Brogans Question

[JohnSeever]

Currently, I have my Leather's and my Union uniform, minus the brogans and musket. I plan to have these items by the end of the year, money allowing at least. Which I purchased from C&C Sutlery and a few other items form as Jas Townsend and Son and Mercury Supply Company Sutler.

I am also looking for a place to purchase a good pair of brogans, and how do you determine the size that one will need, since I have been told by different sutlers via phone and e-mail that it is:

A) your shoe size.
B) To go a half size than what you normally wear.

If anyone can help me here, it will be appreciated.

[MMurphy]

I know that this is going to sound weird....and sometimes it could be hard if not impossible, but the best thing to do when getting brogans is to find a sutler and try on a pair...Depending on how they are made is all the difference...

[sunnylady408]

It all depends on who you get your brogans from. We mainly deal with crescent city sutler and they go by shoe size. My husband did have to go bigger than his normal size for comfort reasons but my sons did not.
I would do like my husband did just for the comfort factor.

[ILYankee5]

I will refer you to missouri boot and shoes ideas on how to order your brogans by mail. I hope this helps. This can be some of your most important gear you pick up, so please, once again please for the sake of your feet choose wisely when selecting brogans.

Also PM Sent

http://missouribootandshoe.tripod.com/id8.html

[NYCivilWar]

I wouldn't look any further than Missouri Boot and Shoe. I have purchased a pair of Federal Bootees and a pair of Civilian boots from MB&S and they are without a doubt the best on the market. As for your concerns to finding the correct fit; when you order from MB&S it is mandatory that you send in a tracing of each foot with the sock you'll be wearing plus other measurements of your foot (instep, ball, heal etc.) to ensure a proper fit, you WON'T find that with any other vendor.

Your footware is something that you'll want to put some bread into, don't waste your money on some sutler row variety, you'll regret it...Read the historical documentation on their website, I believe they use period lasts in the drying process.

It usually takes 1-2 months to complete your order, but it is well worth the wait and money...

Just my two cents...

-Kyle M. Stetz

[flattop32355]

It all depends upon what quality of footwear you wish to purchase.

Some vendors have shoes made in Mexico or other countries don't hold up as well as some other vendors' shoes. You get what you pay for.

Since you'll be spending a fair bit of time in those shoes, you want them to be as comfortable (granted, a relative assessment for brogans) as possible. Few things can ruin a good weekend faster than shoes that hurt or damage your feet. Do not ask me how I know this....

Missouri Boot and Shoe custom makes their shoes to a tracing of your foot. It's what I now wear. In the past, I've owned (and my son still uses) shoes from Fall Creek Suttlery, which have served well. A number of other vendors have good reputations for their shoes.

Don't shortcut on price for false savings over real value. The feet you save will be your own.

If they aren't the custom sized ones, get 'em a half size larger than your modern shoe size to allow for a second pair of socks for cold weather wear.

[JohnSeever]

The Sutler in Liberty had a pair, actually they were all Wide pairs, and I tried on a few, and they were too big. I have to get a wide show cause I have a somewhat wide foot, but, I also like to have a nice fit. Also being a diabetic does not help. I know my CO has oked me to wear my black work boots till I get a pair of brogans. Which I hope will be within the next 2 or so months.

Thank you all for the help and information here.

[reddcorp]

Pard:
I've purchased several pairs of brogans from several vendors over the years; but I must concur with several of the responders that Missouri Boot and Shoe is a excellent choice for your purchase. As noted, you send a precise measurement of both feet and they make your brogans to order. From my own personal experience, the fit is fantastic and my Missouri brogans are the most comfortable that I've had.
Don't go cheap on your brogans. A properly fitting & well made pair will last a good while, when properly maintained. A poorly made and improperly fitted pair will cause naught but grief, and sore feet.
*And they aren't paying me anything for this endorsement.

A.Redd

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

A shoemaker at Colonial Williamsburg told me that a common problem with ordering "wide" sizes is that the makers do not always have the wide lasts needed and simply use a bigger size shoe hoping to deal with the width that way.

It has been my experience with several of even the respected
"premium" shoemakers that I end up with shoes that are 1-3 inches LONGER than where a shoe should end past one's toes.

One told me that Civil War shoes have to be longer than normal so that when the sole bends over time and use, the bending up does not break one's toes.

I can "live with" an inch or two beyond a half inch or inch, but when there are 3-4 inches of shoe beyond my toe, not so much. (Stuffing the space with rags is not what I like to pay the Big Bucks to experience, but that is just me...)

What I had to do was submit a foot tracings that are shrunk a shoe size or two, and fudge the several measurements of my left and right feet- to get a pair of shoes that actually "fit."

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS
If the shoe fits, wear it Mess

[mmescher]

Check with the vendor to make sure you can return them if they don't fit and are clean.

If that is the case, order them well in advance and, when you get them, wear them indoors as much as you can. This will loosen them up as well as make sure the fit is good. If the fit is off, you'll be able to report where they are loose/tight.

