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creel
08-02-2006, 02:47 PM
Does anybody out there have links to web sites or phots of the event.

I'm looking for photos of the US marines if anybody saw us.

bizzilizzit
08-02-2006, 03:19 PM
Don't know if these are what you are lookig for, but here's a photo link:

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=a96t81i7.1uzpdg8f&Uy=-9qpwwd&Ux=1

Elizabeth

cookiemom
08-02-2006, 05:16 PM
Don't know if these are what you are lookig for, but here's a photo link:

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=a96t81i7.1uzpdg8f&Uy=-9qpwwd&Ux=1

Elizabeth
You got some nice shots there, Elizabeth! Now I KNOW what I missed... :(

Carole

bizzilizzit
08-02-2006, 06:11 PM
You got some nice shots there, Elizabeth! Now I KNOW what I missed... :(

Carole

Thanks, Carole. Here's what you missed: Saturday: Heat and Humidity and Rain. Sunday: Weather was quite nice, however, the single shuttle they had to carry reenactors AND spectators to various camps/sites was always too crowded to get on, so I put another 10 miles or so on my boots walking between Federal and Confederate camps, Belle Grove, the Sutlers, and the BIG TENT. The battle on Sunday was awesome! Saw lots of unusual uniforms plus the SQUARE.

Did you get what you were looking for, Jamey?
Elizabeth

VaTrooper
08-02-2006, 06:27 PM
We did the square Saturday too.

Pvt_Idaho
08-02-2006, 08:11 PM
Dear Elizabeth,

I enjoyed seeing what I missed too--was physically there but placed so way out in left field on the other side I might as well not been. Well done and thanks for sharing your photos.

Audrey Scanlan

cookiemom
08-02-2006, 09:13 PM
We did the square Saturday too.
The Kid wants to know if you're in any of the photos. ;)

VaTrooper
08-02-2006, 09:14 PM
A couple but Its hard to make me out. I'll look again.

VaTrooper
08-02-2006, 09:35 PM
Top Row, 12 pic from the left: Im the front line horse thats infront of the 3rd dismounted from the right.

4th Row, 8th Pic from left: Right behind the fella with the red bandana thats horse is facing the camera.

4th Row, 10th pic from left: Im the lefty banging sabres with the fella on the white horse.

dustyswb
08-02-2006, 09:46 PM
I don't recall reading about a rally square at the original battle. Can someone document that for me?

Thanks

VaTrooper
08-02-2006, 09:52 PM
Polyester either but boy was it out there!

cookiemom
08-02-2006, 10:18 PM
Top Row... 4th Row... 4th Row
Thanks. We'll check them out after school tomorrow. ;)
Caroline

Regular3
08-03-2006, 07:08 AM
I don't recall reading about a rally square at the original battle. Can someone document that for me?

Thanks
Mike, It didn't make it into any of the official reports, but Lt. Dangerfield Parker of the Third Infantry recorded in his journal that the battalion of Regulars briefly formed a square against Confederate cavalry during the early stages of the retreat.

Note I said "briefly" as Parker said they had not been formed long before a battery started lobbing shells their way - gunners love a giant sitting duck target like that - and Sykes reduced the square and they covered the retreat by other means.

Timothy Reese in his book about the Regular Division paints a picture of Sykes moving the square down the road like some Civil War version of a Roman "testudo" formation, but tactically that wasn't done - a square was never moved 30 paces before being reduced, it's just too cumbersome to coordinate movement in four directions at once.

Many of us who've researched this have wondered and discussed why neither Sykes nor Stuart nor anyone else who saw it mentioned it and we finally came to the conclusion that it's because it would not have been considered an exceptional manuever. They were West Point, Regular Army trained, and so they understood that when threatened with cavalry, infantry forms a square. They knew it, their superiors knew it, and there'd be no reason for a commander to report "I had my command do what's expected in that situation." Parker on the other hand was an 18-year-old second lieutenant, just commissioned from civilian life in May 1861, and to him it must have seemed a wondrous thing, thus the mention in his account.

Also, the 69th New York apparently tried it, also without much success. It was the only time it was done during the war.

redpatch
08-03-2006, 07:38 AM
Also, the 69th New York apparently tried it, also without much success. It was the only time it was done during the war.


Unless you believe the accounts regarding Lane's Brigade on July 1 who formed a square in response to Gamble's feints.

Rob Galbraith

bizzilizzit
08-03-2006, 08:21 AM
The Kid wants to know if you're in any of the photos. ;)

Sorry - no! I have an allergy to being in front of the camera.

Elizabeth

Regular3
08-03-2006, 08:55 AM
Unless you believe the accounts regarding Lane's Brigade on July 1 who formed a square in response to Gamble's feints.

