Period correct Lanterns?

[Union Maid]

Howdy I was wondering i know candles in lanterns were used alot in those days but i was wondering was lamp oil not around? Is it not period correct? Cause we have a lantern that takes oil but i notice a lot of people have candles instead. which is period correct?


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2193/2337531960_532f8216fe.jpg

this is a pic of what we have except not the tacky blue but a rough blackish.
is this not period correct?

[hanktrent]

Both candles and various oils were used in lanterns in the period, but that doesn't mean every candle or every oil lantern is typical of the period. For example, I've not seen a period image or example of the common reenacting candle lantern with the wooden base and four vertical dowels around a glass chimney, either, and I'd be curious if anyone can document that.

I'll let folks who know more about this than me give a more detailed answer, but the short answer is that the lantern in the photo isn't period. The wide hollow vertical handles stand out as a post-war invention, and there are probably other smaller details as well that mark it as a later lantern.

Go here (http://www.classiclantern.com/lantern.htm) and click on the hyperlink in the paragraph "In 1868, Robert Dietz began to produce and sell a new tubular lantern patented by John Irwin..." for an illustration of how the new invention worked.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Danny]

Howdy I was wondering i know candles in lanterns were used alot in those days but i was wondering was lamp oil not around? Is it not period correct?

What Hank said, in other words...

Lamps of almost every description were sold and used at the time - including tinware lamps that were unique to one tinsmith from a particular town or travelling wagon. So if the materials and construction method are correct, so too the lamp, and reasonably so.

More than reasonable [deletion -THP; trying to pick another fight] find a lamp patterned after an actual CW example and keep the source photo with you.

There were lamps that burned oil. For a common soldier that would have been harder to carry, but an officer or civilian contractor/follower/sutler may have had such. Whale oil was the best fuel, and you won't be able to burn that.

Only general observation is that those typical and readily-available metal oil lamps having two-tubes either side of a glass chimney, still sold for camping today, are not a pattern that's very authentic for CW, according to the experts.

And for me and Hank, try to avoid those huge-ish wooden candle lamps with four glass inserts and the lift-up candle cup. Though you will see them everywhere at reenactments you will be hard-pressed to find them in period photos or museum collections. Even if they are correct, they look too much like "Country 'n Calico" decor (along with those porch geese that you dress up in the little seasonal outfits :) )

Dan Wykes

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I would also add that discussion comes up from time to time as the forum gains new members, so use the search function up top and type in "lantern" and you'll find a wealth of information that was previously discussed/debated/beat to death

[sbl]

Click here for a Harper's Weekly image if hand-held lamps used by soldiers.

" MAY 17, 1862. REBELS OUTSIDE THEIR WORKS AT YORKTOWN RECONNOITERING WITH DARK LANTERNS. - SKETCHED BY MR. WINSLOW HOMER."

I believe dark lanterns could be opened when needed as opposed to always showing. The small size is interesting.


http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1862/may/rebel-soldiers.jpg

[hanktrent]

More than reasonable, [removal of deleted material; THP] find a lamp patterned after an actual CW example and keep the source photo with you.

Uh, doesn't that kinda undercut the attempt at authenticity, to carry around a source photo of an antique lantern? Unless one can document that people in the 1860s went around carrying photos of lanterns similar to their own. ;)


I believe dark lanterns could be opened when needed as opposed to always showing. The small size is interesting.

I have one and I love it, though I wish I knew more about the context of their use and how common they would be, especially among civilians, outside of the usual suspects: policemen, detectives, etc.

I've carried it when portraying a former slave catcher, and when I supposedly just purchased supplies in a big city, but I'm not sure just how common they were out in the country and among ordinary farmers and mechanics they would be. Anyone have any idea?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Danny]

Uh, doesn't that kinda undercut the attempt at authenticity, to carry around a source photo of an antique lantern? Unless one can document that people in the 1860s went around carrying photos of lanterns similar to their own. ;) ?Hank Trent

Yes, Hank, I agree it does undercut the attempt at authenticity. Hence my words "more than reasonable".

I likewise wondered on your words to the inverse: "unless one can document..." So which way would you have it, then?

Dan Wykes

THP - Would "if you're concerned about the history-heavies" have been more acceptable? I beginning to feel like I'm the only person on the forum that isn't allowed to make-up words.

[mmescher]

To get to the heart of your question, I don't think the style lantern you showed is correct to the time period. I think this has been discussed before and the style is much later, even though you will see them at reenactments and at some sutlers.

If you are a soldier, I don't think it would have been practical for you to use an oil or kerosene lamp of any design. Liquids have this nasty tendency to leak and who wants their gear soaked in flammable liquid? Then there is the issue of the glass chimney. Those break under the bumping of travel of an army on the march. Candles were a lot more practical for soldiers.

