Reparations - Again

[FloridaConfederate]

And here it is.....
[http://www.congress.org/congressorg/...z?c111:H.R.40]

Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act (Introduced in House)
HR 40 IH
111th CONGRESS 1st Session H. R. 40
To acknowledge the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery in the United States and the 13 American colonies between 1619 and 1865 and to establish a commission to examine the institution of slavery, subsequently de jure and de facto racial and economic discrimination against African-Americans, and the impact of these forces on living African-Americans, to make recommendations to the Congress on appropriate remedies, and for other purposes.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
January 6, 2009

Mr. CONYERS (for himself and Mr. SCOTT of Virginia) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
A BILL
To acknowledge the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery in the United States and the 13 American colonies between 1619 and 1865 and to establish a commission to examine the institution of slavery, subsequently de jure and de facto racial and economic discrimination against African-Americans, and the impact of these forces on living African-Americans, to make recommendations to the Congress on appropriate remedies, and for other purposes.
•Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
•This Act may be cited as the `Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act'.
SEC. 2. FINDINGS AND PURPOSE.
•(a) Findings- The Congress finds that––
•
o(1) approximately 4,000,000 Africans and their descendants were enslaved in the United States and colonies that became the United States from 1619 to 1865;
•
o(2) the institution of slavery was constitutionally and statutorily sanctioned by the Government of the United States from 1789 through 1865;
•
o(3) the slavery that flourished in the United States constituted an immoral and inhumane deprivation of Africans' life, liberty, African citizenship rights, and cultural heritage, and denied them the fruits of their own labor; and
•
o(4) sufficient inquiry has not been made into the effects of the institution of slavery on living African-Americans and society in the United States.
•(b) Purpose- The purpose of this Act is to establish a commission to––
•
o(1) examine the institution of slavery which existed from 1619 through 1865 within the United States and the colonies that became the United States, including the extent to which the Federal and State Governments constitutionally and statutorily supported the institution of slavery;
•
o(2) examine de jure and de facto discrimination against freed slaves and their descendants from the end of the Civil War to the present, including economic, political, and social discrimination;
•
o(3) examine the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery and the discrimination described in paragraph (2) on living African-Americans and on society in the United States;
•
o(4) recommend appropriate ways to educate the American public of the Commission's findings;
•
o(5) recommend appropriate remedies in consideration of the Commission's findings on the matters described in paragraphs (1) and (2); and
•
o(6) submit to the Congress the results of such examination, together with such recommendations.
SEC. 3. ESTABLISHMENT AND DUTIES.
•(a) Establishment- There is established the Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans (hereinafter in this Act referred to as the `Commission').
•(b) Duties- The Commission shall perform the following duties:
•
o(1) Examine the institution of slavery which existed within the United States and the colonies that became the United States from 1619 through 1865. The Commission's examination shall include an examination of––
•
o
(A) the capture and procurement of Africans;
•
o
(B) the transport of Africans to the United States and the colonies that became the United States for the purpose of enslavement, including their treatment during transport;
•
o
(C) the sale and acquisition of Africans as chattel property in interstate and instrastate commerce; and
•
o
(D) the treatment of African slaves in the colonies and the United States, including the deprivation of their freedom, exploitation of their labor, and destruction of their culture, language, religion, and families.
•
o(2) Examine the extent to which the Federal and State governments of the United States supported the institution of slavery in constitutional and statutory provisions, including the extent to which such governments prevented, opposed, or restricted efforts of freed African slaves to repatriate to their homeland.
•
o(3) Examine Federal and State laws that discriminated against freed African slaves and their descendants during the period between the end of the Civil War and the present.
•
o(4) Examine other forms of discrimination in the public and private sectors against freed African slaves and their descendants during the period between the end of the Civil War and the present.
•
o(5) Examine the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery and the matters described in paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4) on living African-Americans and on society in the United States.
•
•(6) Recommend appropriate ways to educate the American public of the Commission's findings.
o(7) Recommend appropriate remedies in consideration of the Commission's findings on the matters described in paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4). In making such recommendations, the Commission shall address among other issues, the following questions:
•
o
(A) Whether the Government of the United States should offer a formal apology on behalf of the people of the United States for the perpetration of gross human rights violations on African slaves and their descendants.
•
o
(B) Whether African-Americans still suffer from the lingering effects of the matters described in paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4).
•
o
(C) Whether, in consideration of the Commission's findings, any form of compensation to the descendants of African slaves is warranted.
•
o
(D) If the Commission finds that such compensation is warranted, what should be the amount of compensation, what form of compensation should be awarded, and who should be eligible for such compensation.
(c) Report to Congress- The Commission shall submit a written report of its findings and recommendations to the Congress not later than the date which is one year after the date of the first meeting of the Commission held pursuant to section 4(c).

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Yep, it was already said - open up the checkbook. If the government is willing to give billions to corrupt companies, you just know it'll serve it up to the agrieved people.

["Doc" Nelson]

HR 40 IH
111th CONGRESS 1st Session H. R. 40 [/SIZE][/B]

H*ll, then darn near every country needs to open up their checkbooks . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade.

The only reason this crap happens in this country today is, because of bleeding heart liberals!!

Well sh*t, maybe I need to petition Congress and, have them approve "remedies" for my Cherokee ancestors being forcibly removed from their Native lands in Northern Georgia by the US Government. Then, I would make the government apologize for what they had done to my GGGG Grandmother, GGG Grandfather and GG Grandmother.

[David Meister]

Amen

from one doc to another who just happens to have Cherokee in him also

My goodness how my threads change subjects so

[sustudent]

Gents,
This is definately a very touchy issue. One question that came to mind after reading the bill was: Would ancestors of veterans that served in the United States Military during the American Civil War be exempt from these "remedies"? Not meant to be a source or instigation. But I would think that the death of Union soldiers would mean something to the politicians looking to recognize the full effect of slavery. Who knows? Personally, it seems unlikely that such a bill would get too far off the ground.

Regards,
Alex Stowe

[tompritchett]

Reenactor Hat:

If I remember correctly, this is not the first time that the subject of reparations for descendants of former slaves has been raised in a bill introduced in Congress. Remember, there are several steps that must be completed before anything in this bill can become law. First, it must be voted on by an appropriate committee (and possibly prior to that a subcommittee) on whether it should be brought to the floor of the House. After that it must actually be approved by the leadership to be brought to a vote of the full House and, of course, then be approved by that vote. And then the same procedure on a companion bill musgt occur in the Senate. I strongly suspect that, with everything else going on in this country right now, this bill will never be passed as written by the current session of Congress. Subsections 7(C) & 7(D) IMHO have a snowball's chance in H*** of surviving the above process while subsection 7(A) would definitely generate an appreciable amount of debate but could possibly make it to the final version if the bill ever reachs the House floor.

Moderator Hat:

Be advised this whole topic is borderline on the subject of modern politics. Therefore keep your comments isolated to the issue of reparations and comments that have been made by specific public officials. Any attempts to generalize this issue into rants about for or against political parties as wells as comments about the recent inauguration will be deleted.

[bizzilizzit]

Would ancestors of veterans that served in the United States Military during the American Civil War be exempt from these "remedies"?

What about those of us whose relatives did not migrate to the US until AFTER the civil war?

What about those of us who have NO IDEA when their ancestors arrived in the US?

[hanktrent]

(B) the transport of Africans to the United States and the colonies that became the United States for the purpose of enslavement

The first thing that occurred to me when I read that was, let's offer a free first-class ticket back to Africa for any descendant who was born in this country due to having ancestors transported here, but who wishes he/she was born in Africa instead. I'm evil. But jeez, you can see how the Colonization Society got started by liberals trying to do this kind of thing.


o(2) Examine the extent to which the Federal and State governments of the United States supported the institution of slavery in constitutional and statutory provisions, including the extent to which such governments prevented, opposed, or restricted efforts of freed African slaves to repatriate to their homeland.

Um, whoa, what? They are talking about the Colonization Society?! If you were against in the 19th century, you're gonna get dinged today? What? I thought most people today concluded it was the wrong solution.

As published, that's an amazing example of looking at abolitionists' efforts in the context of their time, without passing modern judgment, and giving abolitionists credit for doing what they thought was right even if we think it was wrong.


o(5) Examine the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery and the matters described in paragraphs (1), (2), (3), and (4) on living African-Americans and on society in the United States.

Personally, I think that's where they should start and stop. If it doesn't affect living Americans, it's moot.

However, it sounds like this is just another proposal to begin to think about starting to talk about reparations, with a long way to go before anything actually happens, with still that sticky problem to overcome: how much black slave blood does it take to be a slave descendant, and how much white blood does it take to negate it? Are Sally Hemmings' descendants going to get screwed again, because they're only half (or by now less than half) descended from slaves, and therefore mostly non-slave descendants and not eligible?

Here's my prediction. In the unlikely chance any money ever does get thrown at the issue, it'll be broadly demographic, inoffensive, inexpensive, and maybe even useful: say you're sorry, build some inner city schools, and be done with it.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Scooby_308]

I agree Hank, what % black should you be? So immigrants of African descent post War are not included? That may be a hard sell. After all, treatment of blacks was just as bad even though they were free after the War (and one could argue that slavery tainted the view of blacks to this day which would lead to prejudicial treatment of all blacks).


How about we just give everyone that filed a tax return last year $250,000? Let them spend that money to pay off housing loans, buy new cars, and pump up the economy. We could use the billions of $$$ in bailout money for the banks and car companies. There would probably be plenty left over (plus the fact that the economy would be back on its feet) to fund projects to help slave descendants instead of reparations.

[MDRebCAv]

My G-grandmom used to tell me that she was a cousin of Wil Rogers...She was part Cherokee and her maiden name was Dolly May Rogers.


Amen

from one doc to another who just happens to have Cherokee in him also

My goodness how my threads change subjects so

[Pvt Schnapps]

It sounds like the only people interested in this bill besides Rep. Conyers are the folks who delight in taking offense at it.

A few points seem worth mentioning. It was first introduced in 1989, and hasn't generated much support since then:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c101:hr3745:

Second, it never even got out of committee:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-40

Here's a partial history:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-40&tab=related

It's also worth noting that the bill simply calls for a commission to study reparations proposals. As Hank points out, the very most likely to come out of that would be something inoffensive and at most marginally effective.

Of far greater interest to this board, it seems to me, would be a discussion of compensated emancipation. So far as I know, that only happened in the District of Columbia. What was the problem with everywhere else? Wouldn't it have been cheaper than the war?

Also, if we have to chat about the present day, has anyone calculated the current value of 40 acres and a mule?

Just wondering...

[tompritchett]

I agree Hank, what % black should you be?

And then there is the issue of what if one of your black ancestor also owned slaves.

[sbl]

Elizabeth I can understand how you feel. Half my folks ate "colonial" and half Ellis Island, and my dad was always against sympathetic to minorities having worked and served with them in WW II.

I don't think this is going to happen so I'm not going to get upset about it. My emotional response is that the United States government paid for pre civil war slavery by winning the Civil War. If a case can be made for the post-war "legal" involuntary servitude of convicts that benefited corporations that still exist, then fine.

I haven't read this book but I have heard the author speak on the subject several times.

