coats for ladies

[mi1stcav]

To any and all who may view this. At the behest of my wife I should like to pose a question in which I seek an answer. Does anyone know what a woman who was in camp, albeit rare, would wear as a jacket/coat? And a follow up If i may. Any links or places I would look for such an item? Thank you in advance. As the season looms on the horizon I wish to all a safe and happy campaign.

[tompritchett]

I am going to post a copy of this thread down in the Civilian Discussion thread as there may be individuals there who do not routinely monitor this conference but could answer your question.

[mi1stcav]

thank you Tom.

[ElizabethClark]

Well, she'd wear a woman's coat or jacket, same as she would in any outdoor setting requiring a warm wrap. :)

If it's not terribly cold, a simple shawl and hood can work well, though.

Are you needing to find a warm wrap ready-made, or will it be made at home?

[Drygoods]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Civil-War-era-CDV-Lady-in-Mourning-Furs-and-a-Muff_W0QQitemZ390023076277QQcmdZViewItemQQptZArt_P hoto_Images?hash=item390023076277&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1209%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Above is a nice winter image of a lady. I have my doubts about the mourning description, but it's a good example of how to briefly wrap up. Two nice coat patterns that I would suggest would be either the paletote made by Kay Knagley or the long one made my Period Impressions. I cannot explain why, but many women don't even own a period style coat. To me, this sounds as absurd as women who walk around with blankets tied around them every morning and night. If you wear a coat, your wife should too, it just makes sense to be warm, and look historically accurate all the while.

If your wife is young, you might want to try one of those snappy Spanish style jackets, heavily trimmed....they look wornderfully smart and attractive. If she cooks over an open fire, common sense tells us not to wear large sleeves or have tails swinging into the fire, so consider that too when you cut your wool coat.

[ElizabethClark]

Though, I'd caution wearing anything terribly fashionable or trimmed around the fire--it will be ruined very quickly.

[Laura K]

I do sewing in exchange for odds and ends of carpentry work. Right now I'm looking for wooden shipping boxes. I live in Virginia.

The paletot pattern would work nicely and I agree that most ladies should have one. However, an elbow length cape with a matching removable hood and quilted lining is very practical for working around camp and looks very nice for all sorts of impressions.

I have some lovely wools right now in brown,grey, blue/green plaid, and a deep red.

Let me know if you want to barter. :arrow: lakeadle@hotmail.com

[KarinTimour]

Dear Sir:

I note that you're living in Southeastern Michigan. I was born in Detroit and lived much of my childhood and early 20s in that area. I remember still how cold it can get, and you're wise to be asking about a coat.

I borrowed a full legth cape with hood one Remembrance Day and wore it on a day that was 40 degrees with wind chill bringing it to near freezing. The cape, while romantic, had to be held closed with at least one hand, had only a hook at the top, and flapped open with the slightest breeze. I could have gotten the same amount of warmth by tying a sheet around my neck as a "superman cape." I was miserable, gave the cape back to it's owner and vowed never again.

If your wife will be doing an active working impression in camp, I'd recommend layers -- a sontag, wool petticoat, double square shawl with shawl pin or tied closed, and a sacque over it all, which can be a hip length or knee length coat with long sleves that buttons or hooks. She needs layers that don't need to be held closed with one hand, as she'll need both to tend fires, move cookpots, etc.

If she's doing a more fashionable impression, I'd recommend a sacque or paletot. Mrs. Peeble's picture looks warm too, though I don't know what that coat is called.

I've done a fair amount of cold weather reenacting -- Winter 64 (20 miles from Niagara Falls in February), Recon II (down to freezing at night in the Shenandoah Valley in April), Outpost 99 (down to freezing at night in the mountains of Georgia in October), several Cedar Creeks (Shenandoah Valley in October).

I've never worked with Kay Gnagey's patterns. I know and have patronized Kay's women's clothing (corsets are terrific). I'd heard that the pattern company fiddled up some of her patterns, but I don't know if they did this to her coat patterns or not. Heidi Marsh and the Period Impressions patterns, on the other hand, I've had experience with and have heard from many others who had similar bad experiences. If your wife is an expert seamstress, and is used to altering and drafting her own patterns, she's probably got the skills to tackle a Period Impressions pattern. If not, run away, run away! The Period Impressions patterns I've tried a) left out pieces of the pattern (though they were referenced in the instructions); b) had pattern pieces of the wrong size -- in other words, the right front of the bodice was a size 16 but the rest of the pattern pieces were a size 12; and had confusing and vague directions.

