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penn-state-engr
07-24-2006, 12:02 PM
Hello everyone. I would like your help in locating a period correct Artillery Bugle for my Battery. I have tried some of the repros and they sound horrible. Any help locating one would be greatly appreciated.

RJSamp
07-24-2006, 01:09 PM
Well you can buy an AMATI big belled bugle (clairon) in Bb from The Woodwinds and the Brasswinds out of South Bend IN....about $105.

Or Jan-Henrik Berger is wrapping final design/tooling on a Copper Clairon in C with a pigtail crook to Bb.....under $200 and available soon.....

Many of us have WWI era clairons in Bb off of eBay. Period Correct. Bob Pallansch can repair them. They weren't numerous in the US during the ACW but they had enough of them that you can get away with them.

rjsamp@ameritech.net
and join bugle@yahoogroups.com

RJ Samp

penn-state-engr
07-24-2006, 01:24 PM
Thank you for the info. I am looking at the Amati ABG201 Bb Bugle .

Kimmel
07-24-2006, 07:54 PM
I got mine for 109 at Amati

toptimlrd
08-04-2006, 01:40 AM
Jean Baptiste also makes a conical large bell Bb that works well. To defarb it though you will need to have the water key removed and the hole soldered. I bought mine for $99 including a case which I believe the Amati is missing.

Kimmel
08-04-2006, 12:05 PM
Jean Baptiste also makes a conical large bell Bb that works well. To defarb it though you will need to have the water key removed and the hole soldered. I bought mine for $99 including a case which I believe the Amati is missing.

Yeah... there's no case with the Amati, but mine get's scrathed to heck anyway :-)

RJSamp
08-04-2006, 01:15 PM
Jean Baptiste also makes a conical large bell Bb that works well. To defarb it though you will need to have the water key removed and the hole soldered. I bought mine for $99 including a case which I believe the Amati is missing.


Would cost too much to get the water key removed, soldered (acutally patched!), and this could change the sound/tuning.

and you don't need a case, even for air transportation in luggage.

I'd wait for Herr Berger to come up with his copper clairon.....or buy a WWI era Bb off of eBay.

toptimlrd
08-04-2006, 08:18 PM
Would cost too much to get the water key removed, soldered (acutally patched!), and this could change the sound/tuning.

and you don't need a case, even for air transportation in luggage.

I'd wait for Herr Berger to come up with his copper clairon.....or buy a WWI era Bb off of eBay.

Actually if one is handy with a soldering iron and uses a proper patch the sound is not diminished and it really doesn't cost too much (the piece of brass I used cost me about $2 at the local instrument repair shop). The nice thing about the case is that you don't end up with a crushed tube from being mishandled in transport or some monkey loading the plane putting that steamer trunk on top of it. Sorry pards I do take care of my instruments that's why I still play the same horn I had in High School and College and it looks about as good today as the day I bought it.

Are the WWI horns the right shape and size? I thought they were closer looking to today's F and G bugles. I also would love a copper clarion, but unfortunately they aren't available right now and I would imagine there will be quite the waiting list. I know I am on a waiting list of about 2 years for a Bb soprano Saxhorn now.

Also, a way to avoid it looking scratched is to remove the laquer, you can always polish out some of the finer scratches that way plus the duller finish gives it more character in my opinion. Nope, it really doesn't change the sound either; many professional horn players have raw brass instruments. For my normal playing I prefer a Silver horn, but that is a personal preference as I seem to find the silver to have a bit darker tone for "normal" playing.

RJSamp
08-04-2006, 10:50 PM
"Actually if one is handy with a soldering iron and uses a proper patch the sound is not diminished and it really doesn't cost too much (the piece of brass I used cost me about $2 at the local instrument repair shop). "

That's beyond most musician's and buglers that I know.....for a few dollars more you can get a more period looking horn without the water key....or the need for an unauthentic water key patch.


"The nice thing about the case is that you don't end up with a crushed tube from being mishandled in transport or some monkey loading the plane putting that steamer trunk on top of it. Sorry pards I do take care of my instruments that's why I still play the same horn I had in High School and College and it looks about as good today as the day I bought it."

I just wrap my hornS (I usually bring two or three, including a valved trumpet) up in the uniform and place it in a carryon....no problems with dents scratches monkey baggage handlers xray machines or steamer trunks. and no need for a non period case. I still have my Conn Connstellation from 8th grade.....1968. It's in great shape. No need to insinuate that a bugle needs a case or the rest of us are not taking care of our horns. I'll take it you haven't used your bugle whilst mounted on a horse or used it to parry a sabre blow.


"Are the WWI horns the right shape and size? I thought they were closer looking to today's F and G bugles."