Slavery By Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II (Paperback)
by Douglas A. Blackmon (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Slavery-Another-Name-Re-Enslavement-Americans/dp/0385722702/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232641091&sr=1-1#sipbody

[Pvt Schnapps]

Anyone interested in reading Conyers' rationale will find it here:

http://conyers.house.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Issues.Home&Issue_id=06007167-19b9-b4b1-125c-df3de5ec97f8

To answer my own earlier question about the value of 40 acres and a mule, if we assume the 1864 value of a mule to be $150 (trust me on this), then the current worth (regardless of what a mule costs today) would range from about $2,000 to more than $200,000, depending:

$2,042.11 using the Consumer Price Index
$1,722.27 using the GDP deflator
using the value of consumer bundle *
$17,771.74 using the unskilled wage *
$24,920.77 using the nominal GDP per capita
$218,997.17 using the relative share of GDP

See: http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/result.php

As for the cost of farmland, the following site estimates an average cost of some $4,000 an acre in Iowa: http://www.landmarketer.com/Home/DetailNewsPage/tabid/87/Default.aspx?DocumentId=207&IsDetail=true

The cost has pretty much doubled since 2000, in part due to ethanol.

Taking everything into account, the value in today's dollar of the old promise of 40 acres and a mule would range from a low of a little over $80,000 (assuming the lowest cost for a mule and the 2000 value of Iowa farmland), to a high of about $380,000 (assuming the cost of a mule as a share of GDP and the 2007 value of Iowa farmland).

If you split the difference, $250,000 a household doesn't seem that far out of line. ;)

[sbl]

"If you split the difference, $250,000 a household doesn't seem that far out of line."

Think of the boost to the economy with that cash in consumer's hands! ;) I was supposed to change the economy with my $600. :(

[Shortround]

I've ruffled Tom's feathers quite a bit back in October. Now that the elections are done I don't care to get into the weird political debates.

Honestly, looking at this debate from a Constitutional view and it's borderline mutant. Congress can't pass expo-facto laws. But the Constitution is pretty much dead now days so who cares?

My degree is in business and finance. If you're into nightmares then read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Great-Depression-Debt-Survival-Techniques/dp/0470423714/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232646950&sr=1-2

America of 1861 to 1865 would be as alien to most reenactors as being on Mars. We have speech codes and such a thing didn't exist in the C.W. We view rich people as greedy or corrupt in 2009. In the 1860s you would have been told you're breaking the 10th Commandment. We have instant communications devices, aircraft, cars, and a world nearly with out want by 1860s standards. But if you had gone up to those people and told them the price: corrupted religion, an impossible debt, viewing your nation as evil, and the rest of the price of progress then I wonder if they would have taken America of 1861 or America of 2009.

So, give the ex-slaves money. It does not matter. The currency is mere fiat and backed up by nothing. We have trillions of dollars of debt a year and the government does not care. The aggregate debt of Federal, state, local governments, private business, and individuals is estimated to be over 50 Trillion dollars.

Now, a prudent person would stock up on a year's worth of food, water, and have a place to run because the future is absolutely the most scary that I've ever seen. And I remember the days of the giant Soviet bear.

Forgive my rant, Tom. But it's weird that the bottom line problems of the Civil War still has not passed to this day.

[Pvt Schnapps]

We view rich people as greedy or corrupt in 2009. In the 1860s you would have been told you're breaking the 10th Commandment.

Not by this guy... http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/ArticlesWillich.htm

[Scooby_308]

Now, a prudent person would stock up on a year's worth of food, water, and have a place to run because the future is absolutely the most scary that I've ever seen. And I remember the days of the giant Soviet bear.



I agree with you.

[Pvt Schnapps]

I agree with you.

Then, according to this, you must both be political conservatives, and thus easily frightened: http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/fearmongering-h.html

It would be interesting to know how the population broke down in 1861. Back then we ended up going to war not so much because of what Lincoln did, as what some folks thought he was going to do.

If white men in the south were generally more fearful than those in the north -- perhaps because of the combination of nervousness about servile insurrection and outright fearmongering by their leaders -- then I think we have a better explanation of the phenomenon of secession than that provided by vague references to "southern rights" or other such causes.

Not that there's anything wrong with your current plans. If enough people go out and start buying MREs and ammo, we may get a stimulus package going well before Congress gets around to acting.

So thank you, citizen! :)

[Poor Private]

I agree with Scooby and Shortround. A person doesn't have to be a conservative or any other label for that matter to see whats what. I am 3/4 on the way with my years supply. And Like stated above my family was not here during the civil war we were still back in Germany, running our own barony in Westphalia. My famliy came to the great midwest by covered wagons at the turn of the last century(20th).

[ScottWashburn]

Hey, what's the big deal? The bill is calling for a COMMISSION! You know what that means: years of collecting data and listening to 'experts' and then finally a report that no one will pay any attention to. Chill, everyone :)

[FloridaConfederate]

It sounds like the only people interested in this bill besides Rep. Conyers are the folks who delight in taking offense at it.

A few points seem worth mentioning. It was first introduced in 1989, and hasn't generated much support since then:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c101:hr3745:

Second, it never even got out of committee:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-40

Here's a partial history:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-40&tab=related

It's also worth noting that the bill simply calls for a commission to study reparations proposals. As Hank points out, the very most likely to come out of that would be something inoffensive and at most marginally effective.

Of far greater interest to this board, it seems to me, would be a discussion of compensated emancipation. So far as I know, that only happened in the District of Columbia. What was the problem with everywhere else? Wouldn't it have been cheaper than the war?

Also, if we have to chat about the present day, has anyone calculated the current value of 40 acres and a mule?
Just wondering...

If I was ever spinning down to a fiery death in an airplane I would want Schnapps by my side to let me know everything was gwine be all right.

Here's to you, Mr. Silver Tounged Pontificator of Posts.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[bsbaker]

This will never happen because:

A) The above mentioned variables of who is to pay in to create the
money needed to pay out. (which would never happen either because
the government would just print the needed money causing more infla-
tion but that's another story in itself)

B) This could possibly cause unneeded (sic?) turmoil in society and create
more "grievance money issues", i.e. The Japaneese internment camps
during WWII, ect.

C) Talk to someone who's not on this forum about this. See what their
reaction is. Now if you can already imagine that without actually doing
it, multiply it for the rest of the country. Can you imagine trying to
collect this money/enforce this law?

I agree with building more inner city schools......if anything. Now to somehow tie this to the Civil War, since this is a CW forum, I'll say this:
My GGGG-Grandfaher was shot through the forearm leaving him permanantly disabled and never received a pension even after several applications. His brother was home on furlough and was caught by Federal Calvary then tied to a tree in his front yard and shot. They were citizens of a sovereign country that was invaded and occupied unlawfully. Not to sound cooky and bitter over the troubles of people I never laid eyes on.....but where's my paycheck for the wrongs done to them?

[bob 125th nysvi]

Also, if we have to chat about the present day, has anyone calculated the current value of 40 acres and a mule?

where the 40 acres is doesn't it?

And you can get a good mule for $800-1000 even in NY.

Now let me ask a question. If their great-great-great grandpappy got the 40 acres and a mule are they exempt from compensation since they already 'got' theirs?

[bob 125th nysvi]

Geez lighten up guys.

Do you have ANY idea of how many people have been predicting everything from the end of civilization to the end of the world in our life times alone?

Ain't happened yet.

In fact there is another bunch of looney's due to owe us all an apology when the end of the Mayan Calander occurs in 2012 and the world doesn't go poof.

And you know what if it does happen then you DON'T have to pay income tax in 04/2013.

GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[bob 125th nysvi]

Hey, what's the big deal? The bill is calling for a COMMISSION! You know what that means: years of collecting data and listening to 'experts' and then finally a report that no one will pay any attention to. Chill, everyone :)

'A camel is a horse built by a committee.'

Let the comittee study away. You know what they will find. 14% of America's population MAY be due some sort of payment and that 86% of America DOESN'T want to foot the bill.

Since politicians like the nice comfortable no work jobs they have they'll pass something to assuage their feelings and do NOTHING else. Because recommending payments means that he next election they will have no job.

[hendrickms24]

I agree with building more inner city schools......if anything. Now to somehow tie this to the Civil War, since this is a CW forum, I'll say this:
My GGGG-Grandfaher was shot through the forearm leaving him permanantly disabled and never received a pension even after several applications. His brother was home on furlough and was caught by Federal Calvary then tied to a tree in his front yard and shot. They were citizens of a sovereign country that was invaded and occupied unlawfully. Not to sound cooky and bitter over the troubles of people I never laid eyes on.....but where's my paycheck for the wrongs done to them?

Well for one thing they were able to make their own choice to fight against the Federal government and pay the consequences. Slaves did not have the option to be a slave or not. Your reasoning makes no sense.

[bsbaker]

That was the point. It makes no sense. True, they did not have a choice to "serve" or not, but why should we give a monetary apology to people who probably can't even tell you one of their slave ancestors' names?

Just a thought, not an arguement.

[Poor Private]

And why build inner city schools when graduation rate is only 41% or so. You have to get them to come, and stay before you give them a building. Motivation, Motivation is the key word. Tosssing money or funds at something is not always the answer.

[Rob Weaver]

Hey, what's the big deal? The bill is calling for a COMMISSION! You know what that means: years of collecting data and listening to 'experts' and then finally a report that no one will pay any attention to. Chill, everyone :)
Very astute observation! And given the reputations of recent Congresses, a pretty predictable conclusion.
Now here's an interesting one: Both my wife's family and mine had individuals who fought in the Federal Army, one of whom was awarded a Medal of Honor. My second daughter is African-American (at least in part). She's adopted. Her birth certificate, used for all legal purposes, lists my wife and me as her mother and father, respectively. The earlier "Jane Doe" birth certificate issued for that child was destroyed when adoption was finalized. Now, is this arguably African-American child eligible for participation in reparations based upon racial background, or ineligible based on family?
"Here we judge you by what you do, not who your father was." I can't help but think this whole subject is so last-century's civil rights movement. In a biracial world, it becomes less and less relevant.

[sbl]

Gents, we have to get beyond "Them" and "those people."

Smart use of money with oversite and auditing is primary as well.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Interesting article about reparations from the Asian-American perspective:

http://www.pacificcitizen.org/content/2008/national/aug15-kushigemachi-black-reparations-1089.htm

It contains this quote from our President:

"I have said in the past, and I'll repeat again, that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed," Obama said.

This site surveys a number of reparations issues, including those affecting Japanese-American internees and Korean "comfort women."

http://www.footnotetv.com/mwreparations.html

The most disturbing aspect of Conyers' bill to me is the fact that Congress has been too craven to subject it to debate and vote. Apparently even an open discussion of the *possibility of a *commission to *study the matter remains too controversial for the national legislature to deal with.

And that's just sad.

[FloridaConfederate]

Schnapper good stuff.

Question. How many descendants of Japanese and Koreans were remunerated through reparations ?

Your huckleberry,

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Pvt Schnapps]

Schnapper good stuff.

Question. How many descendants of Japanese and Koreans were remunerated through reparations ?

Your huckleberry,

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

That, as you have astutely intuited, is one of several places where the comparison breaks down. I haven't checked, but even if some second or third generation Japanese Americans got survivor benefits the question would remain of how many generations back we should go.

