Learning Cursive writing... Argggg

[mravery]

Hello all,

As part of my impression, I am attempting to perfect my handwriting. This is not an easy task for a couple of reasons.

1) Left handed, trying to learn to use my right hand as dip pens don't work well with my left.

2) Atrocious handwriting. I've been told it looks like a doctors (result from years of needing to write fast).

3) have not used cursive since about 3rd grade!. Trying to learn the letters all over again.

The question I have is since I am learning all over again, what is the proper style for the period? I have found some info on the Spencerian style and am curious if this was the main format or if there were also others.

Also, any other suggestions greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Mark

[bob 125th nysvi]

question would be what makes you think anybody writing back then was any neater than now?

I don't think you will find a correct "style" persay for the period as in 'one size fits all everywhere' but you might be able to identify a style that was used in your region at the time period.

Hit up your local historical society and see if they have any handwritten documents from local people from the period and then try to copy that one.

Another option (and I know this sounds crazy but) if you have a bank in town that goes back to the period, they may, just may have ledgers that go back to the same time period. I worked for a bank that took over a local bank and in the basement I found the original ledgers for the bank and they went back to the 1850s. It is a VERY long shot but banks have been known to be packrats.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Several quick thoughts. First, make sure you have a pen and ink that will work for you. Try John Neal Bookseller and look at their Spencerian and Copperplate supplies. Try the Gillott 404, EF Principal, or Hunt 22 vintage nibs and McCaffery Penman ink, which is oak gall like the originals. Higgins Eternal ink works, too, but may need some gum arabic added. India Ink won't work at all, a good fountain pen ink will do in a pinch but tends to be runny.

http://www.johnnealbooks.com/


If you learned to write cursive when you were a kid you're ahead of the game. The difference between most period scripts and the Palmer method is that the earlier forms used more elaborate capital letters and the portions of the letters tended to be more distinct. The shorter part of the 'b' or 'h' in Palmer, for example, are about half the height of the letter; they tend to be less in our period. But don't take my word for it, look at period examples. There are many on line. One very good source is the Roy Bird Cook collection, which has a wealth of Confederate letters and documents showing a wide variety of handwriting.


http://www.libraries.wvu.edu/Roy_Cook_JPG/1561_02.01.08/1561_02.01.08.html

http://www.libraries.wvu.edu/Roy_Cook_JPG/1561_02.01.04/imagepages/0051.html

Bob gives very good advice. In looking at period documents you will find a wide variety of styles and quality. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, or stop you from trying at all. "Spencerian" is used today as the name of a particular style, but Spencer is principally famous on account of his merchandising. The "style" of 19th century writing is to a very large extent a product of the tools (steel nibs), materials (oak gall ink), and the practical need for a hand that was quick to write and easy to read.

Also, go ahead and write with your left hand. I do. With the oak gall ink and a fine or extra fine nib, the ink dries fairly rapidly and smearing is not really a problem. It will feel more natural, too. Although most instruction books of the time assume that the writer uses their right hand, and instructors used to force lefties to go right-handed well into the 20th century, use your natural hand. Village schoolmasters might not have been so rigorous back then and there were actually left-handed writing competitions during the war for soldiers who had lost their right hands. Garfield was said to be able to write with both hands at once -- Greek and Hebrew.

More people should be doing what you're doing, so I salute you for the effort. I think you'll have fun.

Enjoy!

[huntdaw]

"there were actually left-handed writing competitions during the war for soldiers who had lost their right hands."

Now that sounds interesting! Can you give a little more info about the why and wherefores of these competitions?

[tompritchett]

The question I have is since I am learning all over again, what is the proper style for the period? I have found some info on the Spencerian style and am curious if this was the main format or if there were also others.

Also, any other suggestions greatly appreciated!


I want to remember that some time back, probably a year or two ago, there was a discussion on the forum about either a school teacher impression or an impression of schooling being done in the camps for soldiers who wanted to improve their reading and writing skills. During this thread, there were some actual period handwriting books which were named and apparently were available in some form even today. Does anyone else remember this thread and anything about the books themselves?

[bsbaker]

If you have an ancestry.com account or the like, get on and look at the census records from a region in the period. Maybe that would be a good start for an idea.

[Pvt Schnapps]

"there were actually left-handed writing competitions during the war for soldiers who had lost their right hands."

Now that sounds interesting! Can you give a little more info about the why and wherefores of these competitions?

As soon as you asked for a source I realized I'd completely forgotten where I saw that. But I did some checking and found an old link to the LOC site's collection of William Oland Bourne's papers:

http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/ndlpcoop/nhihtml/cwnyhsarcm.html

These include a flyer for such a contest (hope the link works):

http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=cwnyhsaf&fileName=af01/af01002/af01002page.db&recNum=0&itemLink=r?ammem/cwnyhs:@field(DOCID+@LIT(af01002))&linkText4

I seem to remember seeing several such ads but that's the only reference I could find relatively quickly.

