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bgent
01-27-2009, 01:26 PM
where oh where can I buy raw tapioca pearls to make my opium pills ??????????? It sems all my supermarkets look at me like im from mars

funhistory
01-27-2009, 01:52 PM
Where are you located? I buy mine at the supermarket. It's in the pudding aisle with the "instant" tapioca product. The brand is "Reese", and it comes in a re-sealable pouch.

"Doc" Nelson
01-27-2009, 03:07 PM
bgent,
If you don't find them in the grocery store, there's always the internet. But, they should be in the grocery store.

The employees look at you like you're from mars cuz, they're not required to know anything to work. I love it when, you go to a store and someone else comes in and asks where something is, and the employee says "huh?" as you happen to be right nearby . . and, you pipe up and explain what isle and shelf said item is on. Its not like it was 20 years ago where, one was required to know where things were in the store . . LOL

bgent
01-27-2009, 04:31 PM
I reside in the second largest city in new jersey and went to the largest supermarket here---------(nope) I did a search on the net googled Raw tapioca seems everything is all instant this n that ----------- heck I could score dope faster then the tapioca

If anyone has acess to this id be happy to pay the costs n shipping I need enough for 3 jars 3x3.5

funhistory
01-27-2009, 06:22 PM
Sir:

My guess would be that you didn't go to the right store. Reese large pearl tapioca (a product of Brazil) can be ordered on-line directly from them. The site is www.worldfiner.com/reese/html.

World Finer Foods, Inc., is headquartered in Bloomfield, NJ, which makes your difficulty even stranger and slightly humorous. Perhaps a call to World Finer and an explanation of your local quest might even send their salesman to your supermarket in person. For the quantity that you project to fill your "show" bottles, one package (6 or 7 oz) will be adequate. You should prepare according to directions and eat the remainder. The pudding is quite tasty.

If you'd like instructions on converting the tapioca to "pills", let me know at museum3@msn.com or you may wait for Noah Briggs to release his revised Pharmacy Notes. I sent my instructions to him to be included as an appendix in the next edition.

bgent
01-27-2009, 06:26 PM
wow thanks Bloomfield is less then a 1/2 hour away
Ill give em a call or even go there
thanks loads Im greatful

NoahBriggs
01-28-2009, 12:12 AM
In a previous thread I though we had confirmed that whole peppercorns will do the trick, and they can be had on the spice rack. Unless I'm missing something here, which is always possible due to my latent idiocy.

Shave with Occam's Razor, please.

bgent
01-28-2009, 12:42 AM
nahhhhhhh the mind hasnt gone yet Noah I also would like to bottle up some blue mass and quine pills

fred franze
01-28-2009, 07:58 AM
I get mine down here in Delaware at a store called Byler's which is west of Dover. They have a wealth of this kind of stuff in bulk, great source fr this stuff. They cater to the Amish community amoung others. The Amish make most of their stuff from scratch.
Fred Franze :D

hta1970
01-28-2009, 03:29 PM
Are you portraying a Confederate or Federal Surgeon?

If Confederate, what evidence do you have that Blue Mass was issued or stored in pill form?

Also what evidence do you have that Quinine Sulphate was issued in pill form?

I have plenty of evidence to counter your assertions, but none to support them.

Of course this only applies to Confederate Surgeons.

bgent
01-29-2009, 06:15 PM
I protray confederate They may have had then early on and later used herbal remedies or substitutes as the war went on but------------
Could you say medicine was never stolen, procured, traded or bought (black market) ? I believe shady deals have been going on since the dawn of time. Like today if you have cash or something valuable to another anything can be had . Would you concur? Most surgeons came from wealthy families who certianly would have helped where they could if the surgeon himself couldnt have gotton it one way or another.

NoahBriggs
01-29-2009, 07:12 PM
Brace yourself, bgent, you are about to get a documented education on how the Confederate medical service really worked.

bgent
01-29-2009, 07:55 PM
while I respect your opinion I do know human nature. Enough said thanks for the concern tho. For reference I do have the herbal remedy as well.

hta1970
01-29-2009, 08:30 PM
Bill,

Sorry if i came off caustic. My appologies. I had a bad moment and shouldn't have been so rough.

But do get that book, "A Darkness Ablaze." It will make your job much easier following by following his example for medicines and constructing a patient register.