But please, don't wear them for an event and then expect the sutler to take them back, especially if they are caked with mud or other materials.

Michael Mescher

[Shawn Sturgill]

Hello,
I would reccomend Missouri Boot & Shoe or robert land for Footwear.MB&S will custom make the shoe to a tracing of your feet(as stated above).If ordering from Robert Land,I would go about half a size SMALLER then normal.I ordered a pair of shoes from him in size 10(my normal shoe size)and they were larger then normal size 10 shoes.Both maker produce very nice shoes,and your money would be well spent with either vendor.I would in the past have reccomended Cedar Creek for Federal Bootees,but they are not quite the same since Jim passed.Just my $0.02.

[bob 125th nysvi]

anybody because I bought on of mine from a vendor on Ebay and one off the Forum here.

What I did do is buy them a size to size and a half bigger (in dress shoes I'm an 11 1/2-12 depending on manufacturer) in order to be able to wear two pairs of socks.

The reality is with any shoe is until you have a chance to break them in you really can't be 100% sure how comfortable they'll be. So even tryign them on is not a garuntee that they are going to fit properly. Especially if you expect to march long distances in them.

After 4 years I'm still wearing my 'cheap' pair off of Ebay. Although I had to have them re-soled and heeled this winter. Cost me as much to do that as they were to buy in the first place.

Never EVER had a problem with feet.

[Rob Weaver]

I've broken shoes in 3 ways. Least recommended: Wear them brand new on an 11 mile march. Spend the rest of the weekend with ankles that bear a shocking resemblance to raw meat.
Most recommended: Clean and soften new shoes with saddle soap 2 or 3 times and wear them around the house. Go for several walks of lengthening distance as theybegin to break in.
Realistic option: Wear your new shoes for a while around the house to break them in.
This last is how my current shoes got broken in and they are the most comfortable of the above mentioned.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Some lads, having determined that the initial fit and feel are not going to criple them in an hour or two...
And knowing that they are not going to be able to return or exchange them afterwards-

Soak the shoes wet, and placing plastic bags over their feet, wear the shoes for a day and then let them dry out.
This helps the leather and the show construction adopt to the weirdness of one's left and right feet.

(Of course, there are inside and outside considerations such as heel plates and/or hobnails are not "user friendly" to hardwood, ceramic, and other types of non-carpeted flooring.)

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[johnerys]

Curt, thats how mine got broke in - by accident. We were at an event in Toledo Ohio ( Wildwood) at the tail end of the hurricane last year and got soaked. Now my brogans fit like a glove.

[JohnSeever]

Looking at the MB&S website, they have a lot of brogans listed. Not sure which ones to get, the JB-1 or the JB-2. What would all of you say?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Herr John, assuming you have no unit standards requiring this or that version, or sewn or pegged, etc., etc...

IMHO, you have entered the realm of making personal likes and dislikes, and druthers, type choices from Historically Correct (Period Correct) options.

Meaning, even when choosing from HC/PC choices, if you are not governed or required to match unit stanrds, then you are free to match your personal standards and choices.

Some lads like to choose just to be somewhat different.
Some lads like to choose what is felt to be the most "Plain, Everyday, and Common" (PEC) from out of HC/PC options.
Some lads like to strive to "fit in" with a "by like company" issuance concept so that they look like they belong in the same unit.
Some lads just like the visual look of "A" over "B" or "C."
Some lads end up with "A" because they needed shoes and spied a for sale listing at a good price.

CHS

[JohnSeever]

I see. I am most likely going to go with MB&S, but it will still be few months to get the money, after I get bills caught up.

[Spinster]

Mr. Seever,

Since you live in Missouri, it would be worth your while to call and make an appointment to visit Missouri Boot and Shoe, for an in-person fitting.

Its not that you won't get a good fitting by sending off the measurements listed on the website--you will. Visiting will give you more opportunity to try different styles, learn something about the process, and get a custom fitting.

Pack your lunch--he's a talker, and has a lot of knowledge to share.

Also in town, the George Washington Carver National Monument.

[2RIV]

I find you have to try them on and get to know the vendor's product. For example:

With MB&S I go a 1/2 size smaller

With Robert Land I go a full size smaller.

[Poor Private]

I guess I just got lucky. I bought mine on Ebay for 35 smackeroos. Fit perfectly. I let someone else break em in.
Just gave them a good disinfecting, and cleaning. Have worn them goin on 6 years on my latest pair.

[Poor Private]

I guess I just got lucky. I bought mine on Ebay for 35 smackeroos. Fit perfectly. I let someone else break em in.
Just gave them a good disinfecting, and cleaning. Have worn them goin on 6 years on my latest pair.
A pair of Fugawees.

[musketbal]

I have two pair. One was made by MB& S. I've had them for about 10 years I think. They are constructed like a tank. I did have them hobnailed.I completed a 10 mile march.MAN did that hurt. I felt every hobnail in the brogan. The quality and every detail associated MB&S brogans are first rate.