In the case of the Japanese-Americans there was also discussion about whether *any flat payment would ever compensate for the homes, businesses, neighborhood standing, etc. lost during the internment process. So even there it was more a matter of pride and acknowledgement than money.

With the descendants of slaves we already have an apology, and we have a president (not descended from slaves but, hey, he still counts) saying there are better forms of reparations than some of what's been proposed.

Personally, I don't think it's an outrageous suggestion that we still go ahead and discuss it. My great-grandfather came here after the Civil War as a fugitive from Swiss justice. Despite this questionable background, he benefitted from a network of German-speaking immigrants from New York to Ohio and on, who were able to steer him with advice and perhaps more substantive support to the homestead he settled in Texas. There he and the next two generations worked their behinds off so I could enjoy my bogus office job.

I am grateful to all of them, including the government that passed the homestead act, the New Deal that helped them hang on to the land, my father's career in the Navy (with accompanying health benefits), the subsidized state colleges of Virginia, and every other piece of the social fabric that has swaddled me since birth. I'm sure they had someone better in mind.

A lot of black people have worked hard over generations too. But they had nothing like the support group old Heinrich had, both official and non-official, and in general not much of what I received either. In the county where I now live, blacks bootstrapped themselves up to political dominance by around 1900, then were systematically gerrymandered and covenanted out of, first, political power and, then, most of their neighborhoods. The loss of status was reinforced and continued for the next half dozen or so decades both by custom and through laws that they themselves were forced to support through their taxes.

In some areas of the country it was even worse. Lynching wasn't a sporadic or random activity but the iceberg tip of widespread and profound oppression that reversed political and cultural progress across large areas of the country and caused significant demographic changes that we can see today in states like South Carolina and Mississippi, and in the inner cities of the north.

So the question of what black Americans are owed by the nation as a whole remains relevant and I think Congress ought to have the glandular fortitude to at least talk about Conyers' proposal. I think the final result of such would be something close to the current President's opinion, and I think that would fit well with what most Americans think, bearing in mind that no amount of money can compensate for centuries of unpaid labor and political disenfranchisement.

Of course, that leaves open the question of what sort of assistance citizens like you and me should get.

The short answer is, we got ours when we were born white men.

[Scooby_308]

As a teacher I would argue that new schools with all the bells and whistles can encourage some students to come to school. But the main draw is good teaching. We always want to send money and volunteers abroad to help the underprivileged. What is needed is that same attitude here in the states. I work primarily with LBD and BD students in a rural, economically depressed setting. I am willing to work with students and not judge them. I am usually referred to as the best teacher, but also the toughest. I do not say this makes me a good teacher; I let the state testing scores (because that’s what they go by even though they are flawed) of my students stand for themselves. I love it when my former students call or e-mail me from college and say that they are covering stuff in classes that we covered in my classes (and they already know it).

What is needed is a Peace Corps that goes not only to our inner cities, but our rural areas as well.

[Pvt Schnapps]

As a teacher I would argue that new schools with all the bells and whistles can encourage some students to come to school. But the main draw is good teaching. We always want to send money and volunteers abroad to help the underprivileged. What is needed is that same attitude here in the states. I work primarily with LBD and BD students in a rural, economically depressed setting. I am willing to work with students and not judge them. I am usually referred to as the best teacher, but also the toughest. I do not say this makes me a good teacher; I let the state testing scores (because that’s what they go by even though they are flawed) of my students stand for themselves. I love it when my former students call or e-mail me from college and say that they are covering stuff in classes that we covered in my classes (and they already know it).

What is needed is a Peace Corps that goes not only to our inner cities, but our rural areas as well.

I agree, and I'm grateful folks like you are out there working on this.

[mnreb]

What is also needed, is parents and children who care about learning.
Bill Feuchtenberger

[bizzilizzit]

The short answer is, we got ours when we were born white men.

What about reparations for women? Our property was taken from us when we married. If we divorced, no matter who the divorcer was or what the reason was, or if we were widowed, we needed to buy back our personal property like our clothing and often lost our children to other male members of HIS family. What about those women who were dragged from their homes and placed in insane asylums for real, imagined, or made up reasons by their husbands, fathers, brothers, sons with no trial to hear our side of the story? We were denied the vote well into the 20th century and had little to no say in how our government (or families) treated us. What does the government owe WOMEN for the things that were taken from or denied us?

[Scooby_308]

What is also needed, is parents and children who care about learning.
Bill Feuchtenberger
Ever so true!

But that is something that would be difficult. We have tried a variety of things to try to get community involvement and nothing works. But the entire county will show up for a basketball game.

[Pvt Schnapps]

What about reparations for women? Our property was taken from us when we married. If we divorced, no matter who the divorcer was or what the reason was, or if we were widowed, we needed to buy back our personal property like our clothing and often lost our children to other male members of HIS family. What about those women who were dragged from their homes and placed in insane asylums for real, imagined, or made up reasons by their husbands, fathers, brothers, sons with no trial to hear our side of the story? We were denied the vote well into the 20th century and had little to no say in how our government (or families) treated us. What does the government owe WOMEN for the things that were taken from or denied us?

I don't know about you and the government, but everything my wife thinks she's owed she gets from me. ;)

[mnreb]

Chris,
I also coach 3 sports besides teaching. I could not agree with you more on your comment.
Bill Feuchtenberger

["Doc" Nelson]

What is also needed, is parents and children who care about learning.
Bill Feuchtenberger
Mostly, the parents. The kids only do what their parents allow them to do. In "today's society" (as some would say), quite allot of parents do not take an active role in their kids' lives.

I ran a school age program for the YMCA and, was overseeing 6 different elementary schools. Every time a child was suspended from the program by one of my Directors, there had to be a meeting between the parents and myself, to discuss the situation at hand, any consequences due from said issue(s) and,to see what goals to work towards to resolve the issue(s). 90% of these kids had fighting or authority issues. That's what's wrong with some kids and parents today . . some parents just don't care anymore, and their kids pickup on that.

It has to begin at home first!

[Scooby_308]

Chris,
I also coach 3 sports besides teaching. I could not agree with you more on your comment.
Bill Feuchtenberger
Yup! I coached high school sports for a few years (and still coach, only city league now). I am amazed at how many parents can make it to every game, yet they cannot make it to either of the two scheduled conferences a year.

[hanktrent]

What about reparations for women?

Okay, I've been dying of curiosity, and finally I'm going to ask. Not picking on the above post in particular, as it's just one of many. Whenever something about reparations for slavery is posted, there's always a flurry of responses: "My ancestors were members of oppressed group X. What about them?"

I'm curious: do those posts indicate that the posters are in favor of reparations for slave-descendants, since they seem to be supporting the idea of reparations in general?

Or are the posts meant to be sarcastic and show the absurdity of reparations in general, and thus they're arguments against reparations for slaves-descendants in particular?

Or are they just an illustration of opportunism: Regardless of the poster's opinion on slave reparations, if slave-descendants get something, they want something too? And is it sincere, or is it to be read as an illustration of why reparations for slavery are bad: if we start giving reparations, everyone else will want them too, and we shouldn't open that door.

Honestly, I can't tell how to interpret the posts.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Scooby_308]

Okay, I've been dying of curiosity, and finally I'm going to ask. Not picking on the above post in particular, as it's just one of many. Whenever something about reparations for slavery is posted, there's always a flurry of responses: "My ancestors were members of oppressed group X. What about them?"

I'm curious: do those posts indicate that the posters are in favor of reparations for slave-descendants, since they seem to be supporting the idea of reparations in general?

Or are the posts meant to be sarcastic and show the absurdity of reparations in general, and thus they're arguments against reparations for slaves-descendants in particular?

Or are they just an illustration of opportunism: Regardless of the poster's opinion on slave reparations, if slave-descendants get something, they want something too? And is it sincere, or is it to be read as an illustration of why reparations for slavery are bad: if we start giving reparations, everyone else will want them too, and we shouldn't open that door.

Honestly, I can't tell how to interpret the posts.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net
2 and 3 for me Hank.

I do not expect, nor would I accept, reparations for past relatives. I never experienced their hardships. Am I a product of their treatment? Probably, but we adapt and overcome, or we sit and spin. I am who I am because of my parents and my own unique individual experiences in life. If my parents had experienced the hardships, yes; but when the hardships occurred 3-5 generations before, there is less of a direct impact on my life. I had one g-grandmother who was Cherokee and one who was Cree. I do not expect to receive any payment, they both “married up” and improved their lives.

["Doc" Nelson]

Amen Scooby!!
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes, my GGGG Grandmother was full blooded Cherokee, my GGG Grandfather was 1/2 Cherokee-1/2 Scots-Irish and, my GG Grandmother was 1/2 Chrokee (as well as many other of my Nelson "clan" of Northern Georgia at that time) . . do I expect something for their hardships? . . no. My ancestors hid their Native blood during the 1800's, for fear of being forced to move to Oklahoma. So, they remained in Northern Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina. Am I pi**ed about it? . . not really. It happened long before my existsence on this Earth.

My comments are plainly in disgust of the bleeding heart folks that think, just because one person suffered from something (or, for some reason or another) a LONG TIME AGO, they need "remedies" for that. I mean, WTF???? My comments were plainly for amusement of the original post. If one should receive remedies then, just about everyone else in this country could ask for remedies for their "suffrage", in form or another.

[sbl]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/sbl1952/politics/Reparations1.jpg


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/sbl1952/politics/Reparations2.jpg

[Pvt Schnapps]

And I would contend that slavery wasn't just something that happened a long time ago and then went away, leaving the descendants of slaves with no obstacles in the way of full enjoyment of the American dream. Slavery was a persistent condition lasting centuries and involved not just bondage, but legally enforced illiteracy and social disintegration.

And after slavery ended the freedmen were left with a steeper than average hill to climb. Like Sisyphus they suffered repeated frustrations in their efforts. The *legal barriers to equality persisted into the current generation. The social repercussions will take more generations to entirely overcome.

In that context, it makes sense to talk about how we bring reality into line with our ideals.

So don't kid yourselves. This isn't about rewarding black people for being lucky enough to be born that way.

[bizzilizzit]

Okay, I've been dying of curiosity, and finally I'm going to ask. Not picking on the above post in particular, as it's just one of many. Whenever something about reparations for slavery is posted, there's always a flurry of responses: "My ancestors were members of oppressed group X. What about them?"

I'm curious: do those posts indicate that the posters are in favor of reparations for slave-descendants, since they seem to be supporting the idea of reparations in general?

Or are the posts meant to be sarcastic and show the absurdity of reparations in general, and thus they're arguments against reparations for slaves-descendants in particular?

Or are they just an illustration of opportunism: Regardless of the poster's opinion on slave reparations, if slave-descendants get something, they want something too? And is it sincere, or is it to be read as an illustration of why reparations for slavery are bad: if we start giving reparations, everyone else will want them too, and we shouldn't open that door.

Honestly, I can't tell how to interpret the posts.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Definitely sarcastic, Hank. If one group can put their hand out to the government looking to be compensated for a real or perceived abuse 100 or 200 years ago by people who are long dead because they claim they are related to said group, why can't every other group do the same? American Indians, indentured servants from European decent, African Americans, the Chinese, religious groups, etc. were all used and abused by another "group" at one point or another in American history. We can all claim that the government owes us something for our ancestors' mistreatment. Why can't we move on? The past is past and needs to be remembered so as not to be repeated - however, we need to stop being a society who thinks someone else is responsible for our current woes and should compensate us for it.