"Union Soldiers and the Northern Home Front", by Paul Alan Cimbala, 2002, (excerpts on Google Books) also has references to postwar contests for amputees.

[Harold Adams]

Mark;
Recently I picked up a book at the local bookstore called "The Soldiers Pen; Firsthand impressions of the Civil War" by Robert E. Bonner.
I must say, fascinating book, well written with quite a few images of original CW letters from soldiers to loved ones at home. As well as some excellent pictures both humerous and serious drawn by both sides from the field.
If you can find this book, buy it.
A few years back I started to practice and improve my handwritting doing a more 19th Spencerian style. I even purchase some fonts for my computer; Houston Pen and Schooner Script, copying those free hand. My name signature now looks alot better than it used to. I also prefer to handwrite everything, with a fountain pen.
I wish you success on your endeavor to improve your handwriting.;)
Kindest Regards;

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

http://www.oldfonts.com/houstonpen.html

[Evil Dog]

Yes... I recently purchased an item from Harold and was very impressed with the handwritten note that he included with it. I wish my handwriting was that (for lack of a better term) pretty. Well worth the effort he put in to improvement.

[Harold Adams]

Bruce;
Thanks for the compliment. Hope all is well in California.
Kindest Regards;

[Rob]

Mott Media - Theory of Spencerian Penmanship

http://www.mottmedia.com/pages/publications.asp?Pub=spencer

[Rob]

Zanerian - Promoting the Art of Ornamental Penmanship

http://www.zanerian.com/

[John McClellan]

The best tool I have learned is of course looking at period documents,markings on uniforms,gear and letters. The best thing I dId was to SLOW down the speed that I write which is a huge help. Dont forget the good ole pencil too! I like and have had good results using my carpenter pencil.
Good topic!
John McClellan
Fowlers Battery

[mravery]

Hey Guys,

The info has been great that you all have sent and I'm pleased to see such a response to this thread. This topic is not very 'sexy' as far as reenacting goes (like the Paymaster impression) but it was still an important aspect to the times.

I've been playing with this, this weekend and even have the wife and kids playing along. Funny how writing cursive could be a 'family thing'. All I remember was hating my homework when it was actually taught in grammar school. (yes Mike, I did learn it in grammar school in upstate NY back in the 70's and that's 1970's not 1870's :D )

I've been practicing with a pencil to start and will move to the dip pen as soon as I can master (or at least make them recognizable) the capital letters!

Right hand is coming along nicely. I think I'm already better with it than my left (for this cursive stuff)....... Mike, you mentioned left handed competitions. How can you use a dip pen and 'push' it across a paper without catching the point (and don't say.... "Very carefully" :D )

John, your right, slowing down makes a HUGE difference. Funny how we rush to write today.

Mike, You and I have had conversations before when I first started down this road and you have mentioned the Gall ink. It appears that this can only be bought mail order (as none of the local craft places carry it) so a while back I picked up Calligraphy ink (NOT India) will this work or what problems could I find with it? Also, I'm using linen paper.. is there a better modern paper to use instead?

I have enjoyed looking at the websites that all of you have forwarded showing the period letters. Then it dawned on my this morning and after a little searching I found my Great Grandmothers 'Autographs' book that she had when she was 16 years old (kinda like a school yearbook today) where all of her friends wrote her notes and letters and are dated 1879-1880. What a beautiful representation of different types of handwriting. She was from Jermyn PA.

This has turned out to be a fun exercise and one that I shall continue to practice since I have time on my hands. (now that I've been laid off after 12 years argggg....... Anyone need a Business Analyst :rolleyes: )

Cheers!
Mark

[Pvt Schnapps]

I'm glad you're enjoying this, because it's a part of the impression that most folks avoid but which we can sure use more of.

As far as left handed writing, some pens catch the paper worse than others. Generally, the finer the point, the more of a problem I have. The Gillott's 404 and Hunt 22 work best for me.

Paper matters, too. I find the laid and resume paper to be the snaggiest, followed by linen, but I can work with both and generally use them when printing forms. Fahrney's in D.C. has Clairfontaine writing paper, which is made especially for fountain pens and has a very smooth surface.

Any calligraphy ink should work. I found the oak gall to work best for me, though the quality of batches seems to vary. Plus, it dries quick, which is another consideration for lefties. But I know folks who swear by Higgins and I've had good results with other brands too.

But not India ink. India ink will lead you to conclude that writing with a dip pen is impossible when, with the right tools and materials, it's almost as easy as writing with a fountain pen.

FWIW, I learned my cursive writing from Spanish nuns in Japan around 1960, making me something of a historic relic myself. :)

[mmescher]

Spencerian was one style of writing done at the time of the civil war. Our sutlery, Ragged Soldier Sutlery, sells a series of 5 copy books as well as a theory book. The theory book is post war but tells how to form each letter.

Visit us at raggedsoldier.com and go to Books: 19th century reproductions and go down the listing alphabetically.

