How to buy gear & other observations...

[Guy Gane III]

Gentlemen (& Ladies),

I first want to warn that these are my personal opinions/observations and not to pick on anyone.

For the past 6 or 7 years, I have come across a phenomenon in re-enacting. There is always someone who complains that the authentic stuff is too expensive, out of price ranges, etc.

I know what it feels like to want that special something and not be able to afford it right off the bat. With the current economic crap that has been happening[deletion - THP; political], I don't have money to spend like I used to. Will that stop me? No. Why? Because I'll save up to buy what I want.

AHHHH ha!!! :idea:

Why doesn't anybody adhere to that idea, anymore? Saving up for something that you really want. I mean, we do just that to buy engagement rings, Christmas gifts, cars, modern clothes... You name it.

Now, you may get mad and say to yourself that you don't have the money to go all out and buy everything that is required to have an authentic impression. I'm definitely not saying you should. I didn't. ****, if I had that kind of money, I would outfit an entire company, just because I could! :mrgreen:

Take your time. Make yourself a list of things you want. Buy something if not once a month, then once every few months. Worst case, once a year. But if you are serious about this hobby; if you do Living Histories; if you talk to anyone and show them your stuff... get informed. You may be what some would call a farb.

Before you get Pop's shotgun and light torches, let me explain...

If you say to yourself, "I DO take this hobby seriously" or something of the sort, then you are on the right path. ****, you are reading this. You are part of a forum, which is basically a way for all of us to share our info. Some will consider this a way to get more involved or just use this as a tool for more information. (Some are just mean ol' bastards who want to put other people down, but "Don't bother bout him, he's just ignorant." ;) )

Each person in this hobby is part of the whole. We all agree that we do this for the public/ourselves/honor an ancestor or what have you. Our knowledge has grown, authentic stuff is more readily available than it was in the 80's or 90's, and the number of reenactors is near an all-time low. The odds are that within another 5-10 years, we should have about 75% of reenactors in better stuff.

Those of you who will argue and say that "my stuff is good enough - it's blue or it's gray" need a serious wake up call. Do you take pride in what you do in everyday life? If so, then you should be taking pride in your impression.

It comes down to this: If you know your stuff is wrong and you keep denying it, then you should maybe reconsider being in this hobby. You can make stuff to cut costs. I mean, we are surrounded by great patterns and great originals just waiting to be copied. Why keep denying yourself the satisfaction of knowing you actually LOOK like a soldier/civilian?

It is your DUTY, it is your RESPONSIBILITY and it's downright disrespectful to the original cast that you may be wearing crap. You owe it to yourself and to their memory.

Save your pennies, save your dollars, buy authentic... everything else is a lie. So, don't be a liar. ;)

It's not about being hardkewl - it's about being correct.

(Sorry for the ramble...)

Sincerely,

[Dave Myrick]

Three Cheers!

Dave

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Well said Guy! I'll even throw something else in for consideration - if prices are too high for you, learn how to make it. I say this with all seriousness and not with sarcasm. A few years ago I wanted to trade in that heavy canvas, metal grommeted POS shelter half I'd been carrying once it was shown to be incorrect. I saw a handfull of quality vendors making a correct half, but I couldn't believe how much more they were. I said to myself, "I can make that", and TRIED to do just that. Of course, the first one wasn't like theirs, but it was better than what I had. With a few tweaks and some constructive criticism, the next ones were better, and the ones after those were better still. The point, the prices are higher for a reason: cost of material and labor for quality work. You can't cut corners on material, but you can save the labor fee. There is a great feeling of accomplishment when you learn to make things, and I think you'll be quite surprised at what you can do with a little effort. If you're still all thumbs when it comes to creating objects, then refer back to Guy's missive and save the pennies when they come in.

[FloridaConfederate]

I am buying a pony with my redistributed wealth.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Busterbuttonboy]

Here here! Guy, its people like you who keep me from going off the deep end at event anymore.
Drew Gruber

[DamYankee25]

here here. Someone once put it to me very simply when it came to uniform purchases, research etc. Take an original photograph of a group of soldiers (insert your own impression here) and ask yourself "in my current uniform/gear/etc would I fit in?"

[FloridaConfederate]

How correct is correct ?

What about sizes ?

I got a meteric buttload of good kit. But size keeps me out of the correct category and associated events.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Keeps it in the perspective of knowing his lane.

[Guy Gane III]

Big or small, it makes no difference. If you are a bigger fella, I would base my kit on private purchase stuff (Commercial Sack for Union or Civilian outfit for CS) As we all know, there were only a few "standard" sizes that either government issued. So what would a bigger fella do? He would make do with what he had until he could purchase his own stuff from merchants instead of drawing them from the QM. At least that's my logic on the subject. Does that help? 8)

[GrumpyDave]

New too expensive? There's good used stuff for sale out there in quantities I've never seen before.:mrgreen:

[FloridaConfederate]

As we all know, there were only a few "standard" sizes that either government issued.

The 4 Federal sizes topped out at a size 42 (which matches the issue shirt size). Size 4 would have been for those "big guys". Someone posted and I cant find it on this computer that out of a company sized 100 jacket issue.... 4 were of size 4. The majority being in size 3 range of 38 to 40.

I think it my have been QM who posted those figures ?

Are there extant private purchase Federal blouse which exceed 44 inch chest ?

I do not know of any.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Justin Runyon]

JT Martin poduced fatigue blouses in sizes up to 7 or 8 (I cant recall which)

Further, of all the units that I have served with, GHTI; WIG; CR; Stonewalls; the list goes on and on, I have never seen a "big guy" with the proper kit and proper attitude turned away from a quality event. Sure, the ideal is that we all fit into 38-42 coats but that's not going to happen and we are all aware of that. Not improving your kit and going to better events just because you where a size 50 coat is simply an excuse that dosn't hold water.

[FloridaConfederate]

"According to data compiled by Earl J. Coates and Fred Caede, however, New York contractor John T. Martin had small late-war contracts for larger blouses in sizes 5,6 and 7. The total number of these sizes called for in the contracts amounted to a total of only around one thousand blouses, so they could not have made much of an impact on the soldiers, most of whom were forced to make do with the four standard sizes."

"Notes on the Federal Issue Sack Coat" MILITARY COLLECTOR & HISTORIAN Journal of the Company of Military Historians. Vol. XLVII, No 2 Summer 1995.

Not the most PEC of occurrences thus why I was looking for extant blouses.

As to the events part, you are certainly correct nor is it my assertion that you will be turned away. I respect the Top Tier for what it is. Others mileage may very. I have worked hard to get down to a size 4/4 and have done a few events that are within my lane. The point of this thread was correctness, not how open, accommodating and supportive the EBUFU community is. They have been very open, accommodating and supportive to me, including senior leadership of some of the orgs you mention.

I am a firm believer in knowing and staying my lane.


CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Tiger_rifles]

"It comes down to this: If you know your stuff is wrong and you keep denying it, then you should maybe reconsider being in this hobby. You can make stuff to cut costs. I mean, we are surrounded by great patterns and great originals just waiting to be copied. Why keep denying yourself the satisfaction of knowing you actually LOOK like a soldier/civilian? " Quote;

Its a good Question......"How correct is "Correct'?????

Mr. Gane, I agree with you in theory, but to what standard do you feel we all can be held?
For example: For an event this past year, I wished to portray a Unit that had some very detailed equipment requirments. First, they were issued 2 banders, but as NO event, (but some living history/display), will allow a 2 bander, I had to use a 3 bander. Next, they had been issued British leathers & packs, and as one of these sets are in a museum, we know they were of the "Ross" contract not the "Isaac & Cambell" contract. The one person that can make this style is asking almost $1,000 a set! He is the only person I could find who had a pattern also and would not release it. So now my 2nd change from "Correct" is to use a "I & C" pattern and alter it. Now I find that this leather gear is blackened, waxed, buff, cut at a 30% angle, useing 3 strand linen thread,( not 5 strand linen-the only linen thread in the USA at this grade!), with 10 stitches per inch, etc..... should I go on????? Not to mention how the cap pouch was taken from the front of the cartridge box and then re-stitched w/a loop to fit on the belt, and so on and so on and so on.......
And this is just two items!, we have not talked about the snake belt, ball pouch, pack , scabbard, formulas for dye, blackening, waxing, etc........

A guy in our Unit wanted us to portray his GGGGDads unit at an event 2 years ago, by records and a letter from is GGGGfather, they were issued new uniforms just before the battle,...... with sky blue trousers...... but the event regs stated:"NO REBS IN SKY BLUE PANTS!!!"

if I wish to portray my GGGGfathers Unit thru the War, they had Mdl 1855 to start, then Converted Virginia Manfactory muskets, then some form of 69 cal, (1816/22 or 1842), then Enfields. properly made and refarbed you are talking about $3000 to $4000 just for muskets, not to mention Pre-War Militia to 3rd pattern Richmond Depot Uniforms and gear. Now with jean clothe going $25-$40 a yard, patterns at $25, correct sewing machines and the time of hand stitching
Is it really SO MUCH CHEAPER?????

Now, if you only wish to portray Union, I can see were alot of this gear will work for a good portion of the War. But many of us portray both US and CS ref. to the battle/event we are attending.
After spending so much time, trouble, research, and $$$$ on my kit I really hate to look down at the guy next to me and see rubber soled work boots, machine stitched button holes, and "Made in Italy" on a musket....... But atleast the guy went to all the trouble to come out! I wish more troops that call themselves "Hard Core" would try and come out to "Mainstream" events.
Because it was that example almost 5 years ago, that made me start to better MY kit and try to be as "Correct" as I Could.

I would like to see future events get bigger and more correct, but I really feel it will go the other way. I think interest in the American Civil War is fadeing and we all will have to work together to keep good events going. This means not haveing TWO G-burgs a week apart, but one for all to play. Finding a way for Campaigners to fit into a Mainstream event.
We did this in the past......why is it so impossible NOW?

[FloridaConfederate]

as posted by Tiger Rifles

A guy in our Unit wanted us to portray his GGGGDads unit at an event 2 years ago, by records and a letter from is GGGGfather, they were issued new uniforms just before the battle,...... with sky blue trousers...... but the event regs stated:"NO REBS IN SKY BLUE PANTS!!!"

This is a topic of ongoing research for many.....so your help is appreciated:

What unit and battle ?

Does it reference them as Federal ?

Do you have transcript of the letter ?


CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Thad Gallagher]

I would have to do some digging through my Father's records, but my GGGGrandfather was 6'2" at enlistment. Definately a beast for the time. The image we have of him, he is wearing a private purchase sack coat. The photo was probably taken around the time of Corinth as well, he went the VRC shortly after. Sure he was an exception, and not the rule for size, it just shows that not everyone could fit the standard sizes.

Later on in the war, the government did add larger sizes to the inventory, as well as there was a special clothing resource for odd (considering the time) sizes. So the government even realized that not everyone fit the mold.

I think an appropriate attitude and willingness to do the right thing can get one further than anything else in the hobby. I agree with Guy, and that is to simply save up for the items you want. I can not afford everything I want, so I stick to the essentials that I need, and get the best bang for the buck with them. I do buy the big name stuff, but I get items that I can use for mulitple scenarios. I have also learned to sew, and this has helped me go further with that buck than anything else.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In terms of blouses or jackets (a similar concept was employed for hats, shoes, trousers, etc., etc), the Federal depot system set the ratios of the four sizes with each contract and delivered to the Government in batches of 50, 75, 100, or 150 that were then compressed and baled.

Ideally, NUG, they were something like this:

20 Size 1
40 Size 2
30 Size 3
10 Size 4

Sizes 5-8 were available on requisition. The Schuylkill Arsenal also operated a Special Clothing Bureau where the really small, large, or odd sizes could be requisitioned and delivered (in theory).



While I agree with the previous comments, IMHO, they do "presuppose" that
there are universally "agreed upon" "standards" for clothing and gear across all of the Civil War Community.
IMHO, across the Alphabet Letters and shades and degrees before, between, and after- lads match their clothing and gear to their Mental Pictures of:

1. what they see themselves doing, and where they see themselves fitting in
2. what actual "standards" are set for them by event, unit, or themselves
3. what works for them and their pards- meaning on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection, "how close is good enough" before an article of clothing ot item gear either passes or fails what it contributes to the image and the activities it is used to create or recreate.