[FloridaConfederate]

We have a black first couple, Harvard and Princeton grads respectively.

They sure seemed to roll their stone to the top of hill ?

I live in a county which has black commissioners, black city councilmen, black state legislators, a black county attorney....on and on and on....

If you want it and are willing to work hard enough...the world is yer oyster. Skin color has favorably stacked the deck more and more in the past 40 years.

Who is kidding who ?

You can roll that stone to the top of the hill
you can carry that weight with an iron will
you can drive those wheels tothe end of the road
you can try to deny the weight of the load

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Pvt Schnapps]

We have a black first couple, Harvard and Princeton grads respectively.

They sure seemed to roll their stone to the top of hill ?

I live in a county which has black commissioners, black city councilmen, black state legislators, a black county attorney....on and on and on....

If you want it and are willing to work hard enough...the world is yer oyster. Skin color has favorably stacked the deck more and more in the past 40 years.

Who is kidding who ?

You can roll that stone to the top of the hill
you can carry that weight with an iron will
you can drive those wheels tothe end of the road
you can try to deny the weight of the load

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Your opinion stands boldly innocent of any general statistics related to income or longevity. Try these:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/c2kbr-36.pdf

"..median income in 1999
was ...and lowest for those with a Black
householder ($29,400). The median
income for households with a
White householder who was not
Hispanic was $45,400. The median
income for those with Hispanic
householders was $33,700."

[sbl]

"Somebody" has his Waverunner.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/boating/safety/images/waverunner2.jpg

[FloridaConfederate]

Your opinion stands boldly innocent of any general statistics related to income or longevity. Try these:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/c2kbr-36.pdf

"..median income in 1999
was ...and lowest for those with a Black
householder ($29,400). The median
income for households with a
White householder who was not
Hispanic was $45,400. The median
income for those with Hispanic
householders was $33,700."

SO if I understand you (you know me Iz aint all fancy book learnt like you) you propose it is slavery and the resulting 146 years of foul treatment at the hands of the white man as the sole causation of disparity purported to be shown your census figures ?

So does that mean the inverse is true ?

The many, many blacks who I deal with daily who are leaders and "made it" are via the selective kindness of the white man ?

What does your census say about black families without fathers ?

Is it Whitey at it again keepin away baby daddy ?

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs." Booker T. Washington, former slave


Standing by for discount of Mr. Washington's statements.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hanktrent]

Is it Whitey at it again keepin away baby daddy ?

And that, of course, gets to the heart of the matter. Why, statistically over-all, are blacks more apt to either be poor and/or do the things that cause poverty, than whites in America today? If it's not the lingering effects of slavery followed by decades of racism, what is it?

The most obvious, not-politically-correct possibility, is that "those people" really "are that way"--lazy, irresponsible, hard to educate, would rather beg than work, prone to violence. If one isn't convinced by U.S. statistics, there's always modern-day Liberia to consider.

Ouch. Coming to that conclusion would set equality and civil rights back a hundred years.

So if that's not the answer, and it's not due to the lingering effects slavery/racism, what are some other possible causes of the statistical difference?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[sbl]

Two possible reasons....

Red Lining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Redlining is the practice of denying or increasing the cost of services such as banking, insurance, access to jobs,[2] access to health care,[3] or even supermarkets[4] to residents in certain often racially determined[5] areas. The term "redlining" was coined in the late 1960s by community activists in Chicago. It describes the practice of marking a red line on a map to delineate the area where banks would not invest; later the term was applied to discrimination against a particular group of people (usually by race or sex) no matter the geography. During the heyday of redlining, the areas most frequently discriminated against were black inner city neighborhoods. Through at least the 1990s this practice meant that banks would often lend to lower income whites but not to middle or upper income blacks.[6]

Example of the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riot

"The Greenwood section of Tulsa was home to a commercial district so prosperous it was known as "the Negro Wall Street" (now commonly referred to as "the Black Wall Street"). Ironically, the economic enclaves here and elsewhere — bounded and supported by racial discrimination — supported prosperity and capital formation within the community. In the surrounding areas of northeastern Oklahoma, blacks also enjoyed relative prosperity and participated in the oil boom.[6]"

A result..

"In June 2001, the Oklahoma state legislature passed the "1921 Tulsa Race Riot Reconciliation Act." While falling short of the Commission's recommendations, it provided for 300+ college scholarships for descendants of Greenwood residents, mandated the creation of a memorial to those who died in the riot, and called for new efforts to promote economic development in Greenwood.[12]"

[reb64]

Who qualifies, say if I adopt black children do I get to use their money for them? or if a white is married to a black person, and one of them is a ex slave holder do they qualify?

[tompritchett]

So if that's not the answer, and it's not due to the lingering effects slavery/racism, what are some other possible causes of the statistical difference?

What I find most interesting is that the areas of the country where the cycle of poverty seems to have trapped the most blacks is in areas of the country where slavery was no longer in place at the time of the Civil War. And in several of these areas, such as Harlem, it seems that the overall economic health and social structure of the black families has actually declined in the last 40 - 50 years. I think that this would tend to support Hank's suggestion that there may be more going on than just the lingering effects of slavery.

[tompritchett]

Example of the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot..

I don't think that the Tulsa Race Riot would qualify as "redlining". Rather it was a case of racial hatred, mixed with economic jealousy (remember there was a depression going on) exploding into a nasty episode of white on black violence with the apparent support of the white powers that be (where did the machine guns come from?) There was direct and documented economic damage suffered by the black residents of Tulsa as families lost property and wage earners.

[tompritchett]

Gentlemen, I only allowed this topic to continue for one reason:

1) it does relate to a social condition which dates back to the Civil War &

However, some people are starting to get upset while others seem to be deliberately trying to incite others. Normally, I would just close the thread but I just made a few posts myself on the topic and do not want to make it look like a closed the thread in order to get in the last word. Therefore, I will allow this thread to run until tomorrow afternoon when I will close it then.

[sbl]

No Thomas, I meant the Tulsa riot as an example of a successful black community destroyed. Redlining was meant to keep a community from becoming successful. Just two quick factors. I'm not a scholar on this subject.

[FloridaConfederate]

it seems that the overall economic health and social structure of the black families has actually declined in the last 40 - 50 years


Ding ! and to answer Hank:

The decline of the black nuclear family ironically at a time of new opptys brought about through gains in civil rights..the traditional faith based black family began to show marked disintegration in part due to newly acceptable social mores such as pervasive substance abuse together w/ the oft criminal ramifications to support the same and the vicious dependency trap of governmental entitlements.

Pritch did you toast some posts..I am not seeing the baiting or nasty nasty in this one...matter o' fact it seems to have been pretty amiable ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Texasbutternut]

Howdy, sirs,
Some gently humorous rejoinders on this subject that have been emailed around include the one about how the Jewish people are still waiting on an apology and reparations from Egypt for enslaving the Jews about 4000 years ago.
And there's the one about "my ancestors were Jewish and were enslaved by the Egyptians. Egypt is in Africa, so the NAACP owes me a ton of money."
Let's hope this ridiculous 'study bill' dies in committee.


Hank Van Slyke
3rd Texas Light Artillery

[sbl]

Didn't the Hebrews take a lot of plunder with them?

Exodus 12:35
The Israelites did as Moses had told them and asked the Egyptians for silver and gold, jewelry, and clothing.

Exodus 12:36
Yahweh made the Egyptians so much impressed with the people that they gave them what they asked.

[sbl]

Thomas, another quick search.........a possiblity.

DAVID T. COURTWRIGHT

The Drug War's Perverse Toll

Imprisoning so many urban black males is discouraging marriage and the formation of families, thus contributing to moral and social breakdown.

Bob Dole remarked in his acceptance speech at the 1996 Republican National Convention that "the root cause of crime is criminals." The tautology and its implications-more prisons, longer sentences, tougher judges-made for a good applause line, though not the wisest course of action. Dole and his fellow Republicans were closer to the truth when they talked about the superiority of the family to the state as a means of moral development and social control......................

http://www.issues.org/13.2/courtw.htm

[tompritchett]

Pritch did you toast some posts..I am not seeing the baiting or nasty nasty in this one...matter o' fact it seems to have been pretty amiable ?

Believe it or not, I have not had to "toast some posts". There have been one or two paragraphs that I have let stand that I probably should not have but overall this discussion has indeed fairly amiable.

[hanktrent]

What I find most interesting is that the areas of the country where the cycle of poverty seems to have trapped the most blacks is in areas of the country where slavery was no longer in place at the time of the Civil War. And in several of these areas, such as Harlem, it seems that the overall economic health and social structure of the black families has actually declined in the last 40 - 50 years. I think that this would tend to support Hank's suggestion that there may be more going on than just the lingering effects of slavery.

Actually, my personal opinion at the moment is that it is the lingering effects of slavery and racism (or maybe I should say that racism caused both slavery and the lingering effects), but I'm curious about other possibilities.

Interesting that the northern city cycle of poverty mentioned above is just what many northerners predicted would be the result of emancipation: an influx of free blacks, and not enough jobs to support them.

Anybody have statistics easily at hand, to see whether post-war there was a general migration of ex-slaves to northern cities? In other words, are black residents of northern cities today mostly from families that resided there at the time of the war, or families that came from the south?



redlining...

Excellent example of a subtle way of keeping prosperity from blacks. But I'd argue that it would fit within the general cause of slavery/racism, in this case free-state racism.

So then one gets into the broader question: slavery was undoubtedly a worse form of discrimination than the various anti-black laws in free states, since it restricted more of an individual's freedoms more permanently. Oddly, we tend to call compensation for slavery "reparations," and compensation for later racism "affirmative action," but it seems to me they're both similar.

So, then, should we consider reparations for slavery only, because it was the worst even though it was longer ago? Reparations for discrimination nationwide because it affected more people more recently, even if it was less severe? No reparations for anything, wipe the slate clean and just start fresh now, even if the races aren't statistically caught up yet? It's a moral and ethical puzzle.



The decline of the black nuclear family ironically at a time of new opptys brought about through gains in civil rights..the traditional faith based black family began to show marked disintegration in part due to newly acceptable social mores such as pervasive substance abuse together w/ the oft criminal ramifications to support the same and the vicious dependency trap of governmental entitlements.


Can't argue with that. I'd say those things are absolutely what cause poverty, crime, and so forth, and being raised in that environment passes it to the next generation.

However, here's still what puzzles me. Looser morals, children born out of wedlock, divorces, etc. have increased for both blacks and whites since the swinging sixties. If that were the only cause, why is there still a statistical gap between black and white?

The obvious answer is that more blacks were already poor and/or living in bad neighborhoods, so when society changed, the temptation toward irresponsibility, crime, drug abuse, etc. was greater for them than whites.