Brent Conner

[Artyman]

Curt,

It's interesting how you mention the "too long" size deal. I bought a pair if 7 1/2" brogans for my "servant boy" to wear this year. Width wise they fit him perfectly, length wise...they are long as my size 10's!!

Oh well, he's only 10 right now, and his dad is a pretty big fellow. Guess he'll grow into 'em eventually.

Harry

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As the saying goes... I don't know "whatsupwiddat."

While everyone has their own experiences, and their own feet... I have always" had a problem with (IMHO) excessive length even from the premier makers, including Bob Serio at MB &S.

I also have problems because I have high arches, and unless boots are custom-made, I rarely can fit my size boot without my foot getting stuck and not passing the arch no matter what contortions and gymnastics I try.
Either the boot has to be made to my feet, or I can sometimes buy a large size and hope there is not too much "slop" in the heels and/or storage space in the toes.

I have to believe the shoemaker from Colonial Williamsburg's observation as true.

But I also realize that, with reason, folks have different feet shape. While my toes are arranged more like along a 45 degree angle, my wife's toes are almost but not quite straight across except for the little toe.
At any rate, where which toes extend beyond the end of one's foot will vary- and that can create the reality or illusion of too much toe space beyond the toe line.

IMHO, there should not be 2-4 inches beyond the end of one's big toe (or whatever toe projects the furthrest forward of the five...).

Adding a strange commentary...

The ONLY shoes of the five or six pairs I have had across the spectrum of "mainstream" and "premier" makers that "fit" when it came to toe space were...

the late 1970's made Frye Boot CW shoes, and the "Hong Kong Phooey" imports of G. Gedney Godwin (one of the first repro CW shoes at the time).
The next "closest" were those of C & D Jarnagin.

I wonder how the Colonial Williamsburg limited run edition shoes fit? :)

In the end, and due to the lack of regard for size issuances during the CW War, comments about "canal boots" and "scows" come to mind.
But in the end, space in the toe is far worse than not enough space, or more particularly too much space wearing blisters and chewing up the rest of the foot like heels and ankles...

Others' mileage, and "Shoeology," will vary...

CHS

[Mint Julep]

The Sutler in Liberty had a pair, actually they were all Wide pairs, and I tried on a few, and they were too big. I have to get a wide show cause I have a somewhat wide foot, but, I also like to have a nice fit. Also being a diabetic does not help. I know my CO has oked me to wear my black work boots till I get a pair of brogans. Which I hope will be within the next 2 or so months.

Thank you all for the help and information here.

John,

If you are diabetic and use orthotics, then you really need to order from Bob Serio at Missouri Boot and Shoe. He will give you complete instructions on how to measure WITH your inserts and make you a great pair of well-fitting shoes.

My Serio brogans are the best fitting pair of shoes I own, bar none.

[Spinster]

Curt,

The high arch thing is also a problem for me with period shoes. In modern shoes, back when we could get a combination last, I wore a 6 1/2AA on a AAAA heel.

All this means that I cannot get my foot into a pair of Robert Lands. I can get on the Fugawee gusseted shoes, but only if I go up to a 7 1/2. These don't meet the standards at many events.

What has finally worked is going for 'boats', and making accomodations. I can get into a 9 Lands and then fill the toes with combed wool roving, layered in and carefully shaped over several days of wearing out walking. My leather arch supports cup and hold my foot back in the shoe.

[Artyman]

Frye boots! Now there is a shot from the past. My first officer boots were custom made Fryes. As odd as it sounds today, in 1979 period correct cuffed riding boots were hard to find and had to be hand made.

Then I remember GGG getting the first Rev War soldier buckle shoes. The whole unit switched to them within two years. Prior to that we resorted to leather soled Army lowquarters covered up by gaiters. Some guys had leather buckle straps sewn onto lowquarters. It was easier to get the buckles than it was the shoes.

Short version...we never took shoes (or Charlevilles) for granted.

Harry

[Rob Weaver]

I remember the days of covering low quarters with spats too. Wow, seems like only yesterday. My Fugawee's 18th century shoes are some of the most comfortable footwear I have - a little bit more heel makes them easier on my feet than my brogans, although they do feel like dancing pumps.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

IMHO...

If I were diabetic, I would not risk my toes, feet, lower legs, or upper legs to the risk of wounds that will not heal caused by improper or ill-fighting mass-produced sutler shoes.

But having had a handful of family members incrementally "whittled down" and some cut down to their hips- I am a bit sensitive to missing legs.
Spend the extra few twenties and have a pair of shoes crafted to the needs of your feet.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[Parault]

I got to throw in a reply too. Go with MB&S. It is well worth it.

[Regular3]

The ONLY shoes of the five or six pairs I have had across the spectrum of "mainstream" and "premier" makers that "fit" when it came to toe space were...

the late 1970's made Frye Boot CW shoes, and the "Hong Kong Phooey" imports of G. Gedney Godwin (one of the first repro CW shoes at the time).
The next "closest" were those of C & D Jarnagin.I've had a pair of Jarnagin shoes since 1984 - The only pair I've ever owned. They've been resoled twice in that time and I expect they'll 'do me out.'