For example, just to pick an obvious one...

Reproduction arms. One standard is "out of the box is okay." Another standard is "(to some degree or extent) de-farbed." Yet, while exacting custom-built longarms are availalbe for 2-4 times the cost of an out-of-the-box Italian repro- most of even the H and A segment of the CW Community uses just "de-farbed' Italain imports.

IMHO still, in brief and to over-generlaize...

I believe this discussion is more a "progressive" outlook, or any Alphabet Letter preceded by an additional "P" for "progressive thinking and practices."

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[Tiger_rifles]

This is a topic of ongoing research for many.....so your help is appreciated:

What unit and battle ?

Does it reference them as Federal ?

Do you have transcript of the letter ?


CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

If I remember correctly it was the 15th Mississippi, but not 100% sure on the "15th" part. They were issued Colubus depot jackets and sky blue trousers,(the trouser material and the cuff/colar material were described as being the same), just before the Battle of Corinth. No mention of "Kersey", jusy "sky blue". Hope this helps, will try and reach my mess mate for details.

[Guy Gane III]

What I am talking about is something that I cringe at even saying... a "basic" kit. I mean, no more gray "uniforms" with the pointed cuffs, color coded for the branch you are in. It's crap wool, not even a pattern I would recognize, etc. Refer to pic below to get a better idea if you don't know what I am talking about. If you have anything like this, please pick up a book and look at photos. These jackets are evil. :twisted: When you wake up... go to the next event and burn it. Seriously... the "hardcores" will come out of the woods and dance around it like wild Injuns. (No disrespect to the Native Americans ;) )

Now, there is also no excuse to be wearing rubber soled work boots at an event. That is, unless it is your first event and I know that none of you on this board are first timers.

I have a CS & US impression that is more geared toward the Eastern Theater, because this is where I do most of my reenacting. I won't be 100% dead-on every event, because of the variation of dress for every unit, on every campaign. But, I try my best and buy what I can, when I can.

I just ask that people stop going to events (and especially walking around Gettysburg) dressed in every possible, wrong outfit that the mind's eye can imagine.

I get that you are in the artillery, you just don't need to look like you're British. :mrgreen:

I swear if I see one more "Artillery Claus" or over-taped "vivandiere", I'm gonna blow chunks on your outfit so that you HAVE to take it off. These are the people that make us look like fools to the public. They are really a disgrace to the memory of those who lived or died in the War. You may get mad, but I've been doing this long enough to know that you are not "cute" or "funny". You are a mockery and should rightfully be made fun of.

You may now commence throwing rocks...

[MD_Independent26]

I think interest in the American Civil War is fadeing and we all will have to work together to keep good events going. This means not haveing TWO G-burgs a week apart, but one for all to play. Finding a way for Campaigners to fit into a Mainstream event.
We did this in the past......why is it so impossible NOW?

Comrade,
You say we need to work together to keep good events going. And then you wish to fit 'campaigners' into a 'mainstream' event. What arbitrary force judges said 'mainstream' event to be a 'good' event? Mr. Anders' Gettysburg was, for me, an example of working 'campaigners' into a 'mainstream' event. Do you want us to lower the bar further?

I have a counter-proposal to make. How about finding a way to fit 'mainstreamers' into a 'campaigners' event? I bet that there is enough loaner gear belonging to 'campaigners' to equip quite a few 'mainstreamers' for the effort. Heck, I have six almost complete sets of Federal and CS/Civilian clothing myself, five of which are normally left behind when I attend a 'campaigner' event. Despite numerous invitations to people who expressed an interest in attending a 'campaigner' event, the kits continue to sit in a dark closet weekend after weekend.

Mr. Gane, that was an excellent post. Improvement in one's impression should always be a priority to the serious living historian.

Bill Birney

[FloridaConfederate]

I wear a jacket like this sometimes doing Eastern CS infantry.

Is this not good ?

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii312/floridaconfederate/tait.jpg

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[FloridaConfederate]

Birney looks like he stepped out of time. He is one of the ones that could be inserted back in time, no problem.

He is the physiotype that can make the EBUFU events a snapshot in time, which makes it worth it for me to stay on the sidelines of the top teir until I can get squared away.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[MD_Independent26]

Shut up, Monsieur Rideout... Everyone knows I'm too tall. 6'2" is a bit much. If you feel that bad, which you shouldn't, go to Bummers and be one of Joe Brown's Pets. Heck, your boy and you would both fit perfectly in that role... And we, the followers of Uncle Billy, will walk all over you all...

Bill Birney

[FloridaConfederate]

No so fast Marylander, at 6'2" youns are indeed a red bar on the chart and as lean as you are very representative IMHO and I mean the compliment on your impression, really you would be a go to in any accurate casting.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/CWheightchart.gif

At my height and weight thar aint no red bar.

Not a flicker of bad feelings here working on it..holidays were a setback.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[MD_Independent26]

I won't fight with statistics; however, I will say that your impression is pretty good in and of itself. You do fir-per better than most of the boys I served with at a recent EBUFU event in Virginia, and your kit is superb. But, I'm not going to get into an internet 'back patting' match with you. Get yourself to another good event. The couple of extra pounds will come off on a steady diet of hardtack and salt pork while doing a little bit of hiking. Learn some French and come along with me and the rest of the European company at IPW.

Bill Birney

[westcoastcampaigner]

I wear a jacket like this sometimes doing Eastern CS infantry.

Is this not good ?

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii312/floridaconfederate/tait.jpg

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida


The jacket pictured is an artillery Tait jacket made by Charlie Childs so if this is the exact jacket that you are wearing then yes it is good, scratch that...it's the best money can buy and it would be okay to wear even for eastern CS infantry as research suggests that Tait jackets with both red and blue trim were issued arbitrarily amongst CS troops regardless of their branch of service. However, if the jacket you wear is a basic sutler row gray jacket with a red collar and cuffs similar to the pictures Mr. Gane posted, then I would respectfully say no, the jacket you are wearing is not correct. Not trying to start a war here, just being honest with you and attempting to answer your question. Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles

[GBOB]

Well said Guy! I'll even throw something else in for consideration - if prices are too high for you, learn how to make it.

Great Thread!

And I would like to second Mr. Lamoreaux's sentiment about self construction. Wanting an authentic handsewn SA lined sack but not being able to afford the $400-$500 that goes with it, I took advantage of a kit from Wambaugh, White & Co. for what a good sutler row sack would cost. I had never sewn a stitch in my life but with a little guidance (and a fair amount of extra thread) I now possess a coat that looks great.

I was so inspired that I got a shirt kit and did that as well. Can't wait to do the trowsers. I did have to save up for some nice boots as there is NO way I am trying that.

It's not all about the gear, it's about the attitude to improve.

[FloridaConfederate]

The jacket pictured is an artillery Tait jacket made by Charlie Childs

Artillery ?

The two known existing red trimmed Taits, one of them Pendleton was in the 2nd Virginia Infantry and the other (in a pvt collection) has provenance to a ANV infantry soldier and lastly Jensen has identified the photo of the CS soldier dead at Petersburg has the red Tait with infantry accoutrements on.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[bbcwreenactor]

Wow guy. those jackets are just wow. you got the infantry. you got the cavalry, and im guessing that orange is dragoons? but what is with the brown? is that the S*#% brigade? dang.. But HERE HERE!

[Tiger_rifles]

Comrade,
I have a counter-proposal to make. How about finding a way to fit 'mainstreamers' into a 'campaigners' event? I bet that there is enough loaner gear belonging to 'campaigners' to equip quite a few 'mainstreamers' for the effort. Heck, I have six almost complete sets of Federal and CS/Civilian clothing myself, five of which are normally left behind when I attend a 'campaigner' event. Despite numerous invitations to people who expressed an interest in attending a 'campaigner' event, the kits continue to sit in a dark closet weekend after weekend.

Bill Birney

NOW SIR, you have gotten to the "Meat and Taters" of what I am talking about!
If all that bravely say they enjoy to "Campaign" could join together, and then ask to be included in the planning for the "next big event", and say: We can bring the numbers to your event if you will plan to include us ALL!"

Ex: Battle of Second Manassas,(or Groveton for you "Die Hard" Rebs!).
Mainstreamers(MS), could be Jackson and Popes main body and fight out the battle at Brawner's farm, then move back to the Unfinished RR for the main battle of the 29th. Campaigners(CP) could go on a forced march,(just like Longstreets corp.) and fight out the battle at Thoroughfare Gap.
Next day, CP'ers are on the road again, MS'ers still fighting it out at the RR,( and "YES" with lots of BIG ARTILLARY!!!). Reb/CP slam into Popes left flank and roll it up. Yank/CP forcemarch around and become the rearguard units that prevented a total route of Popes forces.
Now i know...."easier said then done"..... but it could work!

On a 2nd note: If you want to stop those vile CS shell jackets and those nasty blanket wool US sack coats.......
Find someone that will produce cheap jean clothe/dark blue sack coat material/etc....and then the sutlers will start to make thier jackets from that. And I am sure that if the materal standard goes up, so will the hand stitching, patterns, etc..... Stop the sutlers from making it and the "newbie" re-enactors won't buy it! Because once they buy it, they will not stop wearing it....... unless(like me) they get saved by some "Holyman",(Campaigner- God Love 'em), that can show them the light! Amen.

[westcoastcampaigner]

Artillery ?

The two known existing red trimmed Taits, one of them Pendleton was in the 2nd Virginia Infantry and the other (in a pvt collection) has provenance to a ANV infantry soldier and lastly Jensen has identified the photo of the CS soldier dead at Petersburg has the red Tait with infantry accoutrements on.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida


If you read my post, I clearly stated that Tait jackets with red trim were issued to both artillery and infantry indiscriminately. Mr. Childs is the person who has classified the jacket as an "artilley Tait jacket" on his website http://www.crchilds.com/id36_rdj.htm I personally will be the last person who takes up the argument of the validity of red collared Tait jackets being issued to infantry vs. artillery with a man of Mr. Childs expertise.

My point was that if that exact jacket is what you are wearing in the field then YES, it is correct and by all means show it off as much as possible.

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles

[Micah Trent]

Great Thread,

Money has always been a tight issue with me. The only way I was able to upgrade and better my kit was by selling my old clothing and accoutrements and reinvesting to so say.

[MD_Independent26]

Comrade,
I see your theory, but there are many 'holes' to patch up before you could take it forward to the next stage. First and foremost is the question of the land. Could you find a piece of property large enough to support an event, essentially two events, of this size? You would need the obvious 'mainstream' playground. The 'mainstream' camps would need to be out of sight of the 'campaigners' for the duration. The march routes would need to be secured.

Second, I wouldn't want to interact with some of the 'mainstream' units out there. Why would I want to do all the hard marching and hard living that is 'campaigning' when, at the end of the journey, I'd come face to face with the obvious inaccuracies to be found at a 'mainstream' event including ice angels, clouds of dismounted cavalry, neon red artillerymen, and diehards who refuse to surrender or runaway? What standards would be in place and ENFORCED to safeguard my own expectations and experience? As far as I could see, Monsieur Anders did a pretty fair job of a 'compromise' event with the tools he had at hand. The property used for AHT, unfortunately, seemed too small for what would essentially be two events in one. So, as an example of what one 'could do' with the right ground, AHT can't be used.

What would the 'campaigners' get out of the deal? Nothing but some ambiance noise from the 'mainstream' battles. What would the 'mainstreamers' get? Nothing more than they usually get from an event. Basically, you need something more to offer to each part of the hobby. For the 'mainstreamers', they can only get out of an event what they put into it. Are they willing to leave the Corps badges at home? Would they be willing to portray a unit from another state? Would they be willing to leave the wife and kids at home for this one? They would need to give something to receive something.

Same with the 'campaigners'. Would they be willing to tolerate some less-than-topnotch kits in order to see the 'numbers', hopefully numbers consisting of the higher tier of 'mainstream' reenactors? Would they be willing to tolerate the baggage that comes with many mainstream artillery units in order to hear the guns in the distance?

In reality, 'mainstreamers' wouldn't receive anything from 'campaigners' because what one gets out of this hobby is what one wants to get. Why would a 'mainstreamer' be willing to make sacrifices for something they never really wanted? Does a 'mainstreamer' want to experience small portions of a Civil War soldiers life in the field? If so, they would already be aiming towards the EBUFU events. Compromise events are not as essential as a desire to improve, something that comes from within us, not from some 'campaigner' showing us a mystical light.