But then we're back to the question, why were they poorer to begin with, if not due to the lingering effects of slavery and racism?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Rob Weaver]

C. Vann Woodward's "The Strange History of Jim Crow" actually places the blame for civil rights conditions on the period after the Civil War, in fact, after Reconstruction ended. He makes the case that overall standard of living for African-Americans was worse in 1900 than in the 1850s. I recognize that you can't really undo the effects of 250 years of slavery in a fifteen years but it seems to me that most of the lack of opportunity for blacks that characterized the 20th century actually stems from the systematic cultural and legal oppression that occurred well after emancipation and citizenship. This seems more heinous to me because - though this look callous when written down - legally you were no longer dealing with "property" but "citizens." I don't see any great value in personal reparations, and oppose them, yet at the same time we as a nation need to continue to address the injustices which were allowed in the period after Reconstruction ended.

[sbl]

It's shory essay on-line. I ended up watching an on-line lecture by Courtwright.


DAVID T. COURTWRIGHT

http://www.issues.org/13.2/courtw.htm

The Drug War's Perverse Toll

"Heavy reliance on the criminal justice system can also reach the point where it undermines family life. Imprisoning a large number of men distorts the marriage market and thereby increases the likelihood of illegitimacy and discourages the formation of families."

He states figures on race and sentencing. It's worth a look.

[FloridaConfederate]

Oooooooh I get it...we are imprisioning them.

not......

they are committing crimes.

2009 = Age of Zero Personal Accountability.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[sbl]

Don't be jerk, read the article.

[Pvt Schnapps]

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs." Booker T. Washington, former slave


Standing by for discount of Mr. Washington's statements.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida



I don't quote black people to justify their condition in society, but I have no such qualms when it comes to my own race.

"...the 'poor whites' of our South who were always despised, and frequently insulted, by the slave lords around them, and who owed their base condition simply to the presence of slavery in their midst, were yet pusillanimously ready to side with the slave lords in all political moves for the upholding and perpetuating of slavery, and did also finally shoulder their muskets and pour out their lives in an effort to prevent the destruction of that very institution which degraded them. And there was only one redeeming feature connected with that pitiful piece of history; and that was, that secretly the 'poor white' did detest the slave lord, and did feel his own shame. That feeling was not brought to the surface, but the fact that it was there and could have been brought out, under favoring circumstances, was something--in fact it was enough; for it showed that a man is at bottom a man, after all, even if it doesn't show on the outside."
Mark Twain - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

It's never too late, Chris.

In the meantime, I have to admit to being bothered when you throw around terms like "baby daddy."

Specifically, it bothers me as a white man to see you validate some of the worse stereotypes about our own race and sex. Until I had the priviledge of reading some of the southern apologias on this site, I hadn't the faintest conception of what a black man must feel watching a minstrel show. So thank you for that bit of enlightenment, I guess.

[FloridaConfederate]

Read it.

Does not refer in terms of blacks committing crimes....rather it is termed as being "imprisoned".

Let play inverse again

If we were talking about the ramifications of whites and murder...do you think it would it be termed whites imprisoned for murder or whites committing murder ?


Navin Johnson
Optigrab Mess

[FloridaConfederate]

I don't quote black people to justify their condition in society, but I have no such qualms when it comes to my own race.

"...the 'poor whites' of our South who were always despised, and frequently insulted, by the slave lords around them, and who owed their base condition simply to the presence of slavery in their midst, were yet pusillanimously ready to side with the slave lords in all political moves for the upholding and perpetuating of slavery, and did also finally shoulder their muskets and pour out their lives in an effort to prevent the destruction of that very institution which degraded them. And there was only one redeeming feature connected with that pitiful piece of history; and that was, that secretly the 'poor white' did detest the slave lord, and did feel his own shame. That feeling was not brought to the surface, but the fact that it was there and could have been brought out, under favoring circumstances, was something--in fact it was enough; for it showed that a man is at bottom a man, after all, even if it doesn't show on the outside."
Mark Twain - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

It's never too late, Chris.

In the meantime, I have to admit to being bothered when you throw around terms like "baby daddy."

Specifically, it bothers me as a white man to see you validate some of the worse stereotypes about our own race and sex. Until I had the priviledge of reading some of the southern apologias on this site, I hadn't the faintest conception of what a black man must feel watching a minstrel show. So thank you for that bit of enlightenment, I guess.


Yes Mike it must be I'm racist. Bill Clinton was racist too. Anyone who challenges independence instead of .gov suckling is racist. Bill Cosby comes to mind.... cept' he was an Uncle Tom. It is always the coup de gras of when there no counter to the facts. All of my mention of the scores and scores of fine, productive, self-accountable black Americans in our communities, churchs and business is that another act of random whitey kindness ?

I think you have no counter to my points and you just threw the ultimate cheap shot...look at Pritch, Hank Trent reasonable men with honest discussion. To see you throw the race card is tantamount to taking your ball and going home.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[sustudent]

The article talked about the justice system "undermining" the family, because it removes the male head-of-household from the family structure. SO, remove the power of the justice system, right? According to Courtwright, that would give more stability to the family.
However, the men in prison are criminals, correct? I mean, are they not guilty, because I can accept that it does happen and, obviously, imprisoning a man for a crime he didn't commit is wrong. But Courtwright indicated that the penalties are too stiff. He also mentioned that drug-dealing was "cultural". That means they are guilty, but not by their own standards.
You can reduce the penalties, and reduce the imprisonment rate. But what are the consequences? If these fathers pass on their "trade" to their sons, won't that increase the percentages of other drug related crimes, such as theft and homicide?
Sorry to the moderators, I think I went modern-political on you all. In an attempt to help my post, I suggest that anyone interested in the topic of interracial relations immediately post-war read Race and Reunion by David Blight. It talks about reconciliation and how that affected the "Emancipationist" memory of the Civil War. AKA if every white soldier, North and South, did their duty, then slavery becomes a footnote to the war.

Regards,
Alexander M. Stowe
College Student
Son of New York
122nd NYVI

[sbl]

No Chris, you're provoker here. Don't take Hank Trent's and Thomas Pritchard's names in vain.

[sustudent]

I took a class back in my Sophomore year at Syracuse, and we discussed the idea that White people are systematically racist. Now that doesn't mean that everyone has acted racially intolerant. A key point was that you shouldn't sit back and do nothing. The question always came up: "What can/should I do?" According to Courtwright, dependence on government welfare is part of the issue. That leads me to believe that monetary "reparations" are not going to work.

Whenever I talk to a group of students, or do a presentation, I try to mention that the Abolitionist movement did not take place universally in the North, and also that there were people in the South that did not believe in slavery. Is that enough? Does my education of a few people a few weekends a year make a difference?

We all judge each other so quickly, as racist, liberal, you name it. Maybe that is the problem. The only reason that racism exists is because people expect it to exist. Does that make sense?

Regards,
Alex Stowe
College Student
Son of New York
122nd NYVI

[hanktrent]

Oooooooh I get it...we are imprisioning them.

not......

they are committing crimes.

2009 = Age of Zero Personal Accountability.

Though the article mentions gender-ratios on the frontier, here's another parallel from the antebellum era: debtor's prisons (http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=debtors+prisons+u.s.+1830s&sig=L-A1Zov-zDgCumEqrNHQYGx4Izg&ct=result&id=8-sAdjP2f28C&ots=vYzpcmUMf1&output=html). We tend to think of them as Dickensian horrors across the pond, but we had them too, within the memory of people alive in the 1860s.

Nowadays, I believe the general thought is that debt and bankruptcy aren't matters worthy of imprisonment in themselves, unless deliberate fraud or some other crime has been committed. Putting in jail someone who has lost his job and can't pay his bills benefits neither him nor his family, nor his creditors nor society.

Yet until around the 1830s, the laws reflected just the opposite viewpoint. If a man, of his own free will, contracted a debt and failed to pay it, he harmed his creditor just as if he'd stolen from him, and deserved jail just the same.

In that big reform era of the 1830s and 1840s, though, society's opinion changed. And there's the parallel, of course. Debtors were "being imprisoned" for something that today we believe people shouldn't be imprisoned for, even though debtors voluntarily chose the action of contracting a debt knowing they'd need to repay it.

So I think it's fair to talk about society's choice of what to imprison people for, even though each person could theoretically avoid imprisonment anyway through his own actions. If you don't go into debt, you can't wind up in debtor's prison. If you don't buy or sell drugs illegally, you can't wind up in prison for owning or using them. (Other than a mistaken conviction of an innocent person, of course.) But is prison really the best solution to the problem? I think it's worth considering.

Personally, I'm not entirely against the idea of debtors' prisons, as I think fear of jail time would make people think twice about living beyond their means, but I also realize that society has decided that they just don't work.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[sbl]

Once you realise that racism is used to divide people who have common interests, it's hard to let it alone. One can try to start with one's self and speak up when you can when others commit it. I've commited it but I'm not proud of it or try to justify it. But, hey that's just me.

[sbl]

What I got from Courtwright was the differences in sentencing. Another factor not mentioned is the private for profit prison system. We now imprison more people than China. I'm curious about that, but we out do most nations in numbers and percent of population.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/23/america/23prison.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJyaZ8Ta6i4

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

With drugs of course there is supervised treatment that doesn't involve prison.

[FloridaConfederate]

Alot of my POV comes straight from Juan Williams (I'd vote him Prez in nanosec)

Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America — and What We Can Do about It

It really is a must read.

Very "Cosbyonian"

Using Mr. Williams life personifies what I am saying ......from WIKI:


Williams was born in Colón, Panama, near the Canal Zone, then a United States territory. He was raised in the Episcopal branch of the Anglican church, of which his father, a boxing trainer, was a member. In 1958, his family moved to the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York. He went on to graduate from Haverford College with a degree in philosophy.

Was it a faith based moral compass and father in his life or yet another random act of white kindness which let a Bedsty resident graduate from Haverford and convey a self-accountable life view an ol redneck boy is in tune with ?

Edit by THP; replacement of racial term

Chris Rideout
Tampa, FLorida

[FloridaConfederate]

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307338235

Enough
The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America--and What We Can Do About It


Written by Juan Williams

Category: Current Affairs
Publisher: Crown
Format: Hardcover, 256 pages
Pub Date: August 2006
Price: $33.00
ISBN: 978-0-307-33823-5 (0-307-33823-1)
Also available as an eBook and a trade paperback.


About this Book


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Half a century after brave Americans took to the streets to raise the bar of opportunity for all races, Juan Williams writes that too many black Americans are in crisis—caught in a twisted hip-hop culture, dropping out of school, ending up in jail, having babies when they are not ready to be parents, and falling to the bottom in twenty-first-century global economic competition.

In Enough, Juan Williams issues a lucid, impassioned clarion call to do the right thing now, before we travel so far off the glorious path set by generations of civil rights heroes that there can be no more reaching back to offer a hand and rescue those being left behind.

Inspired by Bill Cosby’s now famous speech at the NAACP gala celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Brown decision integrating schools, Williams makes the case that while there is still racism, it is way past time for black Americans to open their eyes to the “culture of failure” that exists within their community. He raises the banner of proud black traditional values—self-help, strong families, and belief in God—that sustained black people through generations of oppression and flowered in the exhilarating promise of the modern civil rights movement. Williams asks what happened to keeping our eyes on the prize by proving the case for equality with black excellence and achievement.