Michael Mescher

[just4fun63]

I too have been trying to re-learn to write. It has been a challenge and fun. I found by using a dip pen and a small amount of ink it forced me to slow my writing down.

Just out of interest what writing instrument would have been most likely to be found in the field with the troops, would the average soldier have a quill or a nib pen?

[wmkane]

Just out of interest what writing instrument would have been most likely to be found in the field with the troops, would the average soldier have a quill or a nib pen?

I have been wondering this also, but I think we need to add lead pencils, and slate pencils to the list of possibilities.

So, does anyone have any research done on this topic yet?

[Robert A Mosher]

While researching my journalist impression which is based upon the real Army Correspondent of the Boston Journal, Charles Carleton Coffin, his memoirs made it clear that for taking notes in the field he used pencil and a notebook held in one of those leather covers similar to the one offered by a number of our modern sutlers. I bought one of the leathercovers from Dell's Leatherworks and a lined notedbook the modern cover of which is concealed by the leather cover. I use the unpainted wooden period style pencils though I understand that they do not use the same mix of graphite for the pencil lead.

Robert A. Mosher

[Pvt Schnapps]

I have been wondering this also, but I think we need to add lead pencils, and slate pencils to the list of possibilities.

So, does anyone have any research done on this topic yet?

I once witnessed a wonderful online argument between two very knowledgeable reenactor-researchers, one of whom claimed that most soldiers' letters were written in ink while the other claimed pencil. Both based their arguments on original correspondence, the ink votes coming from Indiana and pencil from, I think, New England. This raises the possibility that troops out west had less access to pencils; it also raises the possibility of being a complete anomaly.

Which is a long way to say, it depends. Here are some things I know, or think, based on several years of study --

Despite the wording of the stationery allowance in the Regulations, steel pens had essentially replaced quills by the start of the war. By 1864, in the headquarters offices of the U.S. War Department, probably no more than a dozen clerks were still using them. There are only so many geese, you can only get a half dozen or so quills from one, and they don't last. The mills of Birmingham and New England were producing vast quantities of steel pens at prices that made them almost disposable.

The army required a substantial amount of paper work, and all official reports, property accounts, and correspondence needed to be done in pen and ink.

Despite this, units on campaign sometimes went short. J. L. Chamberlain complained of a lack of paper in a note to the Adjutant General of Maine in mid-July 1863; in June 1864 E. H. Rhodes notes that he is writing the first letter in ink that he's been able to write in two months.

But generally, when units were in decent supply, supply included stationery. When Grant's army cut its supply lines to cross the Mississippi and attack Vicksburg, the wagons they took carried ammunition, a few days of food, and the company books.

"Traveling" inkwells and telescoping pencases make it possible to write in ink just about anywhere.

Pencils seem to have been more expensive than pens initially (see the stationery allowance in the Regs), but they also seem to have become more widely used in the course of the war. The army issued regular pencils (some headquarters offices preferred Faber) but mechanical pencils (often referred to as "pencil cases" or gold or silver pencils) were not unknown. Theodore Ayrault Dodge used a mechanical pencil with blue leads.

The Confederate army suffered shortages of stationery as well as everything else, but this seems to have been reflected in the use of more hand drawn (rather than pre-printed) forms and the need for NCOs to pay for materiel out of their own pockets.

I haven't seen any references to slate pencils, but that doesn't mean they weren't used.

The most sophisticated writing devices, used by some generals including Grant, were "manifold writers" -- portfolios with carbon paper and a stylus by which the writer could scratch out a message or letter making a record copy at the same time.

Hope this helps. If you want to read more, you can look at the 2007 "School of the Clerk" on the AC forum:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9874

Or drop me a line. I love talking about this stuff. :)

[just4fun63]

Or drop me a line. I love talking about this stuff. :)


My plans are (once I get to where I can write reasonably quick) to make all my notes, orders of the day, guard duty and issuance recordings (ammo call ect...) in handwriting with period stationary and pens. I think this would add to authenticy of the event.

All that said I'm thinking of getting a ledger/notebook, some pens and some thing to write on.

What kind of pens would be correct wood, glass?? how about a field desk? glass or metal ink wells

What do you folks think

[vmescher]

My plans are (once I get to where I can write reasonably quick) to make all my notes, orders of the day, guard duty and issuance recordings (ammo call ect...) in handwriting with period stationary and pens. I think this would add to authenticy of the event.

All that said I'm thinking of getting a ledger/notebook, some pens and some thing to write on.

What kind of pens would be correct wood, glass?? how about a field desk? glass or metal ink wells

What do you folks think

I wish you well in working on you handwriting. A good consistent hand is fairly easy to obtain as long as you practice, practice and practice some more. That is why I like the copybooks for first learning how to write in a period hand. I took calligraphy for a number of years and that is how we learned to write in the simple and more complicated hands. I have pages and pages of pen strokes before I started forming any letters at all. A word of advice, it is easier to learn a period hand if you start out with a pencil and learn the letter formation and then lean how to apply pressure to form the thicks and thins. That way you hand has memory in forming the letters and you don't have to think about it.