On the contrary. If you had read my earlier message in this thread you'd realize that the WWI clairon's (not British Duty Bugles, M1894 Field Bugles in Bb, nor M1892 F/G Field Trumpets) are of the same basic design from 1845 or even before. And some were used during the American Civil War. Couesnon has been making clairons in Chateau Thierry since about 1830....

F and G 'bugles' are usually trumpets (predominantly cylindrical tubing as opposed to conical)....including the Boy Scout and 'Army' bugles (which are derived from the Pattern of 1892 Field Trumpet in G...the design being changed somewhat in 1929).

"I also would love a copper clarion, but unfortunately they aren't available right now and I would imagine there will be quite the waiting list. "

They will be available shortly....and there isn't a waiting list. Once production starts there will be a ton of them available for under $200 delivered in the US with a pigtail crook to Bb. Robb Stewart out in the SF Valley in CA had quoted us a couple of years to make them in copper...for nearly $1,200 each with a crook. Pass.

"I know I am on a waiting list of about 2 years for a Bb soprano Saxhorn now.
"

Different animal.

toptimlrd
08-10-2006, 12:01 AM
"I just wrap my hornS (I usually bring two or three, including a valved trumpet) up in the uniform and place it in a carryon....no problems with dents scratches monkey baggage handlers xray machines or steamer trunks. and no need for a non period case. I still have my Conn Connstellation from 8th grade.....1968. It's in great shape. No need to insinuate that a bugle needs a case or the rest of us are not taking care of our horns. I'll take it you haven't used your bugle whilst mounted on a horse or used it to parry a sabre blow."

No insinuation meant, It's just I do see many bugles on the field that look like they have been run through the mill. And nope I haven't had the pleasure of being on horseback or deflecting a sabre as I am in infantry. Also I prefer being in the ranks during a battle and am still working on my bugler impression (learning all the calls) for garrison type events. Now if someone would loan me a horse so I could join cavalry ........wink. As to the non period case, I don't bring the case out to an event, just use it to transport and store.

Likewise, I bought a three horn gig bag for my son for performances, but he keeps his horns in their hardwood cases for transport and normal storage.

By the way, have you had any problem with the lead pipe on your constellation pitting internally with so many years of use? My King is starting to show some fairly heavy pitting in the lead pipe and that is with very regular cleaning. I'm wondering if it is something I am not doing right and am considering having the lead pipe replaced.

"On the contrary. If you had read my earlier message in this thread you'd realize that the WWI clairon's (not British Duty Bugles, M1894 Field Bugles in Bb, nor M1892 F/G Field Trumpets) are of the same basic design from 1845 or even before. And some were used during the American Civil War. Couesnon has been making clairons in Chateau Thierry since about 1830...."

Sorry, I missed that post and I admit some ignorance to the bugles of WWI, I was thinking about the 1894 and British Field duty models which I am most familiar with from that period.

"They will be available shortly....and there isn't a waiting list. Once production starts there will be a ton of them available for under $200 delivered in the US with a pigtail crook to Bb. Robb Stewart out in the SF Valley in CA had quoted us a couple of years to make them in copper...for nearly $1,200 each with a crook. Pass."

Sounds promising on the price and availability, since I collect as well as play, I may have to try one out and buy if I like the playability (another reason I picked the Jean Baptiste over the Armati was the "feel" to it. The same reason I play a Silver Flair vs. a Strat now, I am more comfortable with the horn.

"I know I am on a waiting list of about 2 years for a Bb soprano Saxhorn now.
"

Different animal."

Agreed, but looking forward to it.

I really didn't mean to start a thread that could cause any disagreement, just wanted to point out that there was another horn on the market that would be suitable. I believe that anyone with an interest knows how few companies actually make a conical Bb bugle and I was surprised to find the Baptiste in a local music store. I was also surprised to learn how affordable the new ones with the correct pigtail will be. Any idea when they may become available?

Thanks for some great information.

Bugler Don
01-23-2008, 08:48 PM
I recently bought the Jean Baptiste Bugle and love it. I looks just like a Clairon except for the spit valve. For now I just removed it and covered it with my bugle cord until I can get it patched. The tone is a little airy due to the mouthpiece, but for the price and use, it's perfect. Too bad Bach doesn't make one.

toptimlrd
01-23-2008, 09:59 PM
Don,

Which mouthpiece are you using that gives it an airy sound? One thing I do which may not be historically accurate but helps with the tone is I use my modern Bach 1 1/2C which is the mouthpiece I am accustomed to and I seem to get a rich sound. You also mention removing the water key but have not had it patched, if you have an open hole in the tubing it will toally screw up the sound. Like you though, I found the Baptiste to be a bit more comfortable for e to play than the Amati but I have always had a bit ofstrange emochure becse I have cupid's bow upper lip which caed me to have to rebuild my embrochure in high school after my band director identified the problem my middle school director never took the time to examine (I had a lot of trouble getting decent range or tonefor the first three years I played).

