Lee's Surrender? How Many?

[MMurphy]

Just a question here y'all...
We know that the ANV was a hollow shell of itself when those last days in April 65 happened.
All in all, just how many Confederate Troops were surrendered at Appomatox?. I'm not looking for an answer like "The entire ANV", etc...I'm actually looking at how many were actually there when it ended....

I can't seem to find an answer on this...

Thanks...

[PVT.THIB]

About 28,000 according the Google search that took me about 10 seconds.

[MMurphy]

Link please????

[PVT.THIB]

Not that Wiki is a "scholarly source" but it is a good launch point for research..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Appomattox_Courthouse#Aftermath

And here is the general search..
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?query=how+many+confederates+surrendered+at+ Appomattox&s_it=spelling

[Poor Private]

Wiki as far as I am concerned is not a usful tool for documentation. Anyone can update or add bogus imformation to any item pulled. Go ahead try it sometime.

[PVT.THIB]

I suppose thats why I said that it is not a "scholarly source"...Cris I've heard that from my professors about a billion times...i merely demonstrated that the information is easy to come by with little effort.

[PVT.THIB]

This was linked off of the Wiki page...
http://www.nps.gov/history/hps/abpp/battles/va097.htm
Look at the number paroled.

[TheQM]

The OR's would probably give you the number of paroles that were issued to the ANV at Appomatox. That would be the official number.

[Dignann]

The Appomattox Court House NHP website states that 28,231 paroles were issued to Confederates there.

Eric

[Huck Finn]

Well, that was not too shabby. If you can believe NPS Appomattox.

While Wikipedia may not be scholarly, it is a vetted site. Sometime, when you are not looking for a nanosecond answer, check out their contested entries, vetting process and dispute resolution. It is a sight of collected information and wisdom that exists in a challenged environment. Many other public forums would benefit from such a no-BS presentation.

Now, how many peas in a pod?

[CameronsHighlander]

Unknown actual numbers are not recorded.. How many ran to the Blue Ridge, How many stacked arms, How many where with Lee when he left Petersburg, How Many deserted before even getting to Richmond or Appomattox these numbers arent known the best is to probably go with what Appomattox has until a report by Lee shows up.

[dehight]

The OR has an account that says over 28,000 men believedly (yes I made it up) surrendered...so the numbers being thrown around here are close...too bad we won't ever know for sure

[TheQM]

After the War, those Appomattox paroles became badges of honor for those who received them. It was proof the soldier hung in until the bitter end. Roughly half the Confederate soldiers who evacuated Petersburg and Richmond were killed, captured, or deserted during the retreat to Appomattox.

Sort of interesting, the soldiers who were captured at Sailor's Creek, only a couple of days earlier, got sent to Fort Delaware. The boys who made it to Appomattox got sent home!

[Pete K]

Just as a joke one of my former students posted my name as the fifteenth president of the USA on "Wiki". It stood for over a week and had three people post they agreed. Where's my presidential library? It is handy if you want to know who was king of Poland in 1750, or who won an academy award in 1963, but for scholary work, umm, not in my classroom.

[flattop32355]

What may never be known is the difference between how many were present on the day Lee surrendered, and how many stayed until the formal laying down of arms/colors.

Men had been drifting away all along the path from Petersburg to Appomattox, so it wouldn't surprise to find out that a significant number headed out early, particularly those who didn't want to surrender.

If memory serves, did not Grant send Lee 25,000 rations soon after the official signing?

[Danny]

...Men had been drifting away all along the path from Petersburg to Appomattox...

Bernie -

Were there motivations for such behaviour?

Danny

[dehight]

If memory serves, did not Grant send Lee 25,000 rations soon after the official signing?

Indeed...here's from Horace Porter's account on the Official Records

"General Grant had taken great pains to have a daily estimate made of the enemy's forces from all the data that could be obtained, and, judging it to be about 25,000 at this time, he said: "Suppose I send over 25,000 rations, do you think that will be a sufficient supply?" "I think it will be ample," remarked Lee, and added with considerable earnestness of manner, "and it will be a great relief, I assure you."
General Grant now turned to his chief commissary, Colonel (now General) M. R. Morgan, who was present, and directed him to arrange for issuing the rations. The number of officers and men surrendered was over 28,000. As to General Grant's supplies, he had ordered the army on starting out to carry twelve days' rations. This was the twelfth and last day of the campaign."

[Pvt Schnapps]

In the "War Time Papers of R. E. Lee" Lee's letter to Jefferson Davis of April 12 noted that CS ordnance reports for April 9 showed less than 8,000 infantry under arms, 63 artillery pieces, and about 2100 cavalry.

Lee's letter of April 20 to Davis (urging surrender rather than partisan warfare) explained that the army had begun to disintegrate as early as the 2nd of April, and straggling became widespread on the retreat. He also notes that the Chief Commissary of the ANV reported that some ten thousand men returned to the army on the evening of the surrender. He continued:

"During the succeeding days stragglers continued to give themselves up, so that on the 12th April, according to the rolls of those paroled, twenty-six thousand and eighteen (26,018 ) officers and men had surrendered. Men who had left the ranks on the march, and crossed the James River, returned and gave themselves up, and many have since come to Richmond and surrendered...."

It's not too hard to figure out what happened. The march from Richmond was hard and there was straggling on both sides. Men who knew the war was over started to leave in ever larger numbers. When they heard of the surrender, they returned to the army for paroles and rations. Without those they were no more than starving fugitives. With the paroles, they had documentation of their status to show to Union troops and to serve effectively as passes home.

So, the answer is that, at Appomattox, Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia. About 10,000 men were with him there, not counting staff and support. The balance of the army -- some 18,000 -- was scattered over the countryside, either trying to catch up or having decided to go home without waiting for the inevitable.

I hope this helps.

[Huck Finn]

Just as a joke one of my former students posted my name as the fifteenth president of the USA on "Wiki". It stood for over a week and had three people post they agreed. Where's my presidential library? It is handy if you want to know who was king of Poland in 1750, or who won an academy award in 1963, but for scholarly work, umm, not in my classroom.

Didn't a fake student graduate from Harvard some years back? As Casey Stengel once said: "You can look it up."

Was your name taken down as the 15th president? (I did correct your spelling of scholarly. You are welcome.)

Some folks just want to poke at something they did not think up first, couldn't maintain if they did and couldn't name the king of Poland in 1750 (Augustus III) without looking it up. By the way, the Internet is a fad.

[PVT.THIB]

I totally agree Huck. If our educators would spend more time teaching students how to research instead of cutting down the technology available for research, maybe entering college would be an easier task. But, alas, some of us had to teach ourselves when they got there! (I only speak from experience)
Thanks,

[hanktrent]

I totally agree Huck. If our educators would spend more time teaching students how to research instead of cutting down the technology available for research, maybe entering college would be an easier task. But, alas, some of us had to teach ourselves when they got there! (I only speak from experience)
Thanks,

When folks criticize Wikipedia as an unreliable source, it worries me because it implies they believe there are reliable sources that should be accepted without question. In my experience, Wikipedia is just as useful as any encyclopedia-type summar, and can be used the same way--read it to get an overview, then check the footnotes on anything of interest. If they lead to another secondary source, follow the trail backward until you can see what evidence the original person used to make his case, and decide if you agree and it fits with what you've also found and your own common sense.

If a researcher wants to put his reputation behind what he says, he (or she) will need to do that anyway, whether he's using Wikipedia or a book authored by a well-respected published historian.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Huck Finn]

Hank,

What you and another fellow put into researching ultra events is beyond belief. You are spot on.

Jason,

Research is the key to most everything worthwhile. As a professional horticulturist research is very important in many aspects of what we do. Accountants, lawyers, even English professors research. Then the fact checking kicks in to finish the job.

Although a hobby, to understand what, how, when and why, we research. Having a toe-hold like Wikipedia can get a research ball rolling but, as a final source, no way. It is an excellent starting point though.

It was not that long ago that to find a manuscript you had to rely on paper compendiums. You were lucky if one even existed. In researching a book in the mid 1990's, I spent two years and visited a number of libraries with zilch. Now the starting points are better and more accurate.

Wow, the circus is in town.

[Tiger_rifles]

The Appomattox Court House NHP website states that 28,231 paroles were issued to Confederates there.

Eric

Atleast two of my relations were there, GGGgrandFather and his Older Brother. Both in Co. C, 39th Battalion Virginia Cavalry, "Lee's Bodyguards".

[Pvt Schnapps]

If we go by Lee's information, there's more than a 60% chance that anyone with an "Appomattox" parole wasn't actually there at the time of the surrender. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[double_quick]

My GGGG-grandfather, Col. Charles Marshall, Lee's aide de camp, was with Lee at the McClean house when he surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia. Perhaps search reports made by him?

[Huck Finn]

If we go by Lee's information, there's more than a 60% chance that anyone with an "Appomattox" parole wasn't actually there at the time of the surrender. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

As the ANV disentigrated men went wherever to obtain a parole. Some made it home before parole. Some never received one.

Those paroled at ACH are counted as surrendering with the army. In fact, who knows how many were squared off prior to the surrender. With everything is mass disarray, I wonder if there was a final roll call. Clerks :D :D :D being who they are, what would you say? Fifty-fifty or better? Another trip to the library.

[Pvt Schnapps]

As the ANV disentigrated men went wherever to obtain a parole. Some made it home before parole. Some never received one.

Those paroled at ACH are counted as surrendering with the army. In fact, who knows how many were squared off prior to the surrender. With everything is mass disarray, I wonder if there was a final roll call. Clerks :D :D :D being who they are, what would you say? Fifty-fifty or better? Another trip to the library.

I go by my earlier response, pasted below. While Confederate clerking may have lagged behind that of the U. S. Army (shortages of material, lower literacy rates, shakier bureaucracy, other priorities), the count of effectives given to Lee on the 9th was good enough for him and should be good enough for us.

The later counts of parolees also more or less match with his rough estimate of 25,000. The difference between the 26,018 that Lee reported to Davis on the 20th and the 28,000 plus shown in the ORs and Grant's memoirs probably reflects the additional men who came in after Lee's letter.

Based on earlier mass surrenders, like that of Harper's Ferry in 1862, I assume that the Federal provosts checked the issued paroles against muster rolls provided by Confederate staff in order to leave out unaffiliated riffraff.

As a side note, given the absence of computers and bar-coding, the clerks of the civil war strike me as a pretty impressive lot.

Here's my earlier post for reference:

In the "War Time Papers of R. E. Lee" Lee's letter to Jefferson Davis of April 12 noted that CS ordnance reports for April 9 showed less than 8,000 infantry under arms, 63 artillery pieces, and about 2100 cavalry.

Lee's letter of April 20 to Davis (urging surrender rather than partisan warfare) explained that the army had begun to disintegrate as early as the 2nd of April, and straggling became widespread on the retreat. He also notes that the Chief Commissary of the ANV reported that some ten thousand men returned to the army on the evening of the surrender. He continued:

"During the succeeding days stragglers continued to give themselves up, so that on the 12th April, according to the rolls of those paroled, twenty-six thousand and eighteen (26,018 ) officers and men had surrendered. Men who had left the ranks on the march, and crossed the James River, returned and gave themselves up, and many have since come to Richmond and surrendered...."

[FloridaConfederate]

My forefather was one of them.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii312/floridaconfederate/parole0001.jpg


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[dehight]

where did you receive that from? state official or national? I'm trying to find whatever I can on an ancestor of mine too

[FloridaConfederate]

where did you receive that from? state official or national? I'm trying to find whatever I can on an ancestor of mine too



My GGGrandmother recv'd it via the Fl Comptroller in 1909 from the US War Department.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[gwagner]

My grandpappy George W. Sexton will be found on the parole list. He was paroled with the rest of the 60th Alabama Infantry.

The Alabama State Archives lists the following info in the regimental history, verified by numerous sources:

"The regiment was in the trenches at Petersburg for eight months, and lost continually by the almost incessant shelling. At White-oaks Road and Hatcher's Run the Sixtieth was fully engaged, and its loss was severe. At Appomattox Court House, "when the news of the surrender was received, its men were huzzaing over a captured Artillery battery and a routed foe." The regiment there numbered 165, rank and file.

I'll see if I can find their number at Petersburg.

[Cove Rebel]

When folks criticize Wikipedia as an unreliable source, it worries me because it implies they believe there are reliable sources that should be accepted without question. In my experience, Wikipedia is just as useful as any encyclopedia-type summar, and can be used the same way--read it to get an overview, then check the footnotes on anything of interest. If they lead to another secondary source, follow the trail backward until you can see what evidence the original person used to make his case, and decide if you agree and it fits with what you've also found and your own common sense.

If a researcher wants to put his reputation behind what he says, he (or she) will need to do that anyway, whether he's using Wikipedia or a book authored by a well-respected published historian.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


I was teaching my son research skill last night at the library and we had almost the exact same discussion. My advice was to use Wiki as an initial overview but not as a cited source and to cross reference his work as much as possible.