There are a number of types of inkwells and it is an area that I have not studied but I'm sure that someone will have information for you.

About you question on glass pens. I have never seen any evidence that glass pens were used in our period. Find a good, plain pen holder and the correct pen nib and you should be all set after you have mastered the handwriting.

[M E Wolf]

Dear Mravery;

Sir, I recommend this site:

Scriveners Mess

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ScrivenersMess/photos/album/0/list

This site is dedicated to re-enactors/living historians for the character to which you may portray.

A good handwriting site/calligraphy site, I enjoy:
www.iampeth.com

Sample of General U. S. Grant's commission can be viewed at:
http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mcc/017/0001.jpg

Sample of General Longstreet, Col. E. P. Alexander's exchange in regard to artillery prelude to Pickett's Charge: (got to remember, Longstreet was horseback writing in his order book)
http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mcc/001/0001.gif

The Fountain Pen Network is also a great resource for those who write with dip and fountain pens.

www.fountainpennetwork.com/

Penmanship forum can address the actual handwritinng issues you might have.
----------------
In regard to General O. O. Howard and Left Handed handwriting:
http://memory.loc.gov/learn/collections/treasures/thinking4.html

At the end of the Civil War, William Oland Bourne, a New York social reformer, author, and editor, organized a “Left-hand Penmanship Contest.” Read the flyer calling for specimens of left-handed penmanship and the supporting letter from General O. O. Howard, who had his arm amputated at the battle of Fair Oaks. Other ranking military officers lent their support to Bourne’s philanthropy, including Brigadier General Joseph Hooker, who agreed to “pass judgment on the manuscripts.” Find and read some of the letters from veterans who submitted handwriting samples.

By the 'advertisement' there are links that one may like to look at.


http://www.wildwestweb.net/cwdocs/cwdocuments.html

Has several samples of handwritten works, to include General Lee's farewell in his handwriting.

Using: memory.loc.gov ; go to War, Military, then type in a search name - General Gibbons for example, has pages of a court-martial. The Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress
Series 1. General Correspondence. 1833-1916.
Falmouth Virginia Army Court Martial, Friday, May 08, 1863 (Court martial proceedings against W. H. Hudson; with copy of charges made by General John Gibbon)

Explore!



Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf

[Pvt Schnapps]

My plans are (once I get to where I can write reasonably quick) to make all my notes, orders of the day, guard duty and issuance recordings (ammo call ect...) in handwriting with period stationary and pens. I think this would add to authenticy of the event.

All that said I'm thinking of getting a ledger/notebook, some pens and some thing to write on.

What kind of pens would be correct wood, glass?? how about a field desk? glass or metal ink wells

What do you folks think

I don't know if you learned cursive writing in school, but if you did you're at least 80% of the way. If you look at the Roy Bird Cook site I referred to earlier you'll find a variety of images of original Confederate documents displaying a variety of styles and qualities of penmanship. The letters and orders are especially interesting in having samples of documents hastily done by soldiers in the field, which is what you seem to be focusing on.

For your role it's probably just as important to know something of the different kinds of property you'd help manage and the paperwork involved as penmanship. The "School of the Clerk" explains some of the basics and provides Word and pdf versions of most of the forms used daily (I didn't attempt to reproduce oversized forms like pay rolls and monthly and quarterly reports).

For material, I second what Ms. Mescher said about glass pens. I'll add that paper with a high rag content works best in the field in that it resists humidity better than printer paper (but any paper in the field is more authentic than no paper for paperwork).

A nice touch -- if you have a paper cutter or some time -- is to trim your paper to a period size. Most letter paper seems to have been 8 by 10 or 7 3/4 by 9 3/4 though the Regs seem to envision a size of 8 by 10 1/2 (which was the size of standard government letter paper up to the 80s -- the 1980s). "Foolscap" by this time, at least in the army, refers to a size rather than a quality -- it ranges from around 7 3/4 by 12 to legal size. Note paper is half the size of letter.

Don't do what I did and use a screw-top tin oil can for your first inkwell -- after a few months the ink rusted right through the metal. Sullivan has a ceramic inkwell. Dixie Gun Works has a traveling inkwell of brass with a glass insert that's overpriced and requires some modification before it can actually be used, but I feel more comfortable using it at a campaign event than an original. That said, a variety of originals can be found if you're willing to spend the time antiquing or cruising e-bay and they're certainly nice to have for a living history or less intense event.

For notebooks or journals I would actually start with Staples or the stationery section of a bookstore and look for something that will fit in your pocket, has minimal or no modern markings, and decent quality paper. There's a lot available; some of the smaller ones will fit nicely into the leather pocket book holders made by Dell leathers.

Field desks are a whole other subject. Reproducing a company desk made cheaply at the time involves more skilled labor than one might at first think. I have a crude knock-off I made for stationary events, but more typically use a letter size portfolio I purchased at the local art supply store.