Rob Galbraith
Thanks for the tidbit, Rob - I wasn't aware of that. So I amend my last sentence to read "As far as we know it was the only time it was done by Federal troops in the East during the war." :mrgreen:

One of the things I like about these forums is that from time to time someone will share information that I'm seeing for the first time, or as the sage said "You learn something new every day."

redpatch
08-03-2006, 10:03 AM
I hear Darrell. Constantly learning.

There is a bit of a controversy (aren't all things related to Gettysburg controversial) as to whether it really happened.

Folks at www.militaryhistoryonline.com or the Gettysburg Discussion Group (www.gdg.org) will blow you away with their knowledge.

Author, Eric Wittenberg hosts a site www.cwdgonline.org that is frequented by great students of the cavalry as well as more sane folks, i.e. ones that like the infantry. (Tried to insert a smiley thing here, but failed miserably)

Have a good one.

Rob Galbraith
63rd P.V.I., Co. C.

RJSamp
08-03-2006, 10:26 AM
Quote:
Also, the 69th New York apparently tried it, also without much success. It was the only time it was done during the war.

Regular3

Unless you believe the accounts regarding Lane's Brigade on July 1 who formed a square in response to Gamble's feints.

Rob Galbraith
_________________________
Darrell may have meant the only time square was formed by the regulars....their are something like 7 instances of a battalion square being formed /or starting to be formed......during the ACW.

Don't have my 2nd Wisconsin books on me....but I thought they formed square at both 1st AND 2nd Bull run during the retreats.....2nd for sure in the gloaming on the road just to the north of HHH (Warrenton Turnpike??).

Lane paused and refused his right flank....may have even been pulling it back on itself (3 sided square) in response to Gamble's carbine fire from rear and flank enfilade and several mounted squadrons drawing saber and 'beginning' to charge (that would be a walk).

WILDER was thinking about forming a brigade square at Chickamauga....and simply Repeater Rifling his way to Snodgrass hill with his Ammo Wagons and any horses in the middle.....

Anyone have some old SPI magazines lying around from the 1970's this was researched and discussed in detail for the GBACW regimental combat series of games (Terrible Swift Sword, Bloody April, et al)..... (for you young'uns SPI would be a wargaming company like Avalon Hill).

dustyswb
08-03-2006, 11:06 AM
Darrell and others, thanks

Dignann
08-03-2006, 01:09 PM
Unless you believe the accounts regarding Lane's Brigade on July 1 who formed a square in response to Gamble's feints.
Likewise, an officer in the 14th NC claims that Ramseur's Brigade formed a square upon coming into contact with the 12th Corps on May 1 at Chancellorsville.

Eric

creel
08-03-2006, 01:23 PM
those are some great shots!

Rob Weaver
08-03-2006, 03:12 PM
These remind me of one of the other reasons we keep going to Cedar Creek - the scenery is breathtaking!

Rob Weaver
Pine River Boys
Co I, 7th Wisconsin

cookiemom
08-03-2006, 06:48 PM
A couple but Its hard to make me out. I'll look again.
You're right. We'd never have recognized you, But it still looks like fun!

Carole

redpatch
08-04-2006, 08:44 AM
Lane paused and refused his right flank....may have even been pulling it back on itself (3 sided square) in response to Gamble's carbine fire from rear and flank enfilade and several mounted squadrons drawing saber and 'beginning' to charge (that would be a walk).

.

That's right, RJ, at least if you are referring to when Pender's Divsion was advancing and started pushing Biddle's and Meredith's Brigades off of McPherson's Ridge and out of Herbst's Woods.

I am told, though I have not seen it, that the 52nd NC's regimental history states that they formed a square EARLIER in the day.

Chris Army, who has researched this and is a published author regarding Pender's division on July 1 states that a square was formed between 0 and 4 times that day, depending on the sources and who you want to believe. Just another Gettysburg controversy.

Have a good one,

Rob Galbraith
63rd P.V.I., Co. C.

hiplainsyank
08-04-2006, 11:55 PM
Wasn't there also a hollow square formed by one of the Union units at Lexington, MO?

And I also believe that one was formed during Olustee, but I cannot remember which side, let alone the unit.

Doug Cooper
08-05-2006, 07:23 AM
Good photos - outstanding camera work. It was great to see photos of the 11th NY, Marines, 4th VA, 69th NY, 2nd Rhode Island, some Mississippi troops (11th?), the LA Tigers and a lot of folks trying hard to capture the 1st Bull Run impressions. I thought we had finally put to bed the notion that the regulars wore their dress uniforms including shoulder scales in the July heat, but I guess it lives on. The mini-vans parked in the camp are a nice touch, as were the mini-cannons on the field - oops.

Not so good to see such small numbers with 8000 supposedly registered.