He takes particular aim at prominent black leaders—from Al Sharpton to Jesse Jackson to Marion Barry. Williams exposes the call for reparations as an act of futility, a detour into self-pity; he condemns the “Stop Snitching” campaign as nothing more than a surrender to criminals; and he decries the glorification of materialism, misogyny, and murder as a corruption of a rich black culture, a tragic turn into pornographic excess that is hurting young black minds, especially among the poor.

Reinforcing his incisive observations with solid research and alarming statistical data, Williams offers a concrete plan for overcoming the obstacles that now stand in the way of African Americans’ full participation in the nation’s freedom and prosperity. Certain to be widely discussed and vehemently debated, Enough is a bold, perceptive, solution-based look at African American life, culture, and politics today


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[tompritchett]

I took a class back in my Sophomore year at Syracuse, and we discussed the idea that White people are systematically racist. Now that doesn't mean that everyone has acted racially intolerant.

I have found over the years that racism can not only be overt, as seen with the KKK on one side and Al Sharpton on the other, but can be extremely subtle. None of my family would consider themselves racist but when my niece gave birth to child of an obviously black father almost all of them felt scandalized. (For those of you who now feel that I am airing my family's dirty laundry, I ask you now why do you feel that this is dirty laundry - after all the child is nothing more than a child and only racism bothers with the color.) Because I was brought up in a subtle racist environment, I am always having to question why I have some of the feelings that I do. Is my strong dislike for rap music feuled by the fact that it originated in the black ghettos or is it more because it glamourizes the life style were the future is through the sell of drugs. I challenge all of here to look strongly in the mirror and ask yourself whether or not everytime you say that you "don't like the lifestyle" or subculture are you being truthful to yourself or are you just making excuses for being a subtle racist? For those of you that dislike rap music do you disappove of white rappers because of their choice of music or because they are abandoning their racial culture and are trying to be black? I know that I was raised as a racist and that it has colored many of my earlier beliefs. It is something that I will always be trying to overcome for the rest of my life. I challenge others here to now examine their beliefs in a similar manner to see if there are some of the same seeds of subtle racism forming the basis for some of their opinions about the achievements, abilities, and general culture of blacks. What be your initial reaction if your sister of daughter came home and informed the family that fiancee was black? Would it be an immediate acceptance and joy for her or would you first go through the stage of "what the ____"?

[Rob Weaver]

Since we've thrown out a quote from him, how many of us have actually read Booker T Washington's Up From Slavery? He paints a hopeful and enthusiastic vision of a future which, from the other end of it, does not seem to have turned out anywhere near what he envisioned. He also talks of being treated well by former Confederates, gives credit to whites who espoused the cause of the former slaves, as well as castigating those of his own race who would not come into the future. The book made me cry because of the unrealized potential in it.
Washington would have summed up the answer to the complex question of racial advancement in one word: education. Ignorance breeds fear, and fear, racial intolerance. Is the answer still education, and how can we continue to get back on track?

[tompritchett]

I have reversed my opinion about closing this thread today. However, I would suggest that certain individuals clean up the language in some of their posts to remove racial terms for the purpose of provoking others.

[tompritchett]

We now imprison more people than China. I'm curious about that, but we out do most nations in numbers and percent of population.

Some would argue that today's prisons no longer rehabilitate criminals but rather become breeding grounds for more violent crime. Since a disproportionate number of the those incarcerated are black and Hispanic, it would follow that our prisons are training many of the young blacks and Hispanics for a life of crime.

["Doc" Nelson]

I'm gonna back out of this thread. Slavery will always be a sore subject. There are those, within each race that, want to start trouble no matter what. As long as we allow this happen, it will happen.

I am always debating with some of my friends, who are black, about the very issue. One even jokingly made a comment about a Confederate flag I have posted on my MySpace page (its a Sons of Confederate Veterans clipart). I went off. My friends know where I stand on the issue. And, whenever I hear the "n" word, I don't care where I am at or, who is around, I will lite someone up for making the comment.

Racism is in ever race. There are those that are black that, are racist towards whites, and vice versa. Even other races: Oriental, Middle Eastern (think 9-11-2001), Mexican, etc.

If you want to stop racism, then make a comment to fight against it.

[FloridaConfederate]

Pritch I wish you the best with your struggles and your racist upbringing.

It is very hard for me to speak of my personal situations as I am self-deprecating in most circumstances or as a means of proving my moral compass.

To answer your questions...candidly...I have no issue with other ethnicity in the hypothetical you propose. I have fostered black and mixed race children in my home. I am an adoptive parent and would presently adopt a black child without hesitation. We are looking again. We have mixed race children adopted into the family (in-laws). Different colors are routine at my diner table come holidays.

In my community I have received accommodations and have a reputation for the support, both financial and via work w/ some of the most recognizable social service agencies both Federal grant and locally funded.

I sleep well at night knowing I am prejudiced to wards folks not for their skin color...but for their unwillingness to take control of their own destiny and self-accountability.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[tompritchett]

If you want to stop racism, then make a comment to fight against it.

I am assuming that you meant to say "commitment" rather than "comment". I would also submit that the first place to start the fight against racism is with ones self and that the first step in that fight is recognition of it regardless how subtle it might be.

["Doc" Nelson]

I am assuming that you meant to say "commitment" rather than "comment".
Yes, I meant to say commitment. Sorry, my fingers were moving a little faster than my mind :mrgreen: .


I would also submit that the first place to start the fight against racism is with ones self and that the first step in that fight is recognition of it regardless how subtle it might be.
AMEN Tom!

I apologize. I said I was backing out but, I had to respond to Tom's question, out of respect.

[bob 125th nysvi]

has become a little distribing but here goes.

Is there racism? Sure is. Because racism is just one of the many ways we divide people into groups that we are either part of or not part of. We do it, we all do it. It is as simple as male/female. Like many other 'isms' racism is given its connotations not because we all divide people into groups but how we act upon those divisions.

It is patent nonsense that 'racism' can only be done by whites to non-whites. It can (and will) be done by anyone to anyone. I was once one of just 4 'white' guys on a minority adult football team. Was I accepted because of my skills as a lineman. Darn right I was. Was I invited to the 'socializing' after the game. Nope because I was a white middle class married man. They loved me as a player not as a 'bro'. they acted on the 'division' between us. The most obvious one being I was 'white'.

Secondly, slavery ended in America in 1865. Done finished over with. There is probably no one alive today who is a first generation "freedman" and certainly nobody alive today who actually was a slave. Ditto for slave owners, traders, whatever. They are all gone.

Therefore nobody today can claim that they were directly harmed as a result of slavery (racism being a whole different issue). Nobody alive today is a direct recipient of the economic 'benefits' of slavery.

Basically as a point of law there is no guilty party to blame and no injured party to compensate.

The rest of the problems (poverty, criminality, family disfunction) are the result of many things (paramount one being personally irresponsible) but NOT slavery.

Lets get real and lets lighten up on being internet warriors to the point of insulting each other.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Yes Mike it must be I'm racist. Bill Clinton was racist too. Anyone who challenges independence instead of .gov suckling is racist. Bill Cosby comes to mind.... cept' he was an Uncle Tom. It is always the coup de gras of when there no counter to the facts. All of my mention of the scores and scores of fine, productive, self-accountable black Americans in our communities, churchs and business is that another act of random whitey kindness ?

I think you have no counter to my points and you just threw the ultimate cheap shot...look at Pritch, Hank Trent reasonable men with honest discussion. To see you throw the race card is tantamount to taking your ball and going home.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

What 'cheap shot' Chris? I called you for what you said. I would also call you for scrambled grammar in the above, but I learned in previous exchanges that it's considered unfair to point out verbal incompetence. So instead I'll just thank you again for playing to stereotypes.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Secondly, slavery ended in America in 1865. Done finished over with. There is probably no one alive today who is a first generation "freedman" and certainly nobody alive today who actually was a slave. Ditto for slave owners, traders, whatever. They are all gone.

Therefore nobody today can claim that they were directly harmed as a result of slavery (racism being a whole different issue). Nobody alive today is a direct recipient of the economic 'benefits' of slavery.

Basically as a point of law there is no guilty party to blame and no injured party to compensate.

The rest of the problems (poverty, criminality, family disfunction) are the result of many things (paramount one being personally irresponsible) but NOT slavery.

Lets get real and lets lighten up on being internet warriors to the point of insulting each other.

I think you need to go back and read some of the earlier posts. Better yet, read American history for the century after the war. Blacks were systematically deprived of their rights as citizens for most of that period and have been economically discriminated against to the present day. Some achieved despite the obstacles. More would have without the obstacles, and overall the effects of that discrimination remain with us (please see my earlier cite from the Census Bureau). To deny it is at best lazy, at worst willful.

[FloridaConfederate]

Blacks were systematically deprived of their rights as citizens for most of that period and have been economically discriminated against to the present day. Some achieved despite the obstacles.

Betcha dont want to talk about and promote how they achieved ?

Come on Mike...can we focus on what to learn from and how to build on success of the scores of black leaders (civil rights, religious and other just everyday good family folks)..I am surrounded by them in my community and business. Everyone here knows I am a baaaad baaaaad person, the penultimate uhliterit, fatbody so enough about me

Or

Continue to promote perpetual victimization whose only answer is at the hand of a .gov bureaucrat.

Or

Just more Chris is an illiterate racist. That word has become so impotent. The moment they labeled Bill Clinton, America's First Black President with racist undertones. Poof powerless.

Racism is the death rattle of the liberal in an debate.

At least counter Juan Williams, he is a black man on NPR for crikes sake.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[bob 125th nysvi]

I think you need to go back and read some of the earlier posts. Better yet, read American history for the century after the war. Blacks were systematically deprived of their rights as citizens for most of that period and have been economically discriminated against to the present day. Some achieved despite the obstacles. More would have without the obstacles, and overall the effects of that discrimination remain with us (please see my earlier cite from the Census Bureau). To deny it is at best lazy, at worst willful.

you need to reread my post which dealt with compensation due to slavery not your offended liberal sensitivities.

MANY people were denied their "civil rights" during many periods of American History. Women had none, what compensation do we owe them?

My Irish Catholic Ancestors were denied economic opportunites, What compensation do we owe them?

Ditto for my Italian ancestors who were also forced into ghettos by landlords who denied them housing outside Italian neighborhoods. What compensation do we owe them?

How about people who weren't allowed to vote because they weren't taxpayers? Or when you had to be 21 to vote? Were all 18-20 year olds denied their rights? What compensation do we owe them?

Census Statistics are a snapshot of a moment in time. They do not indicate cause nor affect of actions just what is. If you read documents written right after the reconstruction by abolitionists who went south to help the freedman you will find complaints about their lack of industry. Does that mean they were lazy or just didn't meet the standards of a religious fanatic? I don't know I wasn't there I just can read what is written.

My ancestors overcame many obstacles and discrimination AND they arrived after the Civil War and acheived a degree of economic success. When I have an employee who can't or won't do their job (regardless of ethinicity) is that to be put down to past injustices or lack of industry?

You are extrapolating what you want to extrapolate by choosing to interpet statistics to mean what you want them to.

Let me ask you a question is the failure of sub-Saharan African governments to acheive reasonable governments and economic success due to slavery (which by the way was an economic institution they employed), colonialism, racism or is it a failure of the people on the spot?

Answer it for yourself and then apply that answer to America. It will tell you where your biases lie.