Hope this helps. Enjoy!

[mmescher]

Regarding the question about slate pencils:

Slate pencils are made of cut slate and are meant for writing on a school slate. Slate steaks a very light color on a hard surface. However, on paper they would just slide over the surface. All you would get from a slate pencil is an indentation -- imagine a ballpoint pen without ink.

Speaking of things to use on slates, modern chalk like you purchase at any school supply department didn't exist at the time. Even though we have seen it sold at a historic site that should know better (the site was even going to the point of taking it out of the manufacturer's box and putting it in one printed with their name), period chalk was chalk, i.e., calcium carbonate. And for small slates, besides the historical element, you can see the benefit of using a slate pencil. A sharp slate pencil gives a very fine line while a piece of chalk makes a very wide line. Kind of analogous to doing things on a piece of paper using a pen or pencil versus the fattest part of a magic marker.

To find slate pencils, we usually carry them on our website. However, our supplier is out of stock and won't be getting their next delivery until mid-May. We are down to fewer than 10 so we will be out of stock soon.

[FWL]

I am not really a student of 19th century writing, like Dr. Schnapps, but I have had the privilege to transcribe several letters into modern word text of a 17-18 year old company clerk from a Massachusetts Regiment (forget the unit, 37th maybe, but he was with Sheridan in the Valley in 1864-65). Reading those letters gave me a good idea of what a 19th century writing style looks like from an educated Union Army Private. He was selected as Regimental Clerk because of his young age and because of his penmanship. Name was Ferdi Steele. For those in Mass, Steele Square in Somerville is named after him.

I have been asked several times by my wife and by others to write letters in cursive for reenactments because my style is closest to some of the period letters as compared to others schooled in the 1950-1960s. I have always wondered why. BTW in the 50s and early 60s I was taught cursive by French nuns in Vietnam and the Philippines I don't known if that had anything to do with it.

When I write a letter in a period style what I have learned to do is to tighten up on the script (do not write large) and to write slowly. My recreated letters came out pretty well.

Regards

[M E Wolf]

Dear Mravery;

Should you wish to carry a modern fountain pen with a flexible nib, to continue writing in the manner you may do in your re-enacting; I recommend the Namaki Brand fountain pen; the style Falcon - superior flex fine nib. Namaki's nibs run a little broader than other fountain pens, so fine point nib would be like a medium. It can use cartridge as well as ink converter, to which I use as I use bottle ink

A Stationary Store should help you obtain this fountain pen directly, off the counter purchase.

I do know Fahrney's Pens in Washington, DC carries them as well as Richard Binder.

Web site for Fahrney's Pens is:
www.fahrneyspens.com/

Richard Binder (to whom restores vintage fountain pens, sells customized nibs; is in New Hampshire and perhaps closest to you but, he does not have a 'store' to shop in per se. If you do want a flexible nib, the nib point that of the Civil War period; I recommend you order a Pelikan M200 with full flex nib and xxfp or xxxfp nib (xxfp = extra, extra fine point: xxxfp = extra, extra, extra fine point nib).

His web site is: www.richardspens.com

I use Noodler's Bullet Proof Black ink in both the Namaki Falcon fountain pen and for dip pens. This ink is American made and also made to thwart anti-fraud attempts. It is thicker than most bottled inks, e.g. Parker, Waterman, etc. So, if you don't write often with the fountain pen as in writing checks, etc., flush and use room temperature water until no black, and leave it un-capped to dry. And, should you buy a bottle of Noodler's Ink, beware--the bottle is full to the edge of the cap. No space is wasted so be careful to keep the bottle upright and perhaps somewhere away from rugs and valued tablecloths.

Noodler's Ink web site is:
www.noodlersink.com/

That said, I wish to call attention to the Appomattox Surrender Document at the National Archives:
Web site reference: http://www.archives.gov/historical-docs/todays-doc/index.html?dod-date=409

Please take note of General Longstreet's signature.

This is after General Longstreet's wounding at the second battle in the Wilderness, where he was shot and his right arm paralized. General Longstreet forced himself to write both with his right and left and would gain back some ability to write with his right hand.

