Southern heritage could even deem to make the suggestion).

dw

sbl
04-30-2009, 11:09 AM
Scott, if you knew there was going to be a fist fight on your grave, would you feel honored by that?

Those are real souls in those graves and we honor them -- not just family, witnesses, community, and the living. At least in Christian perspective, which many if not most of these veterans likely were.

dw

Danny, I plan to join my parents in a bake n' shake in the Atlantic. Folks are then free to dance on my grave. Being secular I don't think it matters to the dead anymore. The folks in that area are going to have to come to terms if they plan to get along as a community. I hope it's peacefully and satisfies the injured parties.

Danny
04-30-2009, 11:40 AM
...Being secular I don't think it matters to the dead anymore...

So, after all, not what most believe...

dw

5 th Alabama Infantry
04-30-2009, 12:05 PM
The Confederate battle flag with its post-war connotations will always be an affront to those feel their ancestors suffered under it, who were also Southerners, after all. So who can be surprised by such a reaction today? The man that robbed the flags was flat-out wrong, but we're naive if we're not allowing what his motivation might be.

Idea cap on. There's a way to honor deceased veterans for their service with a symbol equally appropriate but less inciteful... how about the Confederate/US crossed flags symbol used for so many other purposes to identify the CW?

Use of the crossed flags symbolizes the war in which the honored served, not a political entity that still incites an agenda from two sides.

To consider it further, the crossed flags symbol may be more appropriate because those veterans were, after all, also U.S. citizens before and after the conflict. They were U.S. Citizens far longer than they were Confederate citizens.

So would this particular problem have arisen if the flags just had the CW crossed flags symbol on them?

Going forward, would it be bad if their City Council banned the stars-n-bars unless it was part of the crossed flag symbol? In another way it would honor the deceased with the peace and decorum they should have expected from their reunited country.

Dan Wykes

Some of us aren’t willing to compromise the Battleflag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and some units of the Army of Tennessee just to placate a few modern day minority sensibilities.

Pvt Schnapps
04-30-2009, 12:50 PM
Some of us aren’t willing to compromise the Battleflag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and some units of the Army of Tennessee just to placate a few modern day minority sensibilities.

But the problem isn't with just "a few modern day minority sensibilities." Thanks to a century of postwar flag abuse by domestic terrorists, only a minority can today see the battle flag for what it stood for during three or four years of actual war. So you have to think of what damage you do to the message you want to send by using a symbol that has the opposite effect on most people.

Add to that the fact that the battle flag flew over combat troops and not civil institutions, and you have a symbol largely inappropriate for its intended purpose. That will not change no matter how you feel.

sbl
04-30-2009, 01:16 PM
"Most" like white bread and reality TV as well. Not claiming any superiority here. Chris R will be along soon to lecture me on the fine points of the Council of Trent. ;) ("WINK!")

sbl
04-30-2009, 01:17 PM
See above. Somebody must be happy.

http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?p=113934#poststop

Jim Mayo
04-30-2009, 03:20 PM
Some of us aren’t willing to compromise the Battleflag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and some units of the Army of Tennessee just to placate a few modern day minority sensibilities.


AMEN! Last time I checked it was a free country. The guy had no business doing what he did and that's that.

Danny
04-30-2009, 05:23 PM
AMEN! Last time I checked it was a free country. The guy had no business doing what he did and that's that.

Well in retrospect, neither was it anybody's business to enslave the guy's ancestors; or anybody's business to abscond the Confederate battle flag to represent something it was never intended to be*...

The man definitely should be tried, found guilty, and fined for his civil offense, but keep in mind the Boston Tea Party was also a civil offense. This man, whatever we think of him, was effecting a peacable act of civil disobedience in daylight, not as a criminal.

Dan Wykes

( * Good question was raised earlier; i.e. did they use the battle flag to drape notable Confederate coffins at the time, or the Confederate National flag?)

sbl
04-30-2009, 05:52 PM
Not a lot of support for Rev. Dowdell.....

http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&um=1&ned=us&ncl=ddi79CZo7hHmVZM&cf=all

billwatson2
04-30-2009, 06:28 PM
First off, that's not the stars and bars on the cemetery flags, it's the battle flag. Stars and bars is the First National.

Second off, our very own federal government continues to issue, without charge, specially designed headstones for Confederate graves, just as it provides headstones for all other veterans. These stones differ from all others. If our national government has gotten over it and seen fit to honor them as, one way or another, American military veterans, and with a special stone to note that there's a distinction here, a Confederate battle flag is just not that much more of a leap.

Oddly enough the part I find most offensive is that this councilman decided it was all right for him to barge in and start changing things around to suit his own idea of what's right. He shouldn't expect much respect for that, it is very much an egocentric postmodern entitlement mindset. As others are noting, it's not playing out particularly well with anyone down there. Not only do a surprising number of otherwise lethargic and apathetic people suddenly bleed grey when sliced across their heritage vein, others very much believe there's a way to get your problem with something solved without being confrontational. This guy isn't getting reelected, you can take that to Las Vegas and put it on a board.

VA Soldier
04-30-2009, 06:34 PM
One of the founding principles of our nation is that no one is above the law. Now I understand that this principle has not always been followed, nor will it probably ever truly be, but the point remains.

Amendment 14 of the US Constitution is supposed to guarantee equal protection before the law, here again I digress that what is supposed to be may not always or ever be, still it remains.

To all of this I say, and I believe most will agree, that the flags placed upon the graves of those soldiers / veterans...not knowing the year of their death was done so within accordance with all laws and statutes governing such things. While their method of removal was not.

While the answer seems simple enough...charge, arrest, and prosecute the offender for his crimes, thank you and good night...but in a world where things are more gray than black and white, it won't be that way.

Wrong is wrong and as the old saying goes, Two wrongs don't make a right. No matter how "wronged" the councilman felt by the flags, he was "wrong" in removing them.

Past history out of the window on how the flag has been used or misused and who's ancestors had what done to them the point remains, it was an illegal and immoral act that should be punished...but I'm not holding my breath as logic and common sense have never been strongsuits of the government, especially when they are fearful of past sins, real or imagined.

"Others milage may vary"

D.A. Jackson

Danny
04-30-2009, 07:51 PM
First off, that's not the stars and bars on the cemetery flags, it's the battle flag. Stars and bars is the First National...with a special stone to note that there's a distinction here, a Confederate battle flag is just not that much more of a leap...an egocentric postmodern entitlement mindset...

Bill -

The battle flag has stars on the bars, the reason it's also referred to that way, no big thing.

Otherwise there are several here, me included, that disagree with your assessment regarding the Confederate battle flag. We feel it is a big leap in perception from using the less volatile National flag or the crossed flag symbol. You or I can control our perceptions of the battle flag - we temper our view knowing the early history of it - but you cannot dismiss that others will have a more visceral reaction to it, and their perception is not less valid than your own, and their ancestors no less invested in the Civil War.

It could just as well be said that Lost Cause is an egocentric postmodern entitlement mindset, I think it has been described that way. It's truly from which side of the fence you look at this.

So here we have a guy that did an illegal thing. Let the court convict him for breaking a civil law and fine him. But let's not demonize the guy for acting on his principles in the tradition of civil disobedience... we may find ourselves in such a predicament at some point: tax protest, gun-control protest, battlefield real estate protest etc. etc. This is not a post-modern approach, it goes back to the Boston Tea Party.

We perhaps will have to agree to disagree, it's not an argument that can be won.

Dan Wykes

sbl
04-30-2009, 08:02 PM
The battle flag has stars on the bars, and is also referred to that way.

dw

Sorry Danny, not even in Massachusetts.

Danny
04-30-2009, 08:43 PM
...it was an illegal and immoral act...D.A. Jackson

D.A. -

It was illegal, but there's no basis (apparent in the story anyway) to call it immoral. He apparently felt he was acting in the right. There's no indication so far that he acted to make a profit, gain power, or had some other selfish and disingenuous purpose, or that his intent was to hurt someone.

It may come out, but until then it seems he's just protesting an evil he sees.

dw

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-30-2009, 09:04 PM
Danny, the first national is universally recognized as the "stars and bars" because that was the contemporary term used for it then, as now. As for your question about which flag was put on the soldiers coffins - usually none at all, except for dignitaries such as general or flag officers. The placing of flags on a coffin is a modern inception generally begun during WWII (except for naval burials at sea). One of the exceptions was for Thomas Jackson, who had one of the new second national flags placed on his coffin.

Danny
04-30-2009, 09:05 PM
...not even in Massachusetts.

No need to apologize. I stand corrected in that the "Stars and Bars" is most commonly used to identify the Confederate national flag. Never officially and not exclusively was my only small point.

dw

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-30-2009, 09:06 PM
I have absolutely no problem "demonizing" the gentleman as desecration is a far cry from demonstration. He was wrong plain and simple, despite what his personal convictions are.

Danny
04-30-2009, 09:09 PM
Danny, the first national is universally recognized as the "stars and bars" because that was the contemporary term used for it then, as now...

Not universally, and never officially, then or now, but I stand corrected as to it's being the most common reference to the Confederate national flag. And thanks for the reference on which flag covered Tom Jackson's coffin...hmmm

dw

Danny
04-30-2009, 09:29 PM
I have absolutely no problem "demonizing" the gentleman as desecration is a far cry from demonstration. He was wrong plain and simple, despite what his personal convictions are.

Well, the gentleman can say it was wrong, plain and simple, that Confederate flags populated the community cemetary.

So it remains a matter of perspective after all.

This is not to defend what he did - it was a poor choice for him to make in my perpective, but, Ross, removing a flag is barely a desecration. The grave and markers were left undisturbed. It's a civic offense worthy of a fine. The man's no demon, lighten up.

dw

reddcorp
04-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Auburn is a short drive from Montgomery, where I live, so this story was a hot item this week. Councilman Dowdell (who insisted on being referred to as Bishop Dowdell) was on a local radio talk show yesterday morning, which, by the way, is hosted by a black gentleman. Even the host was put off by this man's racist rhetoric and like most, opined that Dowdell was way out of line. This man's tone of voice reflected arrogance and what he truly is...a demagogue, driven by the desire to put on a show for his constituents rather than by any true offense created by the flags on Confederate graves. From his tone, there is no doubt that he would do the same thing again, if given the opportunity. So, should he be "demonized?" I vote yes.
A.Redd

Ross L. Lamoreaux
04-30-2009, 10:20 PM
It is absolutely no different than tearing off a US flag from a veterans grave. They are after all both AMERICAN flags. It is most definitely desecration regardless of whether the grave or marker was messed with. I would no sooner go around tearing flowers from a grave let alone a flag that the veteran fought under.

50th vice pres
04-30-2009, 10:39 PM
...a demagogue, driven by the desire to put on a show for his constituents rather than by any true offense created by the flags on Confederate graves.
While this may be true, I believe he personally didn't want them there either, probably because to him it represents slavery, and if he was taught the same lie I was taught in school the civil war was all about freeing/keeping slaves. My guess is he won't believe the truth about the war and only sees slavery being represented by those flags. And Danny, while you agree and say what this man did was wrong, it almost sounds to me that your defending his right to do what he did. Am I wrong here? Far as I'm concerned, this councilman is scum for this action that he did ALL BY HIMSELF and without going thru the proper channels with other councilman/woman.

Blair
04-30-2009, 10:52 PM
From "The Confederate Soldier in the Civil War" The Fairfax Press.
Official Flags of the Confederacy,
"The "Stars and Bars" was the firs flag of the Confederate States, and was adopted by the Confederate Congress, in session at Montgomery, Ala.,and was elevated to the summit of the staff on the Capitol at Montgomery, Ala., on March 4, 1861."