I want to put the current blame on individuals and current laws. If we were in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, I'd think you would have an argument. For 140 years ago you have none that is logical.

[FloridaConfederate]

you need to reread my post..... not your offended liberal sensitivities.



This. + Eleventy million. If I posted that it would get nuked in a second.

Bully Bob.

I was wrong and short sighted that the battles of my forefathers continued on today in terms of geographic boundaries.

Today's battles are not divided by North and South.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hanktrent]

Let me ask you a question is the failure of sub-Saharan African governments to acheive reasonable governments and economic success due to slavery (which by the way was an economic institution they employed), colonialism, racism or is it a failure of the people on the spot?

Answer it for yourself and then apply that answer to America. It will tell you where your biases lie.

See my post #55. (http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101465&postcount=55) I even mentioned the example of Africa (Liberia).

Even though I believe in self-determination and am something of a social Darwinist, I'm still trying to avoid concluding that blacks have demographic problems because the racial stereotypes are true. I really really want to pin their American problems on racism, and their African problems on being native to a continent with different climate and fertility issues than Europe.

But if blacks are behind whites on a broad demographic basis, both in America and globally, and it's not due to external problems, is the conclusion inescapable that "those people" really "are that way," as I said in the post linked above?

In the 1860s, one could point to Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman and say, "See, they succeeded through their own efforts despite slavery. You can too." If I were a slave father and had a slave child, that's exactly what I'd say to him or her. But it wouldn't change the fact that, at the same time, I'd believe slavery was a hindrance to success.

So is it possible to believe that any given black person can succeed through his or her own efforts, while at the same time believing that there are greater barriers to success for black people than white people? And that that's what makes them less successful overall on a broad demographic basis, and not their own collective laziness and irresponsibility?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[FloridaConfederate]

Putting on my Darwin vision for a second:

HT do I understand Post #55 to suggest there could be anatomic / physiological differences between the races (fast twitch muscle fibering is an oft scientific mentioned example) with demonstrated repeatability which may suggest a predisposition of an individual by virtue of his race to certain characteristics of physical vs mental prowess ?

They sure thought so in 1860's.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hanktrent]

Putting on my Darwin vision for a second:

HT do I understand Post #55 to suggest there could be anatomic / physiological differences between the races (fast twitch muscle fibering is an oft scientific mentioned example) with demonstrated repeatability which may suggest a predisposition of an individual by virtue of his race to certain characteristics of physical vs mental prowess ?

They sure thought so in 1860's.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Well, obviously there are inherited genetic differences between races. I mean, take skin color as an example. :D

But really, I'm asking rather than suggesting. If the demographic differences aren't due to some outside influence which would produce the same results in any group regardless of skin color, what is the cause? The classic layman's explanation is that there are psychological traits which are inherited along with skin color--an explanation that we call "racism" today.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[FloridaConfederate]

If the demographic differences aren't due to some outside influence which would produce the same results in any group regardless of skin color, what is the cause? The classic layman's explanation is that there are psychological traits which are inherited along with skin color--an explanation that we call "racism" today.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

I alluded and posted direct words re: the mindset driving causation direct from the mouth of a black person who witnessed slavery, reconstruction and drove his own upward transition into a respected historical position.

Then I posted causation through the eyes of Juan Williams a modern black man who witnessed and is a scholar of desegregation and other civil rights milestones of the 20th Century.

Both to summarized as: Stop being a victim and do it. Yes you can as our black President says. Yes you can. Return to the traditional values of your culture and lose the entitlement mentality. Embrace the family. Realize Big Government needs to keep you dependent on their suckling and thus controlled. Good lord despite what the media and Schnapps tells you we all witness millions of people of color everyday doing just this in our communities.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Shortround]

Then, according to this, you must both be political conservatives, and thus easily frightened: http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/fearmongering-h.html

It would be interesting to know how the population broke down in 1861. Back then we ended up going to war not so much because of what Lincoln did, as what some folks thought he was going to do.

Not that there's anything wrong with your current plans. If enough people go out and start buying MREs and ammo, we may get a stimulus package going well before Congress gets around to acting.

So thank you, citizen! :)

Ah, it's alway nice to get the double barrel dose of condensention by a guy who can't get the salt for his roads in his state.

Sorry, but my argument was a worry about the FINANCIAL condition of this nation. I think this "payback" movement is a joke. Even if we gave the former slaves children the cash of "40 acreas and a mule" it works out to about $125,000. That's not a lot of money.

My degree is in Business Finance and my minor is military science. There is some really scary stuff going on in the FED and Treasury department. The book "Great Depression of Debt" has been nearly 100% true.

None of the political parties could have stopped this mess. Why? The American public wanted easy credit.

I stand by my advise to all people they should stock up on food, water, and ammo. The Iceland government has just fallen. The U.K. is on the brink of fiscal insolvency. As of today another major American bank has just closed their doors. Americans may find that their direct deposit can cut them off from cash if their bank fails. This is a worry if you have not made plans.

This is a fact. When the South knew they were losing the war in late 1863 the Confederate bonds could not be given away but these same investors would send their sons to fight in a losing war. The lesson is clear: Money is move valuable than blood back then.

I think the argument about reparations is pointless. We're all about to learn what it's like to live on little money.

[hanktrent]

Both to summarized as: Stop being a victim and do it. Yes you can as our black President says. Yes you can. Return to the traditional values of your culture and lose the entitlement mentality. Embrace the family. Realize Big Government needs to keep you dependent on their suckling and thus controlled. Good lord despite what the media and Schnapps tells you we all witness millions of people of color everyday doing just this in our communities.

I totally agree with you that that's what needs to be done, and that's how to do it. For people of any color. I'm from a Dale Carnegie, positive thinking background myself, and I can say that it works and anyone can do anything they set their mind to. I retired at 31. America is the land of opportunity, always has been, still is.

But speaking demographically, it's a fact that there are segments of society that don't "succeed" as well as others, whether that's measured in income, lack of crime, education, healthcare, whatever. African-Americans compared to whites are one of those segments, though one could pick out subsets of whites or geographic regions as well. My question is not "why are they less successful?" but "why do they choose to act in a way that makes them less successful?"

I think I see what you're saying, though. Is this a correct understanding: We've allowed blacks to assume the role of victims on the dole, and it's human nature to take advantage of that. It's a situation unique to blacks in this country, because it's not an opportunity (or temptation) that whites have had in this country as a whole. So blacks, demographically as a whole, are worse off than whites because they've had a temptation to be lazy and irresponsible, that whites haven't had as a whole.

I'm still not sure that racism isn't the current cause of the difference, but that certainly works for me as explanation, to explain at least part of the difference if not all of it.

I'm still not sure where the tipping point would be between doing too little and doing too much: is it all the fault of the Freedman's Bureau for coddling ex-slaves? Or did it happen much later after the civil rights movement? Or earlier when slaves themselves were taught that begging from the master was the best way to get favors?

But that's a great answer to the question, that gets around the uncomfortable conclusion that if the difference isn't due to racism, it must be something unique to the black race. Temptation is universal. Thank you!

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[FloridaConfederate]

145 or so years ago some thought this:


"They are much more willing to work than I supposed, but a lazy white man will do more work in a day than half a dozen of the smartest specimens"

US Lt Charles B Stoddard to his aunt, manuscript 7/7/63 Harvard


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

I dont know now but I may bring home a little contraband to nurse Aggy and tote up wood and help about the kitchen, but they are all so lazy I dont know about it...the n*****s down here are not worth 3 cents...some of them [are] willing to work but you have to tell them everything you want done. I have to tell the oldest monkey (about 6 years old) to keep the flies off the table every time I set down. They and their mother lays around on the ground like hogs and only gets up to Cook when told"

Indiana Cpt. Gilmore Jordan to his homefolk 8/17/62 manuscript Indiana Historical Society

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

"Christmas. So the n****s all say for it is a holiday with them reality. From Christmas to New Years they are free to dance, make love, ride like mad, race horses and raise the devil generally-----On the whole I think a system of servitude & serfdom better for both whites & blacks than immediate emancipation. It is true there are many of the blacks well qualified to take care of themsevles, but the masses are lazy and shiftless and would become worthless vagabonds if free. They think to be free is to be free from labor....A large portion of the blacks would v'ery soon become intolerable nuisances & mentallly they are nothing else."

Diary of Capt Oliver Lyman Spaulding 12/25/1863 manuscript Univ of Michigan


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

"I feel now much inclined to go to Nashville and throw up my papers and Resign as I am heartily sick of Coaxing n******s to be Soaldiers Any more. They are so trifleing and mean the[y] dont Deserve to be free."

James T Ayers recruiting colored men in Alabama The Diary of James T Ayers
Springfield Illinois 1947 p46

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

"If a solider goes down Town, ten to one he doesnt get insulted by n*****s & he cant open his head because if he does, or insults a n****r back, touches or strikes him...[he] is sentanced to Fort Macon for 6 months with a ball and chain to leg to live on hard tac & water and Pay stopped...I for one do not like niger society"

NB Bartlett in New Bern NC to his brother 8/2/1864 manuscript Chicago Historical Society

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

As you can see from these quotes there were some seriously hardcore views in the Federal Army.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[sbl]

As long as quoting long dead jerks comforts you...

[FloridaConfederate]

As long as quoting long dead jerks comforts you...

The Letch Death Rattle.

It is like a long string of tickets streaming out of a skee ball machine.

Confirms you indeed hit the mark.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[sbl]

Time to knock this off Chris. You're not the hero here quoting long dead statements of people who never meant this to be public. You don't know how they felt later in their later lives. Don't throw "hardcore" around either as that word had no meaning for them.

[flattop32355]

Ya leave on Friday for a meeting, and come back on Sunday evening, and check the forum........

Can't I leave you people alone ever? ;)

[sbl]

Reading white men's opinions on blacks does not take into account that recently freed slaves may not want to work like slaves anymore. James T Ayers was trying recruit men to fight, something many white men tried to avoid.

[tompritchett]

I think that we can all agree that not all the social reforms of LBJ's Great Society ended up making the life better for all black Americans. Yes, the Civil Rights reforms and Affirmative Action reforms opened doors for blacks that had been closed for them since before the Civil War. However it seems that the other reforms such as the entitlement programs may have had an overall negative aspect by creating generations used to living off of the government and even feeling penalized for trying to better themselves by earning extra money. And then there were the Great Society housing projects which many became breeding ponds for drugs and crime and effectively became no-law zones where the police would rarely dare. We can all argue all day long about why the 2000 census shows black families having a lower median income than white families but I think that we will find that it is a fair more complex issue than just the long-term residual effects of slavery or just an inherent defect in the race itself (a theory I strongly disagree with). I do believe that there is some truth in what Cosby and others have said that black Americans need to forget about the past of 150 years ago and start focussing on dealing with their own problems within their own community, because ultimately it will be the black community and not the whites or the government that will turn the tables on seemingly never ending cycle of poverty that entraps so many black inner city families.

[hanktrent]

Back in high school, a teacher pointed something out which I've always remembered, since it struck me as particularly clever.