"Doc" Nelson
01-29-2009, 08:31 PM
bgent,
May I also recommend a book? "Doctor to the Front: The Recollections of Confederate Surgeon Thomas Fanning Wood, 1861-1865". This book is a compilation of his memoirs during the war. He explains what difficulties he faced procuring medicine, equipment, etc. as an Assistant Surgeon. At various times, he was the only medical officer with the 3rd NC Infantry. Very good reading . . I thought.

bgent
01-29-2009, 08:45 PM
thank you all as soon as I can i plan to purchase additional literature to bone up further. Right now the money tree is severly drought ridden LOL although I plan to visit my old med school here in jersey they have a seperate libary room dedicated to medicine back to the 1700s


UMDNJ newark New Jersey

NoahBriggs
01-29-2009, 08:58 PM
Since you're broke like everyone else in the country may I also suggest Google Books. Twenty thousand dollars of original medical manuals under my belt - for free! A smorgasbord of primary information which has done wonders for my impression, and they are the books I cite when I'm posting.

I think I posted my biblio early on when the list first started, and a lot of the references are links to the Google books manuals.

bgent
01-30-2009, 06:34 AM
free is good

hanktrent
01-30-2009, 08:52 AM
It also occurs to me that "herbal remedies" needs some better definition before we can really discuss it. All the following could be classified as herbal remedies (derived from plants):

morphine
dogwood bark
a homeopathic solution of aconite
Brandreth's Universal Vegetable Pills
Thomsonian No. 6

Yet even with no more information than that, we could guess at the very different kinds of persons who would typically recommend each. A Confederate surgeon using substitutes would only be a typical guess for the second one.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Regimental_Officer
01-30-2009, 04:44 PM
I never really chime in the middle of a thread, However you told the lad to read "A Darkness Ablaze" by Joseph Kinyoun Houts, Jr. well if thats the case then you must be a believer of "Company aych" By Sam Watkins! You cannot believe everything you read more so from veterans who wrote books years after their service when they are in their 70's and 80's. Same goes for Berry Benson his book was ripped apart as well when most of the information was inaccurate. I do not feel the lad was "Making up history" because there are things we just don't know. If it was plausable then chances are it did happen. Just because you read a few books and pressed your face against glass to see medical equipment does not make you a leading authority on civil war medicine and certainly does not give you the right to fire off the way you did. That is a poor attitude for the people in the forum and those in this hobby and may i recommend a book for you it's called Websters dictionary it's spelled "Remedies" not "Remidies"

hanktrent
01-30-2009, 08:56 PM
You cannot believe everything you read more so from veterans who wrote books years after their service when they are in their 70's and 80's.

I haven't read the book, but did you notice what Harry said?


Though the book is very poorly written by a descendant of the officer, it contains several pages of photographs of the regimental patient register as well as semi-annual inventories of his medicine supplies for June 62 thought December 64. This would be a good starting point which shows not only supplies on hand, but what was requisitions over the 6 month period and what was used over that period.

He's talking about images of medical inventories actually taken during the war. If we reject those as sources too untrustworthy to believe, there's not much left.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

"Doc" Nelson
01-31-2009, 03:09 AM
You cannot believe everything you read more so from veterans who wrote books years after their service when they are in their 70's and 80's.
I have to disagree with you on this. We use allot of period medical manuals. If we're to "not believe in" these . . what do we do, make everything up? These manuals were written for that period, for those reasons (i.e. battlefield medicine). Unfortunately, not allot of Confederate Medical Corps records survived the War (in fact, most of them were destroyed when Richmond fell) so, we have to rely on other sources of information to assist us in our impressions (i.e. what period medical manuals are out there, period photos *as Harry pointed out*, historical documents, personal accounts, etc.). Now, as for personal memoirs, I agree, no one should take them for the "bible" on period battlefield medicine. These are another source, to give some kind of a reference. As for the particular memoir . . well, it just depends. If for nothing else, it might be good reading. Besides, I wasn't there, who am I to dispute it, unless there are historical facts to prove its validity (or, lack of).


I do not feel the lad was "Making up history" because there are things we just don't know. If it was plausable then chances are it did happen.
Again, lets take a look at period medical manuals (Confederate or Union . . it doesn't matter). Let's see what they say. Yes, the Confederate Medical Corps faced a tougher job of procuring medicines, not to mention equipment that, later on in the war, some Confederate Surgeons resorted to herbal remedies. What I think Harry was trying to do was, try to convey that, just make sure you back up what you do with historical facts. Don't just do it because you think it might have been done.


Just because you read a few books and pressed your face against glass to see medical equipment does not make you a leading authority on civil war medicine and certainly does not give you the right to fire off the way you did.
Harry did apologize. I think that this needs to be between hta1970 and bgent. As for the "just because you read a few books", I know Harry does allot of research, to ensure his impression is accurate, as per historical facts (data, photos, records, reports, manuals, etc.).