I'd recommend if she hasn't already found Elizabeth Stewart Clark's website for civilians that she head over there for some really expert and diverse advice, especially on sewing. It's called "The Sewing Academy" and there is oodles of information on clothes and sewing, but it's expanded well beyond that and is worth a visit by anyone interested in a civilian impression, male or female.

A cape may be stylish, but I found it worse than useless in keeping warm in period clothing.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Drygoods]

Miss Timour,

Excellent advice about the cape. I think that capes are a waste of time really, and one must layer clothing if you're out in nasty weather. Just to clarify, I wouldn't suggest that all Period Impressions are good/bad (as I've not sewn all of them), I just meant that the paletote pattern worked up well. I do know another woman who did that pattern but was missing the back pattern piece, so after hearing your post, I wonder if it happens often?:confused:

But sir, don't give up on it, there are some nice patterns out there, and certainly it's good to have your wife warm at events with correct clothing. Blankets wrapped around one just look silly, like a scene out of bad 1954 musical.:roll: You gotta have a real coat!

[Laura K]

I can't agree that capes are impractical ...unless you have selected the wrong cape for the occasion.

The cape with one tie at the neck is for covering a ladies shoulders in evening dress as she rides in the carriage and steps out into the entry hall of the theater or restaurant. In a carriage, it's quite practical as it' can be rearranged to keep her legs and arms warm and preotects her skirts from street mud and snow.

An close fitting (hooded) elbow cape is normally fastened all the way down the front. It's made for working and as you ladies poit out, it does assume the lady is wearing suitable wool petticoats as layering. The elbow cape is only intended to keep the wind off the back, neck and shoulders. An elbow cape allows the upper arm to stay covered as she bends and reaches and works with her hands without having to touch her clothing.

A palentot is warmer than any kind of cape, and much more suitable for street wear, such as G'burg. But, it gets dirty MUCH more easily than an elbow cape due to it's length. We don't think anything of laundering our clothes, but many kinds of clothing could not be laundered back then. A lady would think twice about what kind of activity she needed to do and whether or not she would risk ruining a (perhaps irreplaceable) garment.

For street wear, I agree that a sack coat or palentot would be suitable, with a palentot being the warmer choice. If this lady is doing nothing but stitching and marketing, it would be a good choice. However, if she is truely working around the camp....cooking, maintaining the fire, washing up, etc, she needs a woolen dress, woolen petticoats and a jacket, or elbow cape.

IMHO

[Spinster]

Let's take this back to the original question--that of what a woman legitimately in the general vicinity of military camp would be wearing. Assuming she is not just visiting, but there working, she needs a an outer garment that allows her to do so.

One possible solution is shown in these images from a 2008 event in Newfane, New York, Winter of '64. Both Mrs. Shea and I were present as laundresses. Mrs. Shea, being from the area, did not think it was much cold. Me, being from Alabama, thought I was going to die at any moment :p
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc264/thlawson/w64mrslandmrsshea.jpg



The first image shows a wool sacque and petticoat, topped by a linen apron, topped by another wool sacque of longer length with a larger sleeve. Early in the day, that black striped wool sacque was worn closed over the apron and belted into place--the same belt that is holding the apron in place in the image. Do note that Mrs. Shea is in a plain wash dress, apron, and is bare headed. The wash in question is frozen solid on the line

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc264/thlawson/w64ChristianCommissionmakespies.jpg

In the second image, the plaid wool sacque and petticoat shows under the linen apron, while the black sacque is draped over my arm. At that point, I was about 3 weeks out of the hospital after a respiratory problem. Under the plaid wool sacque and petticoat was (1) another wool petticoat (2) a regular fitted bodice wool dress, (3) yet another wool petticoat, (4) and the usual compliment of underpinnings, corsetry, and multiple pairs of stockings. Mr. Heath had managed to pry me, kicking and screaming, out of a warm cabin, in order to make fried pies for the troops, in his role as the representative from the Christian Commission.