He said that if you were a slave, the smartest thing to do was start a rumor that you and your kind were lazy and couldn't do much work. So when the master complains to the overseer that not enough work is being done, the overseer says, "You know how those negroes are. They're so lazy I'm lucky to get them to work at all." The master agrees because everybody knows that's true, and the slaves, meanwhile, get the same food and housing, but for less work than might be required if everyone assumed the opposite and there were no excuses not to get the maximum labor.

I doubt it was that simple, but under the conditions of slavery, it's such a useful strategy that it's hard to believe it didn't occur subconsciously and accidentally, if not consciously and deliberately.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Pvt Schnapps]

Census Statistics are a snapshot of a moment in time.

Yeah, but it beats ranting.

[Pvt Schnapps]

As you can see from these quotes there were some seriously hardcore views in the Federal Army.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Thanks for continuing to reinforce negative stereotypes about white men. That last string of quotes validates all my liberal friends who think reenactors delight in the biases of the past.

[sbl]

Hank the other factor is that we have a "powerful" majority doing studies on a "powerless" minority. Dolphins don't publish studies of humans, but I'm sure dolphins have learned to survive around us. ( My kids "swam with the dolphins" last summer and the dolphins got fish for tolerating them) ;)

Quoting soldier comments on blacks only proves that soldiers had opinions rather than that blacks were actually "that way."

[sbl]

As I wrote to Hank, these quotes only prove that soldiers had opinions. I looked for a few positive quotes in Billy Yank, Hard Marching every Day, All for the Union,etc. and these were of individual black people. CAPT. ADAMS of the Nineteen Mass both critizes blacks and is grateful to the ones that helped him escape prison.
I'd post some quotes but will this add any more light to the subject? (My hands are kind of stiff to.)

[Pvt Schnapps]

[removal of deleted material; THP]

No period research materials from you eh ?

[removal of deleted material; THP]

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

deletion- THP; getting personal

I've done enough research for others on this thread. If folks want to bloviate rather than read, that's their business. As for me, right now I'm more interested in researching women's underclothing. ;)

[plankmaker]

If you look hard enough, you can find statements to support any of your opinions.

My readings on the AoJ almost always state that the USCTs were respected because they EARNED the respect.

http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-new-market-heights-usct-soldiers-proved-their-heroism.htm

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[hanktrent]

Quoting soldier comments on blacks only proves that soldiers had opinions rather than that blacks were actually "that way."

That seemed so obvious that I wasn't quite sure what the choice of quotes was meant to indicate, other than to document the period belief in a stereotype that really isn't being disputed. Whether the stereotype reflected objective reality, and if so why, is the real issue. Almost by definition, you can find numerous quotes reinforcing common stereotypes: that Yankees were money-grubbing swindlers, that southern whites were sickly and lazy, that Irishmen were drunkards, that northern women were pushy and opinionated, and so forth.

There were plenty of stereotypes to go around. Check this (http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA540&lr=&id=-GECAAAAIAAJ&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&output=html)out (citation at the link):



"...the three millions of poor whites,--the ignorant, half-starved, lazy vermin you have just seen. They are the real basis of our Southern oligarchy, as you call it," continued my host, still laughing.

"I thought the negroes were the serfs in your feudal system?"

"Both the negroes and the poor whties are the serfs, but the white trash are its real support. Their votes give the small minority of slave-owners all their power. You say we control the Union. We do, and we do it by the votes of these people, who are as far below our niggers as the niggers are below decent white men."

Another truism I read long ago, that I've found surprisingly apt, is that there are generally contradictory sets of stereotypes, so that if a person is guided by stereotypes, he can always find one to fit. So negroes were either simple, lazy and stupid, or they were clever, crafty, and always looking for a way to poison the master or escape.

This works not only for the topic under discussion, but for a wide range: Italians are either friendly family-loving folks, or secretive angry mobsters; Germans are either easy-going beer-drinking Oktoberfesters, or uptight disciplinarians, and so forth.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[sbl]

Sorry to be obvious and obscure at the same time. ;)

There is the factor of the positive stereotype. Asians good with math, hard working folks from India. (Hot women from the Dominican Republic) That's from my work experience.

On the other hand every place I've worked had a fat unhappy blond woman in power that made others miserable. If someone finds this message in 150 years will it be true or just my wise@$$ period observation, and will the reader know the difference?

Hank, the period quotes can be ballenced by other period quotes.

[tompritchett]

Tom our oh so impartial moderator will let your personal shots and those from his like minded far leftist pards stand so have at it.

I allow people to challenge other peoples' statement as long as the challenge is to the statement and not to the person. You can disagree with a person and state that disagreement. What you can not do is go to the next step and make comments about the person himself. That latter step is what will get your posts either edited (when I have time) or just deleted. Also remember, often you will only know those post of yours that I have deleted because only a moderator can see all the deleted posts in a thread. Trust me, there are several from this morning that are going to get deleted.

[FloridaConfederate]

I allow people to challenge other peoples' statement as long as the challenge is to the statement and not to the person. You can disagree with a person and state that disagreement. What you can not do is go to the next step and make comments about the person himself. That latter step is what will get your posts either edited (when I have time) or just deleted. Also remember, often you will only know those post of yours that I have deleted because only a moderator can see all the deleted posts in a thread. Trust me, there are several from this morning that are going to get deleted.

Fair enough. I look forward to seeing parity in moderating.

Tom you do a good job...but I think it is fair to say you let your dislike of me temper your desicions.

A good cop, lawyer, judge, arbitrator, moderator keeps (or should keep in the old pre-2008 America) his personal feelings at bay during his use of the heavy hand.

I can only pray for your return to that standard.

Respectfully,

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[tompritchett]

Tom you do a good job...but I think it is fair to say you let your dislike of me temper your desicions.

Actually Chris, I do not dislike you. I just have problems when you get personal with people just as I dislike anyone who gets personal with anyone.

[plankmaker]

Tom,

This guy has nothing on you by ways of serving out justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[tompritchett]

Tom,

This guy has nothing on you by ways of serving out justice.

Sometimes here I do feel like the priests who are banging the boards against their heads. :D

[tompritchett]

While I have very strong feelings against the idea of reparations, after reading the comments on this thread, I am not sure that I am against the idea of a commission provided that it also be given the mandate to examine what has and has not worked to alleviate the median gap between black family incomes and those of other ethnic groups. This mandate should be broad and all-encompassing with no sacred cows exempt from critical examination. Therefore, the commission would look at all the welfare reforms, inner city educational reforms, prison reforms, the effects of the war on drugs, the effects of "no child left behind", the effectiveness of programs such as head start, and both the positive and negative effects of the various entitlement programs. If we are going to have a commission, then it needs to be serious fact finding study and not just a window dressing effect to pacify the dissents and diffuse a feeling of collective guilt by some politicians.

[plankmaker]

Tom,

I figured you to be more of a silly walk person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[mnreb]

Why is it always us? If we have to, or should, or whatever, what about those who sold them into slavery in the first place.People in Africa. Why is that never mentioned? What aoout South America,Central America, and other places that purchased slaves from Africa. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it always seems to be layed at our front door. Just a thought.

Bill Feuchtenberger
"It Do"

[flattop32355]

Why is it always us? If we have to, or should, or whatever, what about those who sold them into slavery in the first place.People in Africa. Why is that never mentioned? What aoout South America,Central America, and other places that purchased slaves from Africa. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it always seems to be layed at our front door. Just a thought.

Two main reasons:
1) Our pockets are deeper.
2) A segment of our population has a guilt complex about anything and everything that wasn't/isn't perfect within our society, and we must be made to pay for our "sins", past and present, to atone and rid them of their part of the guilt, real or imagined.

Other than that, no reason.

[tompritchett]

and we must be made to pay for our "sins", past and present, to atone and rid them of their part of the guilt, real or imagined.

I can remember seeing quotes from the latter part of the Civil War era saying the same thing about the blood spilled in the war being an atonement for the evil of slavery.

[sbl]

Why is it always us? If we have to, or should, or whatever, what about those who sold them into slavery in the first place.People in Africa. Why is that never mentioned? What aoout South America,Central America, and other places that purchased slaves from Africa. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it always seems to be layed at our front door. Just a thought.

Bill Feuchtenberger
"It Do"

Bill, I'm not advocating reparations, but the groups in Africa responsible for selling slave don't exist anymore as responsible powers. They became European colonies within a few years of the end of the slave trade, then independent countries in the late 1900s. The same could be said of Latin American countries. If slave descendants in those countries wish to seek reparations that's their responsibility.

The United States was a power then, although slavery began when we were colonies, and the United States still exists. Slavery was legal under the United States which still exists to right that wrong. Now I have come to believe that the Union victory dealt with that. As I've noted before, there may be reparations due from corporations that profited from post-was involuntary servitude then that still exist.

[FloridaConfederate]

Corporations / profit = bad.... buzzword: windfall profits

Entitlement / fairness = good.. buzzword: social justice through needs based determinations

The new paradigm.

Christopher Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

[removal of deleted material - THP]


If that means what I think it means...... you post it only because the LAW OF GIC is in place.

Have a nice day.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[flattop32355]

I gotta buzzword for you right here.

Sorry, Scott, but Chris has some merit in his last post.

While all entitlements don't fall under the catagory of Make-Up-Calls, some do, and some of the things that are being suggested to do as well.

The idea of getting on with it, and making one's own way in the world has fallen by the wayside. That said, it is always amazing to me the number of people who applied for pensions over the years after the war who didn't really appear to have earned it.

[FloridaConfederate]

Sorry, Scott, but Chris has some merit in his last post.




Gooooooood niiiiiiiiight. I am going to walk outside and if the world isn't presently being sucked into a vortex.....

I'll be right back am gwine go buy a lottery ticket.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, FLorida

[sbl]

Sorry, Scott, but Chris has some merit in his last post.

While all entitlements don't fall under the catagory of Make-Up-Calls, some do, and some of the things that are being suggested to do as well.

The idea of getting on with it, and making one's own way in the world has fallen by the wayside. That said, it is always amazing to me the number of people who applied for pensions over the years after the war who didn't really appear to have earned it.

I'm going on my opinion that the United State's victory paid for slavery and that other countries and peoples have look out for themselves. I don't think Chris' tone would be acceptable in a face to face discussion and would earn more that "right here." Listening to some of the debate off this forum, I agree that getting on with it would be better than debate that just divides us and causes some to look for the problem with black people.

[FloridaConfederate]

Tone ?

On the internets ?

By your estimation or factual ?

[deletion - THP; getting personal]

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Poor Private]

[deletion - THP; getting personal]
While he may sometimes have valid points or statements, in my opinion his attitude diminishs what he wishes to impart.
The only ones who may be entitled to repartations are long dead. This is my opinion, and I will stick by it.
You want more in life--get off your butt and earn it.
You want respect and trust- you do not automatically get them, those have to earned also.

[FloridaConfederate]

Cris

Since you felt the need to stick your neck in...

I know I busted your kiwis about your statement about catching diseases from spooning with your pards....so you thought this was the oppty to pile on.

I didnt crank it up until called a racist.

If Scott were to do it to my face..fur would fly. I am crazy old fashioned that way.

Thanks for playing now run along and wash your hands.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[tompritchett]

Unfortunately, I am having to close this thread now. The dialog has gone from pure discussion to some personal comments directed at individuals. Since we can no longer discuss this topic in a civil manner, it is time to end it.