Comrade, Mr. Anders is doing almost exactly what you're proposing. I intend to do another Anders event in the future. They are NOT 'campaigner' events in the pattern of Payne's Farm and Rich Mountain, but they give the 'campaigner' element the opportunity to experience higher numbers without sacrificing an excessive amount(to me anyway) in the way of historical accuracy.

Your proposal isn't new. This has been done before and will be done again, I'm certain. Unfortunately, we all must work within the limits of the space dictated by property lines and insurance issues. There is, in the end, no such thing as a common ground. 'Campaigners' and 'Mainstreamers' are heading in opposite directions, fortunately. 'Campaigners' are slowly heading towards higher and higher standards and expectations. 'Mainstreamers' are apparently happy where they are.

Comrade, I don't mean to be negative, and I will make a concession. If you can begin to put together an event patterned in your above post, I'll be more than happy to help out in any way I can. Otherwise, I'm not a philosopher. I do not particularly care for discussions about "what we should do..." or small talk in general. I would rather hear "We're going to do....". Take it a step further, and you can count me in. Otherwise, I'm just wasting time and bandwidth.

As for the 'higher quality mainstream' gear discussion, that is also being done. There are many vendors offering 'half-way clothing'. As for me, I would rather spend the extra cash and get something better. As for those who feel the same but can't afford it right away, see the original post in this thread. And, to those, I again offer what I have as loaner gear if it gets them out to an EBUFU event.

Kind Regards,
Bill Birney

[FloridaConfederate]

Originally Posted by MD_Independent26

I have a counter-proposal to make. How about finding a way to fit 'mainstreamers' into a 'campaigners' event?

I do the inverse all the time, pretty much exclusively.

"Campaigner" style at a mainstream event.

Matter of fact going to the biggest event in Florida weekend after next. Huge streamer civil war festival...I'll go bivouac the suck on the periphery and watch the battle.

Like you said I get the background noise and somewhat of a historical backdrop and I can do my thing and not bother or hurt anyone. Though at this event the golf cart / walkie talkie dudes will chase you back to the company street herd if they catch you stretching blankets out in the woods.


CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Fatbody Streamer in Campaigner Garments

[FloridaConfederate]

Mr. Childs is the person who has classified the jacket as an "artilley Tait jacket" on his website http://www.crchilds.com/id36_rdj.htm I personally will be the last person who takes up the argument of the validity of red collared Tait jackets being issued to infantry vs. artillery with a man of Mr. Childs expertise.

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles

There are none of the seven known Tait jackets with provenance to an artilleryman or unit. These jackets were distrubuted in the East and Western Theatres and The State of Alabama had special contract for Tait produced goods.

I do not know where he came up with artillery and with the red corporal stripes ?????


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[hanktrent]

What would the 'campaigners' get out of the deal? Nothing but some ambiance noise from the 'mainstream' battles. What would the 'mainstreamers' get? Nothing more than they usually get from an event.

Exactly. What he said.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Guy Gane III]

My thoughts on the various Tait jackets making it to infantry are thus..

I think that at the point of having to re-outfit the majority of the CS army, that batches of the available coats were sent to units who needed SOMETHING to uniform the troops. Some of the documented letters and the one mentioned in "Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown" (page 87; its in the Greensboro Historical Museum, Greensboro, North Carolina, belonging to Private Gauge of the 58th NC Infantry with the collar and epaulets trimmed in blue) have mentioned that they got blue trimmed Taits. It makes sense that there would be variation on the distribution of multi-trimmed jackets. I'm sure that QM Alexander Robert Lawton, was trying to make up for all of the blunders of the QM department by issuing what was readily available.

As for the chevrons being red-trimmed, I would guess that if it wasn't issued with the jacket, I would have to believe that the fella who had the coat didn't want the trim and chevrons to clash. But, that's a guess.

[westcoastcampaigner]

There are none of the seven known Tait jackets with provenance to an artilleryman or unit. These jackets were distrubuted in the East and Western Theatres and The State of Alabama had special contract for Tait produced goods.

I do not know where he came up with artillery and with the red corporal stripes ?????


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida


Take it up with Charlie. We are getting off topic.


Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles

[FloridaConfederate]

We are getting off topic.


Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles

Not really it proves my point of posting that jacket...here we have "an expert" with a quote on his site which is proven to be incorrect. We are indeed speaking of the same two, the only two, known red trimmed jackets (Jensen). Then we have two other experts perpetuate that incorretness and put themselves in place of judgement of others impressions.

The point being you never can say for certain about historical material culture and what you read on the internets, even from stuff from the "experts" can later be debunked or seen in a new light...tying it in to the thread... before you become authenticity judge and tell someone about their upping their correctness or they better just quit the hobby you might check to see your knowledge of material culture is squared away.

Have a great and judgement free New Year.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, FLorida



"I know of two artillery Tait jackets, one like this with only the red collar and another with both collar and epaulettes in red. This one is from our #K1 kersey. Of course, we also make the infantry version with or without epaulettes." Charlie Child's Website

[Guy Gane III]

Chris, was your reply aimed at me, or others?

I certainly will attest that I am not one to stand back and judge - with complete accuracy - someone's impression.

The whole thread was to enlighten people that you need to focus on the ability to procure authentic equipment and stop relying on the crap from Paki-land. Shopping at a store (and I am not going to mention names) and having someone tell you/another person, that the garbage that I know to be incorrect is really 'authentic'... is more a crime against history than it is to just sell crappy goods. The fact that these stores/merchants haven't "gotten with the times" as far as what is right to sell vs. the bottom line (aka: Money) and still pawn off their garbage, is quite a marvel. A marvel in that, we as responsible reenactors/historians, haven't done anything about getting them to stop outfitting guys with stuff that looks like it came out of "The Blue & The Gray".

Also, I don't believe this is the thread to start asking specific questions about equipment, as this was only to get some of the fine people who do this hobby to awaken their impressions and realize that its not all about beer, camping and burning powder.

[FloridaConfederate]

This is Szabo's, not the A/C.

The majority of folks don't have or care about approved vendors or museum grade kit. Think if you did the inverse of your piece and posted it on AC.

I am neurotic about the finest of details of material culture, but as a streamer I know my lane and don't down folks about their impression. Feel free to browse OldKingCrow to see my impressions..pure soup sandwich.

This isnt ugliness.... just discussion..so please do get itchy.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Guy Gane III]

Just because this is Szabo's forum, do the rules and code of why we do this, not apply?

If you already have a good impression, then what is your complaint? Or do I need not bother bout you? :mrgreen:

[FloridaConfederate]

Dont bother bout me.

Rules and code of why we do this ? Please.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[MD_Independent26]

Monsieur Rideout,
Monsieur C.H. has tempted me with a trip to Florida this February to some battle reenactment that starts with, I think, an "O"? Being layed off for the winter and, for once when that happens, not being completely broke, I may come on down. There's an example of another compromise on my part. Driving sixteen or seventeen hours and facing the ire of a girlfriend by missing Valentine's Day to attend a 'mainstream' event will be a first for me. God, I hope I don't regret it. It would be nice if some 'mainstreamers' would recipricate and attend an EBUFU event that's farther than the local town park.

Wish I knew some reenactors, 'mainstreamers' or 'campaigners', from the mid-Atlantic willing to go outside of their zip code to do an event.

Bill Birney

[FloridaConfederate]

I would love to see Schnappers come down and I will buy dinner. He is from round your parts I am sure Federal would welcome his specialty impressions.

Olustee is not an authentic event ...but I make it happen in my own little distorted world (which is superiority free). It is a perfect example of a great event for a streamer to embrace the suck as Tackett likes to say.

I am working on a securing a mount.. as my GGGGrandfather was CS cav there. But we will hook up.


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[RJSamp]

The 4 Federal sizes topped out at a size 42 (which matches the issue shirt size). Size 4 would have been for those "big guys". Someone posted and I cant find it on this computer that out of a company sized 100 jacket issue.... 4 were of size 4. The majority being in size 3 range of 38 to 40.

I think it my have been QM who posted those figures ?

Are there extant private purchase Federal blouse which exceed 44 inch chest ?

I do not know of any.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Doesn't matter if they survived 140+ years (extant)...the fact that they were ordered, manufactured, written about, and that we have pictures of over size 44 inch chest/ belly soldier's proves the point. They had sizes 5-7, made by the same people that made the issue sizes. There are many many things that have disappeared over the years....doesn't mean that they didn't exist, and in PEC quantities at the time. How the heck do you think 6' 3" + rifleman obtained trouser's? walked around with high water pants? Gotta picture of that?

I've been to all sorts of events in the last 11 years .....varying degrees of authenticity.....none have rejected my hand sewn by professional tailor uniforms combined with my 6' 3", size 48 Milwaukee goiter (how's that for a period expression!). Was at both AHT and GAC last summer.....had a blast bugling and riding in both environments....wore the same uniforms....and received high praise for my 'Smithy' at both events (that would be a circa 1998 forage cap for the uninformed).

So upgrade your kit as you can, and start attending some of the events that 'push' the envelope.....you'll be glad you did.

[flattop32355]

Would I be completely off base to ask if this can be summed up by the following statement?

If you know a piece of gear is substandard in some way, when able try to replace it with something more appropriate, accurate and period correct.

The same can apply to those aspects covered by "Man" and "Methods", as well as "Materials".

Now, to play Devil's Advocate:

Rolls Royce is supposed to be about the best automobiles available. Yet the vast majority of car dealerships sell "lesser" vehicles. Are we to insist that everyone should seek, or even be required, to buy only RR vehicles as our first, last and every vehicle purchase, or at least another comparable car?

Pick your item and run it through the same question: Television, house, phone, sack coat, canteen, etc.; it doesn't matter.

If every sutler/vendor knew he would only be able to sell the top of the line items, then that's all he/she would ever have available for purchase. Obviously, such is not the case. Most are in it to make, or supplement, their living, and cater to the customers that will most likely insure that living, with the exception of those few who have a personal stake in the desire for accuracy.

Most aren't in the business with the goal of making us authentic. That available market for that is too small to support the number of vendors out there. The only thing I can fault them on is if they overstate the accuracy of their wares.

Beyond that, I need to learn what is correct or not, and use that information as part of the reasons to buy any given item, and to help those around me to make informed decisions on purchases.

In the Ideal World, we're all wirey, strong, healthy, dedicated and accurate. Unfortunately, we live in the Real World.

That doesn't excuse those of us who know better for not looking to improve ourselves within the hobby, in all its aspects. But it does speak to why the hobby will never reach the ideal.

[Guy Gane III]

Exactly. :mrgreen:

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"But it does speak to why the hobby will never reach the ideal."

Dunno.

IMHO, many lads have worked their way up to embracing the ideal, granted it is the 1986 ideal.

;) :)

CHS

[FloridaConfederate]

But it does speak to why the hobby will never reach the ideal.


Maybe not the hobby but there are men with impressions doing living histories out there which meet extremely accurate levels of well researched, detailed representations of each part of the triad.

Then there are folks who can justify any shortcoming with fancy wordsmithing.

I never put or hold anyone to my standards, yet I will get the hate emails and pms because I think the top tier should be just that. Elite means work for it, financially, educationally and physically.

But if you choose to not go "history neurotic" that is ok too. Acceptance / concessions by the hardcore leaders of this hobby have never been an issue for me...quite the opposite they have welcomed me with opened arms. Be it force on force tall ship action, horses/cav, mounted artillery, living in a period town, garrision in historic forts and buildings I have done amazing things at events which are in my lane and where I know my personal impression would not detract from a museum quality historical venue.... yet it is always the retort in this discussion.

"You're fine no one will turn you away"

Not the point to me.

But this thread was about an "authentic" coming on Szabo's and giving a dissertation to the stream on buying more accurate kit. Which is nothing more than hardkewl flexing.


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[MD_Independent26]

"giving a dissertation to the stream..."

I like that. Trying to convince someone to improve an impression is much like trying to change the course of a creek('crick' in my native Cecilian) with nothing but words. Or converting a Protestant to Catholicism. Or... You get the point.

Common sense arguments that lack results are pointless. As soon as one person sees this thread, reads it, and says 'Wow!!! I never thought about saving money for better gear and attending better events!", I'll take this back. Until then, this thread is, to me, a lot of hot air...