The large black wool sacque was adapted from a pattern drawn by Heidi Marsh for sacque and petticoat--very loosely adapted, as the Marsh patterns often have sizing problems. I'm an off the rack modern 18 all day long. I cut a 22 in the Marsh, and ended up adding multiple gussets to the plain dress I made. I then recut even broader in the wool to get the oversize I needed for the coat.

The plaid sacque and petticoat was cut from the Sandra Altman pattern, with significant length added. These patterns do not seem to have sizing problems, but this particular pattern seems to have a 'tilt' problem--the sacque hangs lower in the back than in the front on everyone we've ever made it for, no matter what the bust size. I also fully lined this sacque with a brown cotton. Along with a sontag and shawl, I've found it sufficient for any winter event south of the Kentucky line.

For fancy wear, I prefer Galla Rock Merchantile's Victorian Pardessuss pattern--looks hard to make, and isn't. Fits everybody we know, from 100 pounds to 350 pounds, with no changes to length, width or height, as long as we're talking grown woman. I wouldn't want to cook in it, though, because I'd have the sleeves in the buttermilk in a heartbeat.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Chawls Heath of the Christian Commision? Watch out for the lightening strikes!

[Carolann Schmitt]

Laura -

Could you post an image or link to an image of your elbow cape? I have extensive documentation on women's outerwear c.1850-1865 and I can't recall any primary source documentation for a hooded close-fitting cape that ends at the elbow. I'd love to add any information you may have to my files.

Mrs. Lawson's examples of working dress are excellent. Women's sack coats are an overlooked garment and would be another alternative. If, for some reason, a paletot is more appropriate for your wife's impression and activities, I can recommend the Homespun Patterns paletot pattern or the KayFig Paletot pattern. Both are drafted from original garments or patterns, fit well (you'll need to adjust the armscyes a bit) and go together fairly easily. They are warm, functional and versatile. A search of period images and engravings will provide hundreds of variations of the basic shapes.

Regards,

[Spinster]

Ooooohhhh thanks Mrs. Schmitt. Being only margainally skilled at sewing, I tend to cut things out by the pattern, make 'em up, and THEN figure out who gets to wear them. This is a reasonable approach when we are working in cotton, but wool is another matter. Since the KayFig coat has been floating around my cutting table for a year or more, this gives me some courage as to the fit and that nice gray wool flannel.

Ross--:p A number of folks wondered if we'd have to spend the week in duck and cover mode. Even Chawls. As is often the case, the well-researched character who lived inside his head for months beforehand, stepped out and acquited himself very nicely. The only slip was that he forgot that someone had to come get the laundresses if they intended to hold divine services on the company street, as we could not come down there without escort and reason.

When those well-researched first person characters fall into place, the results are often surprising. I've been living with one particular 'voice inside my head' for about five years now, and she's due for another outing in a couple of weeks. Dear Husband caught sight of her particular facial expression this morning as I was reading some background material for the event and said "I don't know who that woman inside your head is, but I sure am glad I'm not married to her" :mrgreen:


Po'white, with multiple personalities, in four centuries,

[KarinTimour]

Ladies:

Thank you for so much valuable information about coats and patterns!

I've got a couple extra questions to throw into the mix:

1. How long is a paletot supposed to be? I've always only seen them at mid-hip length -- are they sometimes longer? I always understood this to be more of a "fashionable" coat, something that one would be wearing if you were dressing up, not a working coat at all. Or, if my working class impression somehow got her mitts on one, it would be clearly second-hand and she would have saved it for "Sunday-go-to-meeting" wear.

2. "Ladies' sack coat" vs. "Sacque" -- Since we're always reading here about military coats, in my head, I equate the "ladies' sack coat" as being relatively the same length as a man's sack coat, while a "sacque" in my head is longer, generally just above or around the knee. I have no idea where I got these distinctions and they may be misconceptions. Would very much like to hear your opinions on length. In terms of impression and economic class, in my head, either could be for a working class woman, and a shorter sack coat would probably be more versitile when slopping the pigs, cooking, or doing laundry in frigid temperatures. Again, I've done little research in these issues and I don't know if the impressions stated above are accurate or just something that I somehow got firmly (and erroneously) stuck in my head.

3. Mrs. Lawson, love the pictures of Winter '64! Though I am amazed that Mrs. Shea was captured so clearly on film, as she's such a hard-working woman that I thought any attempt would only result in a blur. What is a "Pardessuss" and how does it differ from the appearance of the other coats?

Thank you all for chiming in with so much expertise on this question. I've got an ambition to have a nice coat for next winter. Sitting in on this discussion of the topic is helping me decide between options.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Carolann Schmitt]

1. How long is a paletot supposed to be? I've always only seen them at mid-hip length -- are they sometimes longer?

Based on my research, they usually end somewhere between mid-thigh and the knee, but you'll find examples that end anywhere from low hip to upper calf.



I always understood this to be more of a "fashionable" coat, something that one would be wearing if you were dressing up, not a working coat at all.


Paletot refers to the cut of the garment: semi-fitted or loose in the front; semi-fitted in the back, with sleeves, front closure ending somewhere between the bust and the waist. You'll find very elaborate versions made from silk with lots of trimming, and very practical versions made from wool broadcloth and no trim. A plain version with coat sleeves and ending at the mid-upper thigh is very practical for most tasks.



Or, if my working class impression somehow got her mitts on one, it would be clearly second-hand and she would have saved it for "Sunday-go-to-meeting" wear.


Not necessarily. Based on some of the advertisements and announcements I've read, the prices for the simple versions were very affordable, even for the working class.



2. "Ladies' sack coat" vs. "Sacque" -- Since we're always reading here about military coats, in my head, I equate the "ladies' sack coat" as being relatively the same length as a man's sack coat, while a "sacque" in my head is longer, generally just above or around the knee.


The two spellings are sometimes used interchangeably during the period. Here's how I define them:
A lady's "sack" coat is an outer garment. They are cut with a round neckline, with or without a collar; are loose-fitting, end somewhere between high and low hip, and have coat sleeves. Depending on fabric and embellishment, they can be plain or fancy. Summer versions were made from linen or pique; wool and velvet (or velveteen) were popular fabrics for cold weather. Winter versions may be unlined, lined or lined and wadded.

A lady's "sacque" is a loose-fitting indoor garment worn with a skirt. It is cut with a round neckline, no (or very little) shaping at the waist, high-mid hip in length, and may have open or closed sleeves. It is usually worn with the hem of the sacque over the top of the skirt; however there are images also showing the hem tucked into the skirt. Styles very from very elegant sacques made from fine cotton and embellished with whitework embroidery for at-home wear to practical versions made from sturdy fabrics.

The Victorians had dozens of descriptive names for outer garments and were remarkably inconsistent in their use. You can find engravings of the same garment in several different publications; Le Mode Illustree will call it a sacque; Godey's will describe it as a paletot; Peterson's will call it "a pardeusseus" ; and Madame Demorest will advertise it as a "traveling coat".

Generally, mid-Victorian outer garments fall into these general categories:
Shawls - square, double-square, scarves
Mantles - loose-fitting garment with shaping at the shoulders via seams or darts; curved lower edge that is shorter over the arms; length varies from hip to mid-calf.
Coats - loose or semi-fitted garments with separate sleeves (cut-on or sewn-in); length varies from mid-hip to lower calf. A paletot is a variation of a coat.
Jackets - shorter version of a coat; length from waist to mid-hip.
Cloak - loose-fitting garment without sleeves; shaping over the shoulders via seams or darts, even hem; length varies from knee to lower calf.
There are innumerable variations within each of these categories.

Regards,

[Carolann Schmitt]

Being only margainally skilled at sewing, I tend to cut things out by the pattern, make 'em up, and THEN figure out who gets to wear them. This is a reasonable approach when we are working in cotton, but wool is another matter. Since the KayFig coat has been floating around my cutting table for a year or more, this gives me some courage as to the fit and that nice gray wool flannel.


Mrs. L - You can cut the KayFig pattern according to the measurements on the size chart and you'll be fine. This one goes together VERY nicely and looks good on every body size and shape. The Homespun Patterns paletot runs small - plan on going up one or two sizes. If you decide to try that one, measure the pattern pieces minus seam allowances and pick the size that is closest to your measurements. Pay no attention to what size that is; we're not going to post it on the forum. :-)

[Drygoods]

Not that my opinion helps much to the conversation, but I agree with all that Mrs. Lawson, and Mrs. Schmitt had to say in the previous posts. As far as the debate of the paletote compared to cloak/cape, I find the tight fit of the paletote infinitely more comfortable in cold or snowy weather. Being tightly wrapped makes all the difference in keeping warm IMHO. Also, what helps a good deal if you are cooking in snowy weather, wear a wool apron. It helps to shed the snow, keeps you warm, and should you need to bend near the fire, you are less likely to catch aflame. And to prevent your apron from flapping, and holding your outer garments snug against you, you would probably want to pin the bottom of your apron, or do as my family did, tie the bottom around the skirt. I must say, I cannot confirm that they did this during the CW era, only that my G-grandmother did it over her long skirts. (She was married in 1862 and died in 1947, so I have a good deal of her stories and details well written by my family) Another thing that I know from practical experience, if you reuse a wool skirt as a reduced petticoat, if you have pleats on the front, it helps to keep the skirt from swinging too much, this helps around the fire. My mother always told me to use weights, as she did, but I always thought this silly and the weights could get hot and burn the skirt.....to each her own? Again, I cannot say this with any other documentation than this is what my family did.

Another comment about aprons over a winter fire, and worn over many layers of clothing, if you have a wider petticoat that has long ties, it will wrap much better over the side-to-back of the hips and then the ties can be brought forward so that you can tie towels around your front waist. Sometimes you only have two hands, and you need to make the most of what you have, a place to tuck a towel, or several, or pot holder comes in handy, especially if the fire is far from you kitchen door....or in this case, tent.

The sacque is a fine idea for a working garment. I find it useful when I don't want to wear a wrapper in the morning, but the two things that I don't like about the PP version is the wide neckline and the larger flared sleeve bottom. I like coats snug and tight, sleeves too.

just my 3 cents

[ElizabethClark]

Laura, I'll have to respectfully disagree with the idea that capes are the most common option, mid-century. They show up a lot in repro living history circles, but I do find them vastly over-represented now.

Any cape, regardless of closure, limits arm mobility. There are other mid-century options that do not limit mobility at all, and maintain coverage while being active (sleeved coats, close knit wraps like sontags), and show up constantly in mid-century reference (fiction and non-fiction, letters, diaries, engravings, advertisements, posed images, and "spur of the moment" occuaptional images).

It's really rare that we, in living history settings, get to experience riding in a carriage, moving from carriage to house, etc--those activities for which a cloak or cape might be best suited. Since we don't undertake those activities, we need to look at better options for the rest of life--the other 98% of women. :)

A wool coat with sleeves might pick up a bit of grim along the cuff, but that can be spot cleaned very easily. Since coats are normally made in practical colors, a good airing as needed, brushing to remove dust and soot, and spot cleaning keep them in good shape for years, without laundering, even with constant use.

My favorite coats are the semi-fitted paletot styles that function much like 1840s and 1850s basque bodices. They're attractive, but VERY functional during work, as the sleeve is close to the arm (no draft, no drooping), the close bodice stops drafts up the waist, and the overall fit is smooth... nothing to twitch into place, nothing to slip forward, nothing to spin around (I may be the only person who regularly strangles on cloaks, though). They're functional and pretty in working settings, as well as in better settings, and they're well-represented in the historic record.

I would also suggest not using woolen fabrics for coats--the looser weave of many woolen textiles, and the short fuzzy fibers, can be itchy and shrink up/felt easily. Worsted wool textiles are also insulative, but the longer staple wool fibers are a smoother, less-itchy thing, and don't felt up so much, as the weave can be tighter. Worsted wool flannel will also hold a bit of a press, making it easier to look tidy in a fitted garment. Woolen wool flannel doesn't like to hold a press, so it always looks a bit bulkier and 'wadded up'.

[Spinster]

3. Mrs. Lawson, love the pictures of Winter '64! Though I am amazed that Mrs. Shea was captured so clearly on film, as she's such a hard-working woman that I thought any attempt would only result in a blur. What is a "Pardessuss" and how does it differ from the appearance of the other coats?


Grumpy Dave Townsend has a VERY high speed camera :D

From Galla Rock Merchantile's pattern files, the 1858 pardesus is shown here
http://www.gallarock.com/GRSP201.gif
And the pattern here
http://www.gallarock.com/ladiespatterns.html

I believe the source was Petersens, but don't quote me. The original illustration was accompanied by a funky line drawing of the pattern pieces.