What a beautiful day in a beautiful place. Thanks for sharing.

roundshot
08-05-2006, 08:45 AM
The mini-cannons, as you style them, were supposedly the Dahlgren boat howitzers carried into the action by the 71st NYSM, alongside the 2nd RIV. I was at the 125th in 1986 and these were correctly represented as well. Being in the artillery (The West Point Battery, 4 horse drawn 10 pdr. Parrots), these were the only "non scale" pieces I saw anywhere. Generally speaking, modern intrusions were well off to the side and the camps were well spread out. I may not know "good wine," but I know what I like. And I liked this event.

Bob Williams

Regular3
08-05-2006, 08:27 PM
I thought we had finally put to bed the notion that the regulars wore their dress uniforms including shoulder scales in the July heat, but I guess it lives on.
Do you have documented information showing that they wore some other uniform? If so, those of us who do the Regular impression have scoured every source we can think of without sucess to pin it down and if you know something we would love to see it. All we have to go on is the knowledge that (1) that was the regulation uniform in July 1861 and (2) McDowell's circular specifying light marching order.

Unfortunately, we have no video or photographs - or even contemporary drawings or eyewitness accounts of how the battalion of Regulars was dressed, but whether it was dress or discipline, they stood out from the state troops so far that Beauregard recognized them everywhere they moved on the field, and mentioned them several times in his report.

Doug Cooper
08-08-2006, 12:48 AM
Do you have documented information showing that they wore some other uniform? If so, those of us who do the Regular impression have scoured every source we can think of without sucess to pin it down and if you know something we would love to see it. All we have to go on is the knowledge that (1) that was the regulation uniform in July 1861 and (2) McDowell's circular specifying light marching order.

Unfortunately, we have no video or photographs - or even contemporary drawings or eyewitness accounts of how the battalion of Regulars was dressed, but whether it was dress or discipline, they stood out from the state troops so far that Beauregard recognized them everywhere they moved on the field, and mentioned them several times in his report.

Darrell - this came up on the AC about 4 years ago and there are in fact 2 quotes that talk to how they were dressed. I will endeavor to hunt those down. There are no quotes as you state that they were in the dress uniform, especially with scales (!) but absence of info does not make it so of course. Anyway, stay tuned. The regulars distinguished themselves on many fields by how they behaved, drilled, etc...vice what they wore and the contrast at 1st Bull Run must have been obvious to the most casual observer.

Jozar
08-08-2006, 12:43 PM
These are beautiful photo's indeed.

Can anyone please help me identify the following confederate units;

Photo 9, the Confederates with Light Blue battle shirts, Black trousers, and Dark blue Kepi, and the men on the right in green shirts.

Photo 44, The confederate on the right, with the beautiful plastron front shirt ( grey shirt, light blue plastron and cuffs ) Could this be a 2d Virginian ?

Photo 55, The confederates on the left in red shirts, sky blue trousers and white havelocks.

Can anyone tell me what regiments and if possible ehat companys these described above represented ?

Thanks in advance, and best wishes,

Johan Heitzer
The Netherlands

hiplainsyank
08-08-2006, 01:31 PM
These are simply units, many within the Confederates portraying the First (to become Stonewall) Brigade, which are attempting to recreate the fact that many of the various early volunteer companies had uniforms of various sorts. BAttleshirts in particular were believed to have been widely popular. There also was a group poytraying the 33rd VA which was (mostly) wearing blue frock coats. Unfortunately the photographer was shooting a little too far left for many of the shots in which the 33rd VA was.

Hondo
08-08-2006, 02:52 PM
The 47th Virginia had on the light blue battleshirts. I have no idea if they 47th was at Manassas. The green battleshirts was the 51st Virginia. They were not at Manassas and were not portraying any particular unit that was.

Hondo

ley74
08-08-2006, 09:32 PM
The 47th Virginia was serving as artillery along the Potomac from March 1861 to May 1862. Reports are that a chicken and cow were killed in duels with federal gunoats.

The battleshirts were based on one in the MOC collection. I believe a photograph is in EOG.

wilber6150
08-10-2006, 07:47 PM
Hi all,
If you would like to see some more shots here is my link, theres a lot there, the actual battle is about halfway down the list...

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2103764743

thanks
Will

Greg Renault
08-19-2006, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the tidbit, Rob - I wasn't aware of that. So I amend my last sentence to read "As far as we know it was the only time it was done by Federal troops in the East during the war." :mrgreen:

I believe on the Weldon RR also.

Greg Renault

sbl
08-20-2006, 11:20 AM
Folks I came in kinda late on this conversation. I found some references in the ORs which I hope are of interest.