RJSamp
01-23-2008, 11:43 PM
We've sold some 50 JanHenrik Berger Copper bugles so far.....

let me know if you need one.

Bugler Don
01-24-2008, 04:34 PM
The mouthpiece that came with it is what caused the airy sound. My Bach mouth piece doesn't fit well but my cornet mouthpiece sorta works. It only sounds really airy when I play taps so I use another mouth piece for that. I did something extremely unauthentic and covered the hole with tape, haha. I then cover it with the cord and you can't tell there is something going on. I will get it patched soon. I can't believe how much it looks like a Clairon. I wonder if they planned that.

toptimlrd
01-24-2008, 09:36 PM
RJ,

I hope to see you one day so I can look at those Berger bugles I expect they are exceptional.

toptimlrd
01-24-2008, 09:40 PM
The mouthpiece that came with it is what caused the airy sound. My Bach mouth piece doesn't fit well but my cornet mouthpiece sorta works. It only sounds really airy when I play taps so I use another mouth piece for that. I did something extremely unauthentic and covered the hole with tape, haha. I then cover it with the cord and you can't tell there is something going on. I will get it patched soon. I can't believe how much it looks like a Clairon. I wonder if they planned that.

Your mouthpiece should have fit. As to taps, it is generally not approriate since although it was written during the war, its use was not widespread.

Bugler Don
01-24-2008, 10:58 PM
On the contrary I have heard stories of how Taps (Butterfield's Lullaby) quickly spread in 1862 when it was first sounded. What that has to do with the bugle I don't know, but I feel it is the only call appropriate for memorials, services, and after reenactments. My point was simply that when I play it, I use a different mouthpiece so it has a smoother sound.

toptimlrd
01-24-2008, 11:32 PM
Although Butterfield reworked tatoo into what we know as taps and many units used it to relace extinguish lights, it as not formally adopted until after the war. I am not sure when it became common to use Taps in a memorial function (perhaps RJ can shed some light there) but many use church call as a more period answer.

Taps is quite a moving piece, trust me I played it many times in unform for Memorial Day and Veteras Day services at the National cemetery in my hometown when I was younger (in ROTC) as well as a number of flag retirement services; but I question its widespread use among re-enactors. I have not found any period reference to its use in memorial services from the period but would be glad to stand corrected if there is such a reference.

Bugler Don
01-24-2008, 11:53 PM
I don't know, but my view is our audience is the public and the public knows Taps. Although authenticity is very important; to quote my old band director, "sometimes you need to play for your audience". Perhaps I'm wrong, but it always gets a good response and a solemn feeling.

toptimlrd
01-25-2008, 12:08 AM
I understand, it really wasn't a criticism as I know this is a somewhat common practice at some events and it does make me wonder what if any bugle call may have been used for memorial type services in the period. I am trying to get my mind around all the infantry calls as it is and try to forget all the modern ones that were drilled (literally) into my head in high school ROTC and military college as a trumpeter / bugler.

Now as to the piper that decided to play amazing grace at the end of an event I was at .......... (BTW I played the pipes for a while too so I love the pipes when they appropriate)

Bugler Don
01-25-2008, 01:15 PM
I love the pipes, but I see what mean at the end of an event. At a special ceremony maybe, but not after like a battle reenactment. To get back on topic though; I love the Jean Baptiste Bugle even though their instruments usually aren't that good.

hiplainsyank
01-25-2008, 03:31 PM
The reason church call is also appropriate to use at the end of a battle reenactment is beacuse it was used for PArley. Not only is church call moving, but is historically relevant as well.

toptimlrd
01-25-2008, 10:18 PM
I love the pipes, but I see what mean at the end of an event. At a special ceremony maybe, but not after like a battle reenactment. To get back on topic though; I love the Jean Baptiste Bugle even though their instruments usually aren't that good.


I was surprised too since Baptiste is generally a basic line horn and not known for its tonal quality.

Jari
01-27-2008, 05:43 AM
Great to see some bugle talk here.

May I suggest you sign up for the National Civil War Field Music School at Pamplin Park June 13-15. So far we have 9 buglers registered!
www.nationalcivilwarfieldmusicschool.com

We have a youtube ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAE28u7KukY

George Rabbai is our head Bugle instructor and we will have a few of the Berger Bugles to try out. I just received 8 of them last week and they all went quickly. I am going to place an order for anyone attending the school who wishes to purchase one.

As far as Taps goes may I suggest www.tapsbugler.com for reference on history of the call.

Best Regards

Jari Villanueva
Music Director, National Civil War Field Music School

Bugler Don
01-27-2008, 01:09 PM
I wish I could go to that, especially since I'm a new bugler, but I'm still not sure. My schedule for June is crazy. I'm pretty sure the rest of the field music from my regiment is planning on going. If I don't get to go this year, I will definitely go next year.