For a discussion of candles themselves, the current article in Virginia's Veranda on our website discusses candles. Go to raggedsoldier.com and click on the menu item "articles: Virginia's Veranda" Go to the title for the article and click.

Michael Mescher

[bob 125th nysvi]

I think you have to think like a soldier (assuming a military impression).

First it is one more heavy item to lung that 20 miles everyday when a fairly light candle will do the same job.

Two do you really want that oil can (not to mention it's extra weight) sloshing oil all over your personal possessions when it leaks?

Sure they had them. Whale oil had been around quite a while and so had unprocessed heavy oil but unless you had a wagon how does it add to your impression? Period railroad lanterns are a fine example of something that existed but you never saw outside a civilian or USMRR facilty.

[Danny]

Union Maid, are you asking this as a soldier impression?

Danny

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Union Maid, are you asking this as a soldier impression?

Danny
I'm fairly certain the young lady asked this for a citizen's impression, but it is posted on a military thread.

[hanktrent]

Yes, Hank, I agree it does undercut the attempt at authenticity. Hence my words "more than reasonable".

I likewise wondered on your words to the inverse: "unless one can document..." So which way would you have it, then?

Dan Wykes

"Unless one can document" was a joke about the paradox. Note the winky face in the original post. :D A reenactor who carefully documented the accuracy of everything he did, could only carry documentation while recreating the 1860s if he could document that people in the 1860s carried documentation with them.

Seriously, in real life, there are ways of reenacting where carrying documentation during an event really would be considered farby and unnecessary anyway. I know that would be true for my group at Piney Woods, for example. There are also ways of reenacting where discussing research and documentation is a big part of the event and in that case, carrying a copy of one's documentation might very well be a good thing, and educational. Just depends what kind of event/situation one's in.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Union Maid]

yes i am afraid i posted it in the wrong section,huh? well to be honest right now i am interested in civilian impression,Danny, but i should know when i do get enough money to buy federal uniforms for me and my sisters. so i want to know both but right now civilian.

[Poor Private]

SBL,
Wasn't/isn't what they are carrying called a bullseye lantern? They are listed in the Dixie catalog and there is a shutter that moves. to give light or not. They say there is a Harpers illustration showing litter bearers searching throuhg the Wilderness looking for wooded. It's on page 430 of the 2008 catalkog. price is Gulp $110.

[sbl]

$110...let's see tin, labor, glass. That's about right. I don't know about the "bullseye" name. Might be good for anything other than a private's impression.

[tompritchett]

yes i am afraid i posted it in the wrong section,huh? well to be honest right now i am interested in civilian impression,Danny, but i should know when i do get enough money to buy federal uniforms for me and my sisters. so i want to know both but right now civilian.

Well that can be easily corrected. Consider it done.

[hanktrent]

$110...let's see tin, labor, glass. That's about right. I don't know about the "bullseye" name. Might be good for anything other than a private's impression.

It's tricky to figure out exactly when and how "bullseye lantern" vs. "dark lantern" were used as names in the period. The bullseye refers to the lens of course, and the dark refers to the shutter.

A lantern that had only the lens and no shutter would certainly be a bullseye, and a lantern with the shutter could be called a dark lantern, but there seems to be enough overlapping of the terms that lanterns with shutters and lenses were also called bullseye.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[mtodriscoll]

I've done a little research on candle lanterns of the period. I can't find my onlne links now that I need them, but from what I can see, the lanterns sold at re-enactments are *fairly* close. Some lanterns did have the four wood columns with 4 glass sides. Where the modern replicas deviate from the period is in the addition of the dowel rod to raise and lower the candle. Pictures I've seen show one of the sides being hinged with a latch for gaining access to the candle (access door).

As I said, I can't find my research links (I'm at work), but here are some links to some *proportedly* period-correct candle lanterns being auctioned on the web at antique dealers. Assuming the auctioneers/appraisers accurately determined the lantern's age...

http://www.paulmaddenantiques.com/ea19cwocala.html
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-good-19th-century-candle-lantern,-woo-1-c-l92jsib5px
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2656563
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/candle-lantern-19th-c-pine-box-candle-lantern

...bear in mind it does not mean soldiers carried them. They wouldn't have had the space or desire/muscle to carry those heavy wooden lanterns on the march. They could be correct for civilian impressions though. Though I'd look for lanterns with hinged side-door rather than the rod to raise/lower the candle.