"The "Battle Flag" was designed by Gen. Beauregard, adopted by Gen. J E Johnston, after the first battle of Manassas (Bull Run),and afterward adopted by the Confederate Congress. The reason was the "Stars and Bars" was frequently mistaken for the "Stars and Stripes" during the smoke and dust of battle."
Officially and Universally Recognized.
I know Danny, you don't recognize it so it Can't be Universal.
That is it in a nut shell.
Blair Taylor

sbl
05-01-2009, 09:01 AM
AS for his man-made titles of Rev. and Bishop, those don't get him a leg up or a seat at the table in this incident. Too many shamen use those titles to lend authority to want they say or want.

All societies look down on desecrating graves. That's why there are secure tombs, fences around cemeteries, secular laws, and cultural "taboos" NOT to do it.

Danny
05-01-2009, 12:41 PM
..."The "Battle Flag" was designed by Gen. Beauregard, adopted by Gen. J E Johnston, after the first battle of Manassas (Bull Run),and afterward adopted by the Confederate Congress......Blair Taylor...

Which still begs the question, wouldn't the stars and bars be as appropriate to mark a veterans grave? No smoke of battle problem there...

Meanwhile what started as that battle flag went on after the war to represent the lost cause, anti voters rights, anti-civil rights. And it was seen in the hands or more than a few lynch mobs. It got away from the good people.

There's the real desecration: what was an honorable symbol of an honorable army during the war became a symbol of hate after the war. Not to me, not to you, but you can understand certainly to some, and particualrly to this "bishop." He's got eyes, he lived the life, he knows what flag followed the anti-vote / anti civil-rights groups. It's not like he's wrong to have associated that flag with those groups. It's on film, we can't deny it, he didn't make it up.

So motivated, he committed a criminal act, a minor desecration. A trial, a conviction, a fine. He's no demon.

dw

Danny
05-01-2009, 12:44 PM
...I would no sooner go around tearing flowers from a grave let alone a flag that the veteran fought under.

Yet if you were caught pulling a flower from a grave you neither would be a demon, merely an [deletion - THP; language] like this "bishop."

Enough with the lynch mentality.

dw

sbl
05-01-2009, 12:47 PM
He's more in the "putz" catagory. Self inflicted.

billwatson2
05-01-2009, 01:14 PM
"wouldn't the stars and bars be as appropriate to mark a veterans grave?"

It's been considered and I'm sure it has been done somewhere, but the argument against it is, heard many times in similar situations to the one the folks in Alabama find themselves, is that the battle flag as a regimental flag is the soldier's flag, specially designed for use on the battlefield. The Stars and Bars is the national flag of the regime and is the flag that ought to be associated with the unpopular parts of that regime's agenda, including slavery.

The reason hate groups grabbed the battle flag and wrapped themselves in it is exactly the reason descendants of veterans want it used: It stands for duty and valor at the level of the fighting soldier. Part of the reason there is so much emotion boiling out on this one is because a great many of those with Confederate ancestors are and have been unhappy at the usurpation of the "duty and valor" flag for a racist agenda. It was deliberate, trying to transfer the blood and valor of the common soldier to the bigot's agenda. Every time something like this happens, those who know the flag and what it meant to the men in the regiments who fought under it kick themselves yet again for letting the hate groups usurp it and turn it into something it originally was not.

lincolnsguard
05-01-2009, 01:49 PM
Removing flags from a failed nation that no longer exists. What a concept.

Blair
05-01-2009, 02:19 PM
Of course if you remove enough of those thing from a failed nation that no longer exist... what would you and all these CW "reenactor's be doing?
What a concept?
"Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks". Forest Gump
Blair Taylor

Blair
05-01-2009, 02:41 PM
Danny,

Your assumption concerning the Flags was not only incorrect, but completely wrong. Is there anything with any real meaning left in your implied innuendos that is worthy of historical interest?

"Meanwhile what started as that battle flag went on 'after' the war to represent the lost cause, anti voters rights, anti-civil rights. And it was seen in the hands or more than a few lynch mobs. It got away from the good people."

It surly can't be this bit of post war tripe. This has nothing to do with the Civil War, those who fought in it, and those that wish to reenact it.
What else do you have?
Blair Taylor

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Of course if you remove enough of those thing from a failed nation that no longer exist... what would you and all these CW "reenactor's be doing?
What a concept?
"Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks". Forest Gump
Blair Taylor


If it weren't for the Confederate Battleflag and us , a "failed nation", the 187 th PV would have to disband . They wouldn't have anybody to shot at.

Danny
05-01-2009, 04:05 PM
...Your assumption concerning the Flags was not only incorrect, but completely wrong...It surly can't be this bit of post war tripe. This has nothing to do with the Civil War, those who fought in it, and those that wish to reenact it...Blair Taylor

Blair -

Do I get to choose between Incorrect or completely wrong? ;) .

Anyway, in a way you are exactly on point: What the confederate battle flag became after the war, all that negative stuff that you know some people think about it (not me, I was just listing it) has nothing to do with the Civil War or those who fought in it.*

That battle flag got out of the hands of the good people who understand why and when it was created, and for whom it truly honors.

To you and I it does not represent the negative post-war stuff but it's too late to fix that, and ridiculous to deny it. It's now part of our Country's culture.

There are honorable alternatives to using the battle flag to mark graves. As mentioned before, there's no taint on the stars and bars, the Confederate National flag, like the one draped over Jackson's coffin (thanks for that tidbit, Ross). And a crossed U.S. / Confederate battle flag symbol doesn't have the taint either. Either of those would stand in stead of the battle flag and bear the full gravitas of honor.

There's just nothing to be gained by making the "bishop" out to be anything more than an ass who committed a minor desecration in the spirit of civil disobedience. He apparently is doing a fine job of making a fool of himself.

Dan Wykes

* it is of interest to reenactors - we've been discussing this for several days

Old Cremona
05-01-2009, 05:41 PM
'Course, the Stars and Stripes has gotten into the hands of some of those same bad folks that Danny keeps mentioning, but people don't automatically associate them with our national emblem. The Confederate battle flag has gotten a bad rep because of people with an agenda, some of them frequent pot stir-ers on this very forum!

billwatson2
05-01-2009, 06:32 PM
"There's just nothing to be gained by making the "bishop" out to be anything more than an ass who committed a minor desecration in the spirit of civil disobedience. He apparently is doing a fine job of making a fool of himself."


When I lived down there the phrase I heard and asked about, that covered this kind of thing, was "showing his ass:" ill behaved and consciously defiant, deliberately flaunting his misbehavior.

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-01-2009, 06:54 PM
I’m not sure what we have to do to convince people that we will never compromise the Confederate soldier’s Battleflag, not for the First National, not crossed with the US flag, or for any other flag or configuration of flags.

Ross L. Lamoreaux
05-01-2009, 07:04 PM
I’m not sure what we have to do to convince people that we will never compromise the Confederate soldier’s Battleflag, not for the First National, not crossed with the US flag, or for any other flag or configuration of flags.
I truly get your point and rationale with that statement, as I once was considered a "firebrand" for showing that same enthusiasm. Once I started to educate myself about what truly made the south and its soldiers great, I realized that all of the flags shared the same great significance and importance, yet one seems to excite the uneducated public (and some so-called educated folk as well). Of course thats the battleflag that riles those folks up. To me, any of the national flags are just as important, just as significant, and just as honouring as the other. I can't speak for the boys of 61-65, but I'd be willing to state that they'd be proud of any of 'em and that folks care enough to care about them. I have and do fly the first national with absolutely no repercutions in a mixed neighborhood, and in fact its been asked about by several folks who didn't know what it was and they were met with an education about all of them, so its a great opportunity to use the others when you have the chance.

Blair
05-01-2009, 07:17 PM
Danny,

You had the chance to alter the mis information you were spewing. You choose not to. You gave up you ability to choose when you continued to perpetuate this mis information.:)
Blair Taylor

Pvt Schnapps
05-01-2009, 07:35 PM
I truly get your point and rationale with that statement, as I once was considered a "firebrand" for showing that same enthusiasm. Once I started to educate myself about what truly made the south and its soldiers great, I realized that all of the flags shared the same great significance and importance, yet one seems to excite the uneducated public (and some so-called educated folk as well). Of course thats the battleflag that riles those folks up. To me, any of the national flags are just as important, just as significant, and just as honouring as the other. I can't speak for the boys of 61-65, but I'd be willing to state that they'd be proud of any of 'em and that folks care enough to care about them. I have and do fly the first national with absolutely no repercutions in a mixed neighborhood, and in fact its been asked about by several folks who didn't know what it was and they were met with an education about all of them, so its a great opportunity to use the others when you have the chance.

That's an excellent point, if you don't mind me saying so. People can choose which flag to honor the southern soldier with. What does more honor -- a flag that recognizes their sacrifice or one that tries to do that, but evokes other, more negative feelings as well? If the commemoration is more about them and their historic service than us and a contemporary defiance, then the national flag would seem to be a better choice.

FloridaConfederate
05-01-2009, 08:41 PM
Confederate Memorial Day was over. Take em up.

There is no reason to fly a CS flag over a CS soldier grave 365 - 24/7. Besides the fact they get ratty, faded and strewn about; and a CSA Iron Cross or Headstone is proper grave identification save for ceremonial and memorial occurences.....

These soldiers by the majority and overwhelmingly assimilated back into being good citizens of this country and from their actions post-war were reconciled brother to brother as Americans. Their leaders, many modern Confederate iconic figures, urged this very course and led by example back into the Nation.

If you were able to query them today I wonder how many would wish to even be memorialized with a CS flag ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

gwagner
05-01-2009, 09:12 PM
Census Records

GEORGE WASHINGTON SEXTON:
Burial: Unknown, Cool Spring Primitive Baptist Church Cemetery, Crenshaw Co., AL (Source: Sarah Kelley, Grave Marker.)
Census: 1900 Rocky Mount District
Military service: May 5, 1862, Enlisted at Ft. Deposit, Alabama Private Co. I, 60th AL Regiment, paroled April 1865 at Appomattox.
Nationality: Self-Proclaimed Confederate
Occupation: Farmer

From his headstone:

G W SEXTON 5 Feb 1842 - 6 Aug 1921 (Back of Stone): Confederate soldier parolled
at Appomattox Court House April 10, 1865 under Capt Zeigler Co I
60th Ala REgt. Gracey Brigade


Interview in the Luverne Journal - 1923

"George was quite a character. He lived to be rather old for his time and wouldn't ride in autos. He always rode his white horse, and carried his pistol. George did not take the oath of allegience to the union and considered himself to be a Confederate to the end."

I suspect he would be proud of that flag on his grave.

Side note....several of his family members were killed in a auto accident when a bridge collapsed. It was supposedly the first car in Crenshaw County. Hence, he wouldn't get in one.

billwatson2
05-02-2009, 07:28 AM
"Confederate soldier parolled
at Appomattox Court House April 10, 1865 under Capt Zeigler Co I"

It is impressive how many were proud that they served as long as called upon to do so. An Appomattox parole means he did his duty to the utter end. And it's on his gravestone. Interesting to really wrap your mind around that and consider its implications.

Danny
05-02-2009, 09:42 AM
Danny,

You had the chance to alter the mis information you were spewing. You choose not to. You gave up you ability to choose when you continued to perpetuate this mis information.:)
Blair Taylor

Blair -

Once again, it's not me or you that has a problem with the Confederate battle flag. it's other people do have bad feelings about it - the "Bishop" for one, and a whole lot of other folks.