There are ample sources online for those who seek something better, so the 'us vs. them' arguments are silly and potentially offensive to 'mainstreamers' who are comfortable where they are. Attempts to merge the two hobbies are pointless and, in theory at least, potentially damaging. You go your way, brother, and I'll go mine. That's all that can be said here.

Bill Birney

[Cannoneer]

I started reading this thread due to it's title. I think that the origination post was well put and thought out. The general course of the discussion has strayed close to the hate side of things, but I have come to expect that on the two reenacting boards I read.

Some time the "obvious" has to be stated, because it is not so obvious.

With that said, being in this "hobby" (seems more like a life style to me) for just two years, I have learned that nothing should be assumed, my gear will never be good enough and I will never learn enough.

I explain to the, I think the term is "taters", that my uniform is not truly correct and that the camps are way off. I will continue to improve my kit. I will walk the deadly ground between MS and AC for I am sure I will never make it very well in ether camp.

Off the soap box. (I can only take so much...)

[Tiger_rifles]

Mr. Birney and Mr. Trent,
When this thread was started, the question was posed, what can be done to get some in the re-enacting family to improve thier kits? I invented a "Fake" re-enactment event to show how the three groups, mainstreamers, campaigners, and all those in the middle, could work together at an event, and see the possible advantage of being more "correct", more "authentic", to be just a little closer to what the true soldiers looked like, smelled like, felt like, and so on. This is what happened to me at the 140th of Spots. Courthouse! I got to visit the Hard-core camp and decided that "this is what I want to do!" I got lucky, I met a campaigner that was willing to talk to me, show me thier camp, etc.... In other words, how can we that see the benefits of being "More Correct" show others how much they are missing by simply improving thier gear and equipment? But I can see from some of your responces:

Second, I wouldn't want to interact with some of the 'mainstream' units out there. Why would I want to do all the hard marching and hard living that is 'campaigning' when, at the end of the journey, I'd come face to face with the obvious inaccuracies to be found at a 'mainstream' event.....
What would the 'campaigners' get out of the deal? Nothing but some ambiance noise from the 'mainstream' battles.
Why would a 'mainstreamer' be willing to make sacrifices for something they never really wanted?
There is, in the end, no such thing as a common ground. 'Campaigners' and 'Mainstreamers' are heading in opposite directions, fortunately. 'Campaigners' are slowly heading towards higher and higher standards and expectations. 'Mainstreamers' are apparently happy where they are.

Kind Regards,
Bill Birney

That you only care about yourself and what you can do for just YOU!
It would seem to me this is why the "Hard-core", "Campaigner" numbers seem to be getting smaller and smaller each event/year. Or atleast that is the subject of many of the threads on the "AC". Now here in my area I hooked up with about a dozen guys that i would say were real "Mainstreamers"! But it only took about 2 or 3 events to show them that its alot easier to fill a knapsack or blanket roll than having to pack and unpack a wall tent or hall a cooler! And that you don't have to dry-clean your uniform after each event if it is Jean clothe and meant to be dirty! And that a 69 cal Mdl 42 makes a bigger "BANG" than a Enfield, and why not just buy it defarbed!
Now I would not call any of us "Campaigners", and a few did not want to follow the "more correct" path, but for those that did, we are a fine mess and enjoy each others company royally! They are my best friends and I love them like my brothers.........But I would never call them my "Pards".

I hope that you get whatever it is you are looking for from re-enacting.

[Tiger_rifles]

"giving a dissertation to the stream..."

I like that. Trying to convince someone to improve an impression is much like trying to change the course of a creek('crick' in my native Cecilian) with nothing but words. Or converting a Protestant to Catholicism. Or... You get the point.

Common sense arguments that lack results are pointless. As soon as one person sees this thread, reads it, and says 'Wow!!! I never thought about saving money for better gear and attending better events!", I'll take this back. Until then, this thread is, to me, a lot of hot air...

There are ample sources online for those who seek something better, so the 'us vs. them' arguments are silly and potentially offensive to 'mainstreamers' who are comfortable where they are. Attempts to merge the two hobbies are pointless and, in theory at least, potentially damaging. You go your way, brother, and I'll go mine. That's all that can be said here.

Bill Birney

Well grab a fork Bill and get ready to eat those words! I was a big farb and was invited to the Hard-core camp just to look around. Liked what I saw and changed my hole kit! I go to all my events now hard-core. So YES anyone can change if they can be shown how much fun it is.......not just made fun of because you feel that you are better than them.

[sigsaye]

No so fast Marylander, at 6'2" youns are indeed a red bar on the chart and as lean as you are very representative IMHO and I mean the compliment on your impression, really you would be a go to in any accurate casting.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/CWheightchart.gif

At my height and weight thar aint no red bar.

Not a flicker of bad feelings here working on it..holidays were a setback.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, FloridaFor what it's worth, I did conservation work on a documented uniform belonging to a Federal Sailor. Based on the dimensions of the uniform, the man was between 6 feet anf 6 foot 2 inches tall. He also had a 27 inch waist with a 37 inch chest, but he was a tall one.

Steve Hesson

[hanktrent]

In other words, how can we that see the benefits of being "More Correct" show others how much they are missing by simply improving thier gear and equipment? But I can see from some of your responces:

That you only care about yourself and what you can do for just YOU!

And the same is exactly true for most mainstreamers. For most people in general, actually.

Why should I attend an event where the majority of people don't care what I care about, don't want me to share what I do, and aren't interested in what I'm doing? What fun is that? What's the point? Especially when I have the option of attending events where the majority of people do care what I care about, are interested in what I'm doing, and I'm interested in and care about what they're doing.

I attended At High Tide as an officer's cook, and met another officer's cook there. He showed me his cooler and bragged about the chili and other non-period foods he'd cooked for officers in the past. I mentioned, in a friendly way, that he could cook without needing to bring things on ice, and he showed absolutely no interest in continuing that discussion. I tried to discuss some period foods, and he showed no interest in eliminating modern foods. We had nothing in common, and he was more interested in sharing with me about his mainstream reenacting life, than hearing about anything different.

In other words, all he cared about was himself and what he did in his hobby, and I was the same way. We had nothing in common, and neither wanted to change. No big surprise. That's just human nature--people are generally happy doing what they're doing, or they wouldn't do it.

If they want to change, they're more than welcome to seek out different things. But in my experience, I have as much chance of changing a mainstreamer into a campaigner by my actions at an event, as a mainstreamer has of getting me to be less accurate by showing me the benefits of coolers and coke-in-a-tin-cup.

Now I would not call any of us "Campaigners", and a few did not want to follow the "more correct" path, but for those that did, we are a fine mess and enjoy each others company royally!

Well, there ya go. Even you couldn't turn them into "campaigners." It's hard, isn't it? Not worth the trouble, in my opinion. I'd rather go to events among people with interests similar to my own, and it sounds like you enjoy the same thing.

Suppose somebody told you to start over and quit going to events with your friends that you get along with, and attend among others who didn't agree with your reenacting philosophy. That's what you want us to do. No thanks.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[MD_Independent26]

"That you only care about yourself and what you can do for just YOU!"

Yes, sir, to a degree. However, I care a lot about the real veterans of the CW. I am even now engaged in a project to locate and photograph the grave of every CW veteran that came from my county. I've got about three hundred graves recorded. Only 1200 more to go! In their honor, I have no desire to devalue history by portraying an historical lie or supporting those that do.

"It would seem to me this is why the "Hard-core", "Campaigner" numbers seem to be getting smaller and smaller each event/year."...

Comrade, what 'authentic' events have you attended over the past year to base this judgement on? Reenacting, across the board, is becoming smaller and smaller. It's been discussed even on this forum, so it's not a 'campaigner-only' problem. A large part of the problem for 'campaigners' has been a flood of quality events with too much confliction, hindering our efforts to support each other. I was lucky to be able to attend Marmaduke's Raid in MO and Westville, GA, about a month apart from each other and both over 16 hours from home. Too many so-called 'campaigners' waste their time doing 'mainstream' events when it is in their better interests to attend the EBUFU events.

"I hope that you get whatever it is you are looking for from re-enacting."

I am always seeking accurate scenarios and vignettes that will develop my understanding of life in the 19th century. I wish to experience to a very small degree what those boys experienced. I want to spend the night on different battlefields that I've never seen or heard of before. In these things, I've been successful. I've spent the night on three or four new battlefields, learned a thing or two about civilian life in southern GA, had a small taste of what one of my ancestors experienced after being captured at Glendale by being myself 'captured' at Glendale, on the same ground besides. I wouldn't trade any of those for a thousand 'mainstream' or Anders(no offense, Mr. Anders) events. So, yeah I'm getting what I'm looking for. And I hope you are, too.

One last point: I'm almost 27 years old now. I've reenacted for 11 years now, the first two spent in the 'mainstream' camp. Those were, to me, two years lost. Mathematically, I have maybe ten more good years of 'campaigning' left before I buy a rocking chair and a mule and retire to a civilian impression. And, yes, I mean a real civilian impression. Time is something precious and I will not be told how to use what little I have doing something for someone that doesn't care or appreciate it. Documenting CW graves is not a waste of time. Participating in events that increase my understanding of 1860's culture is not a waste of time. Trying to 'convert' someone to a new philosophy is... This is my final word on this topic. As I said in another post, this is a waste of air... Thanks and good luck.

Bill Birney

[tompritchett]

Gentlemen, this thread is starting to wander down that familar "us" vs. "them" path where people are starting to judge the other. I have no problem with individuals discussing why they do what they reenact the way that they do but I start drawing the line when individuals start telling others how others should reenact (versus could). This thread started as a borderline "should" thread but quickly went down the "could" path. Unfortunately, it is starting to come back to a "should" discussion. Let's keep it to just "could" discussions please.

[mnreb]

If those of you don't like what you see at reenactrments, then don't go! I do not have a problem being around those who are not "correct" as some would say. Money plays a big issue in their lives regardless of what many of you say. As far as the pointed cuffs go, look in eog before one starts to upchuck on another persons uniform. The majority of people that I meet in no way mean to belittle what the great people of 1861-1865 did, regardless of what some of you think. If you don't like how they are, then guide them rather than put them down. If they don't take your advice, then so be it. When I first started out a "hardcore" put down everything I had on. He stated how he had been to the "mountain top". I asked how he got to the event and if he dodged any bullets during it. He drove and no he did not dodge any. End of discussion. While I did learn from the conversation and worked to improve my impression greatly,(did not know any better, as most don't) I also remembered his holier than thou attitude. No thank you.

[mnreb]

Sorry, forgot to post my name to my post.
Bill Feuchtenberger
Co.H
1st South Carolina Volunteers
"It Do"

[Scooby_308]

It amazes me that so many folks do not know the history, much less the small details of the War. So many folks get into this for fun, more power to them. They start off in mainstream units and know no better. They see the mainstream events in their area but not the ebufu events. Some folks want more, some are happy with what they have. More power to all. But don’t pee down my back and tell me it is raining. By lumping all mainstreamers into a category with leopard skin pants wearing, wild injun (no offence to the NA populace), gold braid wearing, nuts is totally unacceptable.

I choose to do mainstream because I have friends and my kids can attend. In a perfect world I would have the money to outfit the kids in “perfect” gear. As it is I do well to have my own “good” gear. Saving money sounds great, but when you are outfitting four, three of which will outgrow their kit, is less than doable on a teacher’s salary. To their credit, the kids are taking the money they earn and their Christmas money to buy their own gear. They know that there are better quality items and are doing their best. But some folks are content with what hey have; that is fine too (except in the cases of the nuts, as listed above that show up).

My question is; are you having fun at your events? If so, why come and denounce others for having fun at their events? And that applies equally for both sides of the “hobby”. I have been in and out of the “hobby” for six years. It is amazing how much has changed and how much has stayed the same.

[Pvt Schnapps]

I would love to see Schnappers come down and I will buy dinner. He is from round your parts I am sure Federal would welcome his specialty impressions.

Olustee is not an authentic event ...but I make it happen in my own little distorted world (which is superiority free). It is a perfect example of a great event for a streamer to embrace the suck as Tackett likes to say.

I am working on a securing a mount.. as my GGGGrandfather was CS cav there. But we will hook up.


Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

One of my New Year's resolutions was to sort of lay off the boards, but now it's clear that from time to time I'm going to see a post that's irresistable. One of them recently dealt with a paperwork question. And then there's this.

I actually did get to Olustee about five years ago, falling in with a USCT unit (OK, it's a long story). I'd like to go back, and I would specifically like to go back to have a beer or dinner or both with Mr. Rideout, who I suspect would be a lot more fun to argue with in person than through this clumsy medium. Heck, there's probably a lot we wouldn't argue about.

Unfortunately, this year my event schedule will be pretty limited. Next year, on the other hand, I should have plenty of free time. Plus, I have family in the Jacksonville area, which improves the logistical aspect.

So pencil me in for 2010. When I last went to Olustee I was prepared for the worse, but actually found it to be pretty good. The tactical was great, the locals were a fine bunch of folks, and I've seen a lot worse in terms of authenticity.

Now, on the overall subject (since I'm already here), I suspect we all tend to focus our definitions of authenticity on the areas in which we've obtained a fair degree of proficiency. Mr. Gane, who started this thread, is one of those lucky and hard-working 5% who can actually pass for an original. I try to deflect attention from the fact that I can't by keeping my weight down (he// of a time of year to talk about that), marching reasonably period distances, and practicing my penmanship. I give all due respect to folks who make a similar effort in whatever their field happens to be, offer advice if I have it to folks who want it, and try not to get too out of sorts with people who don't try at all.

Most of us are pretty much the same in that regard, I think, no matter how much we snap at each other during idle periods at work.

[FloridaConfederate]

Mr. Gane, who started this thread, is one of those lucky and hard-working 5% who can actually pass for an original.


You can dress Mr Gane up in Paki kit from stem to stern and me in the finest of approved vendor goods right down to my hand knitted. spun and natural dyed whistle warmer and folks would pick Guy as the most accurate looking CW soldier everytime.

Physiotype, for a dead accurate top tier impression, is more important than single woven logwood dyed jean, 8 stitch to the inch leathers and period correct uber combustible linseed oil painted knapsacks. Most folks here aint lookin for dead accurate. Period men in general, but certainly soldiers did not have the access to empty carb - prcessed fats and sedentary lifestyle which bring on our pear shaped phisotypes. RJ will now post the pic of fat guy probably the officer with the pleated front frock supervising the construction of the cordory road.

If you want to do a dissertation to the stream, work up one on leaving the solo manned A-frame behind which would do a halibut lot more to improve the overall look and feel of the stream events and that dont cost anythin.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[flattop32355]

The hobby is a finite entity: There are only so many reenactors, so many events, so many etc, etc, etc. The only thing that is even remotely infinite is the amount of study one can do to learn more of the period, military, civilian, political, or whatever. There's large variation in how much any given person wants to do that study. Also, for or various reasons, the body count is shrinking all along the authenticity scale.

Put any two people in a room together and you automatically have an "US vs THEM". No two of us will ever agree completely on everything. Add to that the idea that our human nature is to focus on the one thing out of a hundred that we disagree about, and dispite the other ninety-nine common views, we'll get pissy with each other. Add more people to the room, and, well, guess what happens....

The hobby spectrum is broad, from those we refer to in various ways as bottom feeders to those who seek the ultimate experience short of actual combat. There's no way the extremes can be brought together, as the distance between intents and desires is too great.

However, there are large segments of this hobby that approximate each other to a greater degree in their commonality than in their differences. For some reason (human nature, again), we tend to focus on the differences rather than the greater similarities, and so stay isolated from each other when, at times, we could benefit from each other's presence and cooperation. Neither side would get its ideal, but both can gain a respectable experience from a common event. Neither would desire a steady diet of the other's style, but would benefit in some manner on an event by event basis.

There is probably more distance between the "ideals" and goals of Mr. Trent and I than between Mr. Birney and I, for example. Therefore, there would be fewer events where the former would both benefit than in the latter case. Still, those events exist, particularly when I'm willing to step things up a notch or two and Hank is willing to gain "something(s)" in exchange for the loss of some other thing(s), at least for that event. More events will share common enjoyment for Mr. Birney and I, though we are not alike in all our desires for and from the hobby.

Those areas of common ground exist to a greater extent than most of us are willing to admit. There are exceptions, but, then, there always are. On the whole, I'd guess there are from a few to several thousand reenactors who, on occasion, could come together in one place for an event and leave with more positives than negatives. All we have to do is set the time and place, and then.....(drum roll, please).....show up.

[Bill_Cross]

I have a counter-proposal to make. How about finding a way to fit 'mainstreamers' into a 'campaigners' event? I bet that there is enough loaner gear belonging to 'campaigners' to equip quite a few 'mainstreamers' for the effort.
At the risk of the proverbial "dead horse" getting tired of a beating and biting me....

This is just what several groups like the Rowdy Pards have been doing for almost a decade: encouraging those who are looking for a different experience to come and play in our sandbox under our rules. In fact, the only real growth in the campaigner wing of the hobby has been from "crossovers": pards who enjoy both kinds of experience. Those of us who no longer attend full-fledged mainstream events are dying out, and the sharp wrong turn the campaigner wing of the hobby took around 2001-2 was when it thought it had THE ANSWER and began eating its young. Several years followed of internicine battles that left some of us exhausted, others left CW reenacting (WW II gained at our loss), and some are dead now.

The only way to grow the hobby is by offering a variety of experiences with no value judgements attached.

The hobby is a finite entity: There are only so many reenactors, so many events.
It's a hobby, and you attract participants to an event by giving them a good experience, not by making them feel foolish or inadequate. Gear is no longer the issue it was 10 years ago: many mainstreamers are kitted-out as well or better than many campaigners. Drill was never an issue (campaigners often can't drill well because they're attending 25-man LHs ;)). Being in first person isn't even a problem, since many crossovers I've dealt with are too scared of the "hard kewls" to open their mouths, LOL!

Mainstreamers can benefit a lot by attending "our" events, and that's why so many of them do. When the RPs assemble in Georgia in November, our ranks will contain some fellers who are looking for a different experience than they'll get at a streamer event. Not better, different. If someone needs an item of gear, we have loaners. If they aren't sure about a semi-immersion event, we'll coach 'em. They'll have a good time. Not the same "good time" they would have sitting around the campfire passing the flask or walking up and down Sutler Row, because they'll be busy looking for victuals or standing guard. But they'll get their money's worth for the weekend, I can promise you that!

[MtVernon]

It's not about being hardkewl - it's about being correct.

100% on target. I always tell the guys in my SUV camp, "We honor our ancestors by getting it right!"

[hanktrent]

Gear is no longer the issue it was 10 years ago: many mainstreamers are kitted-out as well or better than many campaigners. Drill was never an issue (campaigners often can't drill well because they're attending 25-man LHs ;)). Being in first person isn't even a problem, since many crossovers I've dealt with are too scared of the "hard kewls" to open their mouths, LOL!

Which brings us to the question, what is a mainstreamer?

Is it someone who typically attends mainstream events, but is willing to try to do what everyone else is doing at a c/p/h event, with a little help and coaching and loaner gear? No problem. No one shows up with "mainstreamer" permanently branded on their forehead. The more the merrier, I say. Let them all come to campaign events, because they'll be indistinguishable from campaigners at those events anyway.

Is it someone who wants to attend the event but wants to do it the way they're used to, insisting on their cooler, their time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to their campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth? Well, that's going to require a major change in the way the event is run, and may impact the experiences of other reenactors, and really won't give the mainstreamer a different experience than he could get at mainstream events anyway, so why bother? He's already shown he doesn't want to change.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Tiger_rifles]

Why should I attend an event where the majority of people don't care what I care about, don't want me to share what I do, and aren't interested in what I'm doing? What fun is that? What's the point?

***As I already stated, this thread was started to see if there were any idea's on how to help some re-enactors to become "more correct". If you don't wanna help..... then why did you even bother reading this thread? If you have nothing to offer but "It will never work!!!", then why did you post???

I attended At High Tide as an officer's cook, and met another officer's cook there. He showed me his cooler and bragged about the chili and other non-period foods he'd cooked for officers in the past. I mentioned, in a friendly way, that he could cook without needing to bring things on ice, and he showed absolutely no interest in continuing that discussion. I tried to discuss some period foods, and he showed no interest in eliminating modern foods. We had nothing in common, and he was more interested in sharing with me about his mainstream reenacting life, than hearing about anything different.

****GREAT!!! you tried! But because it failed the first time, does this mean it will never work ever again?

If they want to change, they're more than welcome to seek out different things. But in my experience, I have as much chance of changing a mainstreamer into a campaigner by my actions at an event, as a mainstreamer has of getting me to be less accurate by showing me the benefits of coolers and coke-in-a-tin-cup.

****The hole point here is that why do we have to split EVERYTHING into "Mainstream" and "Campaigner"? Yes, we can still have our "High Tide" and "Into the Piney Woods" and the other side can burn powder at the 147th of whatever..............but why can't we all come together at one event a year that offers something for both sides. Then just maybe, a mess or a Unit will see that they can still be friends, not have to "change sides", to be "More Correct". And be able to go to more events and feel welcome.



Well, there ya go. Even you couldn't turn them into "campaigners." It's hard, isn't it? Not worth the trouble,no thanks.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

****If its not worth the trouble..........then why event post here?

[Guy Gane III]

The following pictures are a look at when I first "officially" started reenacting (not those times I used to run around my yard and take hits... haha)

The first pic was taken in 1997 at Genessee Country Museum and the next was while working on "Fields of Freedom", in Keedysville, MD, in 2005.

I went from UBER-farb to learning a lot about Reb uniforms in that time... and my main impression has always been Federal. It just took hanging out with people who knew a lot more than I did and actually listening to what they had to say. From there I went on to read and study on my own. (And I hated school! ;) )

[Tiger_rifles]

"
One last point: I'm almost 27 years old now. I've reenacted for 11 years now, the first two spent in the 'mainstream' camp. Those were, to me, two years lost. Mathematically, I have maybe ten more good years of 'campaigning' left before I buy a rocking chair and a mule and retire to a civilian impression. And, yes, I mean a real civilian impression. Time is something precious and I will not be told how to use what little I have doing something for someone that doesn't care or appreciate it. Documenting CW graves is not a waste of time. Participating in events that increase my understanding of 1860's culture is not a waste of time. Trying to 'convert' someone to a new philosophy is... This is my final word on this topic. As I said in another post, this is a waste of air... Thanks and good luck.

Bill Birney

Mr. Birney, I read your reply and I understand your points. But don't you think are there some guys out there that also feel they are wasteing thier time doing the same old Strawberry festivals and Scottish Games year after year? Guys that would really like to try out the "Hard-core" side of re-enacting, but don't ever see any "Campaigners" at the events they go to?
I have heard it so many times now that,"if they wanted to get better there are lots of sources out there", but do you really think someone is going to drop $2,000+ on a whole new kit and show up at "Into the Piney Woods" not knowing if they got the right stuff?
I know, I was there once, it takes alot of guts to turn your back on your Unit, your friends, and walk up to those "campaigners" ( you don't know, they may start throwing rocks at you!), and ask "how can I do what you are doing?", "Can I join your group", "Whats a MESS?", etc.......
Now the really tuff part is going back to your friends and saying, "Hey guys, if we get this stuff called jean clothe, we can do this really cool event in 6 months, and I have already talked to The Red River Batt. and we can fallin with them!" And the ones that come along become your mess, and the ones that turn thier backs you never hear from again.
Well, I guess I have said about as much as i care to also....
Thanks and Good luck to you Sir, Paul.

[Tiger_rifles]

At the risk of the proverbial "dead horse" getting tired of a beating and biting me....

This is just what several groups like the Rowdy Pards have been doing for almost a decade: encouraging those who are looking for a different experience to come and play in our sandbox under our rules. In fact, the only real growth in the campaigner wing of the hobby has been from "crossovers": pards who enjoy both kinds of experience. Those of us who no longer attend full-fledged mainstream events are dying out, and the sharp wrong turn the campaigner wing of the hobby took around 2001-2 was when it thought it had THE ANSWER and began eating its young. Several years followed of internicine battles that left some of us exhausted, others left CW reenacting (WW II gained at our loss), and some are dead now.

The only way to grow the hobby is by offering a variety of experiences with no value judgements attached.


It's a hobby, and you attract participants to an event by giving them a good experience, not by making them feel foolish or inadequate. Gear is no longer the issue it was 10 years ago: many mainstreamers are kitted-out as well or better than many campaigners. Drill was never an issue (campaigners often can't drill well because they're attending 25-man LHs ;)). Being in first person isn't even a problem, since many crossovers I've dealt with are too scared of the "hard kewls" to open their mouths, LOL!

Mainstreamers can benefit a lot by attending "our" events, and that's why so many of them do. When the RPs assemble in Georgia in November, our ranks will contain some fellers who are looking for a different experience than they'll get at a streamer event. Not better, different. If someone needs an item of gear, we have loaners. If they aren't sure about a semi-immersion event, we'll coach 'em. They'll have a good time. Not the same "good time" they would have sitting around the campfire passing the flask or walking up and down Sutler Row, because they'll be busy looking for victuals or standing guard. But they'll get their money's worth for the weekend, I can promise you that!

Mr Cross. You are a Gentleman and a Scholar! And wise beyond your Years!
I can not tell you how many CW folks we have lost to WW2 here in the Colorado area, and back in Virginia to Rev War and 1812. Most could not stand the politics.
I would love to hear about what The Rowdy Pards are doing this year and how could a small mess like mine join in!
many Thanks, Paul.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

IMHO...

These are the issues that continue to divide us, but at the same time continue to prevent "them" from becoming "us."

And as we are in yet another, "waxing and waning" cycle in the Civil War community as well as many other periods of time's communities due to the economy, etc.

We have again skated out onto the ice of "Missionary Work" and "Leading By Example" because lads evolve and grow in their own personal development and Mental Pictures where the arguments appear to make sense.

Still, IMHO...

Missionary Work and Leading By Example (aka Islands in the Mainstream) are based upon the thinking that historical accuracy in impressions, kit, and activities is inherently superior to historical inaccuracy (also defined as Recreational Pageantry, modern camping under canvas, Yahooism, Farbery, etc. or reenacting Reenacting for varied reasons not "History Heavy" for a return or bang for the buck in terms of time and money invested).

Missionary Work does work on a small, personal level, for those lads who have reached a point in their growth and development where they want to try something "different." But, if the goal of Missionary Work is convert large numvers of the "unwashed" and "heathen" then it is a waste of time in that at best it brings in the scattered one or two lads at a time. once in a while.

I would possibly argue that there was a time in the re-computer age when a lad who felt the need or desire to try something different had to be lucky enough to go to a so-called Farb or Mainstream event hoping to see some lads in the Alphabet Letters to the right he could approach.
Now with boards and fora, one can read about these mysterious and often villified folks "on line," and even strike up contacts, relationships, and invitations by posting, PM, or e-mail.
And I maintain that there is even more true for the so-called H and A Alphabet lads who have grown through the failures of Missionary Work in changing the Reenacting World to be like them- and no longer attend F, M, or C segment events.

Bu ti also maintain, that for some lads, "extinction is the ultimate form of evolution" in that "reenacting" and even "living history" is often in the shape of a pyramid. The "higher" one goes, the smaller the tier of stones, and the fewer folks can reside there before moving up to even smaller tiers for fewer people chosing to climb. But eventually, one gets to the where the point of the pyramid is a pain in the arse, and all they can do is go backwards down the pyramid or start a new hobby or interest.

With the decline of the "Authenticity Movement" whether a natural decline or the result of being crushed by its own weight and no place to go but "down" or "out," yes, other periods have benefited such as (currently) WWI or WWII (just like the CW and F & I benefited after the Rev War's 200th series of events).

And lads who thought they could change the Reenacting World through Leading By Example, Missionary Work, Islands in the Mainstream- and lastly by
ridicule, insult, offense, and plain old shouting, yelling, and swearing... well...
we do not hear those names as much or at all, and new names take their places as they approach and reach Burn Out.

;) :)

People do what works for them, even long after it no longer does.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[tompritchett]

Moderator Hat: Paul, you have been using a "should" tack in your recent posts in this thread. Your point has been made multiple times and I would suggest that you drop this line of argument before I have to start deleting posts.

[tompritchett]

****If its not worth the trouble..........then why event post here?

Simple, if gives options to reenactors if they are wanting to go beyond the same-o, same-o. No one say that everyone here should go to these events, but the option is made available to them.

[tompritchett]

Is it someone who wants to attend the event but wants to do it the way they're used to, insisting on their cooler, their time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to their campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth? Well, that's going to require a major change in the way the event is run, and may impact the experiences of other reenactors, and really won't give the mainstreamer a different experience than he could get at mainstream events anyway, so why bother? He's already shown he doesn't want to change.

It all boils down to whether or not a reenactor is willing to abide by the rules and guidelines of the event, regardless of what type of event it is. If he or she is willing, then they are welcome; if they are not, then the event is usually better off without them.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Is it someone who wants to attend the event but wants to do it the way they're used to, insisting on their cooler, their time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to their campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth?"

IMHO...

It is often the opposite that can be the greater "problem."
That being the lad who attends and rails, rants, and raves about the cooler, the time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to a campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth (insert banes of choice here) where the event's culture and tradition ARE:

coolers, the time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to a campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth (insert banes of choice here)...

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS

[lincolnsguard]

Ergo:

Why spend $ on good gear when the "culture" suggets otherwise?

An answerless discussion for sure.

[hanktrent]

GREAT!!! you tried! But because it failed the first time, does this mean it will never work ever again?

I tried for my first ten years of reenacting to attend mainstream events and get the reenactors/organizers to improve them, because there either weren't c/p/h events available or I didn't know how to find them. I was miserable. Around 2000 I started finding and attending mostly c/p/h events, with an occasional mainstream one. Though I've still met some resistance trying to suggest improvements even for those events--for the same reason that most people really do do what they enjoy and don't want to change--I also enjoy events immensely, because they're already starting at a more accurate level to begin with.

In my opinion, reenacting isn't Multi-Level Marketing, where your main purpose after signing up is to recruit others to do the same.

As I already stated, this thread was started to see if there were any idea's on how to help some re-enactors to become "more correct". If you don't wanna help..... then why did you even bother reading this thread? If you have nothing to offer but "It will never work!!!", then why did you post???
...

****If its not worth the trouble..........then why event post here?

On the contrary, I think many reenactors are becoming more correct every day. Outside of events, I've done what I can to help, by posting research, suggestions, etc. Here's the difference, though:

Attending an event requires:
$$ for gas or transportation
$$ for a motel stay afterwards before driving/riding home
$$ for special food or gear for the particular event
time for all the above plus study and preparation
a weekend away that might have been spent elsewhere
physical discomfort of heat, cold, bugs, etc.

vs.

Typing a post on the internet requires:
no $$$
less than five minutes
discomfort: zero

Pretty clear why I prefer one method of encouraging reenactors to be more accurate, over the other.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[FloridaConfederate]

It is men w/ impressions like Hank Trent that make me want to work hard to square my personal impression away. We have done an event portraying citizens of a working 1861 Georgia town and I thoroughly enjoyed our first person discourse.

This ole boy is the real deal.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[tompritchett]

Why spend $ on good gear when the "culture" suggets otherwise?

Personal pride in your impression. This applies regardless of what type of event one decides to attend.

[tompritchett]

IMHO...

It is often the opposite that can be the greater "problem."
That being the lad who attends and rails, rants, and raves about the cooler, the time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to a campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth (insert banes of choice here) where the event's culture and tradition ARE:

coolers, the time off for modern beer drinking, being able to drive up to a campsight, being allowed to bring modern items if they're sorta hidden, and so forth (insert banes of choice here)...

I will agree with you that both are problems but the other scenario was not applicable to Hank's post therefore I only focussed on those unwilling to abide by event rules, guidelines and overall expectations. Many an event has been trashed here and elsewhere because, as you mentioned, individuals attended events with expectations that did not those of the event organizers - sometimes causing residual hard feelings that can last for years.

[flattop32355]

The first pic was taken in 1997 at Genessee Country Museum and the next was while working on "Fields of Freedom", in Keedysville, MD, in 2005.

Ahhhhhh, the Battle of Gazebo Field at Mumford! If only they'd leave us in the town....but they can fit a lot of additional (paying) spectators around that field, which helps keep the place running, so I can understand why they do it.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Ahhhhhh, the Battle of Gazebo Field at Mumford! If only they'd leave us in the town...."

I may have fallen behind the Times. I last attended Mumford in 2002 or 2003, and we were allowed to "street fight" in, around, and through the town-though ending up on Gazebo Field.

Has it "changed?"

CHS

[flattop32355]

I have heard it so many times now that,"if they wanted to get better there are lots of sources out there", but do you really think someone is going to drop $2,000+ on a whole new kit and show up at "Into the Piney Woods" not knowing if they got the right stuff?

Don't drop the $2,000.00 on a new kit. Just show up with $2000.00 worth of determination to take part in the event. Go with what you've got, and let 'em know where you're coming from.

Get past the fear of looking stupid in front of "good" reenactors; you won't. Talk less and listen a lot. Observe. Ask questions. Do what is asked of you, which is not really all that hard to do. Don't be afraid of messing up; others around you will be messing up from time to time, too. Shake some hands and introduce yourself, even if you're shy (and filled with trepidation).

How do I know? Because I did it. Drove to the 2nd Manassas LH, alone, with all the emotional baggage I could carry, determined to see if I could do it. A funny thing happened there; I found out I could. Probably not an Into the Piney Woods or Banks Grand Retreat, but I held my own.

I know, I was there once, it takes alot of guts to turn your back on your Unit, your friends, and walk up to those "campaigners" ( you don't know, they may start throwing rocks at you!), and ask "how can I do what you are doing?", "Can I join your group", "Whats a MESS?", etc........

Ain't no reason to turn one's back on one's unit, friends, or anyone else. I'm still part of my mainstream unit (organizational chairman and 2nd Sgt., in fact). My first loyalty is there. When my unit is not attending an event, and there's something I or a few of us from the unit decide we want to attend, we are free to go to it, and that includes cph events.

Some folks, on both sides, don't like, or can't imagine, the idea of jumping the fence. I have no problem with it, as each side has its charms, and what I might want out of one event is not the same thing I want out of another event. Isn't that why they invented gates?

And even if you can't find the gate, the fence really isn't all that tall to jump over. All it takes is leaving some of the excess baggage behind so you can get over....

[flattop32355]

Hallo!

"Ahhhhhh, the Battle of Gazebo Field at Mumford! If only they'd leave us in the town...."

I may have fallen behind the Times. I last attended Mumford in 2002 or 2003, and we were allowed to "street fight" in, around, and through the town-though ending up on Gazebo Field.

Has it "changed?"

Depending upon the year, it has started in Gazebo Field and ended in the town, or visa versa. Both are used each year. Last year, we went from the town to the field. I much prefer the town part.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

How d' ye!

Danke, Herr Bernard!

CHS

[hanktrent]

It is men w/ impressions like Hank Trent that make me want to work hard to square my personal impression away. We have done an event portraying citizens of a working 1861 Georgia town and I thoroughly enjoyed our first person discourse.

This ole boy is the real deal.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

Chris, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you don't give yourself (and your son) enough credit. You'd fit right in at whatever c/p/h event you want to attend, and if'n you still want to go to Piney Woods with our little group, the invite's still open.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[FloridaConfederate]

Chris, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you don't give yourself (and your son) enough credit. You'd fit right in at whatever c/p/h event you want to attend, and if'n you still want to go to Piney Woods with our little group, the invite's still open.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net


I are not man enough to pull off five days on the hoof of my own free will.

Knowest thine lane.

Chris Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[flattop32355]

I are not man enough to pull off five days on the hoof of my own free will.

Same reason I won't be there, and didn't do BGR. I honestly don't think I could last the entire march. Knowing that any number of other, more fit fellows may not (and didn't, at BGR) make it all the way either adds to that assurance.

Ask me to do it again thirty years ago, and I'll be there in a heartbeat.

[Tiger_rifles]

Don't drop the $2,000.00 on a new kit. Just show up with $2000.00 worth of determination to take part in the event. Go with what you've got, and let 'em know where you're coming from.