O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 8 [S# 8]
MARCH 6-8, 1862.--Battle of Pea Ridge, or Elkhorn Tavern, Ark.
No. 8. -- Report of Col. Nicholas Greusel, Thirty-sixth Illinois Infantry, commanding Second Brigade, First Division.
5 R R---VOL VIIIť <ar8_226>
HEADQUARTERS SECOND BRIGADE, FIRST DIVISION,
Camp at Rose Hill, Ark'., March 12, 1862.
"..... These shells dispersed them. After this I threw out Companies B and G of the Thirty-sixth Illinois Volunteers--Company B to skirmish and Company G to cover. These companies soon discovered three regiments of the enemy's infantry lying in ambush and one formed in square, whom they engaged for about fifteen minutes, retiring in good order, but with the loss of 20 wounded--13 in Company G and 7 in Company B."


O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME X/1 [S# 10]
April 6-7, 1862..--Battle of Pittsburg Landing, or Shiloh, Tenn.
No. 190. -- Report of Brig. Gen. Jones M. Withers, C. S. Army, Commanding Second Division.
ar10_532>
HEADQUARTERS WITHERS' DIVISION,
Camp, near Tupelo, Miss., June 20, 1862.
"....Learning that the enemy were in force in front of General Chalmers, whose brigade extended to the right of our attacking line, he was ordered forward to attack them. This he did promptly, gallantly, and successfully. Moving forward, we passed the first camp, from which the enemy had been driven, and came up with Gladden's brigade, formed in square, and under command of Col. D. W. Adams, First Louisiana Infantry--General Gladden having been dangerously, and, as the result unfortunately proved, mortally wounded...."


O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XI/1 [S# 12]
MAY 5, 1862.--Battle of Williamsburg, Va.
No. 49. -- Report of Brig. Gen. Winfield S. Hancock, U.S. Army, commanding First Brigade.
ar12_533 con't]
CAMP NEAR ELTHAM, VA.,
May 11, 1862.


"...The Fifth Wisconsin Volunteers, which was on the right of the battery, on first seeing the enemy's cavalry debouch from the woods had formed square to repel an assault. This cavalry, after great persistence, having been checked by our skirmishers and artillery, and a brigade of the enemy's infantry having broken through the woods and commenced deployment, I directed the Fifth Wisconsin Volunteers to fall back in line of battle, fighting. ..."

O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XXXI/1 [S# 54]
OCTOBER 20--29, 1863.--Operations on the Memphis and Charleston Railroad.
No. 5. --Report of Col. George A. Stone, Twenty-fifth Iowa Infantry, of skirmishes October 26-27.
ar54_24 con't]
HEADQUARTERS TWENTY-FIFTH IOWA INFANTRY,
Bridgeport, Ala., December 19, 1863

"....About 2 miles from camp we met the enemy's skirmishers, and here formed our line of battle, the First Brigade on the right and the Second on the left, with one of the other divisions of our corps as reserve. My position was on the extreme left, and, in accordance with orders, I formed a square to repel cavalry, first, however, having covered my front properly with skirmishers. Our skirmishers pushed the enemy so vigorously and our lines followed so promptly that after a short resistance he fell back to another position some 4 miles to his rear, and made another stand. The same disposition was again made by our division, the same sharp, short fighting, with the same result--the hasty retreat of the enemy...."





O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XVI/1 [S# 22]
JULY 13, 1862.--Action at and surrender of Murfreesborough, Tenn.
No. 10.--Report of Col. John F. Miller, Twenty-ninth Indiana Infantry, commanding at Nashville.

ar22_808 con't]
NASHVILLE, July 19, 1862--12 p.m.


"...GENERAL: Statements of prisoners and others establish these facts: Complete surprise of the Ninth Michigan and cavalry at about 4 a.m. Enemy attacked Michigan camp and provost guard in town simultaneously, approaching in two directions between roads; no grand guard; pickets only in roads; Michigan troops in discord; men killed in tents attempting to form square; Colonel Duffield wounded; failed to form, and surrendered. ...."



O.R.--SERIES I--VOLUME XLII/1 [S# 87]
AUGUST 1-DECEMBER 31, 1864.--The Richmond (Virginia) Campaign.
No. 330.--Report of Col. Alonzo G. Draper, Thirty-sixth U.S. Colored Troops, commanding Third Division, of operations October 27.

ar87_814 con't]
HDQRS. THIRD DIVISION, EIGHTEENTH ARMY CORPS,

"...The brigade advanced a little farther, when a column of rebel cavalry was discovered, estimated by Lieutenant-Colonel Chamberlain to be about 1,500 or 2,000 strong. Colonel Holman then ordered the Thirty-seventh to form square, as he apprehended that the cavalry were about to charge. Shortly after he gave Lieutenant-Colonel Chamberlain to understand that he intended to charge with the First and Twenty-second.
In the Field, Va., October 30, 1864...."

Regular3
08-20-2006, 01:51 PM
Great stuff. Another misperception laid to rest ... And if it comes up again at the 150th I'll be happy to help tamp down the talk of "it was the only time ..." when we now know it wasn't.

Now, if somebody could just come up with a good account of how the Regulars were dressed ... :mrgreen: