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Hondo
07-26-2006, 04:50 AM
All,

This past weekend we realized that there is a lack of percussion caps. The ones that were readily available were the 6 wing CCI caps. The 4 wing caps we have been using were hard to find then with a limit of 1 tub per person. It seems the German company who made the 4 wing were sold and the vendors have little or no stock now. Plus the prices are going through the roof.

Are the concerns still there for the CCI caps as far as the pieces flying off when the weapon is discharged? Is there another good readily available cap out there? If not we are sol for lack of caps.

Any ideas or help is appreciated.


Hondo

Rob Weaver
07-26-2006, 05:39 AM
I use the CCI caps when I shoot my guns on the range and I've never had a problem with them. They produce a hot fire that makes for good ignition in my Sharps. On the other hand, I'm not standing shoulder to shoulder with anyone when I'm firing. Then again, with all the latest controversy about ramming, is this even an issue anymore. FWIW - I haven't had trouble getting standard musket caps.

Sgt. Rob Weaver
Pine River Boys
Co I 7th Wisconsin

Altecfive
07-26-2006, 05:47 AM
Yes, the CCI are hot, but the pieces do launch off like fly projectiles. I know I was standing right behind my boys as they were firing giving commands and one piece flew off and clipped my face pretty good. No blood on that one, but a little higher and it would have been an eye.

bob 125th nysvi
07-26-2006, 08:58 PM
the same thing at a reenactment two weeks ago. All six wings. But the sutlers said they were coming in. They were temporaily out because all their stock had sold out. None of them indicated that they were having problems gertting them. We may be seeing panic buying here as people assume they aren't going to be made anymore. That always causes supply train problems.

I use them for target shooting.

But I was at an reenactment last year when the guy above me (being dead and all that I was horizontal) was using the 6 wings. The cap burst and dropped one of the hot wings on my face.

So I try not to use them.

We had this discussion earlier in the year. If their not available, their not available and we'll make do.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

Button Whizzer
07-27-2006, 03:41 PM
A reduction in the number of available percussion caps could result in a lower and more realistic rate of fire. Imagine if they were a buck each.

Brandon

Hondo
07-27-2006, 05:07 PM
For what it's worth. The story I got was the company who makes the caps has been sold and no caps are being shipped state side. This is pending the final sale and inventory. But again I say, this is only what I heard and don't know for certain.

Hondo

bob 125th nysvi
07-28-2006, 09:15 PM
seems to have them in stock but are limiting the purchase to two containers per purchase.

I should have enough to make it through the year.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY

Rob Weaver
07-29-2006, 06:58 AM
This is probably a very stupid question, especially from someone who's been around as long as I have, but lend me an ear for a moment. Flintlocks used for reenacting routinely have a flashguard attached to the frizzen spring, to contain the flash in the pan so that it doesn't ignite the flesh or clothing of the soldier on the firer's right. They weren't used historically; they're a reenactor safety feature that has univeral application. (So are hammer stalls, but they're not germain to my point.) Is there any way to create a flash guard that will attach to a percussion rifle or musket, to deflect pieces of a cap? Run it up from the trigger guard, screw it under the percussion cone, etc? Again I apologize if this sounds really, really crazy.

Sgt. Rob Weaver
Pine River Boys
Co I, 7th Wisconsin

Jim Mayo
07-29-2006, 08:43 AM
I have seen a small, thin, brass concave washer that fit under the cone. It looked sorta like a contact lens with the eyeball side up and surrounding the cone. It would have deflected any parts of caps upward. It was on a M1816 converted to precussion but was not a period item. I saved it and if I can remember what I did with it I will post a pic.

Rob Weaver
07-29-2006, 04:14 PM
I have seen a small, thin, brass concave washer that fit under the cone. It looked sorta like a contact lens with the eyeball side up and surrounding the cone. It would have deflected any parts of caps upward. It was on a M1816 converted to precussion but was not a period item. I saved it and if I can remember what I did with it I will post a pic.

That's exactly what I have in mind! Something like that could be a genuine safety boon to reenactors of all sorts. Like the flashguard, you can take it off if you wish, for target shooting or hunting, etc, but a afety feature for sham battles. If you can post a pic that would be very helpful.

Sgt. Rob Weaver
Pine River Boys
Co I, 7th Wisconsin Volunteers

Sgt_Pepper
07-29-2006, 10:43 PM
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=flash

Army30th
07-30-2006, 12:11 AM
RWS's website is not functioning properly. I can tell you that I personally have 1000 of these caps on back order and have been waiting for 1 and a half months for those 5 containers to arrive. At all sporting shops I have been in in my area, they are not to be found.

I have never had any trouble with the CCI caps and currently have 1000 of these on order as well.

If I am correct the importer/distributor is located in Closter, NJ but they are just the middle man for Dynamit-Nobel AG of Germany.

Rob Weaver
07-30-2006, 06:04 AM
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=flash

Does this gadget work, and if it does how can we begin to publicize it? This could revolutionize musket safety guys. All of us have gotten cap-washed at some time. I have one musket that is pitted around the breech from cap explosions. This is a cheap item - $3! Think of it - you could use any caps you want. In my area, CCI caps are all the sporting goods store sell, at $4.95 a tin. That's a lot less than musket caps. As I said earlier, flintlock reenactors use flashguards regularly. Should we follow their example?

Sgt. Rob Weaver
Pine River Boys
Co I 7th Wisconsin Volunteers

Bailey Bennett & Scott
07-31-2006, 03:33 PM
The "flash cup" sold by Dixie is primarily intended to keep flash from the cap from charring the wood of your musket. This is particularly a concern for guys who shoot original muskets on a semi-regular basis. It will in no way protect you from debris from a CCI cap, and it will, in fact, make it nearly impossible to get a RWS cap off the nipple after firing. I used one for two years, and it's a real pain in the neck. I eventually abandoned it.

ewtaylor
07-31-2006, 04:08 PM
3 tins of Navy Arms brand caps. These tins have 250 caps each so I should be safe for a couple of years.
ew taylor

Rob Weaver
08-02-2006, 06:51 AM
The "flash cup" sold by Dixie is primarily intended to keep flash from the cap from charring the wood of your musket. This is particularly a concern for guys who shoot original muskets on a semi-regular basis. It will in no way protect you from debris from a CCI cap, and it will, in fact, make it nearly impossible to get a RWS cap off the nipple after firing. I used one for two years, and it's a real pain in the neck. I eventually abandoned it.

Well, that's the end of that great idea...
Thanks anyway.

Sgt Rob Weaver
Pine River Boys
Co I, 7th Wisconsin Volunteers

Army30th
08-02-2006, 08:10 PM
3 tins of Navy Arms brand caps. These tins have 250 caps each so I should be safe for a couple of years.
ew taylor


Not planning on shooting much, I guess. Navy Arms if I recollect correctly, is even scarcer than RWS: as in not being manufactured anymore from the good old state of Brazil.

rbs62
08-08-2006, 09:21 AM
as caps and gunpowder get short the amount that is fired will really hurt the hobby. my last event (1st bull run) i only had 100 cartlages and 50 caps for the 2 day event used up most the first day now don't have anything for upcoming events back home.one place has gun powder but usally out one other place has caps but same story sutlers arenot any help at events .will probly take early hit!!

ewtaylor
08-08-2006, 09:33 AM
Not planning on shooting much, I guess. Navy Arms if I recollect correctly, is even scarcer than RWS: as in not being manufactured anymore from the good old state of Brazil.
I don't attend that many events and I'm not a powder burner. 750 caps should last me more than a couple of years.
ew taylor

Army30th
08-10-2006, 03:04 PM
Gentlemen,

I have been notified by RWS (since I have an order with them that has not come in since placing it two months ago) that the shortage of their caps is due not to brass shortage as some have speculated but because the company is having difficulties obtaining the proper paperwork and permits to allow importation of their product into the US.

It will probably be another month at least before I get mine in.

Yours

Rob
08-10-2006, 03:41 PM
I've had no trouble whatsoever getting the German caps. Every time I go to the gun shop, they're always there.

Let me go find some wood to knock on...

(Now, if I could find some of those small wax matches, I'd be in hog heaven.)

toptimlrd
08-10-2006, 09:51 PM
seems to have them in stock but are limiting the purchase to two containers per purchase.

I should have enough to make it through the year.

Bob Sandusky
Co C 125th NYSVI
Esperance, NY


Thanks for the heads up on Dixie, I was about one event away from having to yell "BANG" when I took the field.

Army30th
08-20-2006, 11:04 AM
Gentlemen,

I have been notified by RWS (since I have an order with them that has not come in since placing it two months ago) that the shortage of their caps is due not to brass shortage as some have speculated but because the company is having difficulties obtaining the proper paperwork and permits to allow importation of their product into the US.

It will probably be another month at least before I get mine in.

Yours


Gents, and Ladies:

I have recently discovered that importation is NOT the problem. The distributor moved from Closter, NJ to I believe either Alabama or Arkansas. Therefore, all paperwork had to be changed to reflect this, including the hazardous materials manufacturing licenses.

Now looking at three months and no caps with the possibility of another month.

Yours,

Hondo
08-20-2006, 02:59 PM
A good friend just visited Gettysburg yesterday (he only lives about a hour away) and all the sutlers he spoke with had any caps. But it seems everything else is going up in price by as much as 30%.

I hope this is a big misunderstanding but who knows?




Hondo

Jim of the SRR
08-20-2006, 05:27 PM
I would not recommend using anything but the Colt or German 4 wing caps. Six wing caps WILL shear off frequently and become flying objects in the ranks. I speak from experience as I have been struck in the eye with a errant cap wing. It caused a corneal abrasion down to the 3rd layer of my cornea and resulted in a trip to the hospital. Vision was only very slightly impaired (20/20 to 20/40...no glasses required yet). It usually results in nothing more than a small cut on a pards face or neck, but their is risk to your sight. I inspect cap pouches on occasion to be sure everyone has 4 wing caps.
It's funny how many mainstreamers (who do not attend c/p/h events), post gripes about authentic events using rammers to load, yet blindly advocate the use of inferior caps. Proper technique enures saftey with rammers, but nothing protects against 6 wing caps. Just my 2 cents.

Jim Butler
SRR www.geocities.com/saltriverrifles
SCAR www.geocities.com/scar_civilwar

Army30th
08-20-2006, 08:26 PM
I am not espousing the use of anything that is dangerous, but unless someone has a massive stockpile in a warehouse somewhere (and until the paperwork gets worked out), reenactors and shooters alike will be using whatever caps are available. Unless you wanna use pop-guns and yell bang bang across the field. I dare anyone to inspect my traps and tell me I cannot use "Brand X" caps or for that matter "Brand Z" powder. Remember folks, it is a hobby, and a dangerous hobby at that. All the dangers that are inherent with using blackpowder weapons cannot be avoided completely. We don't live in a vacuum. That risk is known going in, and to think otherwise you are only fooling Number One.

toptimlrd
08-20-2006, 09:30 PM
I am not espousing the use of anything that is dangerous, but unless someone has a massive stockpile in a warehouse somewhere (and until the paperwork gets worked out), reenactors and shooters alike will be using whatever caps are available. Unless you wanna use pop-guns and yell bang bang across the field. I dare anyone to inspect my traps and tell me I cannot use "Brand X" caps or for that matter "Brand Z" powder. Remember folks, it is a hobby, and a dangerous hobby at that. All the dangers that are inherent with using blackpowder weapons cannot be avoided completely. We don't live in a vacuum. That risk is known going in, and to think otherwise you are only fooling Number One.

Will,

With all due respect my personal safety trumps anything to do with this hobby. Yes there are inherent dangers, but I refuse to take part in anything where there is a recognized hazard that can be minimized but is not done. I have been hit by the six wing cap fragments myself and they have drawn whelps and some minor scratches that drew minor blood. Fortunately I have not been hit in the eye yet but when I notice a six wing I bring it to the attention of the NCOs or officers. If it is continued to be permitted I take a hit and do not take the field again.

