NCO Swords

[50th VA Corporal]

I have seen a few postings in the past about NCO swords and their general lack of actually being used. I have also seen posts stating the NCO's (Sgt's in particular) should not wear them to re-enactments.

I guess I would be poised to ask a few questions:

1) Has anyone observed period photos of sergeants on either side wearing them? If so, under what circumstances?

2) Under what circumstances did the NCO's actually wear them; parade, etc.?

3) Lastly, why is the hobby in general against NCO's wearing them?

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[KeystoneGuard]

Jas.
From the research I have done they were typically worn by the orderly sergeant on up to sgt. maj. however I have not found to many photos of them actually wearing them probably due to the fact they are major trip hazards. I own one, but rarely use it even given the right circumstances.

[hendrickms24]

http://www.geocities.com/generalgreene1770/RIMOLLUS/LCarrRhodes2d.jpg

This Wet print of Levi Carr and Sgt. Maj. Elisha Hunt Rhodes show Elisha wearing his NCO sword.

[DamYankee25]

Jas.
From the research I have done they were typically worn by the orderly sergeant on up to sgt. maj. however I have not found to many photos of them actually wearing them probably due to the fact they are major trip hazards. I own one, but rarely use it even given the right circumstances.

I agree, I've done some research into the use of NCO swords over muskets and it is a tough thing to find a lot of documentation on. I wish I had some of that research here at work. But there are pictures of Orderly Sgt's with them and without them. It is my feeling that if I was going to be in a position as the Orderly Sgt and I would be going into combat with my men, I'd take a musket with me, I know I'd like having the option of shooting back. That NCO sword is a trip hazard and is doesn't seem like it would be an effective combat weapon in close quarters.

I've attached a picture of the 4th USCT and their orderly sgt. is brandishing his NCO sword. I wish I had more of my pictures at hand.1820

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Here are a few NCO swords being worn by Sergeants in the 25th NY, a regiment that, by all accounts, scoffed at regulations at every level of command, from top to bottom.

While not the best weapon, keep in mind that a Sergeant can, at any time, have to step up to platoon/company command, and other than the fact that you'd be shouting orders and standing in a new spot, a makeshift badge of rank is there at your hip if you need it to identify yourself to your men as their new boss.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

A messy dish this...

The Revised 1861 regulations avoid the topic. 1512 specifies a plain, black leather sword belt for all non-commissioned officers under SWORD-BELT but then ignores any sword under SWORD AND SCABBARD.
The NCO sword is listed in the 1861 US Ordnance Manual as well as the CS clone.

And then there are those pesky vounteers, as well as parade versus campaign, and who is strick and who is lax.

As a result, once can find the more rare images of a variety of NCO's wearing the M1840 sword from corporals on up through sergeants (versus way more field images of those NCO's without).

CHS

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I found that like many things with regulations governing them, practice and regulation may indeed conflict. You'll find plenty of pics of them being worn, and plenty without, so it would all depend upon the impression. I would also agree that it seems that it was orderly sergeants and sergeants major predominately. I remember a great story about swords from the 19th Indiana in a book I read (the name escapes me until I get home to look at the library), but as the sergeant major had just been promoted prior to the battle they were engaged in at the time, he had not received his badge of office (the sword). A group of confederates were captured by elements of the regiment, and the sword and belt of a full colonel were taken from him and handed over to the sergeant major, much to the chagrin of the officer from whom they were liberated. I've seen photos in "Military Images" magazine showing sergeants major carrying field and staff swords, private purchase swords, and several wearing junior officer frocks and other private purchase garments as well.

[50th VA Corporal]

My interest in this was generated when I was promoted and was given an NCO sword. I had wondered when or if I would ever be given the opportunity to even wear it or would it become a closet trinket.

I did not intend to wear it into battle - especially since I had spent all last year's winter allowance purchasing a new musket and then having it defarbed (!) - but wondered when I delivered my company report to the Lt. Colonel prior to battalion parade.

Whilst I do see reproduction NCO baldrics and scabbards on the market my Confederate NCO sword has the metal scabbard requiring a sword belt. I have seen at least one maker producing a "Confederate Sword Belt" that is set up for this type of scabbard.