From Manassas to Appotamox (Longstreet)
Appendix.—Letters Of General Robert E. Lee And General Longstreet.
Lee to Longstreet congratulating him on his Convalescence and anticipating Return.
CAMP PETERSBURG, August 29, 1864.
GENERAL Z. LONGSTREET:
Lee to Longstreet congratulating him on his Convalescence and anticipating Return.
CAMP PETERSBURG, August 29, 1864.
GENERAL Z. LONGSTREET:
MY DEAR GENERAL,—I received yesterday your letter of the 23d, and am much gratified at your improvement. You will soon be as well as ever, and we shall all be rejoiced at your return. You must not, however, become impatient at the gradual progress you must necessarily make, but be content with the steady advance you are making to health and strength. Your progress will be the more certain and your recovery more confirmed. Do not let Sherman capture you, and I will endeavor to hold Grant till you come. I am glad to hear such good accounts of my little namesake. Good lungs are a great blessing, and nothing expands them better than a frill, hearty yell. I hope Mrs. Longstreet is well, and that she is enjoying the good peaches and melons of Georgia. We have but little enjoyment here. Our enemy is very cautious, and he has become so proficient in intrenching that he seems to march with a system already prepared. He threatens dreadful things every day, but, thank God, he has not expunged us yet.
All your army friends inquire for you anxiously, and will be delighted to hear of your improvement. We shall not object to your chirography, so you must practise it often, and let me hear of your progress and well-doing. Please present my kindest regards to Mrs. Longstreet, and love to my namesake. The gentlemen of my staff are very grateful for your remembrance, and unite with me in sincere wishes for your welfare and happiness. I am sure the rest of this army would join did they know of the opportunity.
With great regard, very truly yours,
R. E. LEE.



Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf

[Pvt Schnapps]

I am not really a student of 19th century writing, like Dr. Schnapps, but I have had the privilege to transcribe several letters into modern word text of a 17-18 year old company clerk from a Massachusetts Regiment (forget the unit, 37th maybe, but he was with Sheridan in the Valley in 1864-65). Reading those letters gave me a good idea of what a 19th century writing style looks like from an educated Union Army Private. He was selected as Regimental Clerk because of his young age and because of his penmanship. Name was Ferdi Steele. For those in Mass, Steele Square in Somerville is named after him.

I have been asked several times by my wife and by others to write letters in cursive for reenactments because my style is closest to some of the period letters as compared to others schooled in the 1950-1960s. I have always wondered why. BTW in the 50s and early 60s I was taught cursive by French nuns in Vietnam and the Philippines I don't known if that had anything to do with it.

When I write a letter in a period style what I have learned to do is to tighten up on the script (do not write large) and to write slowly. My recreated letters came out pretty well.

Regards

Got to hand it to those nuns -- I learned from Spanish ones in Japan at about the same time. Someday someone will write a treatise on the contributions of the postwar Papal Chancellery to reenacting clerks... well, maybe not :)

You know, Frank, I know someone who would love to get their hands on a company clerk's journal...

[mravery]

Hey Guys,

The response to this thread has been great, better that I thought it would!

I appreciate all the suggestions and the links to additional info.....

Also.. for those of you who have not read it, I strongly recommend Mike's School of the Clerk.... It's very good!

Cheers
Mark

[just4fun63]

I don't know if you learned cursive writing in school, but if you did you're at least 80% of the way. If you look at the Roy Bird Cook site I referred to earlier you'll find a variety of images of original Confederate documents displaying a variety of styles and qualities of penmanship. Hope this helps. Enjoy!

I did learn cursive in school and hated every minute of it!:mad: It's funny how things you learned and thought were useless come around later to be helpful. I once got out of trouble at work by pointing out that the policy I was accused of violating was punctuated incorrectly. (Dependant vs. independent clauses).

Now I find a new use for cursive writing. I just need to get a hand on the flourishes and fancy capital letters. It is a challenge as my work requires only block printing or typing.

I looked at the site you mentioned and I think I am close to some of those samples, but still to slow.

[Robert A Mosher]

One of the few things I remember that I learned in my undergraduate education courses was that at the age American schools were teaching penmanship, the bones in boys' hands had not yet knitted together - but that girls were more physically advanced at that age and the bones in their hands had. The outcome apparently was that boys were trying to learn the discipline of cursive writing using a hand that was figuratively a jellyfish while girls hands gave them the really fine motor control necessary to really learn handwriting.

Robert A. Mosher

[Pvt Schnapps]

One of the few things I remember that I learned in my undergraduate education courses was that at the age American schools were teaching penmanship, the bones in boys' hands had not yet knitted together - but that girls were more physically advanced at that age and the bones in their hands had. The outcome apparently was that boys were trying to learn the discipline of cursive writing using a hand that was figuratively a jellyfish while girls hands gave them the really fine motor control necessary to really learn handwriting.

Robert A. Mosher

So where were you when I was trying to explain this to Sister Maria Theresa in the first grade...?

[Danny]

So where were you when I was trying to explain this to Sister Maria Theresa in the first grade...?

And did you also explain just how one of Ruthie Warner's pig tails ended up dipped into the ink well of your desk?...

Dan Wykes

[Pvt Schnapps]

And did you also explain just how one of Ruthie Warner's pig tails ended up dipped into the ink well of your desk?...

Dan Wykes

In Sancta Maria school in Yokohama in 1960, we actually had the old wood and iron desks where the chairs were integral with the desk behind. But the inkwells were no longer used and, while the classes combined Japanese and foreign boys, the girls were in a different room altogether.