Draped like a cape, but with full belled sleeves, this is a MUCH more useful garment than any cape or cloak. It can be easily belted, and the arms are warm, and free for use. It is excellent for riding for both carriage and on horse. Amazingly enough, this thing is not hard to make. It does require one to be brave, and to follow directions to the letter, and without question--in that, it is rather like turning a heel on a stocking, a process I overthought for many years until someone told me "quit thinking, just knit".

Same thing on this garment. Its made entirely inside out, fancy harlequin hood and all, and finally pulled though one armhole and finished.

Even more remarkable is who it fits. Everybody. We made the first one, figuring we'd have to alter the pattern, and we had 3 possible candidates ranging in height from 5' to 5' 8" and from 100 pounds to 350 pounds. It fit everybody, it looked good on everybody, without alterations. Much under 5 feet tall might be a problem. We've used everything from fabric frogs to hammered silver doubloons as closures. Actually attempting the wear the lovely harlequin hood makes one look like a flying fool, and some other headgear would be highly advisable.

[Spinster]

The two spellings are sometimes used interchangeably during the period. Here's how I define them:
A lady's "sack" coat is an outer garment. They are cut with a round neckline, with or without a collar; are loose-fitting, end somewhere between high and low hip,

A lady's "sacque" is a loose-fitting indoor garment worn with a skirt. It is cut with a round neckline, no (or very little) shaping at the waist, high-mid hip in length, and may have open or closed sleeves. It is usually worn with the hem of the sacque over the top of the skirt; ,

Now, that illustrates the conceptual problem we've been having with sacque and petticoat. If I make the sacque as short as the available patterns and illustrations seem to indicate, I have a garment that shows my corset the moment I raise my arms or bend--and I spend the great majority of my time either heaving wet yarn up on a line, or lifting pots.

And if I belt them, they look strange. The body type does not matter --short tall, busty or flat, all seem to have the same challenge in this type. We don't look like the demure lady in the Past Patterns illustration, we look stupid, or look like a bale with a string on it, take your pick.

So, we lengthened the sacque so it would lay better--that plaid wool one has been refashioned completely and gone to live in another time period, and are now going with a length that is several inches down the thigh--copied from an 1859 Petersons wool sacque and petticoat that also has button off sleeves

That neckline was too wide in that plaid sacque--I'd have done better to regard it as a coat, not the top of a dress, and leave the white collar off. That collar was pretty annoying--even more so since I had dip starched it in the hopes it would last from Wednesday to Sunday without changing it. Bad idea--it stood out like a frisbee until Saturday.

[Carolann Schmitt]

Mrs. L -

I can appreciate your experiences with a sacque. I've made one, and the pattern underwent extensive alterations until I was happy with it. It looked good - until I moved. After additional alterations, changes in how I was wearing it, and the use of some very creative sewing terms, I decided there were reasons why sacques were not one of the common articles of dress during the period. It's disappointing, as sacques and petticoats from earlier in the century are so flattering and practical. The style lost it's way somewhere in the intervening decades. Mine has been relegated to the alterations bin (I love the fabric) where it will someday be re-cut into a bodice for a dress.

Despite your travails, your accommodations and adjustments are typical of what would have been done during the period: make the garment functional within the boundaries of the prevailing fashion. It's a period solution to a period and modern problem.

Regards,

[Laura K]

[QUOTE=Carolann Schmitt]Laura -

Could you post an image or link to an image of your elbow cape? I have extensive documentation on women's outerwear c.1850-1865 and I can't recall any primary source documentation for a hooded close-fitting cape that ends at the elbow. I'd love to add any information you may have to my files.


Carolann....
http://www.history.rochester.edu/godeys/ Look at the plate from March, and May 1859 for an example.

The better example is a photo of a washer women outside a hospital......I saw it in a book recenlty, but I read a lot and can't find it now. Obviously, the ones in Godeys are too ornate for a working impression. However, you can see that they are pictured as (fashionable) day wear, not evening wear.

Sorry I can't give you a more practical example.

[Laura K]

Laura, I'll have to respectfully disagree with the idea that capes are the most common option, mid-century. They show up a lot in repro living history circles, but I do find them vastly over-represented now.


I can't disagree with anything you say, actually. In a long thread like this, context gets lost. I was commenting on the practicality of a cape being appropriate for evening wear, vs a coat of some kind being much warmer.

I can appreciate that an elbow length cape, or cloak, or mantle (or whatever it was called) is over-represented. However, practicality was all the thread was discussing at that point. Personally, I find mine quite practical when worn with layers in a camp setting.