How is that misinformation?

Are you actually going to pretend that there's no issues with the Confederate battle flag at all? The issue can't even be discussed?

You are a hard man, sir.

Dan Wykes

Blair
05-02-2009, 10:24 AM
There is most defiantly and issue with Confederate Flag. Most specifically the Battle Flag. And to a lesser degree the second and third Nationals flags because they use the Battle Flag in the canton.
I might add it was misinformation about the Battle Flag's purpose and it's intended use that has lead to it's current symbol of Hate.
Perpetrating or perpetuating misinformation only serves to add to the hate, not fix or render a cure. Education will do all that. A few moments with a book would have served you well.
As for the Councilman, an education might have served him better. We will just have to wait and see.
I quite honestly hope they hit him with the maximum punishment. Maybe more people will start to educate themselves.
Blair Taylor

MMurphy
05-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Okay so let me get this straight, (and if I am wrong, I hope somebody will correct me)...

First, He's a "City Councilman"...

Then...somewhere during all of this, he is now a "Reverend"...
And then somehow, someway, he is now a "Bishop"...

Ummm...of what church?
And of what faith/practice/following?




If this is so, then why does this come up after all of the hullaballoo?...

I know that in Las Vegas, for 150 bucks you can be licensed and ordained as a minister, but not sure about Alabama...

sbl
05-03-2009, 05:18 PM
A quick search on Auburn and Arthur L. Dowdell shows that ward 1 was created to insure that the black population of Auburn had representation. He was elected to the position.

The search also turns up some ugly comments on his titles of Reverend and Bishop as if his titles are less than legitimate than any other clergy.

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-03-2009, 05:20 PM
Okay so let me get this straight, (and if I am wrong, I hope somebody will correct me)...

First, He's a "City Councilman"...

Then...somewhere during all of this, he is now a "Reverend"...
And then somehow, someway, he is now a "Bishop"...

Ummm...of what church?
And of what faith/practice/following?




If this is so, then why does this come up after all of the hullaballoo?...

I know that in Las Vegas, for 150 bucks you can be licensed and ordained as a minister, but not sure about Alabama...


The original April 23 new article refers to him as "Auburn Councilman."


His own e mail address uses the title "bishopdowdell" . I have no idea how it is used, or how it was obtained

bob 125th nysvi
05-03-2009, 08:54 PM
but the guy was flat out wrong to remove the flags. They are NOT on city property. They were NOT put there using government money. Therefore a city councilman has no right to get involved.

That being said the jerk isn't guilt of a crime. Maybe a misdemeanor at worst.

The flags are not an official part of the graves therefore it isn't grave "desecration" .

However as long as Alabama and it's voters decide that there should be a day honoring CSA veterans then flying ANY CSA Flag over a CSA veteran grave isn't ANY his business.

You can only hope he gets voted out of office. Which I'm willing to bet good money right now doesn't happen.

And Danny as usual you are out of bounds with your logic. Under your logic any group that was ever oppressed by any other group has the right to do whatever it pleases to make sure everybody never forgets that they were oppressed. The problem is that there hasn't EVER been a group that wasn't oppressed by someone else and there isn't a group that HASN'T not oppressed someone else.

If these 'my great grandfathers were enslaved by your grandfathers' people want to be taken seriously by me, I want to see them protesting outside the embassies of virtually every African nation because it was other AFRICANS who sold their ancestors into slavey and had been doing so for 2000 years before Columbus 'discovered' America.

So we can all grow up and learn from our ancestors mistakes and move on. Or some people can wallow in 100 year old 'injustices' as an excuse for every ill in their lives and stay stuck in a rut.

tompritchett
05-03-2009, 09:18 PM
And Danny as usual you are out of bounds with your logic. Under your logic any group that was ever oppressed by any other group has the right to do whatever it pleases to make sure everybody never forgets that they were oppressed. The problem is that there hasn't EVER been a group that wasn't oppressed by someone else and there isn't a group that HASN'T not oppressed someone else.

If these 'my great grandfathers were enslaved by your grandfathers' people want to be taken seriously by me, I want to see them protesting outside the embassies of virtually every African nation because it was other AFRICANS who sold their ancestors into slavey and had been doing so for 2000 years before Columbus 'discovered' America.

In Danny's defense, IMHO, it is not the slavery issue that makes the battle flag such a sore sight for some Americans but rather the very recent history of its being the banner of the fight against the Civil Rights reforms (violent and non-violent) as well as the rallying flag for just about every racist and White Supremacy group in the U.S. For some, it is not about history but about personal memories and experience. Unfortunately, because of its disgraceful usage in the 50's and 60's, the battle flag will remain a sore reminder of a more recent past - at least until all those who lived through those time and experienced first-hand the hate behind the usage have died of natural causes. For them, a battle flag can be just as offensive as a swastika is to a European Jew.

However, I do believe that there are indeed times where displays of the flag are appropriate and this was one of them.

sbl
05-03-2009, 09:25 PM
From another quick search...

http://www.americantowns.com/al/auburn

RACE

One Race Percent in Auburn, AL
At the time of the last census survey, the number of people of one race in Auburn, AL was 42,535.

White Population in Auburn, AL
The estimated White population in the Auburn community is 33,553, which is 78.1 percent of the total population (The U.S. average is 75.10%).

Black Population in Auburn, Alabama
The estimated Black/African American population is 7,217, which is 16.8 percent of the total population in town (The U.S. average is 12.30%)......"

It was a stupid crime but not a threat.

Spinster
05-03-2009, 11:54 PM
And, recent commentary from the gentleman who is likely to be the first black governor of Alabama, by 2010, Congressman Artur Davis. Now, I live in one of those districts intentionally gerrymandered to make a majority black congressional district. Mr. Davis has been my congressman for four terms now. He shows this sort of common sense and inclusiveness on a regular basis.

Opelika-Auburn News
Brittany Whitley
Staff Writer
Published: April 25, 2009

U.S. Rep. Artur Davis, D-Birmingham, said Saturday he did not condone Auburn Councilman Arthur L. Dowdell removing Confederate flags from the graves in Pine Hill Cemetery. The flags were placed on the graves as part of today’s Confederate Memorial Day observance.

Davis, a Harvard-educated Montgomery native, was visiting Auburn as part of his campaign for governor.

“I would have a different approach and a different opinion than what he did,” Davis said. “I respect all cemeteries and people have a right to honor the dead in the way that they want.”

Dowdell, who touched off a major controversy Thursday when he removed some of the flags, said Saturday that he didn’t need anyone from out of town telling him what to do.
“I don’t care whether a congressman came to town. I don’t vote for him,” he said.

Dowdell also backed off his earlier statement that he would go to the cemetery Monday and remove the remainder of the flags. He said Saturday that he would not go to the cemetery Monday.

Meanwhile, a New Jersey-based, white supremacist radio host said he faxed a letter to the Auburn Police Division Saturday saying that he is considering bringing the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis, skinheads and other groups to Auburn to protest Dowdell’s action.










Davis, who had a campaign stop at the Olde Auburn Ale House, said graves are deeded private property, and Dowdell did not have the right to take the flags.

“We have to live with each other no matter what our differences and no matter what our history. We’re simultaneously the capital of the civil rights movement and the capital of the Confederacy,” he said. “Neither one of those parts of our past is going to disappear, and whoever is governor of this state has a moral obligation to respect all Alabamians.”

Davis said he understands the multiple meanings associated with the flag.

“There are undoubtedly people who are offended by the Confederate flag, and they every right to be. And there are undoubtedly people who venerate the Confederate flag and honor it, and they have every right to do that, too,” he said. “The question is are there things we have in common?
“The fact that my ancestors were on one side of the Civil War and some of my constituents’ ancestors were on the other side doesn’t mean we can’t work together and find a common ground.”

Dowdell said he did not regret taking the flags. He said he planned to introduce a resolution to the Auburn City Council to make all cemetery rules in the city uniform.
Auburn Assistant Police Chief Tommy Dawson said Saturday he had not seen the fax from white supremacist Hal Turner, but he said he would do everything possible to protect Auburn citizens if a march occurs.
“If somebody comes to demonstrate they would have to have a parade permit,” he said. “We would certainly try to maintain the peace and safety of our citizens.”
In his letter, Turner said he had staged numerous marches and that they cost local local governments tens of thousands of dollars in law enforcement and other expenses.
The letter demands that Dowdell replace the flags and that the city file criminal charges against him.

28thNY
05-04-2009, 09:02 AM
Confederate Memorial Day was over. Take em up.

There is no reason to fly a CS flag over a CS soldier grave 365 - 24/7. Besides the fact they get ratty, faded and strewn about; and a CSA Iron Cross or Headstone is proper grave identification save for ceremonial and memorial occurences.....

These soldiers by the majority and overwhelmingly assimilated back into being good citizens of this country and from their actions post-war were reconciled brother to brother as Americans. Their leaders, many modern Confederate iconic figures, urged this very course and led by example back into the Nation.

If you were able to query them today I wonder how many would wish to even be memorialized with a CS flag ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Are you serious?

Based on that logic, the graves of all fallen soldiers should have their flags removed the day after memoral day or remembrance day. What should be so special about the Confederate veterans that their flags should be removed?

These soldiers were all good citizens to the United States after the war, but do you really think for one second that, having spent four years fighting for their flag, state and country, they would suddenly say "ok, enough of that flag, stars and stripes only from now on"...

Look around you when you go out of your house at the number of people who, despite being second or third generation US citizens, still fly the Irish, Italian, German ...etc... flag and see if you can still say that you think these veterans would not want their flag flying over their final resting place.

The 5th Virginia visited Niagara Falls in 1896 to return the captured battle flag of the regiment with which I reenact, and they were there in Confederate uniforms... 31 years after the Confederacy ceased to exist... If they felt that passion for the uniform after that time, I doubt that would change prior to the time that the last of them died.

FloridaConfederate
05-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Are you serious?

Yes I are Serious.

Based on that logic, the graves of all fallen soldiers should have their flags removed the day after memoral day or remembrance day. What should be so special about the Confederate veterans that their flags should be removed?

The National flag I believe has standards to which its continuous outdoor display is acceptable ? The Confederacy is a non-existent, failed nation. As such there is no reason to fly its ensign save for ceremonial and/or memorial purposes. I am all for CS Memorial Day and other events festooning CS soldier graves with flags. Done it myself many times. A CS Iron Cross is the proper maker for a CS grave and a CS headstone if KIA.

These soldiers were all good citizens to the United States after the war, but do you really think for one second that, having spent four years fighting for their flag, state and country, they would suddenly say "ok, enough of that flag, stars and stripes only from now on"...

Yes I do in droves, check out post war the words and actions of NB Forrest, RE Lee , JE Johnston, Longstreet, Pickett, Early the list goes on and on. These men, many of who went on to serve in civil US elected capacity, did not go to their graves under a CS flag, they went under a US Flag for the US military service. I think honoring their service to state and to the CS on the appropriate memorial holidays and other ceremonies is adequate for flag display (and marker / IC other times). I think it is naive to assume those 4 years of the Late Unpleasantness are every CS vets' defining swan song.

Look around you when you go out of your house at the number of people who, despite being second or third generation US citizens, still fly the Irish, Italian, German ...etc... flag and see if you can still say that you think these veterans would not want their flag flying over their final resting place.

No I don't see it. The US military cemeteries don't reflect this either ??? An Italian American boy from Brooklyn who gives his life in IRQ...you reckon he wants to be buried under a US or Italy flag?

The 5th Virginia visited Niagara Falls in 1896 to return the captured battle flag of the regiment with which I reenact, and they were there in Confederate uniforms... 31 years after the Confederacy ceased to exist... If they felt that passion for the uniform after that time, I doubt that would change prior to the time that the last of them died.

Great story ! However equating these vets showing up in CS kit to return a captured US flag some 31 years later to their undying devotion to the CSA being so much we can correctly assume their desire is to be memorialized for those 4 years in aeternia... might be a bit of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h, no ?




Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Blair
05-04-2009, 10:39 AM
Simon,

Do you have access to photos of the flag being returned? Look at it closely if you do. I would bet the uniforms warn by those members of the 5th VA are not Confederate uniforms but the uniforms of a Post War Confederate Veterans Organization. 31 years after the Confederacy ceased to exist it was still illegal for ex Confederates to wear or display anything C S form the War. You can be sure if any of those guys in the 5th VA had any of the uniform and/or equipment still around, it was hidden away.
Kind of makes you wonder what "reconstruction" was all about.
Blair Taylor

28thNY
05-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Wow... I am sorry, but I find that highly offensive.

I can not even be bothered arguing with you.

28thNY
05-04-2009, 11:20 AM
Simon,

Do you have access to photos of the flag being returned? Look at it closely if you do. I would bet the uniforms warn by those members of the 5th VA are not Confederate uniforms but the uniforms of a Post War Confederate Veterans Organization. 31 years after the Confederacy ceased to exist it was still illegal for ex Confederates to wear or display anything C S form the War. You can be sure if any of those guys in the 5th VA had any of the uniform and/or equipment still around, it was hidden away.
Kind of makes you wonder what "reconstruction" was all about.
Blair Taylor

Hi Blair,

Based on the reports in several newspapers at the time, the officer who returned the flag was wearing the uniform of a full Confederate Major. However, I have no close up pictures to confirm whether that was the case or if it was, as you suggested, the uniform of the Confederate Veterans Organisation.

Whatever, I'm done with this one. I took the bait but I have better things to do with my time than argue online. If some clown in Alabama wants to take down the flags based on some garbage political correctness, let them go right ahead.

-Simon.

Pvt Schnapps
05-04-2009, 01:47 PM
Having remembered that Arlington National Cemetery has certain rules about flags and flowers on graves, I thought I'd look it up and share.

These come from http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org/funeral_information/guide.afterneed.html#floral

Of course, none of this authorizes random acts of grave policing, but they do offer some context to Mr. Rideout's comments. Note especially the rule regarding flags.




Floral Tributes at Gravesites

Fresh cut flowers may be placed on graves at any time.

Artificial flowers may be placed on graves October 10th through April 15th.

Planting of flowers, shrubs, etc. is prohibited.

Potted plants are permitted during the period 10 days before and 10 days after Easter.

Christmas wreaths are permitted during the Christmas season.

Floral items will be removed from the graves as soon as they become faded and unsightly.

Statues, vigil lights, flags, etc. and any type of commemorative items are not permitted on graves except for flags placed on the graves by the government.

Floral items and other types of decorations are not to be secured to the headstone or marker.

There will be a general cleanup of all floral items on graves 10 days after each holiday-Easter, Memorial Day, and Veterans Day.

FloridaConfederate
05-04-2009, 04:40 PM
SOLDIERS:

By an agreement made between Liet.-Gen. Taylor, commanding the Department of Alabama. Mississippi, and East Louisiana, and Major-Gen. Canby, commanding United States forces, the troops of this department have been surrendered.

I do not think it proper or necessary at this time to refer to causes which have reduced us to this extremity; nor is it now a matter of material consequence to us how such results were brought about. That we are BEATEN is a self-evident fact, and any further resistence on our part would justly be regarded as the very height of folly and rashness.

The armies of Generals LEE and JOHNSON having surrendered. you are the last of all the troops of the Confederate States Army east of the Mississippi River to lay down your arms.

The Cause for which you have so long and so manfully struggled, and for which you have braved dangers, endured privations, and sufferings, and made so many sacrifices, is today hopeless. The government which we sought to establish and perpetuate, is at an end. Reason dictates and humanity demands that no more blood be shed. Fully realizing and feeling that such is the case, it is your duty amd mine to lay down our arms -- submit to the “powers that be” -- and to aid in restoring peace and establishing law and order throughout the land.

The terms upon which you were surrendered are favorable, and should be satisfactory and acceptable to all. They manifest a spirit of magnanimity and liberality, on the part of the Federal authorities, which should be met, on our part, by a faithful compliance with all the stipulations and conditions therein expressed. As your Commander, I sincerely hope that every officer and soldier of my command will cheerfully obey the orders given, and carry out in good faith all the terms of the cartel.

Those who neglect the terms and refuse to be paroled, may assuredly expect, when arrested, to be sent North and imprisoned. Let those who are absent from their commands, from whatever cause, report at once to this place, or to Jackson, Miss.; or, if too remote from either, to the nearest United States post or garrison, for parole.

Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.

The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone.

In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms.

I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General

Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps

Gainesville, Alabama

May 9, 1865

bob 125th nysvi
05-04-2009, 05:13 PM
Meanwhile, a New Jersey-based, white supremacist radio host said he faxed a letter to the Auburn Police Division Saturday saying that he is considering bringing the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis, skinheads and other groups to Auburn to protest Dowdell’s action.

meets the road in the "honoring our ancestors" argument. In order to maintain creditability here everybody who says the flag is NOT racist needs to react NOW.

You need to publicly and loudly says NO to these yahoos. Tell them to get lost, stay home, jump in a creek whatever. And if they DO come to town YOU need to launch a counter protest.

These guys have pushed their hate agenda under your flag for too long. Seize it back NOW or be prepared to be lumped in with them for eternity.

FloridaConfederate
05-04-2009, 05:59 PM
I have no more association, culpability or obligation to take issue with a New Jersey white supremacist talk radio dooshbag then a worker in a Dr. Martens factory.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Spinster
05-04-2009, 06:16 PM
Mister Sandusky,

Its a really, really sad thing, but in over half a century of living down here, I've discovered that most of the flag waving, sheet wearing, shaved-head, tatooed troublemakers tend to come from Somewhere Else. Not our people and we can't control them.

Closest I've ever been to being in a bar fight in my life was when one of the members of the Palmetto took grave issue with some loud mouthed, obnoxious, racially offensive 'rebels' from Pennsylvania. Hoop skirts do not move quickly when men start coming over the tables.....

sbl
05-04-2009, 06:50 PM
Mister Sandusky,

Its a really, really sad thing, but in over half a century of living down here, I've discovered that most of the flag waving, sheet wearing, shaved-head, tatooed troublemakers tend to come from Somewhere Else. Not our people and we can't control them. ......." [/I]

I usually agree with Bob. In this case the suggestion to take back the Confederate flag begs the question of why don't we all take back the US flag from commercialism and groups that try to divide Americans.

Just sayin'.

28thNY
05-04-2009, 08:18 PM
SOLDIERS:

By an agreement made between Liet.-Gen. Taylor, commanding the Department of Alabama. Mississippi, and East Louisiana, and Major-Gen. Canby, commanding United States forces, the troops of this department have been surrendered.

I do not think it proper or necessary at this time to refer to causes which have reduced us to this extremity; nor is it now a matter of material consequence to us how such results were brought about. That we are BEATEN is a self-evident fact, and any further resistence on our part would justly be regarded as the very height of folly and rashness.

The armies of Generals LEE and JOHNSON having surrendered. you are the last of all the troops of the Confederate States Army east of the Mississippi River to lay down your arms.

The Cause for which you have so long and so manfully struggled, and for which you have braved dangers, endured privations, and sufferings, and made so many sacrifices, is today hopeless. The government which we sought to establish and perpetuate, is at an end. Reason dictates and humanity demands that no more blood be shed. Fully realizing and feeling that such is the case, it is your duty amd mine to lay down our arms -- submit to the “powers that be” -- and to aid in restoring peace and establishing law and order throughout the land.

The terms upon which you were surrendered are favorable, and should be satisfactory and acceptable to all. They manifest a spirit of magnanimity and liberality, on the part of the Federal authorities, which should be met, on our part, by a faithful compliance with all the stipulations and conditions therein expressed. As your Commander, I sincerely hope that every officer and soldier of my command will cheerfully obey the orders given, and carry out in good faith all the terms of the cartel.

Those who neglect the terms and refuse to be paroled, may assuredly expect, when arrested, to be sent North and imprisoned. Let those who are absent from their commands, from whatever cause, report at once to this place, or to Jackson, Miss.; or, if too remote from either, to the nearest United States post or garrison, for parole.

Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.

The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone.

In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms.

I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General

Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps

Gainesville, Alabama

May 9, 1865

Fair play... But, one last question...

If the United States of America was to be invaded, conquered and destroyed by a foreign power, what flag would YOU want to hang over YOUR grave? :)

-Simon.

bob 125th nysvi
05-04-2009, 09:35 PM
Mister Sandusky,

Its a really, really sad thing, but in over half a century of living down here, I've discovered that most of the flag waving, sheet wearing, shaved-head, tatooed troublemakers tend to come from Somewhere Else. Not our people and we can't control them.

Closest I've ever been to being in a bar fight in my life was when one of the members of the Palmetto took grave issue with some loud mouthed, obnoxious, racially offensive 'rebels' from Pennsylvania. Hoop skirts do not move quickly when men start coming over the tables.....

to control them I'm asking you to publicly denounce them. Not on this board but in the papers of the town in question.

Doesn't matter where they come from, it is irrelevantly where they come from.

They grabbed your symbol.

They soil it with their hate, they have set the definition and nobody is going to stop them but the supporters of the flag.

You have two choices, take back what is yours, imbue it with the meaning you want it to have or by your silence let others define it and you.

But if you sit back and let others define you then don't come asking for support or understanding when you aren't willing to fight to give the flag the definition you want it to have.

Spinster
05-04-2009, 09:43 PM
Mistah Sandusky,

I believe the last time we fought to keep folks from Somewhere Else from messing in our lives down here, many unfortunate things happened.

As for the particular town in question, its a university town full of strapping young men and women with a future in agriculture. They are well versed in sweeping out manure.

bob 125th nysvi
05-04-2009, 09:48 PM
I usually agree with Bob. In this case the suggestion to take back the Confederate flag begs the question of why don't we all take back the US flag from commercialism and groups that try to divide Americans.

Just sayin'.

the flag(s) has been commercialized and most of the commercialism is benign, even fun.

And personally I don't have a problem if it is on a t-shirt, a bumper sticker or flying over a NASCAR race. Heck I think the CSA flag SHOULD be flying over the graves of the CSA veterans.

A symbol is what we make it out to be. In America we are proud of our flag and what has been accomplished under it. We also recognize (or try to) the mistakes that were made under it.

And if there was a hate group in my town or coming to my town and if they flew an American flag (and they will when they show up to support the CSA flag) in my town I'd be the first guy on the opposite street corner telling anybody who'd listen (and I have a bellowing voice) that those people are sullying my flag by flying it. I won't let hate groups define my flag.

And that is what I am asking the CSA flag supporters to do, don't let those people sully their flag.

Supporters of the flag have, as I see it, two choices: (1) denounce those loudly and publicly who would steal the flag for their own purposes or (2) allow the media to lump them in with the hate mongers.

Silence only breeds the impression of consent or agreement.

And no I don't mean by me. I actually never vote party line but always ask questions. I know what the supports of the flag on this board mean by honoring their ancestors. But then they aren't out to convince me and they don't need to convince me.

But there are a lot of people who do need to be educated and convinced.

bob 125th nysvi
05-04-2009, 09:52 PM
Mistah Sandusky,

I believe the last time we fought to keep folks from Somewhere Else from messing in our lives down here, many unfortunate things happened.

As for the particular town in question, its a university town full of strapping young men and women with a future in agriculture. They are well versed in sweeping out manure.

will they? Or maybe do they agree with the councilman? College students have a very nasty habit of surprising their elders when it comes to political opinions.

It is your fight to win or lose not mine.

Make your choices and live with the consequences.

sbl
05-04-2009, 10:00 PM
Is this the issue of "outside agitators," the term from the 1960s I remember for the civil right's workers? Southerners must have issues with the idea that someone needs to come down and straighten them out.

Blair
05-04-2009, 10:16 PM
It goes back a lot farther than the 1960's.The original term was Political Appointees/Carpet baggers. But the Idea was the same.
Blair Taylor

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-05-2009, 03:52 AM
meets the road in the "honoring our ancestors" argument. In order to maintain creditability here everybody who says the flag is NOT racist needs to react NOW.

You need to publicly and loudly says NO to these yahoos. Tell them to get lost, stay home, jump in a creek whatever. And if they DO come to town YOU need to launch a counter protest.

These guys have pushed their hate agenda under your flag for too long. Seize it back NOW or be prepared to be lumped in with them for eternity.

I am just one voice, but I think I speak for quite a few when I say without reservation to these kinds of people, “get lost, stay home, jump in a creek,” etc.


Elliott Cummings
Adjutant
Maryland Division
Sons of Confederate Veterans

sbl
05-05-2009, 06:21 AM
Whether to rip you off or "enlighten" I can understand the reluctance to have unrequested outside help.

Spinster
05-05-2009, 08:13 AM
Whether to rip you off or "enlighten" I can understand the reluctance to have unrequested outside help.

Give that Glousterman a cee-gar!:p

tompritchett
05-05-2009, 08:48 AM
I'm asking you to publicly denounce them. Not on this board but in the papers of the town in question.

Now that is one of the best suggestions that I have seen come out of this discussion.

sbl
05-05-2009, 08:50 AM
Tip O'Neil was right about politics being local.

Danny
05-11-2009, 01:17 PM
I usually agree with Bob. In this case the suggestion to take back the Confederate flag begs the question of why don't we all take back the US flag from commercialism and groups that try to divide Americans.
Just sayin'.

The U.S. has a battle flag, Scott?

dw

Danny
05-11-2009, 01:23 PM
Is this the issue of "outside agitators," the term from the 1960s I remember for the civil right's workers? Southerners must have issues with the idea that someone needs to come down and straighten them out.

...or from Antebellum times. Northerners had issues with "outside agitators" from the South acting on legislation that required Northerners to assist slave-catchers. That bit of bad legislation was intended to straighten them Northerners out, South couldn't just leave folks alone.

What goes around comes around.

dw

sbl
05-11-2009, 03:21 PM
Pardon me for trying to be "nice."

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=813053&t=w

Gregg Hensley
05-11-2009, 08:13 PM
I'm a member of the SCV and as such receive SCV correspondence. Here's a communique for your reading displeasure. Make of it what you will...

Gregg Hensley
22nd NC, Co K
Camp #379 SCV


8 May 2009
Compatriots,
I am sure that by now you have all heard of the Heritage Violation that happened on the 23rd of April at Pine Hill Cemetery located in Auburn, Alabama. On this day, Auburn City Councilman Arthur Dowdell entered the cemetery and stole four Confederate "Memorial" flags (reportedly) from the graves of Confederate Veterans. These flags had been placed by the Semmes Chapter of the UDC in Auburn in preparation for their upcoming Memorial service the following Sunday. This act of lawlessness was witnessed by a local historian and UDC member Mrs. Mary Norman. There were many reports of this incident in the local news and across the AP.
The City Council in Auburn held their regular meeting on Tuesday the 5th of May at 7pm. The Army of Tennessee and Alabama Division were very well represented at this council meeting. Present were myself, AoT Commander Kelly Barrow, AoT Councilman and Division 1st Lt. Commander Tom Strain, SEC Brigade Commander Larry Warren, SWC Brigade Commander Joe Clark, NWC Brigade Commander Allan Koester, Past Division Commanders Wilson and Simmons, Tallassee Camp Commander Randall Hughey, Auburn Camp Commander Jerry Purcel, Florida Division 1st Lt Commander Bob Hurst and forty plus fellow SCV members. The evening began with the opening of the meeting room, where we occupied the front row and most of the center section of the seating.
The Mayor then made a statement. In it he said: "Let me be clear, the issue here is not about race, the symbolism of the flag, or the City's cemetery policies; it is about the removal of private property from a private grave." He further stated "I want to assure the Daughter's that I will not support any Council action limiting anyone's right to honor their loved ones by placing flags on a grave."
They then altered the agenda to allow them to bring forward a resolution concerning Dowdell's actions.
Councilman Bob Norman issued the following statement and resolution:
"Statement: By his own admission, Councilman Arthur Dowdell entered Pine Hill Cemetery on April 23rd and removed confederate flags from private burial plots. He was quoted as saying "This will never happen again as long as I'm on the city council."
This is a passionate issue. There is no doubt that Mr. Dowdell is offended by the battle flag of the confederacy, and the appropriateness of its use is open to debate. The way councilman Dowdell chose to enter the debate is inappropriate and beneath the office of city councilman. His actions were inexcusable and have done nothing to help people on either side of this issue find common ground. They have stirred up old hatreds and created embarrassment and controversy for the city he represents.
The Bottom line is that those graves are private property, the placing of flags as memorials are expressions of free speech and Mr. Dowdell had no right to remove them. The fact that Mr. Dowdell invoked his position as a city councilman demands that the city council speak to the issue. Therefore the following is offered as a resolution by the Auburn city council:
Whereas, by his own admission, Councilman Arthur Dowdell entered Pine Hill Cemetery on April 23rd and removed confederate flags from private burial plots; and
Whereas, Councilman Dowdell invoked his position as a city councilman by saying "This will never happen again as long as I'm on the city council;" and
Whereas, the foregoing action was inappropriate and beneath the office of a city councilman;
NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Auburn City Council condemns the actions taken by the Councilman Dowdell, and urges him to make a public apology to the citizens of Auburn, and to pledge that henceforth he will respect the private property and free speech rights of all citizens."
This Resolution passed with one vote against by Dowdell.
The Council then opened the floor for comment from Auburn citizens. A slight majority of these were those brought in by Dowdell, and they were in favor of him. There were also a number of citizens who took strong exception to his actions. The floor was then opened for speakers from outside Auburn to speak. Randall Hughey was the first on our desired lineup, and he did an excellent job. Auburn Camp Commander Jerry Purcel (who lives outside the city limits) was next and did a fine job as well. The selection was not by sign up, but by recognition from the Mayor. Good points were made by a number of speakers and those opposed to Dowdell were the vast majority of those given.
When it became evident that almost everyone present would be coming up to the microphone, it was decided that the public comments would be saved until the end of the meeting.
The regular business of the Council was covered in a very few minutes and we returned to public comment. Just over half of the comments were given in this second session. To the council's credit they patiently listened to the comments being made and gave everyone a chance to speak.
After the public comments session, Dowdell gave his statement in which he publicly apologized to the UDC and the SCV. He excused his actions due to "ignorancy" on his part, and noted that he contacted the City Manager and Mayor about the flags and that they did not know anything about them. He said the Mayor did know there was a program planned for Sunday.
Dowdell's claims of ignorance appeared to be very well founded, though I will certainly not attest to his sense of honesty. The issue here though is that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for lawless behavior.
As a closing comment, Councilman Robin Kelley was visibly shaken when he stated that Dowdell "Broke the law, and desecrated graves, end of discussion" in the removal of the flags. He further chastised Dowdell for not calling him, since it was in his ward. He explained that he lived near the cemetery and knew exactly what the flags were for. Kelley stated that Dowdell would be highly unappreciative of his taking action in Dowdell's ward without first informing Dowdell. Kelley then called for the meeting to adjourn.
In the end what we got was:
1. A statement by the Mayor that Dowdell removed private property from private grave plots.
2. A statement by the Mayor that he "will not supp ort any Council action limiting anyone's right to honor their loved ones by placing flags on a grave."
3. A statement by Councilman Bob Norman and the city council that Dowdell removed (stole) private property and did so as a city councilman.
4. A Resolution that the City Council condemned the actions taken by Dowdell and urged him to make an apology.
5. An apology from Dowdell to the UDC and the SCV.
6. A statement from Councilman Kelly that Dowdell "Broke the law, and desecrated graves, end of discussion".
At this point Dowdell appears as he is, an ignorant self righteous and self serving thug who took the law into his own hands, and has been thoroughly chastised by us and the City Council.
Compatriots, there is no way for the Alabama Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans to pursue a criminal suit against Councilman Dowdell because we do not have a witness willing to step forward to sign the arrest warrant and that no one has produced a list of the graves that were vandalized. We are unable to proceed any further in this case. It is also very clear that if we push this issue, we will possibly turn Councilman Dowdell into a martyr, and gentlemen this is exactly what he wants and needs at this point.
In closing, this is clearly a victory for the Army of Tennessee and Alabama Division. We went to Auburn, showed up in numbers, represented the Division and SCV in a very honorable fashion, and left knowing that the City Council and Mayor's office are clearly upset with Councilman Dowdell's actions. I would like to personally thank all of those involved who assisted the Alabama Division by following the Charge as set forth by General S.D. Lee to the Sons of Confederate Veterans in 1906.

Robert C. Reames
Alabama Division Commander
Sons of Confederate Veterans

flattop32355
05-11-2009, 10:10 PM
Dowdell got his 15 minutes of fame. Now he's a dead issue, and may or may not have lost himself a seat on the council.

Some folks see the Rebel Battle Flag as a positive statement. Others don't. Some don't give a rat's tee-heiny-boo one way or the other. Within reasonable limits, all three attitudes are equally well grounded.

Either of the first two attitudes mentioned above, take beyond moderation, can lead to trouble, intended or otherwise. Case in point noted.

Whichever side one takes on this issue, be aware that others can hold legitimate contradictory views. It ain't all one way or the other, or neither.

Not too many people, even Southerners, know what the heck the Confederate 1st, 2nd or 3rd National Colors looks like. Just about everyone knows what the battle flag looks like.

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-12-2009, 03:32 AM
I'm a member of the SCV and as such receive SCV correspondence. Here's a communique for your reading displeasure. Make of it what you will...

Gregg Hensley
22nd NC, Co K
Camp #379 SCV


8 May 2009
Compatriots,
I am sure that by now you have all heard of the Heritage Violation that happened on the 23rd of April at Pine Hill Cemetery located in Auburn, Alabama. On this day, Auburn City Councilman Arthur Dowdell entered the cemetery and stole four Confederate "Memorial" flags (reportedly) from the graves of Confederate Veterans. These flags had been placed by the Semmes Chapter of the UDC in Auburn in preparation for their upcoming Memorial service the following Sunday. This act of lawlessness was witnessed by a local historian and UDC member Mrs. Mary Norman. There were many reports of this incident in the local news and across the AP.
The City Council in Auburn held their regular meeting on Tuesday the 5th of May at 7pm. The Army of Tennessee and Alabama Division were very well represented at this council meeting. Present were myself, AoT Commander Kelly Barrow, AoT Councilman and Division 1st Lt. Commander Tom Strain, SEC Brigade Commander Larry Warren, SWC Brigade Commander Joe Clark, NWC Brigade Commander Allan Koester, Past Division Commanders Wilson and Simmons, Tallassee Camp Commander Randall Hughey, Auburn Camp Commander Jerry Purcel, Florida Division 1st Lt Commander Bob Hurst and forty plus fellow SCV members. The evening began with the opening of the meeting room, where we occupied the front row and most of the center section of the seating.
The Mayor then made a statement. In it he said: "Let me be clear, the issue here is not about race, the symbolism of the flag, or the City's cemetery policies; it is about the removal of private property from a private grave." He further stated "I want to assure the Daughter's that I will not support any Council action limiting anyone's right to honor their loved ones by placing flags on a grave."
They then altered the agenda to allow them to bring forward a resolution concerning Dowdell's actions.
Councilman Bob Norman issued the following statement and resolution:
"Statement: By his own admission, Councilman Arthur Dowdell entered Pine Hill Cemetery on April 23rd and removed confederate flags from private burial plots. He was quoted as saying "This will never happen again as long as I'm on the city council."
This is a passionate issue. There is no doubt that Mr. Dowdell is offended by the battle flag of the confederacy, and the appropriateness of its use is open to debate. The way councilman Dowdell chose to enter the debate is inappropriate and beneath the office of city councilman. His actions were inexcusable and have done nothing to help people on either side of this issue find common ground. They have stirred up old hatreds and created embarrassment and controversy for the city he represents.
The Bottom line is that those graves are private property, the placing of flags as memorials are expressions of free speech and Mr. Dowdell had no right to remove them. The fact that Mr. Dowdell invoked his position as a city councilman demands that the city council speak to the issue. Therefore the following is offered as a resolution by the Auburn city council:
Whereas, by his own admission, Councilman Arthur Dowdell entered Pine Hill Cemetery on April 23rd and removed confederate flags from private burial plots; and
Whereas, Councilman Dowdell invoked his position as a city councilman by saying "This will never happen again as long as I'm on the city council;" and
Whereas, the foregoing action was inappropriate and beneath the office of a city councilman;
NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Auburn City Council condemns the actions taken by the Councilman Dowdell, and urges him to make a public apology to the citizens of Auburn, and to pledge that henceforth he will respect the private property and free speech rights of all citizens."
This Resolution passed with one vote against by Dowdell.
The Council then opened the floor for comment from Auburn citizens. A slight majority of these were those brought in by Dowdell, and they were in favor of him. There were also a number of citizens who took strong exception to his actions. The floor was then opened for speakers from outside Auburn to speak. Randall Hughey was the first on our desired lineup, and he did an excellent job. Auburn Camp Commander Jerry Purcel (who lives outside the city limits) was next and did a fine job as well. The selection was not by sign up, but by recognition from the Mayor. Good points were made by a number of speakers and those opposed to Dowdell were the vast majority of those given.
When it became evident that almost everyone present would be coming up to the microphone, it was decided that the public comments would be saved until the end of the meeting.
The regular business of the Council was covered in a very few minutes and we returned to public comment. Just over half of the comments were given in this second session. To the council's credit they patiently listened to the comments being made and gave everyone a chance to speak.
After the public comments session, Dowdell gave his statement in which he publicly apologized to the UDC and the SCV. He excused his actions due to "ignorancy" on his part, and noted that he contacted the City Manager and Mayor about the flags and that they did not know anything about them. He said the Mayor did know there was a program planned for Sunday.
Dowdell's claims of ignorance appeared to be very well founded, though I will certainly not attest to his sense of honesty. The issue here though is that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for lawless behavior.
As a closing comment, Councilman Robin Kelley was visibly shaken when he stated that Dowdell "Broke the law, and desecrated graves, end of discussion" in the removal of the flags. He further chastised Dowdell for not calling him, since it was in his ward. He explained that he lived near the cemetery and knew exactly what the flags were for. Kelley stated that Dowdell would be highly unappreciative of his taking action in Dowdell's ward without first informing Dowdell. Kelley then called for the meeting to adjourn.
In the end what we got was:
1. A statement by the Mayor that Dowdell removed private property from private grave plots.
2. A statement by the Mayor that he "will not supp ort any Council action limiting anyone's right to honor their loved ones by placing flags on a grave."
3. A statement by Councilman Bob Norman and the city council that Dowdell removed (stole) private property and did so as a city councilman.
4. A Resolution that the City Council condemned the actions taken by Dowdell and urged him to make an apology.
5. An apology from Dowdell to the UDC and the SCV.
6. A statement from Councilman Kelly that Dowdell "Broke the law, and desecrated graves, end of discussion".
At this point Dowdell appears as he is, an ignorant self righteous and self serving thug who took the law into his own hands, and has been thoroughly chastised by us and the City Council.
Compatriots, there is no way for the Alabama Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans to pursue a criminal suit against Councilman Dowdell because we do not have a witness willing to step forward to sign the arrest warrant and that no one has produced a list of the graves that were vandalized. We are unable to proceed any further in this case. It is also very clear that if we push this issue, we will possibly turn Councilman Dowdell into a martyr, and gentlemen this is exactly what he wants and needs at this point.
In closing, this is clearly a victory for the Army of Tennessee and Alabama Division. We went to Auburn, showed up in numbers, represented the Division and SCV in a very honorable fashion, and left knowing that the City Council and Mayor's office are clearly upset with Councilman Dowdell's actions. I would like to personally thank all of those involved who assisted the Alabama Division by following the Charge as set forth by General S.D. Lee to the Sons of Confederate Veterans in 1906.

Robert C. Reames
Alabama Division Commander
Sons of Confederate Veterans


Thanks for posting Gregg.


Elliott Cummings
Adjutant
Col. Harry W. Gilmor Camp #1388
Baltimore, MD

hendrickms24
05-12-2009, 10:28 AM
Fair play... But, one last question...

If the United States of America was to be invaded, conquered and destroyed by a foreign power, what flag would YOU want to hang over YOUR grave? :)

-Simon.



I bet the "foreign power" would not let anyone display the US flag which show how great our country is since it allows the CS flag to be used to this day.

Danny
05-12-2009, 11:15 AM
... there is no way for the Alabama Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans to pursue a criminal suit against Councilman Dowdell because we do not have a witness willing to step forward to sign the arrest warrant and that no one has produced a list of the graves that were vandalized. We are unable to proceed any further in this case...

Gregg, the effort's much appreciated, though IMHO despite all the heat the fuse was a dud, so to speak.


...In closing, this is clearly a victory for the Army of Tennessee and Alabama Division.

Victory in "opposite world" maybe. The guy got a tongue-lashing that, no doubt, paled in comparison to those he likely got as a child from his mother. Big whoop.

No one who actually witnessed the violation disagreed enough with the act to officially report the man to police. If they did disagree they didn't have spine enough to follow through in a meaningful way. No one could identify the graves affected, yet someone knew exactly there were four.

The active accusers, apparently having only second-hand knowledge of the incident, were unable to sway the council to effect even a censure, let alone a fine. It seems to me the man got off free as a bird so far, and publicity for his cause besides.

Dan Wykes

gwagner
05-12-2009, 12:36 PM
The lady who's flag was stolen is too chicken fodder to sign the warrant.

This, to me, makes her no better than Dowdell.

Why put out flags on CMD, wear UDC garb, go to the media when they are stolen, and then back down on actually doing something about it when it is a crystal clear matter of a Class A misdemeanor.

The lady who chickened out just ensured this will happen anywhere else in Alabama without the fear of any ramifications.

She has done more to hurt southern heritage efforts than the thug who took the flags.

hendrickms24
05-12-2009, 02:46 PM
The lady who's flag was stolen is too chicken fodder to sign the warrant.

This, to me, makes her no better than Dowdell.

Why put out flags on CMD, wear UDC garb, go to the media when they are stolen, and then back down on actually doing something about it when it is a crystal clear matter of a Class A misdemeanor.

The lady who chickened out just ensured this will happen anywhere else in Alabama without the fear of any ramifications.

She has done more to hurt southern heritage efforts than the thug who took the flags.

That's Smart! Verbally attack the women because she is not pursuing the warrant. Some people just don't have the strength to be put in the spot light. Hey remember it's her right to do it or not.

gwagner
05-12-2009, 04:33 PM
certainly didn't waste any time running for the cameras.

28thNY
05-12-2009, 08:33 PM
I bet the "foreign power" would not let anyone display the US flag which show how great our country is since it allows the CS flag to be used to this day.

Do you have any idea how ridiculously funny and stunningly ironic that comment is in a thread specifically about people removing CS flags from veterans graves?

These are men who fought for their country and for what they believed... Considering how controversial the idea of reconciliation with the south after the war was, given the choice, I expect that the majority in the USA would have most likely wanted to completely remove all signs that the CSA ever existed in the first place.

It's nothing to do with "how great our country is", it's one contoversial policy which followed four years of civil war.

In public circles, the Confederate battle flag is not "used to this day", it is tolerated. The only people who "use" it have tarnished the meaning of that flag over decades of racism and bigotry.

It is these peoples "use" of the flag for which the councilman is removing these flags, it is nothing to do with the civil war, or the Confederate States of America, or for the cause in which the Confederates believed... It is for the warped racist connotations which that flag holds today.

FloridaConfederate
05-13-2009, 06:03 AM
Do you have any idea how ridiculously funny and stunningly ironic that comment is in a thread specifically about people removing CS flags from veterans graves?

These are men who fought for their country and for what they believed...

It is ridiculously funny that you fail to see that non-KIA CS soldiers assimilated and reunited back into the US becoming citizens for their remaining lives and might not desire to lie under a CS flag.

Do you think a WW2 German veteran dying today desires to be buried under the Nazi flag ?

I just did a proper CS Iron Cross placement, color guard and rifle salute this past Saturday in Green Pond Cemetery in Polk City, Florida. 9 CS Soldiers who survived the war are buried there. As I stood in ranks, I couldn't help but think of this thread and how we, 150 years or so later, really project our own modern historical retrospect and beliefs on the CSA and its dead (I was guilty of it for a long time until I was honest in the realization that I no nothing of my ancestors feelings, traits and desires.) In the majority of cases there is nothing to support the individuals post war devotion or attachment to the CS for the remainder of his life as a US citizen.


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

billwatson2
05-13-2009, 06:29 AM
"In the majority of cases there is nothing to support the individuals post war devotion or attachment to the CS for the remainder of his life as a US citizen."

Did you mean nothing to support "the belief" that CS soldiers continued to be devoted to or attached to the Confederacy for the remainder of his life as a US citizen?"

Or did you mean that, literally, there was no reason for a former Confederate to be devoted to the Confederacy?

Really, just trying to clarify.

One point that needs to be raised is that much of the "attachment" was not directly for "The Cause" but for comrades who died. And there is good reason to believe there was a carry-over: If The Cause was empty, their deaths were in vain. That's a tough one to swallow for some folks.

Pvt Schnapps
05-13-2009, 07:34 AM
It's an interesting question. Clearly Jubal Early, Jefferson Davis, and others remained ever true to the Confederacy, while still others like Mosby and Longstreet adjusted pretty well back to the old flag. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same dichotomy amoung Confederate veterans generally, but in the absence of reliable polling data, we'll probably never know the exact proportions. Still, my first reaction on reading your response was to think of that quote -- I think reported by Shelby Foote? -- from the soldier who said something like, "I fought for my country once but I'll be damned if I ever fight for another..."