I went ahead and ordered an extra 400 caps from Dixie and found another tin in my local gun shop (their last tin) so I am now set (please bear in mind that I am not hoarding as not only I, but my son reenacts and participate in numerous events. These three tins are about a years worth of caps which should provide sufficient time for the details on the availability of the German caps to be resolved. As of last week, Dixie still had caps available although at a limit of two tins per customer.

dedogtent
08-20-2006, 09:45 PM
We in the 2nd Delaware have started to inspect caps along with other things pertaining to safety on the field. This is a hobby but that doesn't mean we have to compromise safety. Bottom line is 6 wing caps are very dangerous and should not be used. I just bought 2 tins from Dixie today also. Go there and buy and stay safe.

ewtaylor
08-21-2006, 08:24 AM
I dare anyone to inspect my traps and tell me I cannot use "Brand X" caps or for that matter "Brand Z" powder. Remember folks, it is a hobby, and a dangerous hobby at that. All the dangers that are inherent with using blackpowder weapons cannot be avoided completely. We don't live in a vacuum. That risk is known going in, and to think otherwise you are only fooling Number One.

Every event I have been to, including the farbfests, inspect guns for safety, cart. boxes for tins, and cap boxes for correct caps. What kind of events do you go to? Please tell me so I can avoid them?
ew taylor

huntdaw
08-21-2006, 09:47 AM
"I dare anyone to inspect my traps and tell me I cannot use "Brand X" caps"

I, for one, do hope someone checks and tells folks that they cannot use 6 wing caps if they've got them. If they don't they're not doing their job and I hope someone with said caps is not beside me in line. Yes, it is a hobby with inherent dangers. That's exactly why it's even more important to practice safety as much as possible. I have known several people to have eye damage done by these things. Fortunately the injury was similar to Jim's and was nothing permanent but I don't want to be one of those people nor do I wish to see anyone else injured by them.

Army30th
08-21-2006, 04:52 PM
I'm not wishing anybody to get hurt, but if there is no other alternative, what are you going to do? Stop reenacting??

And no, it's not any of your business to know what events I attend. I'm not telling you what kind of caps to use or not to use, nor did I tell you what caps I use or don't use. I merely posted the information as to why there wasn't a supply available as to yet. Been to some big ones, and some small ones, and to private ones. Never had a problem.

If you can last your reenactment career on two tins of caps, then by all means please do so, but I cannot.

I am finished with the conversation...and will not post on it when my shipment arrives.

skamikaze
08-21-2006, 05:07 PM
i just found four cans of german caps at a gander mountain in iowa. needless to say i bought them out.

im not sure what to do if we dont get more german caps soon. i for one, am opposed to the CCI caps. we had to use them at manassas and so many of us got hit with sharpnel that we decided not to use them anymore, even if that means we cant fire. we'll see what happens. but i just got about 1,000 caps for me and a few in my company who dont have germans.

Jim of the SRR
08-21-2006, 08:28 PM
I guess if you go to powder burner events, you may need to have alot more caps available to you. Most of the events I attend, guys are lucky to go thru 20 rounds in a whole weekend. If you are going to events where you stand less than 100 yards apart and blaze away thru 40 rounds, you may want to reconsider these types of reenactments for many countless reasons (the need for large quantities of caps being just one).

Regards,
Jim Butler
Saving caps and taking appropriate hits!

toptimlrd
08-21-2006, 11:02 PM
I'm not wishing anybody to get hurt, but if there is no other alternative, what are you going to do? Stop reenacting??

And no, it's not any of your business to know what events I attend. I'm not telling you what kind of caps to use or not to use, nor did I tell you what caps I use or don't use. I merely posted the information as to why there wasn't a supply available as to yet. Been to some big ones, and some small ones, and to private ones. Never had a problem.

If you can last your reenactment career on two tins of caps, then by all means please do so, but I cannot.

I am finished with the conversation...and will not post on it when my shipment arrives.

To answer the question, if all that is available is unsafe equipment then yes I will quit reenacting until safety improves. If someone is going to risk my safety by using unsafe equipment, then it becomes my business; in your original post you stated "I dare someone to inspect my traps and tell me I can't use brand X caps", but I have already notified the officers of an event we sponsor about this unsafe practice so we can take measures against. Most events I have atended in fact list in the regulations that six wing caps are not allowed.

Now how long will two tins of caps last? In my case with firing an average of 60 rounds during a two day event (and each tin holding 250 caps) I would get right at 10 events. I normally attend five or six events per year so that is about a year and a half in which time I am sure the supply issue will be resolved. With caps still available and many people helping us to find said caps there is really no excuse not to buy while we can and be ready to ride the storm out. Although the price is somewhat inflated and the six wings are cheaper (as they ALWAYS are), I hope we do not make our decisions based on price alone.