I also agree with the immense practicality of a 100% wool apron - even in summer. Cotton is said to be more fire-retardant when rinsed with alum, but a light weight wool still seems much safer to me, and not much heavier.

Heaven protect those misguided souls who wear polyester blends around a camp fire.

[Carolann Schmitt]

http://www.history.rochester.edu/godeys/[/url] Look at the plate from March, and May 1859 for an example.


Laura -

That link takes me to 1850s issues of Godey's. Do you have a link for 1859? Or can you tell me how to find it? I have a subscription to Accessible Archives; is there a title or description of the image I can use for a search?

[Laura K]

sent you an email

[Trish Hasenmueller]

Please share with the rest of us.

Trish Hasenmueller

[hanktrent]

[quote=Carolann Schmitt]Laura -

Could you post an image or link to an image of your elbow cape? I have extensive documentation on women's outerwear c.1850-1865 and I can't recall any primary source documentation for a hooded close-fitting cape that ends at the elbow. I'd love to add any information you may have to my files.


Carolann....
http://www.history.rochester.edu/godeys/ Look at the plate from March, and May 1859 for an example.

Also, I was curious, did you mean the March 1850 plate at that site, or a March 1859 plate? The March 1850 plate of the wedding dresses does, coincidentally, show a woman in an elbow length cape-like thingy. I don't know what you call it, but it's an 1840s look that I've seen before, along with the long pointed waist and tight sleeves. When I've seen it, it wasn't necessarily outerwear for warmth, wasn't hooded, and I'm not sure if it even continued into and through the basque bodice era. If that was the plate that was meant, and not 1859, any comments on that, Carolann?

In a quick search, closest example I can find of a shortish functionally-hooded cape-like thingy in the 1860s is December 1865 Godey's "opera cloak of violet poplin edged with cord simulating scallops." Though the hood looks like it might actually work and not just be decorative, it's got the usual mantle shape, cut high up for the arms but below the waist front and back.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[ElizabethClark]

Hank, that's a pelerine--holding over from 30's pelerines, into the 40s and 50s, and even into the 60s on occasion, but you see a lot of them in the 40s. They're not outerwear, they're a dress accessory.

(They're also, I believe, the anscestor of the Dreaded Bermuda Triangle Thingy that some merchants *still* sell in odd cotton prints with colored polyester "lace". Shiver.)

[Carolann Schmitt]

I still haven't been able to find my way around the site Laura linked. I did spend some time searching Accessible Archives.

Here is a link to the fashion plate for March 1859 (All links used with permission of Accessible Archives)
http://www.accessible.com/accessible/docButton?AAWhat=image&AAWhere=/accessible/temp.image/Carolann_Schmitt.1934.jpg&AABeanName=toc1&AANextPage=/imagePage.jsp

The description reads:
Fig. 3.— (snip) A mantle of heavy black silk, shawl shaped, with rounded point; trimming black lace, heading a row of fringe the same depth.

Here is the link for the fashion plate for May 1859:
http://www.accessible.com/accessible/docButton?AAWhat=image&AAWhere=/accessible/temp.image/Carolann_Schmitt.2029.jpg&AABeanName=toc1&AANextPage=/imagePage.jsp

The description:
Fig . 4.— (snip) Scarf mantle of black silk.

Laura also asked me to look at the fashion plate for November 1859:
http://www.accessible.com/accessible/docButton?AAWhat=image&AAWhere=/accessible/temp.image/Carolann_Schmitt.2333.jpg&AABeanName=toc1&AANextPage=/imagePage.jsp

Description:
Fig. 1.— Burnous cloak, of black velvet, lined with saffron-colored satin, richly quilted en eschelle.
Fig. 2. — Bishop's cloak; a basquine of gray cloth, trimmed by narrow velvet and grelots, belted to the figure at the waist. A full, square cape forms a bishop's sleeve, whence the name.
Fig. 3.— Extremely rich velvet mantle, of a burnous shape in the skirt, set into a round body, or yoke, in large flat plaits. The centre of each plait has a medallion ornament in guipure lace; there is an epaulette or cap beneath the yoke, which is trimmed with handsome guipure lace, as is the whole garment.
Fig. 4.— Combination cloak of gray and brown cloth, an entirely new style.