[GrumpyDave]

This should give you, at the least a starting point:

http://lanternnet.com/

http://www.thelampworks.com/lw_companies_miller.htm

http://www.thelampworks.com/lw_info_diagram.htm

Maybe, if I can remember, I'll post a photo(s) of my 2 original Millers. I've had both at garrison type events in the past.

[TheQM]

Grumpy,

There's an old joke. "I know what's wrong, but I don't have a clue what's right". It seems the Dietz lanterns were patented in 1868. In looking at your various sources, I couldn't figure out if any lanterns with a handle and bale to protect the globe are correct? You mentioned Miller lanterns, but I didn't find any specific information on them.

When I do the Headquarters bit, I like to keep a lantern lit over night. I now use an old Dietz Lantern and hide it during the day; but I would like to come up with something better. I figure a table lamp would last about one event.

[hanktrent]

In looking at your various sources, I couldn't figure out if any lanterns with a handle and bale to protect the globe are correct?

I'm lousy at finding pictures online, but I believe there's one of a couple of African Americans showing off the corncakes they just cooked, in front of a tent, and there's a lantern hanging in the background, but don't waste a lot of time looking for it because my memory may be wrong. There's also the 1865 Russell and Erwin Hardware catalog which shows some, but I also don't know if it's online or only in hardcopy reprint.

Yes, the most obvious anachronistic part is the two thick handles/tubes on either side, but there were period lanterns with globes and bales. This article discusses some of the earlier types:

http://www.nrhs.com/spot/lanterns/index.html

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[GrumpyDave]

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8952/unidentifiedofficerma2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


No, wait, that's not it.:mrgreen:



From the National Archives. Labled as Petersburg 1864. And this photo is on the Deitz website. Remember, Deitz had a lot of patents.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/5802/deitzlanterncamppetersbfx7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[hanktrent]

From the National Archives. Labled as Petersburg 1864. And this photo is on the Deitz website. Remember, Deitz had a lot of patents.

Geez, how do you do that? I can generally remember what book I saw a photo in, go right to the bookcase, pull it out and flip it open if need be (which doesn't help because I don't have a scanner on this computer), but I can never figure how to search for a photo online, and I never thought to go to the Deitz website. Thank you!

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[TheQM]

I never thought to go to the Deitz website. Thank you!

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


Hank,

Don't feel too bad. I was on the Deitz website for about an hour last night and missed that photo entirely. Of course, I now know the Deitz families' history from about 1820 until last year! The Deitz Company is still in business. Of course, it's now located in China!

My next question. Is anybody making a lantern like the one in the photo, or do you have to find an old one? From Grumps' other sites, it seems there's lots of replacement parts around.

[MDRebCAv]

I use a brass anchor lantern. Ummm...well, it doesn't get tied to an anchor but it is hoisted into the rigging of a ship when the ship is at anchor.

Being a Marylander and loving the Chesapeake, it is part of my character's back story.

[GrumpyDave]

This will give you hours and hours of fun:

http://www.thelampworks.com/lw_site_map.htm

Scroll down. You can see everything from lamps, shades, burners and the histories of a whole buncho' companies.;) Bill, since you're retired, you should have time o' plenty!


Oh my goodness, read this!

http://www.thelampworks.com/lw_lamp_accidents.htm

[GrumpyDave]

Here's the whole photo from the national archives:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6451/rollcallnq4.jpg (http://imageshack.us);)

No, that's not it.

Yea, that's it:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2745/camppetersburg1864db8.jpg (http://imageshack.us):p

[JennaLeigh]

Ok, I have actually done a lot of research on period correct oil lamps for CIVILIANS of the time.

Oil lamps have been around since well before the bronze age. Kerosene came into use during the 1850'3 The most common oil lamps of the period were made of three materials and had three parts. The base, which is usually marble. The mid section which is normally a metal. And the globe which is glass, but not molded glass. There may be other types that I am not aware of but through my research this is all that I have found.
http://www.oillampparts.com/beehive1_t.jpg

I actually purcheased mine like this, which are originals, off of ebay for $30 a piece and got the replacement parts for $7/lamp on another site.

[2nd_mi_johnny]

I have one and I love it, though I wish I knew more about the context of their use and how common they would be, especially among civilians, outside of the usual suspects: policemen, detectives, etc.

I know this one from of all places my uncle who i a historian who specifies in MINING TECH. Dark Lamps were one of the many inventions which were designed primarally for working in mines. Its one of those things that some interprizing individual came to realize that he could modify it to fit onto buggies as alight sorce for night travel, and to fit other facets of civilian night jobs.

[hanktrent]

I know this one from of all places my uncle who i a historian who specifies in MINING TECH. Dark Lamps were one of the many inventions which were designed primarally for working in mines. Its one of those things that some interprizing individual came to realize that he could modify it to fit onto buggies as alight sorce for night travel, and to fit other facets of civilian night jobs.