Get past the fear of looking stupid in front of "good" reenactors; you won't. Talk less and listen a lot. Observe. Ask questions. Do what is asked of you, which is not really all that hard to do. Don't be afraid of messing up; others around you will be messing up from time to time, too. Shake some hands and introduce yourself, even if you're shy (and filled with trepidation).

How do I know? Because I did it. Drove to the 2nd Manassas LH, alone, with all the emotional baggage I could carry, determined to see if I could do it. A funny thing happened there; I found out I could. Probably not an Into the Piney Woods or Banks Grand Retreat, but I held my own.



Ain't no reason to turn one's back on one's unit, friends, or anyone else. I'm still part of my mainstream unit (organizational chairman and 2nd Sgt., in fact). My first loyalty is there. When my unit is not attending an event, and there's something I or a few of us from the unit decide we want to attend, we are free to go to it, and that includes cph events.

Some folks, on both sides, don't like, or can't imagine, the idea of jumping the fence. I have no problem with it, as each side has its charms, and what I might want out of one event is not the same thing I want out of another event. Isn't that why they invented gates?

And even if you can't find the gate, the fence really isn't all that tall to jump over. All it takes is leaving some of the excess baggage behind so you can get over....

That's Great Flattop!!!! Now go out there and find that "Mainstreamer Only" Guy that would really like to try sleeping on the ground and eating only out of a haversack for 3 days and show him how to "walk the walk!".

[Blair]

Here-in lies what I believe is part of the problem.
A lack of willingness to do the "showing" and to be "shown".
The two factions have been bashing each other over the head with authenticity, or lack thereof, for so long it's become personal to and for many. The shear mention of the word "authenticity" causes some to cringe, but not all react this way.
The primary source for campaigner recruiting comes from mainstream.
The antagonistic attitudes between the two must be overcome by both camps.
I have jumped this metaphoric fence many times. I have found it easy to do and enjoyed myself in both camps. I believe it has made me a better reenactor for having done so.
IMHO, I also believe it would be wrong for me to try to "force" that experiance on to others. The best I can do is to try to suggest others give it a try.
Blair Taylor

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In my heretical view...

And having "been at" the various developmental and evolutionary plateaus that make "insult/ridicule/derision," "Leading By Example," "Missionary Work."
"Islands in the Mainstream," and "Carpe Eventum" beliefs and efforts seem worth doing...

IMHO... They (often arrogantly) assume and presume that lads in the left side Alphabet Letters of the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm are wrong, misguided, misinformed, mistaken, inferior, deluded, delusional, and distorting if not perverting history, and lying to or misleading themselves, each other, and the spectator public they claim to be educating, etc., etc.

And that they just do not know they are "wrong" and can be moved to the right side Alphabets like Moses parting the Red Sea to lead the Istaelites ut of Egyptian bondage for the Promised Land through "insult/ridicule/derision," "Leading By Example," "Missionary Work."
"Islands in the Mainstream," and "Carpe Eventum."

To steal, er borrow, a phrase to turn...

Some lads are in a lane because they want to be in that lane.

IMHO, "we" need to be accepting but at the same time open, forthcoming, and supportive for the lads wishing to change lanes in providing the opportunities, avenues, support, and friendship for the few that want to "change."

I "out grew" my phase of trying to tell people what they don't want to hear or know. (Don't tell me what I don't want to know.) Or the lads the choose the "I don't know and don't care that I don't know." because that is the choice that makes them happy in their chosen lane.

The "best" I can do, IMHO is to be open, supportive, and helpful in regards to lads who want and seek to move toward the right Alphabet Letters and leave be the ones who choose to not.
And while I have the scars from not doing the latter, I now find numerous PM"s and E-mails on a daily basis for the former.

Others' mileage, hereisies, and scars, will vary...

CHS

[flattop32355]

That's Great Flattop!!!! Now go out there and find that "Mainstreamer Only" Guy that would really like to try sleeping on the ground and eating only out of a haversack for 3 days and show him how to "walk the walk!".

The interesting thing about that is that they tend to find you...

They notice Men, Methods and Materials that they wish to emulate. They start studying the difference between where they are and where they want to go. They start putting out feelers to others to see who is getting the same bug that has bitten them. They start asking questions, and, heaven forbid, they come to places like this forum in search of others and ideas and support.

It's a "Seek, and ye shall find" kinda thing. If one looks for it, one will find it. Those who have no interest in looking won't, and will be content where they are, which is fine for them.

The shear mention of the word "authenticity" causes some to cringe

Authenticity, IMHO, is an illusion. All the Authentics are dead, years ago. The best we can do is try to be as accurate as possible. "As possible" is the tricky part. Strive for accuracy, knowing you won't get there, but will enjoy the ride. :)

[Trimmings]

This thread provides an excellent example of how many myths can be perpetuated all at once! Excellent job! Carry on. :roll:

[FloridaConfederate]

This thread provides an excellent example of how many myths can be perpetuated all at once! Excellent job! Carry on. :roll:

Which myths are those ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Scooby_308]

Hallo!

The "best" I can do, IMHO is to be open, supportive, and helpful in regards to lads who want and seek to move toward the right Alphabet Letters and leave be the ones who choose to not.
And while I have the scars from not doing the latter, I now find numerous PM"s and E-mails on a daily basis for the former.

Others' mileage, hereisies, and scars, will vary...

CHS

Herr Schmidt,

I know of which you speak! Many moons ago I saw you as the lone person I could approach on the AC as a “newbie”. I am sure that I flooded your inbox back them. You were always courteous and forth coming.

Thank you for the help (then as well as now),

[Tiger_rifles]

This thread provides an excellent example of how many myths can be perpetuated all at once! Excellent job! Carry on. :roll:

"DO YOU MEAN ITS A MYTH THAT YANKIES HAVE TAILS AND THIER BELLIES ARE BLUE?????"

[Blair]

Bernard,

Yes, I think you got my intended meaning regarding the usage of the word "authenticity".
While all the Authentics are indeed dead, many of the things they used and carried with them are still with us today.
We can use these items to help improve our impressions.
Back in the days when Moby **** was a guppy, (not all that long ago for some of us, and more than a life time for others) the term "hard core" CW reenacter was used to refer to a person that wore a wool uniform year round.
More research, better documentation and a greater attention to details have caused a revolution in every aspect of the hobby.
All of these things came about by people who were looking to get a little more out of the hobby. People, that for the most part, came from the regular reenacter, those now refered to as mainstreames today.
Those things that marked the differences such as a basic wool uniforms are now available to everyone, with varying degrees of quality and cost, to be sure.
Few people can afford the price I charge for a custom built CW firearm.
The same is true for a custom made frock coat. My point being, I believe most people want to get the best they can find to improve their impression. Often, they are unaware there are alternatives.
Blair Taylor

[RJSamp]

Back in the days when Moby **** was a guppy, (not all that long ago for some of us, and more than a life time for others) the term "hard core" CW reenacter was used to refer to a person that wore a wool uniform year round.

My point being, I believe most people want to get the best they can find to improve their impression. Often, they are unaware there are alternatives.
Blair Taylor

Had never heard of your first point......ever....are you saying that the "hardcores" wore their uniform daily: to work, church, swim at the pool, shopping, etc? Or are you saying they wore wool to reenactments in the winter summer fall, et al?

Having worn wool suits for decades to work....


Your second point is your belief.....but I don't share the opinion. I don't know what your 'get the best they can find' means.....we've all found $600 great coats, $500 frock coats, $1,500 original rifles, etc.... but I don't see reenactors, in the main, buying/getting the best they can find, the best they can afford, the best available, etc. And yes, they may be unaware of alternatives, but probably not (events, open their eyes, the internet, photo's etc should make them blissfully or painfully aware)......they simply don't want to spend $200 on a pair of trowsers when they're doing fine with the $60 pair..... or buy a $50 dipper when that cup from home is free.

[Blair]

RJ,

"The Civil War Reenactores Discussion Forum". Why would I be referring to work, Church, swimming, etc.? Although I have know some that did and do, with maybe the exception of the swim part. (?)

Are the wool suits you have warn for decades the same kind of wool as was used in CW uniforms?

Last point,
Yes, as I stated, it is my belief. And No, I would not dream of requiring you or anyone else to share in that opinion.
Offering suggestions to, or for alternatives seems ("to me") to be an acceptable approach toward helping people. It cost me nothing and may help the hobby in the long run. What they chose to do with it from that point on is up to them.
Blair Taylor

[plankmaker]

I'm still waiting for Bigfoot to come up in this thread.

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[tompritchett]

I'm still waiting for Bigfoot to come up in this thread.

Or Lake Champlain's Champ.

[plankmaker]

Not sure about Lake Champlain's Champ, but don't go mesing with Sasquatch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2d_m2OVa_g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhbe_C9mvIs&NR=1

Mark Campbell
Piney Flats, TN

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Ohio has the "Grassman."

IMHO...

"The Authentics" are dead." is a trendy but annoying saying. ;) :)

Actual Civil War soldiers are dead.
They never were "authentic" or "inauthentic, they just "were" as they did not concern themselves over so-called Farbery or Authenticity because everything they had and did was "authentic."
If they had any concern it was likely over size, and whether the item was serviceable enough to last to the next reissuance cycle and not cost them the deduction of a replacement if it wasn't.
They did not worry if their kit was "authentic" for two reasons:

1. It was all "authentic."
2. And while they did have government issue, varying degrees of inspector acceptance, and even fraud and shoddy, they did not personally buy from makers and vendors offering goods that appealed to varying Mental Pictures of the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm letters.

To me "authentic" to me is just how "close" one can strive to get to the CW physical and mental man, the material culture, and simulations and emulations of some of the doable things "they" did as part of their daily lives.

Beyond that, "Authentic" is just a modern label or Alphabet Letter some lads conveniently use to try to describe what they are doing that someone else is not doing.
And the trendy fashion is to delete the "A" from the "F/M/C/P/H" model.

On the other hand, it has been said that is the Authenticity Movement is dead, not the Authentics, having reached its High Tide and dieing between 2002 and 2004.

:)

Like the "Poison" label on a bottle, in the end the label is only useful or helpful if the potential users agree on what it means.
Ask... Alice.

Or what does "Faggot, Poser, Weakling, Uber-Keyboard Hardkewyl" really tell you about me?

;)

Of course, others' mileage will vary...

CHS
Heretic

[Blair]

Let's not forget Florida has the "skunk ape".
What's that mean? Don't ask me.
"Just the facts, Sir." Dragnet
Blair Taylor

[RJSamp]

RJ,

Are the wool suits you have warn for decades the same kind of wool as was used in CW uniforms?

Blair Taylor

Yes they are. I have read of Officer's who ordered new suits (that would be a uniform to you and I) from Brooks Brothers in New York....or John Wanamaker's in Philadelphia...and had the suits expressed to them at the 'front'. I wonder if that upstart company American Express will succeed as an ongoing concern....

In general, the blanket weight wools you see in many ACW reenacting uniforms are way too heavy. Issued Private's Frock Coat's were more on the order of fine flannel broadcloath.....like in a fine men's suit today. Fine men's suit wool used for reenacting uniforms costs a pretty penny, but there it is. Personally I'm about due for an upgrade on my Sullivan trowsers.....time to go for Wool instead of Woolrich.....but they sure wear well.

Anyway, what do you see in the hobby that leads you to form the belief that reenactors get the best they can find? I go to events and see a lot of garbage and know that people can do better.....can find better..... can afford better..... can get better.....then see the same people 1-5 years later and they are same-o, same-o...... (except for the obvious fading of color....and the black hats turning brown).

[Poor Private]

RJ has it mostly right. I will not buy a 200 buck coat or 200 buck pair of pants for reenacting EVER. What I have is what I will use. Other things in my life is more important to spend my hard earned cash on (especially in these times). Things such as this months $250 gas and electric bill, Groceries for the family, insurance and just general neccessities. This is Just a Dang hobby, not my livelyhood. Now if someone wants to pay me to play make believe then that would be different.
Now wouldn't it be interesting to find out how many reenactors have wives and families. I read alot of postings from divorced, and young men, or lifetime bachelors. Me I have been married 32 yrs., and the wife does not participate- but will give me a peck on the cheek before I leave and wishes me fun. If she said I can't do it guess what I wouldn't.... My life with her is more important. This is only a hobby not a vocation!