That is a poor attitude for the people in the forum and those in this hobby and may i recommend a book for you it's called Websters dictionary it's spelled "Remedies" not "Remidies"
The reason some of us get upset is, we are here to teach history . . correctly. Not some "well, they might have done that" or "they may have used that" kind of attitude. I would not recommend doing anything or, using anything unless one has the historical facts to support it. If you have nothing to support it, you're doing nothing but distorting the truth to others.

bgent
01-31-2009, 10:00 AM
It also occurs to me that "herbal remedies" needs some better definition before we can really discuss it. All the following could be classified as herbal remedies (derived from plants):

morphine
dogwood bark
a homeopathic solution of aconite
Brandreth's Universal Vegetable Pills
Thomsonian No. 6

Yet even with no more information than that, we could guess at the very different kinds of persons who would typically recommend each. A Confederate surgeon using substitutes would only be a typical guess for the second one.

hanktrent@voyager.net



I looked for a sudguestion in the forum here that any surgeon using herbal mediicine would have been dismissed I hope im wrong tho and if so appologise. I refuse to stir up a hornets nest nor insult anyone. What im simply trying to do is present to the public while having fun in this hobby -My interpetation of my chosen field . I get a chuckle out of a South Park eposode where rather then step out of character they were executed by terrorists, who took over the encampment.
I think we all get very pashionet here in this hobby but we should remeber that it is after all a hobby and we to relax, enjoy and have fun with it becuse when it stops being fun perhaps its time to take a break or walk away. Ive been on the field when it became a bit too real.

Sorry to digress here. My purpose is not to distort history or present false facts but as a formor PA there were often times when unorthodox methods proved much a sucess. Some proceedures worked for most but not all. Guess thats what seperates the proverbel men from the boys thing. And so knowing human nature you all would agree that this was prob the normal back then too. I also found in my education days that the book was a good source of information although not to be quoted directly or as etched in stone. A book after all is the writers own thoughts and not necessarly again the norm. Guess it takes me back to my New England days "**** if it worked" thing. Or why I read few books - but know I should.
Addressing the spending of person funds
As a parent of 2 children we all would, help out where we could if it be monetary controbutions or pressuring the local political wheel. so I would safely say back then they did the same. Allso Generals back then relied heavely on their surgeons to keep the armyon its foot (Questionable) im sure each general had his favorate through connections and if they wanted something they got it . Again written I think not so I guess because it had no supporting evidence it never happened. I ask anyone here that has been in the Armed Service have you seen this behavior?

this is taken from the csa field manual cc medical supplies. Reading further I found procurement outside the norm if they could not get the supplies only if they used regulation forms 5 and 6 which I will research further in dupuplicate.

The articles of this Supply Table are intended as adjuncts to, or substitutes for those of the original Supply Tables of the Regulations for the Medical Department.
When the articles of the original Supply Tables cannot be procured from the Purveyors, or when they are deficient in quantity, Medical Officers are instructed to make requisition for such indigenous preparations from the following table as will supply the deficiencies.
The interests of the government which they serve, and the importance of relying upon the internal resources of their own country, should prompt the adoption, as far as practicable, of these remedies as substitutes for articles which now can be obtained only by importation.
As much care has been taken in the collection and preparation of these remedies, in order that they might be recommended in form as well as quality, it is hoped that Medical Officers will lay aside all prejudice which may exist in their minds against their use, and will give them a fair opportunity for the exhibition of those remedial virtues which they certainly possess.
Much reliable information on this subject may be obtained from the work on Medical Botany, entitled "Resources of the Southern Fields and Forests," prepared by Surgeon F. P. Porcher, P. A. C. S., under instructions from this office.


In closing I really do thank all for your points of information and I will take them under consideration and sorry for any spelling mistakes LOL.
I really do look foward to talking with those i meet along the way

hanktrent
01-31-2009, 10:39 AM
I looked for a sudguestion in the forum here that any surgeon using herbal mediicine would have been dismissed I hope im wrong tho

Again, I'd ask, how are you defining herbal medicine? Taken literally--medicine derived from herbs--it makes no sense. A surgeon would be dismissed for using laudanum or belladonna or ipecac? What logic are you using to even suspect that?

Again, what do you mean when you say "herbal medicine"?


What im simply trying to do is present to the public while having fun in this hobby

I think that's what most folks here are doing, but for some, researching and trying their best to get it right is what's fun. Sometimes not caring about things isn't more fun, it's boring, and being told not to care isn't helpful, it's annoying. Not everyone defines "fun" the same way. (Kinda like defining "herbal medicine," LOL!)


there were often times when unorthodox methods proved much a sucess. Some proceedures worked for most but not all . Guess thats what seperates the proverbel men from the boys thing. And so knowing human nature you all would agree that this was prob the normal back then too.

And it can be documented, also. If reenactors/historians are going to set themselves up as educators, I'd rather see them start by researching, and then filling in the gaps by speculating.