I guess you can take that a couple of different ways, too :)

hanktrent
05-13-2009, 08:32 AM
It is ridiculously funny that you fail to see that non-KIA CS soldiers assimilated and reunited back into the US becoming citizens for their remaining lives and might not desire to lie under a CS flag.

Okay, here's a specific example for everyone's perusal.

Below is a letter my great great grandfather wrote in 1865. He was born in Virginia, enlisted as a private in the 41st Virginia at the start of the war, fought in the major Virginia and Maryland campaigns, was wounded at the Wilderness, returned to fight again, and was captured at Petersburg. He survived the war in poor health and died of consumption in the 1870s. After the war, he gave his first son the middle name of Lee, not a family name that I know of.



Prisoners Camp
Point Lookout Maryland
March 28th, 1865

Gen. Hoffman,
Sir,
I respectfully make this my application to return to my allegiance to the United States government and become a loyal citizen. It was not my design or intention when this war commenced to rebel against my country but alike a great many others were forced or misled by men whose aim were to break up this government of the United States whose broad stripes and bright stars has and ever will be floating triumphantly over its enemies. I am quite a young man and do not wish to be sent south for exchange when I am fully satisfied that the cause which I have been made to sustain is wrong. Should it be to your pleasure to allow me to take the oath of allegiance, it will ever be acknowledged as a very great favour &c.
Respectfully yours
Name E. Hall, Co. F, Regt 41, State Va., When captured 27th Oct 1864.


What flag, if any, should be placed on his grave?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

mnreb
05-13-2009, 09:09 AM
There is plenty of proof in all of these posts that the war is alive and doing well and will never end in the minds of many. Too many lines drawn in the sand for that to happen.
Best Wishes,
Bill Feuchtenberger
Co.H
1st South Carolina Volunteers

FloridaConfederate
05-13-2009, 09:16 AM
"In the majority of cases there is nothing to support the individuals post war devotion or attachment to the CS for the remainder of his life as a US citizen."

Did you mean nothing to support "the belief" that CS soldiers continued to be devoted to or attached to the Confederacy for the remainder of his life as a US citizen?"

Or did you mean that, literally, there was no reason for a former Confederate to be devoted to the Confederacy?

Really, just trying to clarify.

One point that needs to be raised is that much of the "attachment" was not directly for "The Cause" but for comrades who died. And there is good reason to believe there was a carry-over: If The Cause was empty, their deaths were in vain. That's a tough one to swallow for some folks.


I mean exactly that to which HT's letter attests.

My GGGGrandfather lived 70 odd years, 4 of which under the CS. Lacking credible evidence otherwise, I have no inclination of his personal thoughts on anything, let alone with respect to my modern concept of what a CS soldiers lifelong, post war CSA devotion should consist of.

So for me personally, the only honor I can bestow upon him is his willingness to stand against a Federal foe operating outside of the controls of the 10th Amendment of the Constiution with respect to state soverignity.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

billwatson2
05-13-2009, 10:49 AM
That makes sense, but maybe there's more we can glean. What's on his headstone? A great many vets on both sides had their Civil War service and unit noted on their tombstones. Regardless of the time involved relative to the length of life, a great many found it to be the defining experience of their lives. I'd be saying that in the absence of anything else -- like Hank's letter from a vet who made it clear where he stood -- the evidence of their headstone might be the best clue whether to put a flag up. No military information on the headstone (and there are plenty of those, too) means no military commemoration.

It does in some ways seem a bit rude of us to presume how best to commemorate them, I agree.

tompritchett
05-13-2009, 10:58 AM
Do you think a WW2 German veteran dying today desires to be buried under the Nazi flag ?

I don't know about the Nazi flag but I have seen video of WW2 German veteran funerals in South America where his fellow soldiers gave him the Nazi salute.

MDRebCAv
05-13-2009, 11:12 AM
In my mind it all boils down to the fact that something was inappropriately removed from a gravesite. Here at Fort Meade we have graves of German and Italian WWII P.O.W.s that are venerated each year by embassy personnel with appropriate ceremony and placing of flags/wreaths...foreign flags on enemy graves on Federal property. granted they may be the modern flags of their country, but that is not my concern.

What's all the hubbub about this? Simply because it is the Confederacy and seems to be the Cause-de-Jour? I would rather place the 3rd National myself, but that should be the right of the verteran's family members to decide.

Violating a grave regardless of what prompted any outbreak of emotion is inexcuseable. I would feel exactly the same even if the flag removed was the Rising Sun or the Nazi flag...I find them distasteful but it is NOT my right to violate the placement of them on a gravesite.

PERIOD.

MarkTK36thIL
05-13-2009, 11:43 AM
If they placed the 1st or 2nd Nationals, would this have been an issue?

My guess is probably not, cause some people are pretty ignorant these days and wouldn't take the time figure what the flag was.

Not everyone who fought and died was a volunteer; some probably couldn't get a rats @rse and avoided the service until drafted.

I'd leave them be.

sbl
05-13-2009, 12:04 PM
Then you have the Confederate veteran's graves up here in Massachusetts, one that I posted a photo of above. Modern people placed the CSA flags and updated the stones.

Danny
05-13-2009, 12:51 PM
...What's all the hubbub about this? Simply because it is the Confederacy and seems to be the Cause-de-Jour?...

No, you've missed the point. . It's not the Confederacy that's the Cause-de-jour here. The hub-bub is about what the battle flag of the former Confederacy came also to represent after the war - the symbol of white racism. You may not like that it also became that, but you can't deny it and you can't change it. Whatever you or I may wish for it, whatever claim you or I make for it, whatever you or I think it is; it's also equally recognized as the flag of white racism, there's nothing to deny, water past the bridge.

Given that, it's not too hard to figure out why the "Bishop" felt motivated to commit the minor desecration, as he and many of his fellow Southerners' antecedents suffered under the legacy of that flag. Keep in mind he had supporters even in the Council meeting.

Point is, the hub-bub is, why waste a lot of time and energy defending the use of an absconded flag when there are equally honorable symbols to use in its place. Just cause it's a cool design? Not a good reason. You move on. You encourage use of the 3rd National, or you encourage use of the crossed U.S. and Confederate battle flags as a symbol of the CW, not either side.


...Violating a grave regardless of what prompted any outbreak of emotion is inexcuseable...
PERIOD.

Well, not quite. The "Bishop" had an excuse, as noted above. Granted it was not a good enough excuse to give him a pass for breaking the law, or for disrespecting the dead, but it's not exactly a cut-and-dried PERIOD either. Invoking absolutes is just too easy. You have to consider the extent of the deed, and removing little temporary flags from a few graves on the spur of the moment is but a small desecration by a small man. Not a hanging offense.

Dan Wykes

mnreb
05-13-2009, 01:29 PM
The Bishop had no excuse period. This is not about the battle flag. This is about what is right or wrong. Last I checked, there is no law against anyone putting flag, flowers, etc. on a grave. Removing an object is. This whole conversation turned because somone wanted it to. I wonder if the Bishop can trace his ancestory back to the slave/indentured days, or is this just another cry of wolf. I guess I should just about hate eveyone because I am Irish and Native American. I choose not to live in the past. Some people cannot get out of it even though they had nothing to do with it.
Have a nice day!
Bill Feuchtenberger
Co. H
1st South Carolina Volunteers
"It Do"

Danny
05-13-2009, 01:52 PM
...This is not about the battle flag...

Bill -

I understand your view of it, but I was thinking this is mostly about the battle flag. The incident would not have occurred, made the news, made this thread were it not.

dw

mnreb
05-13-2009, 02:02 PM
Danny,
Looking at it that way, I agree.
Bill

5 th Alabama Infantry
05-13-2009, 02:53 PM
No, you've missed the point. . It's not the Confederacy that's the Cause-de-jour here. The hub-bub is about what the battle flag of the former Confederacy came also to represent after the war - the symbol of white racism. You may not like that it also became that, but you can't deny it and you can't change it. Whatever you or I may wish for it, whatever claim you or I make for it, whatever you or I think it is; it's also equally recognized as the flag of white racism, there's nothing to deny, water past the bridge.

Given that, it's not too hard to figure out why the "Bishop" felt motivated to commit the minor desecration, as he and many of his fellow Southerners' antecedents suffered under the legacy of that flag. Keep in mind he had supporters even in the Council meeting.

Point is, the hub-bub is, why waste a lot of time and energy defending the use of an absconded flag when there are equally honorable symbols to use in
its place. Just cause it's a cool design? Not a good reason. You move on. You encourage use of the 3rd National, or you encourage use of the crossed U.S. and Confederate battle flags as a symbol of the CW, not either side.

Well, not quite. The "Bishop" had an excuse, as noted above. Granted it was not a good enough excuse to give him a pass for breaking the law, or for disrespecting the dead, but it's not exactly a cut-and-dried PERIOD either. Invoking absolutes is just too easy. You have to consider the extent of the deed, and removing little temporary flags from a few graves on the spur of the moment is but a small desecration by a small man. Not a hanging offense.

Dan Wykes


You’re still advocating compromise , capitulation, surrender, call it what you will; with crossed flags, 3 rd Nationals, etc. etc. I can’t make it any clearer, we will never do that.

Pvt Schnapps
05-13-2009, 03:26 PM
You’re still advocating compromise , capitulation, surrender, call it what you will; with crossed flags, 3 rd Nationals, etc. etc. I can’t make it any clearer, we will never do that.

Ah, but that brings up the question of 'we.' I think an increasing number of folks will, simply because using the battle flag doesn't send the message about heritage that they want to send.

We can blame the skewed message on "politically correct" feeling on the part of those objecting, but that would only ring true if the battle flag simply stood for what it did for three and a half years a century and a half ago. It doesn't, which gives more credence to the objections to it.

But that too may change with time, and we can all agree that when that time comes about we'll all be happier. I mean, if we're not dead by then. :)

In the meantime, the English cross of St. George provides an interesting counter-example. Apparently racist skinheads over there have adopted it as a symbol of white heritage, but it still gets flown without much objection. Why? I would guess because it had a number of centuries of use for other purposes before the bozos tried to co-opt it. Unfortunately our version of the cross of St. Andrew suffers from disproportionate bozo abuse.

sbl
05-13-2009, 03:35 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Aws118bcuG8/SJ24rKpxU1I/AAAAAAAADvs/NHwUsXO25O8/s200/NoBozos.jpg

hendrickms24
05-13-2009, 04:12 PM
I bet the "foreign power" would not let anyone display the US flag which show how great our country is since it allows the CS flag to be used to this day.


Do you have any idea how ridiculously funny and stunningly ironic that comment is in a thread specifically about people removing CS flags from veterans graves?


I was answering your question! Did USSR let the White Russan's flag be placed on graves? After the French Revoltion did the French government let the Royal French flag fly in their country? The answer is NO! But I guess your right that one man removing some flags is the same as The United States Government saying you can not place CSA flags on graves? :confused:

hendrickms24
05-13-2009, 04:27 PM
certainly didn't waste any time running for the cameras.

I have not seen any news report with a photo of her! Do you know of one?



She has done more to hurt southern heritage efforts than the thug who took the flags.


I still don't know how she could have hurt southern heritage but you are allowed to have your own opinion. The man will lose his job at the next election so he will see that there are consequences to his actions.

Enjoy,

reddcorp
05-13-2009, 04:43 PM
The problem is that the "Bishop" will likely keep his job next election. It is my recollection that his district was carved out i.e. jerrymandered so that a minority could be elected. His actions will likely be applauded by most of his constituents who see him as a hero, standing up to the racist White Man.
So it goes.