[GaWildcat]

I am with you there pard! I am fortunate that my wife enjoys the hobby, but I also cant drop some of the amounts out there on uniform parts. I did dump a bunch into a frock coat for our wedding! My latest frock, cost me maybe at the most, $75. No its not from some Paki sweatshop. Its from my own living room. I have taken to making my own stuff, and my frock was the first project (and an ambitious one at that!!) I admit, its not out of jeans, or satinette, or cassimere, or even wool. I made it out of cotton (not ticking, so no its not an attempt at the Schumpert coat at the AHC) so I didnt experiment with an expensive material first. Which was good, as I did make mistakes that I didnt catch untill the end of the project. The next one will be out of broadcloth, once I can save the funds. I will add this, even though its machine sewn, I understand why the folks who hand sew charge what they do... it aint an easy process. There is alot of stuff I want.. a better knapsack for one, but that will wait untill I am back in school, when Uncle Sugar should be paying me almost $1500 in a housing allowance thanks to the new GI Bill.

Do I want to get better, of course. Have I gotten better since I started? OMG yes. I found some pictures from 20+ years ago, and while the physique was better then... oh law! the uniform... its a gradual thing in my book, especially for those of us who put family before hobby..

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Authenticity has almost nothing to do with married or single, children or none, pets or not, own or rent, etc. I know authentics who are broke and unemployed and I know several who make 6 figure incomes. Its all a matter of priorities and attitude. I've chosen the recreation of historical life over marriages and better jobs and will continue to as long as I draw breath on my own (or longer than that if they can figure out how to defarb the oxygen tanks and breathing tubes).

[Tiger_rifles]

Anyway, what do you see in the hobby that leads you to form the belief that reenactors get the best they can find? I go to events and see a lot of garbage and know that people can do better.....can find better..... can afford better..... can get better.....then see the same people 1-5 years later and they are same-o, same-o...... (except for the obvious fading of color....and the black hats turning brown).

Master Blair, if i may have the floor.........

RJ,
I am part of a small mess here on the front range of Northern Colorado. Of the 6 of us,(last time I asked), none but me are a member of this forum, the AC or the WCC. At the end of 2007 we aquired a bolt of jeanclothe, dyed it ourselves and had the taylor from our brother Unit make us all matching Depot Jackets. Mattimore Harness out of Laramie,Wy. made custom brogans for our brother Unit and most of us picked a pair of those up. Last year two of our guys asked me to find them cartridge/cap boxes and I found some nice used L.D. Haning stuff from this forum. The rest of our gear we have aquired on our own, I make our waist belts, scabbards, packs, and haversacks. We head back East to an event once a year, our local events are down in NM or AZ and have NO sutlers! We do a few local Living Histories and so on. After driving 18 -22 hours to an event "back East", or flying in and renting a car, we seldom hit the sutlers,( maybe if we need caps, etc....),and often rush out to find the Unit kind enuff to let us fall in with them. On Sunday we MAY stop to have our image stuck, but then its back in the truck for the long ride home.
I think it would be safe to say that we "get the best they can find" Or atleast the "Best" we care to find.
I would also say that there are more re-enactors that do not belong to ANY CW forum and thier only source for information on gear and equipment is the guys in thier Unit and the people they meet at events.

[Blair]

RJ,

My statement was,
" I believe "most" people "want" to get the best they can find to improve their impression."
Blair Taylor

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Yes, but...

If wishes were horses, we would all ride.

I agree that folks wear and use what works for them. (At whichever Alphabet Letter).

While everyone NUG knows their budget, disposable income, and desire to spend what amount to own what...

There are lads with six figure incomes who buy $475 Colonial Williamsburg shoes and lads with four figure incomes that wear the same black work shoes they do at work during the week. But I also know lads with six figure incomes who wear black work shoes.
As part of their Mental Pictures, some lads manage their resources to get the most accurate kit because it is important to them. Others even with the disposable income do not because that is not important to their enjoyment of the Hobby (however they define it).

IMHO, many lads "want" the best then can find or have made.
But most, for both valid as well as invalid personal reseasons (presence or absence of disposable income AND/OR the desire AND ability to spend it- compromise on having what works for them.

Taking this to the 18th century community, there are many lads who would "want" to have a hand-made Colonial Williamsburg longrifle for say $20,000 and a 6-10 year back-order, but most "get by" with something far "less."

But I would say the presence or absence of the "best" is reflective of what segment or community one personally chooses to play at on the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm either individually or sometimes more importantly on a unit basis.
Most times, the "best" is what works for the lad's Mental Picture even if it is
the Pakistani "reenactor special" where one can get cap, shirt, blouse, trousers, shoes, haversack, and leather accoutrements all for say $200 because it enables them to play at the level they want to play at (and their unit allows them to play at in terms of miminum enforced unit standards).

Where this can dicey, if not in fact proving the point, is when new and gently used "accurate" or "authentic" Premium maker wares can be found on Civil War boards for the same money or even less money than the run-of-the-mill vendor or "Mainstream Sutler" sells for new. (I have sold Daley and Sekela items for less than I could have replaced them for from "Sutler Joe's."

So, IMHO it is not always about the cost of items if the "best" can be had for the same or even less than the "less best" wares.
And sometimes a lad with the desire and financial ability to get the "best" will not because it may put him at political or even social odds with his unit mates kitted out in Pakistani or Indian wares.

Others' mileage will vary...

CHS
Heretic

[Pvt. Sweetey]

I agree sir, 100%

Only thing though is that young soldiers such as myself cannot afford the totally authentic $100 trousers or the $200 jackets, thats simply out of price range. Some of us don't have jobs. I do have a job but it brings in about only $80 over the summer. Parents that dont reenact are not going to buy the clothing for them if its expensive or if its the kid's responsibility. What I think the most authentic stuff that beats the expensive stuff is simply that which is for sale on the forum. It has been used, its cheap, and sometimes its from name-brand suppliers. I dont think Regimental Quartermaster can make them look worn. Yes I see your point of view and I would definately buy 101%accurate clothing, but for newbies (such as myself) and people with low-income jobs, I think the most authentic reenactor apparel is right here on the "for sale" thread.

Just my 2 cents

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Lack of financial resources is not an adequate excuse for lack of authenticity, as there are many things you can do cheaply or completely for free to fix up your kit, and attitude is totally free. You can have the majority of your kit come straight from Pakistan and still fit in at some of the most history-heavy events, if you do small corrections and come ready to be a part of the team. I know this, as several of my best pards in this hobby who didn't have the money, or the right mentors, were welcomed with open arms by the ever dreaded "progressives" at events over the years, because they were willing to learn and pitched in like soldiers. Over the years they've been able to replace parts of their kit with better researched and constructed items, but not all, but what they haven't been able to buy, they've fixed up themselves. Things like canteen covers, buttons and buttonholes, cartridge construction, not wearing excessive brass and insignia (unless appropriate to a given scenario or unit), and not having the need to bring everything to the event in a 15 foot pull behind trailer are all things that cost little but brings folks alot closer to an authentic experience.

[tompritchett]

[deletion - THP; political],

Gentlemen, if you see a political statement in a post, report it via an Alert rather than respond to it. I don't always catch everything as I scan through the posts and an Alert will help me find it. However, if you respond to it, you will also get your response deleted.

[Tiger_rifles]

Lack of financial resources is not an adequate excuse for lack of authenticity, as there are many things you can do cheaply or completely for free to fix up your kit, and attitude is totally free.

Well stated Sir, That puts it right in a nut shell!

[Poor Private]

Personally I have this thing about wearing another mans clothes, I don't care how authentic or cheap. I will buy new clothes only. Accroutroments are different. It's not next to my skin. It would be like sucking on someone elses pipe. Same with wearing someone else shoes. I don't want his athletes foot, or toe rot.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

One exchanges far more on door knobs, especially rest room doors, faucets, and towel racks- and on money.

;) :)

My 22 year old nephew has a thing about different food items not touching on his dinner plate.

CHS

[baker36]

Gentlemen (& Ladies),

I first want to warn that these are my personal opinions/observations and not to pick on anyone.

For the past 6 or 7 years, I have come across a phenomenon in re-enacting. There is always someone who complains that the authentic stuff is too expensive, out of price ranges, etc.

I know what it feels like to want that special something and not be able to afford it right off the bat. With the current economic crap that has been happening[deletion - THP; political], I don't have money to spend like I used to. Will that stop me? No. Why? Because I'll save up to buy what I want.

AHHHH ha!!! :idea:

Why doesn't anybody adhere to that idea, anymore? Saving up for something that you really want. I mean, we do just that to buy engagement rings, Christmas gifts, cars, modern clothes... You name it.

Now, you may get mad and say to yourself that you don't have the money to go all out and buy everything that is required to have an authentic impression. I'm definitely not saying you should. I didn't. ****, if I had that kind of money, I would outfit an entire company, just because I could! :mrgreen:

Take your time. Make yourself a list of things you want. Buy something if not once a month, then once every few months. Worst case, once a year. But if you are serious about this hobby; if you do Living Histories; if you talk to anyone and show them your stuff... get informed. You may be what some would call a farb.

Before you get Pop's shotgun and light torches, let me explain...

If you say to yourself, "I DO take this hobby seriously" or something of the sort, then you are on the right path. ****, you are reading this. You are part of a forum, which is basically a way for all of us to share our info. Some will consider this a way to get more involved or just use this as a tool for more information. (Some are just mean ol' bastards who want to put other people down, but "Don't bother bout him, he's just ignorant." ;) )

Each person in this hobby is part of the whole. We all agree that we do this for the public/ourselves/honor an ancestor or what have you. Our knowledge has grown, authentic stuff is more readily available than it was in the 80's or 90's, and the number of reenactors is near an all-time low. The odds are that within another 5-10 years, we should have about 75% of reenactors in better stuff.

Those of you who will argue and say that "my stuff is good enough - it's blue or it's gray" need a serious wake up call. Do you take pride in what you do in everyday life? If so, then you should be taking pride in your impression.

It comes down to this: If you know your stuff is wrong and you keep denying it, then you should maybe reconsider being in this hobby. You can make stuff to cut costs. I mean, we are surrounded by great patterns and great originals just waiting to be copied. Why keep denying yourself the satisfaction of knowing you actually LOOK like a soldier/civilian?

It is your DUTY, it is your RESPONSIBILITY and it's downright disrespectful to the original cast that you may be wearing crap. You owe it to yourself and to their memory.

Save your pennies, save your dollars, buy authentic... everything else is a lie. So, don't be a liar. ;)

It's not about being hardkewl - it's about being correct.

(Sorry for the ramble...)

Sincerely,

I agree completly with u im 13 and dont have a job cause im to young but i try to save and get money any way i can cause i have by a 1853 enfield here pretty soon

[Blair]

Master Ethan,

I applaud you young Sir!
Take your time and find yourself a good mentor.
Blair Taylor

[baker36]

Master Ethan,

I applaud you young Sir!
Take your time and find yourself a good mentor.
Blair Taylor

Thank u very much sir

I already have a great mentor he used to do all kinds af reeactments.he is my brother brandon

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

And beware of the False Economy of buying twice...

IMHO, yes, many times we all set the "limits" for what we want to spend that will enable use to play the game as we want (or know how) to play it.
And some times, at the end of some lad's months, there are physically more bills than dollars to pay them. Even when it comes down to food, lights, and heat for himself and his family.
No child should go to be hungry so that their father can have a so-called "Authentic" coat versus a "Farb" coat.

But there is also the False Economy of buying twice. Many lads will buy the $100 Pakistani coat because it is not the $200 Premium Maker coat. But for some, they find that the Pakistani coat was not actually $100 but rather $300. The $100 initial purchase, followed by another $200 purchase when the lad finds that he wants to replace it as "farby" in a month or three.

And as shared'.. there is always working toward The Goal by asking for birthday and Christmas presents that are CW related rather than the newest X Box or Wi game. (But I would focus on non-size related kit that a young growing lad may find too small to wear in a year or five.)
(Although I know several lads were passionate about the Rev War, or Civil War, or WWi, or WWII at 12, 14, or 16, and then were slain by cars, clothes, and girls by 16, 18, or 20... ;) )

Sorry for the typo I cannot go back and correct. "Food" not "foot."

CHS

[tompritchett]

Sorry for the typo I cannot go back and correct. "Food" not "foot."

But I can and now have. I just wanted to be sure before making such an edit.

[Guy Gane III]

The below picture is what I was talking about, mainly.