Although you are finished with the conversation, I hope you will reconsider your position as safety should be first and foremost on everyone's mind when they take the field, this is why we inspect the caps, powder and muskets to have some measure of safety. If any of your equipment does not pass the inspection then you should not be allowed to participate. If someone around you is injured due to unsafe equipment you may be knowingly using, I wonder if you will feel the same way and I would hope you would be held accountable.

Army30th
08-22-2006, 09:17 AM
I did say that I was finished with the conversation, so I will keep my last reply as short as possible. I don't know how this degenerated into a pissing contest about safety, when it started out as a thread for cap supply shortage; maybe that was my fault.

Sorry if anyone thinks I am an unsafe oaf, but I am probably one of the safest people you have ever met or ever will meet, because by necessity I have to be. (And no, I'm not going to get into that). I am aware some of you on here have probably been reenacting longer than me. I have seen Personnel inspect weapons, cart boxes and canteens. However in the almost twenty years I've been doing this, nobody from event safety inspectors to company commanders, has ever inspected my caps or the caps of any other person at any reenactment I have ever attended, and I have attended hundreds upon hundreds and no, not as a powder burner. I probably fire less than anybody, and I never carry more than forty rounds at any one time. If I run out, I run out. I will then either die or desert.

I have never done anything unsafe, attempted to do anything unsafe, or allowed myself to be in a position that I considered unsafe. I have never "forgot" my ramrod in the barrel, have never "accidentally" loaded a live round in my musket, and have never bayonetted anybody. To put it bluntly, I have never gotten that "caught up in the moment" to totally lose myself to reality.

Now, there is a shortage of musket caps out there. How you deal with that is your business.

Thank you for listening to the rant, and I am really truly done.

major
08-22-2006, 01:03 PM
I just finished talking with a man that I feel is “in the know” and he tells me that the importer of the RWS caps had some problems with import licensed when they formed a new American company to import the caps. They tell him that everything should be back on track by the end of August or the early weeks in September. So don’t get to worried we should have a good supply of RWS caps soon.

tompritchett
08-22-2006, 03:26 PM
owever in the almost twenty years I've been doing this, nobody from event safety inspectors to company commanders, has ever inspected my caps or the caps of any other person at any reenactment I have ever attended, and I have attended hundreds upon hundreds and no, not as a powder burner.

Actually, there may very well have been such inspections but you were totally unaware it. I know that when I was the acting 1SGT of my old unit, I would note the caps used when the weapon was fired during the function check especially with new and visiting troops. However, I do not think I ever actually opened a cap pouch once to perform such a check even though I was extremely vigilant and vocal about the CCI caps.

toptimlrd
08-22-2006, 08:07 PM
I did say that I was finished with the conversation, so I will keep my last reply as short as possible. I don't know how this degenerated into a pissing contest about safety, when it started out as a thread for cap supply shortage; maybe that was my fault.

Will,

What got me was your comment about daring someone to inspect you and tell you what you can or can not use. I reenact with my seventeen year old son and I can tell you that anyone who would do anything that may needlessly jeapordize his safety concerns me as well as anyone who jeapordizes my safety. The reaons this became a safety discussion is because the caps in question (six winged) are inherently too dangerous to be used on one of our muskets at such close range to your file partner. I am usually one of the most amicable folks you will meet and am not militant towards any reenacting group whether they be hardcore or farb. I am very militant about safety. If I misread your intent I sincerely apologize, but at first blush your original post quite frankly scared me. I also was not trying to get involved in any type of contest but was trying to be as persuasive as possible about the inherent danger of these caps.

54thovi
08-23-2006, 09:21 AM
I just finished talking with a man that I feel is “in the know” and he tells me that the importer of the RWS caps had some problems with import licensed when they formed a new American company to import the caps. They tell him that everything should be back on track by the end of August or the early weeks in September. So don’t get to worried we should have a good supply of RWS caps soon.

My supplier told me pretty much the same thing. He said "about 6 weeks".