Laura - Please let me know if these are not the appropriate illustrations. The following comments will be simply informational if that is the case. :-)

The garments in the color plates are mantles or cloaks. Most commonly, mantles have few if any closures at all. If they do have closures, it is usually two or three beginning at the neckline and ending between the bosom and the waist. Mantles are loose-fitting and stay in place via the shaping at the shoulder. They are not particularly warm since they are open at the sides.

Cloaks are usually loose or semi-fitted; fitted versions are less common. They do have front closures ending in the area of the waistline. They are longer and frequently have loose sleeves.

I also looked at the March 1850 plate that Hank mentioned. The short capelet in this engraving is an accessory to the dress. They were frequently made from very fine sheer fabric; self-fabric versions can also be found. This is a style from the 1840s; did not have an outer wear version; and did not extend into the Civil War era.

I personally wouldn't consider the shape of any of these garments suitable for practical tasks. As always, YMMV. :-)

Laura mentioned:
"...an elbow length cape with a matching removable hood and quilted lining is very practical for working around camp ."
and
"...An close fitting (hooded) elbow cape is normally fastened all the way down the front. It's made for working and as you ladies poit out, it does assume the lady is wearing suitable wool petticoats as layering. The elbow cape is only intended to keep the wind off the back, neck and shoulders. An elbow cape allows the upper arm to stay covered as she bends and reaches and works with her hands without having to touch her clothing."

My visual image of Laura's description may be vastly different from what she is describing but, in the short time I've had to go through my files, I still haven't found a reference for a close-fitting elbow cape that buttons down the front.

Information on what people wore while doing practical tasks is available. Diaries, journals and letters often include this information. There are wonderfully detailed images in photo archives that show what was being worn as a task or activity occurred. Genre paintings are another source showing the same information. Advertisements in local newspapers describe what was being sold to the area citizens and how much it cost. Store ledgers and journals list sales by name, item and cost. Cross-referencing the names with census information provides information on the citizen's role(s) and socio-economic status in the community. In a presentation she did at the Conference a few years ago, Karin Bohlelke cross-referenced ledgers from local merchants with census information and photographs to show who was wearing what in a small town in southcentral Pennsylvania c.1860-1865. And extant garments do exist. Comparing information from each of these sources and others provides good insight to what was being worn.

Getting back to the original question:
- The first step is to determine why a woman would be in a military camp setting.
- Once her function is established, her wardrobe would be that of any woman doing a similar task in a non-military setting.
- If staying warm is her primary goal, multiple layers will keep her warm, e.g. wool or quilted petticoat, wool stockings, wool dress, sontag or shawl wrapped around her body, another shawl or outergarment layered over top, warm hood, scarf, wool gloves.
- If she's doing functional tasks like cooking or laundry, a sack coat or shorter paletot with coat sleeves will keep her warm without dragging the garment through the pot or having it fall on the ground.

Interesting discussion, folks.

[Laura K]

Very interesting discussion. Perhaps I've been misinterpreting what I've seen. It may be that I've been seeing various garments and thought they were related, when they weren't. hmmmm

[Carolann Schmitt]

Laura kindly sent me a copy of an image from the Rochester site. Unfortunately, I do not know how to link it here and I cannot see a date. (I wonder if plate is dated correctly on the site?)

The description is not included. The color plate shows a mauve dress with coat sleeves trimmed with a horizontal line of heavy fringe midway up the skirt. The dress is worn with a short capelet made from and trimmed with same materials. The capelet is similar in the style shown in the March 1850s plate - close fitting with a front button opening. The other dresses in the image appear to be very late 1850s-early 1860s. Addditional research would help determine if this is capelet is a 'retro' style that was fashionable during these years.

It's important to remember that accessories do not automatically translate to other fabrics and other uses. Pelerines and fichus were very popular through the early 1860s; capelets were less popular after the mid-1850s. Each of these items were indoor accessories made from very fine sheer fabrics or the same fabric as the dress. They were not outer garments.

I've not personally found the shape shown in the illustrations Laura sent and Hank mentioned used for an outer garment c.1855-1865. Without primary source documentation, I'm hesitant to recommend its use for that purpose.

Studying period fashion is an on-going research project and I find new information each day. I'd love to know of any other documentation on this style and am more than happy to revise my opinion if warranted. :-)

Regards,