Some people say you're only as old as you feel. While most of the time I think I'm still in my twenties, memories like that tend to bring me closer to my second century mark. :)

[vmescher]

Now I find a new use for cursive writing. I just need to get a hand on the flourishes and fancy capital letters. It is a challenge as my work requires only block printing or typing.



I've looked at many samples of period handwriting in transcribing ledgers (from all over the country) and have seen very little indication that the fancy flourishes and the extreme thicks and thins of the elaborate capital letters in everyday handwriting. The more elaborate handwriting was reserved for certificates and similar invitations.

If you just master a good hand using the Spencerian copy books or theory books you will do just fine without the the fancy stuff, unless you plan on doing certificates. Then you will need to learn the art (and art it is) of being about to draw the flourishes, animals, and everything else that is included in that area of 19th century calligraphy.

[FWL]

In Sancta Maria school in Yokohama in 1960, we actually had the old wood and iron desks where the chairs were integral with the desk behind. But the inkwells were no longer used and, while the classes combined Japanese and foreign boys, the girls were in a different room altogether.

Some people say you're only as old as you feel. While most of the time I think I'm still in my twenties, memories like that tend to bring me closer to my second century mark. :)

Ok Dr. Schnapps as long as you showed me yours I'll show you mine.

In Vietnam in 1960-61 we had school in metal half moon Quonset huts. When the monsoons came we got out of school because the pounding was so loud you could not hear anything. If you had bad penmanship when writing cursive the French Nuns would make you pull down your pants (leave the underwear on) an sit in the corner emptying pencil sharpeners after getting a couple of spanks on your arse. In Vietnam as a young lad I got malaria, hepatitis, a hernia, had my tonsils taken out twice and got a very close look at French string bikini which resulted in a slap to the head (that felt good). This experience left me permanently damaged so I took up civil war reenacting. After I left Vietnam they had a war, but that’s another story and I take no responsibility for that. BTW when I got back to the states in 63 I visited Gettysburg for the first time never forgot it.

And that’s what I know about that.

Regards

[Pvt Schnapps]

I've looked at many samples of period handwriting in transcribing ledgers (from all over the country) and have seen very little indication that the fancy flourishes and the extreme thicks and thins of the elaborate capital letters in everyday handwriting. The more elaborate handwriting was reserved for certificates and similar invitations.

If you just master a good hand using the Spencerian copy books or theory books you will do just fine without the the fancy stuff, unless you plan on doing certificates. Then you will need to learn the art (and art it is) of being about to draw the flourishes, animals, and everything else that is included in that area of 19th century calligraphy.

Just to reinforce that, I found the following passage in the 1870 "Instructions for Keeping the Records and Transacting the Clerical Business of the War Department":

"Handwriting in record books and on official papers should be plain and of good size, flourishing and ornamental writing being especially avoided and forbidden."

There was a place for fancy penmanship at the time, but it wasn't in the bureaucracy. :)

My experience with the tools of the time, such as it is, leads me to believe that much of the attractiveness of ordinary penmanship of the period is a natural consequence of using a steel dip pen and a style of writing designed for clarity and speed.

On the other hand [digression alert!] another problem that comes up after you learn how to write is the fact that many people seem no longer used to reading cursive writing. In doing written orders at an event I've picked up the habit of reading or explaining the key parts to the recipients so there's no confusion. It's not that I have a particularly bad hand -- it's just that most people don't need to read cursive writing in their daily lives.

[mravery]

Hey Mike,

To go along with the 'no one can read cursive' comment, I noticed this past weekend at Crystal River that out of about 20 guys (for paycall) only about 5 knew how to hold the dip pen (most held it upside down). I spent as much time showing them how to hold it than I did paying them. I also had a pencil on hand just for the ones that did not get it at all.

I think it would be a great idea to have short classes at the reenactments for teaching the guys how to use the writing instruments of the time. Not sure how many guys would actually show an interest in learning but might make for some fun times.

What think you all ;)

Cheers
Mark

[Pvt Schnapps]

Hey Mike,

To go along with the 'no one can read cursive' comment, I noticed this past weekend at Crystal River that out of about 20 guys (for paycall) only about 5 knew how to hold the dip pen (most held it upside down). I spent as much time showing them how to hold it than I did paying them. I also had a pencil on hand just for the ones that did not get it at all.

I think it would be a great idea to have short classes at the reenactments for teaching the guys how to use the writing instruments of the time. Not sure how many guys would actually show an interest in learning but might make for some fun times.

What think you all ;)

Cheers
Mark

We could all use more schooling, the question is when. I think that at battle reenactments the military personnel should probably devote most of their free time to drilling and military duties that might not get enough attention between events, when the company isn't together. But if they have enough down time outside that, sure.

"Camps of Instruction" though, might provide a better opportunity. It makes sense if the hours of physical drill are interspersed with classroom (or sit-down-in-the-open-field) instruction on several things. I'd really like to see a whole "civilian life skills" session that would include several talents, including writing and, say, sock darning. Units without civilians skilled in these areas should probably cast around for local "authentic" civilian groups and see who's willing to be a guest lecturer.