A.Redd

Danny
05-13-2009, 05:30 PM
You’re still advocating compromise , capitulation, surrender, call it what you will; with crossed flags, 3 rd Nationals, etc. etc. I can’t make it any clearer, we will never do that.

5th -

Of course you don't represent any majority "we" to begin with. You don't represent all Southerners, not even all those with Confederate heritage, let alone the rest of your fellow Southerners with Unionist or slave heritage. If it's reenactors that you're claiming as the "we", well you don't represent all of them either. Just to be clear on that point.

As to what you'll "never do", friend it's already been done. Your battle flag has already been compromised, capitulated, surrendered to the racists years ago. You're too late. You're left holding the bag.

Spend all your time defending a symbol of... what? You have a perfectly good and honorable flag that actually flew over the Confederacy that wasn't absconded by the racists.

Think of it as a chance to win for once.

My opinion only.

dw

Spinster
05-13-2009, 07:59 PM
The lady who's flag was stolen is too chicken fodder to sign the warrant.

This, to me, makes her no better than Dowdell.

Why put out flags on CMD, wear UDC garb, go to the media when they are stolen, and then back down on actually doing something about it when it is a crystal clear matter of a Class A misdemeanor.

The lady who chickened out just ensured this will happen anywhere else in Alabama without the fear of any ramifications.

She has done more to hurt southern heritage efforts than the thug who took the flags.


Galen,
What you are seeing is a classic model of "what southern females of a certain age, don't do" .

For a number of years in my little 'marginal' neighborhood, I was the only woman brave/stupid enough to swear out a warrant. I did so multiple times for the other single women on my street, all of whom were widows at least 30 years my senior.

I paid the price for that too, for a warrant makes public a whole lot of things, including the probability of one being a single female living alone, otherwise the man of the house would have signed that warrant.

Alabama law cannot protect a woman in the night, during the long minutes between when the police are called and when they arrive. A double barrel can, but it messes up the plaster in the living room something awful.

And while the lady was terribly foolish to have her name aired on the television, its likely that her local UDC sat her down and reminded her just how ladies do handle such things.

The charter of the UDC says this:

The objectives (http://www.hqudc.org/objectives/index.html) of the organization are Historical, Educational, Benevolent, Memorial and Patriotic:

To collect and preserve the material necessary for a truthful history of the War Between the States (http://www.hqudc.org/about/wbts.html) and to protect, preserve, and mark the places made historic by Confederate valor
To assist descendants of worthy Confederates in securing a proper education
To fulfill the sacred duty of benevolence toward the survivor of the War and those dependent upon them
To honor the memory of those who served and those who fell in the service of the Confederate States of America
To record the part played during the War by Southern women, including their patient endurance of hardship, their patriotic devotion during the struggle, and their untiring efforts during the post-War reconstruction of the South
To cherish the ties of friendship among the members of the Organization The UDC as an organization quickly removes itself from public controversy, especially political controversy. And there are many folks who do not understand the cultural underlay that requires just that sort of action.

Its the task of the Sons to deal with this sort of thing. They seem to have done so quite admirably.

sbl
05-13-2009, 09:20 PM
I'm getting an education on American culture. Thanks.

Spinster
05-13-2009, 09:39 PM
It IS pretty funny, isn't it?

The old saying goes "A lady has her name in the newspapers on only two occassions in her life--when she marries and when she dies"

I hear that same line of reasoning carried over when ladies I know tell me "Oh, I can't possibly post on a public forum. Its just not done. "

As a result, I often receive emails asking some question or another, and I'm not the best person to answer it. That's when I'll end up posting the question myself, and watching the answers roll in.

sbl
05-13-2009, 10:16 PM
Very Tennessee Williams.

flattop32355
05-13-2009, 11:05 PM
One aspect that hasn't been addressed yet is the idea of free speech.

Disclaimer:
I'm a Yankee. A Northerner. Very strongly Federal/Unionist.
Also, I personally do not believe that any and all forms of expression qualify as free speech. I believe our courts in the last 50+ years have taken it places it was never intended to go. However, using the current views of what is defined as "free speech".....

The individual who removed the flags expressly and knowingly denied those who placed the flags on the graves their right to free speech. This coming from an individual who should know better, whose ancestors were denied that same right, whose near ancestors very likely marched in the '50's and
'60's to regain that right, and who now blatantly chose to deny that right to others with whom he disagreed.

I find it telling when those who demand their rights find it easy to deny those same rights to others.

Spinster
05-13-2009, 11:26 PM
Scott,

Flannery O'Conner wrote that children in the North do not know their crazy aunts because their families hid them. She also wrote that children in the South did know their crazy aunts because their families did not hide them

Good writers draw from what they know--and Williams knew the society around him, at that time and place.

For years, I thought William Faulker's work to be truely original and unique--and then I opened the pages of Pickett's History of Alabama and Incidentally of Mississippi and Georgia from the Earliest Times, and met some of the same people. By name.

Look to your own culture and you will find the same sort of unique cultural quirks. If you cannot, then you have not been out of your culture enough.....

And yes, here in a minute somebody will say 'but we are all Americans'. Yes, that's so. We also are all human beings. This does not mean we are all alike.

sbl
05-14-2009, 07:22 AM
Thank you Mrs. Lawson.

Around here crazy aunts run the historical society or post on internet forums. I've always wondered about the sanctity of "States Rights" as in the US the borders of states are either natural such as water or man-made lines. In other places it was more of a people already living in a "state."
Here native peoples were pushed out in various unpleasant ways and the people that filled in the void seem to have taken their own cultures and given them a state identity.

MDRebCAv
05-14-2009, 07:55 AM
The point that I was trying to make about this guy is basically what our Mom's taught us way back when: "Don't take anything that does not belong to you."

I feel it is especially so when the something taken is from a gravesite. He did it simply because it is fashionable to demonize the Confederacy...what I called "the Cause-de-Jour."

At least that was the point that I was trying to make... :-)

gwagner
05-14-2009, 09:28 AM
Ms Lawson,

I guess I see your point...but in this case a trip to booking would have taught this a$$ a lesson, and I doubt in Auburn there would have been any retribution.

What the SCV got was not near the same as this guy having to stand in front of a judge, and explain why he stole personal property from a grave, in my opinion.

I just am having a hard time swallowing a run to the camera, and then refusal to take the only legal action.

I appreciate your thoughts, they do help.

Danny
05-14-2009, 12:46 PM
One aspect that hasn't been addressed yet is the idea of free speech...The individual who removed the flags expressly and knowingly denied those who placed the flags on the graves their right to free speech...

Or, it was little temporary plastic decorations snatched off a few graves in a fit of misbehaviour. Kids do it all the time.

Dan Wykes

Spinster
05-14-2009, 02:04 PM
Maybe where you are from, they do.

Not here. And if they do, there are consequences.

Danny
05-14-2009, 03:26 PM
Maybe where you are from, they do.
Not here. And if they do, there are consequences.

Mrs. Lawson -

Oh, please. Kids mess around in graveyards, and they've done that for years, and in your area too. If they were caught there were consequences, and if they got away there were no consequences, even in your area of the Country. In my circle, I trust yours as well, a kid faces a worse punishment from Mom and Dad than anything they'd get from the Police or Courts.

Keep in mind that on this forum you're talking to a bunch of boys, the kind of boys, normal American kids, that got talked into a little trouble now and then. We still like to knock things over and blow things up.

btw, my feeling is that that adult women everywhere are perfectly capable of standing up for their opinions and have the right - and the duty - to report criminal incidents on their own. If they shy from that it's either a character fault and we blame them, or they are shy and we understand, but it's an anachronistic excuse that anyone expects men should speak for "proper ladies", and condescending to contemporary women, if I may speak for those I know and admire.

Dan Wykes

Ross L. Lamoreaux
05-14-2009, 03:47 PM
[deletion- THP] You seem to glean only what fits your agenda sometimes. Mrs. Lawson no more said that women should act "anachronistic" than you've said people should go out and tear up graveyards. She merely mentioned that its a characteristic of some people in this part of the world, particularly of the older slant. I sometimes wonder if you just spout some of this stuff just for the reaction, or if you really believe what you put out there.

Danny
05-14-2009, 04:07 PM
Dan, you really need to learn some reading comprehension. You seem to glean only what fits your agenda sometimes. Mrs. Lawson no more said that women should act "anachronistic" than you've said people should go out and tear up graveyards. She merely mentioned that its a characteristic of some people in this part of the world, particularly of the older slant. I sometimes wonder if you just spout some of this stuff just for the reaction, or if you really believe what you put out there.

And I merely said, not about Mrs. Lawson, that "btw, my feeling is that that adult women everywhere are perfectly capable of standing up for their opinions etc. etc. ..."

Hence, if there is a problem with reading comprehension, it may be yours. She and I were commenting on the same phenomenon, nothing more.

dw

Spinster
05-14-2009, 08:53 PM
"Danny" in a nutshell.

True on multiple levels.

Danny
05-15-2009, 10:55 AM
"Danny" in a nutshell.

Do ya ever have anything to say on the actual topics on this Forum, Carl? ;)

dw

Danny
05-15-2009, 11:03 AM
True on multiple levels.

Very true, this flag incident has been discussed on multiple levels. Good thread -- lots of angles, suggestions, outlooks...

Dan W

Spinster
05-17-2009, 07:14 AM
BernieHoney,

The prime way of dealing with folks in polite society is societal disapprobation. It is the primary tool of the moderators here. This is, after all, Mr. Szabo's Dinner Table, and not a tavern for the common hooligan.

Now, I know why you are not in the field this weekend, when everybody east of the Mississippi who does reenact is in the field--but take you a nice walk someplace woodsy today after church. You are the only once-EUB I've ever met, and I want you happy and calm enough to last a long time.

And, being active reanactors, all the moderators are in the field, right on up to the man who set this dinnertable. 'Cept me, and at least the room smells like wood smoke. I learn something new every time --and this weekend I learned that my personal rule of 'No field events in the Deep South between Memorial Day and Labor Day no matter how much fun they sound' needs a bit of revision as to the date parameters.

And Mistah Tom, before Pretty Girl #1 put me in the wagon and hauled my overheated self out of that lovely southron woods, I spent part of that lovely day under Mr. Szabo's tent fly. The matters you have raised concerns over are now understood and will be dealt with.

tompritchett
05-18-2009, 06:46 PM
And Mistah Tom, before Pretty Girl #1 put me in the wagon and hauled my overheated self out of that lovely southron woods, I spent part of that lovely day under Mr. Szabo's tent fly. The matters you have raised concerns over are now understood and will be dealt with.

Thank you very much. When I discovered that Bob was not a New Market but instead at Resca, I was hoping that you might run into him and have a nice little chat. Again thank you very much. I am truly in your debt.

Now, as far as Danny's "Oh please" - I leave it entirely up to your discretion as to whether or not I react in my role as a moderator.

Spinster
05-18-2009, 07:11 PM
Mistah Prichett,

It has already been established that the poster does not play well with others, and that he is unable to pick up basic clues from differing cultures. I believe this is regarded as a disability in some circles.

Otherwise, I would simply chalk it up to being one of Those People. I've realized that this classification is problematic on my part though, as I spend most of my free time being a Unionist, and playing with Federals these days. I've found the hardcore ones to be perfectly delightful fellers.

Given my recent discussions, I think our problem will be solved in due time.


I had fun last weekend, How About You?

tompritchett
05-18-2009, 07:49 PM
As this thread has out lived its original purpose and has become a little too cumbersome to manage, I am now closing it.