John Feagin

Bummer
08-23-2006, 09:58 AM
How safe is safe? What chances do we take every day for one reason or another? We most definitely want to minimize risk in our lives, but then we want excitement, adventure, and so on too. Is a totally safe and sane world a fun one? If one wants to totally minimize all danger one would have to live in a padded cell--and that may be fine for some folks. The amount of risk in life is a balance that each must chose.

As to reenacting, I suppose the safest battle reenactments are the Revolutionary War lawn ones, if you want a bit more excitement you try French & Indian War--if you want to really live on the edge, you try WWI--downright dangerous at times! They know it, and they tell prospective participants too, it's not for everyone...many elect not to do WWI for that reason. Or sky dive, bungee jump, or mountain climb either...everyone meets their own level of safety/excitement--which face it, are generally mutually exclusive.

In our case I would say what we're talking about here is one of the differences between 'mainstream' and 'hardcore'--in other words does one sacrifice a more authentic look--copper caps (which they should be) instead of brass ones for instance--for a notch more of safety. Or with a very noticable non-period device attached to everyone's musket (and it would have to be everyone).
I am not saying where I draw that line (and I do draw one for myself); everyone must draw their own personal line by chosing what events and activities to pursue and which to pass on, AND leave others to do the same. There is something out there for everyone...but to each their own.

And this is not even to give more than a passing mention about some control freaks who use 'the name of safety' (after all, who can seriously argue against that?) as the platform for their predilictions.

Spence Waldron~

tompritchett
08-23-2006, 05:10 PM
How safe is safe? What chances do we take every day for one reason or another? We most definitely want to minimize risk in our lives, but then we want excitement, adventure, and so on too. Is a totally safe and sane world a fun one? If one wants to totally minimize all danger one would have to live in a padded cell--and that may be fine for some folks. The amount of risk in life is a balance that each must chose.

The key is the difference between voluntary versus involutary risk - a concept that fundamental to risk management of many types. It is one thing when an individual decides for themselves to place themselves at risk for whatever reason (e.g., mountain climbing, white water rafting, sky diving, smoking, etc.) and a totally different situation where someone else's action place that individual at risk (e.g., someone lighting a cigarette in the non-smoking section of a restaurant, charging at an individual with fixed bayonet, or choosing to use a brand of cap that has a documented history of injurying others adjacent to the shooter). People tend to tolerate voluntary risks but can become very angry when being exposed to involuntary risk - even when the involuntary risk is orders of magnitude less than the voluntary risks they routinely take. It is just human nature.

toptimlrd
08-23-2006, 06:18 PM
The key is the difference between voluntary versus involutary risk - a concept that fundamental to risk management of many types. It is one thing when an individual decides for themselves to place themselves at risk for whatever reason (e.g., mountain climbing, white water rafting, sky diving, smoking, etc.) and a totally different situation where someone else's action place that individual at risk (e.g., someone lighting a cigarette in the non-smoking section of a restaurant, charging at an individual with fixed bayonet, or choosing to use a brand of cap that has a documented history of injurying others adjacent to the shooter). People tend to tolerate voluntary risks but can become very angry when being exposed to involuntary risk - even when the involuntary risk is orders of magnitude less than the voluntary risks they routinely take. It is just human nature.

Well stated Tom. The risk in our hobby will always be there but we take steps to mitigate that risk. Do you think crossed rammers would have prevented a unit from charging a gun during the war? Nope but I hope it would stop us. We are carrying 40+ paper tubes of gunpowder on our right hip, not the safest thing in the world, but we use tins and (hopefully) don't use a lit match to see how many rounds we have left if it's dark. There were 2 band muskets and musketoons carried in battle at times during the war, but I have yet to see a reenactment that allowed them.

People can and do get hurt in their avocations but if there is a less dangerous way to do something while still being able to do the hobby right, we should do it. We all have done something that possibly wasn't the safest (I'm sure we have all had our bells rung by a cap or muzzle too close th the ear from a rear ranker or done it to someone ourselves accidentally) but that is the "inherent risk". Blatently disregarding a safety standard is not inherant but is negligent in my humble opinion.

With all due respect, I have to now agree with Will from a few posts ago that this thread has gone off track. I think the safety issue has been thouroughly discussed and would like to see it get back to trying to figure out when and where proper caps can be obtained.