One of the things I have not seen on the battlefield are officers utilizing the "j" hook on their sword belt to secure the scabbard when on the march. I did read in the regulations that this was a requirement. I guess just another rule not to be followed......?

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal (not actually a corporal anymore but I like the sound of it)

[pvt_jb]

That pic of Elisha Rodes as Sgt Major is in the book All for the Union.

He is wearing a foot officers sword and not an NCO sword.

This supports what Ross was talking about with Sgt Majors wearing a mix of officer/private items.

[baker36]

I agree, I've done some research into the use of NCO swords over muskets and it is a tough thing to find a lot of documentation on. I wish I had some of that research here at work. But there are pictures of Orderly Sgt's with them and without them. It is my feeling that if I was going to be in a position as the Orderly Sgt and I would be going into combat with my men, I'd take a musket with me, I know I'd like having the option of shooting back. That NCO sword is a trip hazard and is doesn't seem like it would be an effective combat weapon in close quarters.

I've attached a picture of the 4th USCT and their orderly sgt. is brandishing his NCO sword. I wish I had more of my pictures at hand.1820

I was reading through my history book looking at all the civil stuff and that same picture of those black soldiers is in there

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

As some added background, the years prior to the CW made concessions for sergeants to wear both the sword and carry a musket, as the baldric issued had double slots for the sword scabbard and bayonet scabbard. I've seen a few images of their use during the CW as well. Reenacting practices are usually not the measuring stick of what is authentic or correct, but from my experiences both as an orderly sergeant and as a sergeant major, in the field I carried a musket with the company and the sword as the battalion sergeant major, but I carried the sword at parade for both. This was based loosely on images I'd seen but also from practicality

[Rob Weaver]

Also as an issue of practicality: Reenactors tend to listen to commanders wearing swords. I wear mine if I'm in charge of an element of any size, am Orderly Sgt for a company or am attending an "Officer's Call" type meeting. Oh, if you're going to lug that thing around, you may as well learn to use it: get a copy of the fencing manual and put yourself through the paces. That made a great winter project a few years ago, and really improved how I handle the sword in general. Be advised: It is a trip hazard. I'm so short that even with the baldric shortened, mine is only about an inch off the ground. I get hung up in all kinds of low-lying brush.

A long while ago, I thought I read something that suggested that the CS metal scabbard arraignment is a reenactorism. I'm not up on CS equippage, so does anyone more knowledgable wish to chime in?

[reddiamond]

All,
The amount of broken sword and scabbard parts that the relic collectors dig up is enough to convince me of their use. These swords and their parts have been found on almost every battlefield of the war, just like some other seemingly useless things as shoulder scales.
My original Ames manufactured sword was made in 1864. The original leather scabbard was replaced during the war by a metal one. The drags had a tendency to break off just where the leather meets the brass. If there were too many discarded or just not used, then why did the government continue to manufacture them? There were boards in the inspector general's and QM departments that reviewed such things to reduce waste. That would be a research project to do! They were carried on the equipment lists until 1904, I think. I've seen photos of NCOs wearing them in Cuba, circa 1898.
I wear mine when portraying a sergeant. It is correct, regulation, and underrepresented.

Scot Buffington

[50th VA Corporal]

I really don't have the intention to wear it into battle but sure would like to use it in instances such as officer's call and roll call. It was a nice presentation gift when I was promoted to 1st Sgt. and I sure would like to use it on ocassion. So...., I better find me a copy of the Manual of the Sword. I know Civil War Historian did an article on it, too bad I passed my copies on.

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

and too lazy to change my ID to 50th VA 1st Sgt.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Yes, the scabbard on the M1840 NCO sword was iron japanned black with a brass throat and tip. The leather version appears to be more commonly used, and I forget when it was dropped completely but I think it was near the Span-Am War.

CHS

[50th VA Corporal]

Has anyone seen any documentation of any Confederate NCO's not using a baldric and using a sword belt instead? Somewhere I saw one photo, just don't remember where.

There I go again with the can't remember where again... ...gonna hide my own Easter eggs this year...

Jas. T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[pvt_jb]

Looking through a friends copy of the John Henry Kurtz auction catalog there is a foot officers sword with an inscription on it. The insciption reads that it was presented to a Sgt Major.