Out of curiousity, when were they invented for mine use? I know their use in the 1860s for policemen was very common, and in popular writing they were most often associated with policemen and night watchmen.

I can see that the lens portion would be helpful for mines and buggy lamps, where you needed as much light as possible thrown in a certain direction, but what would be the purpose of the shutter in mines and for buggies to make them go dark? Or do you mean just the lens portion was invented for mining use?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[2nd_mi_johnny]

Out of curiousity, when were they invented for mine use? I know their use in the 1860s for policemen was very common, and in popular writing they were most often associated with policemen and night watchmen.

I can see that the lens portion would be helpful for mines and buggy lamps, where you needed as much light as possible thrown in a certain direction, but what would be the purpose of the shutter in mines and for buggies to make them go dark? Or do you mean just the lens portion was invented for mining use?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

I asked my Uncle on the phone just a moment ago and he said the ability to darken them was something unique to the civilian and police use models. The Lense in dark lamps is what was invented for minors, and the only real differance between a dark lamp and a miners lamp is that A Miners lamp could burn both candle or whale oil (There was a little tin insert to hold a candle stick that slid in on groves just above the oil receptical) and also the shutter that was later added for the police men. He also said in Later models Mines made use of the shutter technology with Red tinted or green tinted glass as a substatute for the metalic shutters that would make the light go dark. This was used for miners to be taught Moris code and in a predisesery nature to what the Navy did with ship lights, men could pass messages back and forth in a chain in parts of the mine where it was too hazardous because of the nature of explossives, to un an electrically charged line for Telegraph corrispondence. This was short lived how ever for much the same way that if you say something at one end of a line of kids, by the other end of the line of kids, the responding message is very differant from what the starting one is. Even a minor deviation from the origianally intended message could have diar conciquenses. If the mine boss is telling the guy on the other end to 'blow two sticks of dinomite in mine shaft ten, and the guy gets the message to blow ten sticks of dinomyte in mine shaft two.. you can see where this would cause problems. The Mining organazations found that it was more cost effective to spend the same price for the more primitive Miners lamps, and hire a runner for five cents a day to deliver messages, then it was to buy the modefied dark lamps at no extra cost and rely on the miners to back and forth messages.

[Scooby_308]

Whale oil burning lamps:
http://www.ramshornstudio.com/early_lighting_6.htm
http://collectlamps.com/whale%20oil%20lamps.html

Betty Lamps:
http://collectlamps.com/fat%20betty%20lamps.html

Lard Lamps (1850’s):
http://collectlamps.com/lard%20lamps.html

Fluid burning lamps:
http://collectlamps.com/burning%20fluid%20lamps.html

CHECK THIS OUT (A MUST):
http://www.lamptrader.com/

Edited to add:
The last link gives pictures of the lamps and patent dates. Follow the links along the side to get to the type you are looking for.

Edited again to add correct link.

[billwatson2]

While browsing the J. Peterman site for a few trifles, I found what they are calling a "nautical hurricane lantern." It is remarkably like some of the early lamps under discussion in this thread, so I thought I'd pass it on. (http://jpeterman.com/product~cat~191209~sku~NCL+C188.asp)

There may be at least one of us out there who can afford it.....

Wonderful catalog. You'd need to be Bill Gates to actually use it....

Maybe we could pool our resources, buy one of these, then contract it out in Pakistan to reverse engineer it and make them available to reenactors for $49.99? Only have to sell a hundred or so to recoup the time and trouble....

[Julio C. Zangroniz]

Esteemed Mr. Watson,
There's a Confederate reenactor who lives in the Richmond, VA area who, in real life, earns his living as a commercial diver.
Once upon a time, while doing a job for someone else, he "felt" something in the murky depths of a channel that seemed strangely out of place and brought the object to the surface.
It was one of those "globe" whaling lanterns. The glass globe had a hole "about the size of a baseball," he told me, but otherwise, it was fairly intact.
You can see an exact copy of one of those lanterns in the famous cartoon published during the Civil War era where Abraham Lincoln is being smuggled by train through "enemy territory" in Maryland.
The reproduction lantern maker, a fellow by the name of Bill Waldrop, whose photo appears in the July 12 space in my 1998 photo calendar, along with his lanterns, still manufactures them, and still sells them, and for a lot less than what is quoted in the source you mention.
Julio

[Spinster]

Now you've done it Mr. Watson.

Those people also have a wind up rotisserie

[billwatson2]

Boredom on a rainy Sunday is a terrible, terrible thing. :-)

"Those people." Isn't that what Lee called the Yankee army? :-)))