One venue for teaching each other that may be under-used is the typical "SOYA" living history. Sitting around between firing demos is a great time to show each other how to write, how to polish brass with fire ash, how to cook coffee, and other little tasks that some have mastered but most have not, and that in and of themselves would be entertaining to any spectators who happen to wander by.

Your observation about reenactors and dip pens applies to spectators, too. If I'm portraying a clerk at a living history I often ask people for their passes and then offer to fill one out for them -- I may press for an oath of allegiance, too. The fun comes when I ask them to sign the receipt register or oath and hand them the pen. I've never had anyone refuse, though some have had a bit of trouble getting started. [Note: if you do this, make sure to bring some extra nibs :)]

[Viceroy]

http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese/Alphabet.htm

I use this for of writing. This is suetterlinschrift. It is a standardized formof an earlier German alphabet. It was standardized and taught in German schools around 1914, I believe. So if you use this form of writing and screw up a few of the letters, you can argue that you did not screw up because there are no standards! Sutterlin looks beautiful when written by a fountain pen, etc. I practiced writing the alphabet in my notebook margins during booring college math classes.

Hope this helps.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Sutterlin was born in 1865, so what you have there is actually a modernized form of the old German cursive, which looks more like this: http://wapedia.mobi/en/Kurrent The "Kurrent" style was taught at least till the early 20th century, and is the one presented in a little grammar my father got from his father, published in Chicago in 1904.

As a practical matter, unless you're a German writing home to another German, I think you would want to use a more common hand. As mentioned earlier, many people today seem to find that hard enough to read. :)

[Viceroy]

The guys I deal with in, and out, of my group can read/write sutterlin, so it works great for us. I also use it in my duty book, which I put on display. We use sutterlin because it is so similar to the alphabet that you posted, but more standardized. So other people who have studied it independently can follow along.

The part that always confuses me is when to use which form of the lower case "s." I usually tend to use the swirly one for "s" at the end of words, and the verticle "s" to replace two in the middle of words. Never could find the rules for that.

I agree, common letters work best.

[hanktrent]

I guess maybe I'm not understanding the reasoning behind using Suetterlinschrift for reenacting. Are you portraying someone who was educated in Germany or in a German school in America? I guess that would at least explain trying to use German handwriting, even if it's a 20th century one.

The part that always confuses me is when to use which form of the lower case "s." I usually tend to use the swirly one for "s" at the end of words, and the verticle "s" to replace two in the middle of words. Never could find the rules for that.

In the paragraph above, if you're talking about rules for when to use the English "long s," there's a good discussion about them here (http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2006/06/rules-for-long-s.html)(scroll down a little). Or are you talking about the German Eszett?

As far as who used the "long s" in America in the 1860s, my guess is that it would be far more common in people middle-aged or older, and perhaps in very formal writing by well-trained young people, but I haven't really studied the demographics of it. It seems like most people didn't use it, though there are enough examples of some people who did. Anybody got ideas on the demographics?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Viceroy]

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Kurrent

If you look at the lower case "s" you will see that there are two of them. That article gave me some ideas, thanks Hank! I will look to see placement in relation to other letters and placement within the word itself. Nice.


There is very little differences, if any, between Sutterlin and Kurrent. So this is a Civil War period form of writing. If you look at period handwriting of German writers, who wrote this way, it is very common to find variations of different characters, much that we would see with any Americans writing english today. Claiming a difference bw Schrifts is trivial. Sutterlin is a more contemporary name for the thing.


My friends and I do it to keep our culture alive. Its is all for fun. :D

[Artyman]

It wasn't just the writing that was elegant but also the words and prose. Even the poorest educated did the best they could to add art and color to a letter merely with words. A good example of this would be the words to the song "Lorina". Letters were written everyday that read just like it.

Harry

[DulcimerPlayer]

This comes from a young mans diary that was a university student in Arkansas, he later founded a private college in Arkansas after the war. His penmanship looks about like mine.lol

http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/45536/2657335590105707334S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2657335590105707334PNcPxO)

[hanktrent]

This comes from a young mans diary that was a university student in Arkansas, he later founded a private college in Arkansas after the war. His penmanship looks about like mine.lol

It's yet another example of something I've noticed that will usually distinguish true period handwriting from a poor modern imitation.

Look at the lower-case "p," for example in "company" in the fourth line on the left page. The straight part of the "p" extends well above the loop. That detail appears in almost all period handwriting that I've seen, whether sloppy or ornate.

Most modern people end the vertical stroke of the "p" just level with the top of the loop, or barely above it.

My grandmother (born 1894) wrote with the high stroke of the "p" but my mother (born 1924) didn't, so I expect the change took place somewhere between their generations.

Edited to add: you can also see another common period thing: hyphenating "to-day" and "to-night." That was something my mother still was taught to do but quit doing as she got older, but I was never taught (born 1959), so it disappeared sometime between those generations.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com