As you say, books (and medical journals and letters and diaries and any written artifacts from the period) contain writers' own thoughts, so one can find many examples of individuals who proposed or used treatments that were out of the norm. Problem is, one has to do enough research first to know what the norm was, before one can recognize what was unusual.

In my list of herbal medicines in the post above, there are three that I do think a military surgeon would be looked down upon by many of his colleagues for using, but not because they were derived from herbs. Can you tell what they are and how another surgeon might criticize their use and how someone who used them might defend them? To me, that would be a lot of fun. Heck, I'll take either side--somebody jump in in first person and let's have a go at it. :)

Yes, I'm speculating. But I'm speculating based on research about those medicines and about medical viewpoints from the period.



The articles of this Supply Table are intended as adjuncts to, or substitutes for those of the original Supply Tables of the Regulations for the Medical Department.
When the articles of the original Supply Tables cannot be procured from the Purveyors, or when they are deficient in quantity, Medical Officers are instructed to make requisition for such indigenous preparations from the following table as will supply the deficiencies.


Now we're getting somewhere. The key issue is the bolded part. The question is, how often did surgeons actually need to rely on indigenous medicines? In what areas and times? We see the ads in the newspapers asking for local individuals to supply these medicines. But how many people actually brought the items in and received pay? How often did these items show up in the field, and when and where?

That's one place that surgeon's letters and diaries, period inventories taken at the time, and so forth, can answer the question. If a surgeon's inventory indicates he has plenty of quinine, he won't need to be looking for dogwood bark. If the inventory is low on quinine and high on dogwood bark, we can speculate what's going on. And so forth for the various medicines and substitutes.

I know that Harry has done a lot of research on this topic. Not sure what Noah's done on it, since he's been more focussed on U.S. Army medicine. I've spent more time on civilian medicine, so haven't looked at military supply lines.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

"Doc" Nelson
01-31-2009, 12:04 PM
Thank you Hank. Very well stated.

Regimental_Officer
01-31-2009, 01:24 PM
If you read what i wrote i never stated anything about manuals or any government issued books. My statement was clearly about memoirs and recollections. I did see the apology, however i did not see it in the first time i looked. If we were to believe every memoir that came out i think all our impressions would be differen't and instead of looking like soldiers we would look alot like a 100 john waynes running around. I'm not saying that all memoirs were not truthful but the truth can and was stretched to be able to sell the book.

NoahBriggs
01-31-2009, 02:43 PM
I think to what you refer above, Spoonie, can be called "bias". Memories are subjective, and other pieces of information accrued long after the event can (intentionally or not) become incorporated into the person's original memory.


Bias is not a bad thing. I thin the idea here we should learn is that we should understand bias is out there, we should remember that and take it into account. Bias helps you understand why people thought the way they did in context, which in turn helps to understand the overall topic better.

Example:
Currently I am reading Ten Years in the US Army by Augustus Meyers. The summary is, the years 1854 - 64 in the Army, from basic training as a fifer on Governors Island, NY to his service until discharge in 1864. I am reading it to give myself a "pre-war Army frontier memories" for a character for a future event. The book covers in detail Army life - pay, pranks, uniforms, parades, procedures, transit from one post to another, life inside post hospitals where applicable and so on.

I take into account the story is from the point of view of an infantry musician and a surgeon might take a different route and have different experiences. I take into account the author was a child at the time, and may not have known some things an adult officer might have known. His reports on the hospitals and health care are very negative, which is correct for the era. As medical researchers we may know something he does not and could "fill in the blanks" with our experiences/research.

I take everything he's written with a grain of salt, but also I found myself laughing out loud at some of the details he includes that could only come from someone who had been there - stuffing paper or rags in your buddy's fife so he cannot play at parade. A drill instructor's frustration with the awkward squads. I take all that info and sort through it in my mind to help me create a detailed background for my character, mixing it in with interesting/unusual procedures I've read in the manuals to create a character who had served out in the sticks, treated wounds and disease, and otherwise sounds like a veteran.

The whole Confederate supply situation has been skewed by the "lost cause" bias which makes it look like the South was scouring the woods for immediate remedies in raw form, such as dandelion roots and the like in abject desperation and poverty. As Harry indicated, Confederate supply was actually better than the lost cause apologists would have one believe - limited domestic production, smuggling, and supplies captured from yankee supply trains, or contributions from the general populace were turned over to the purveyors, who distributed the supplies as needed. Were times tight? Sure. But the supplies got through.

Jas. Cox
02-06-2009, 06:25 PM
And that my friends is where one can purchase raw tapioca pearls ...

I (my wife) picked up whole peppercorns as Noah had previously suggested. Tiny little buggers.