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MBond057
01-02-2009, 11:38 PM
Wal-Mart, Historians Battle Over Building Store Near Civil War Site

Friday , January 02, 2009

LOCUST GROVE, Va.
Wal-Mart wants to build a Supercenter within a cannonshot of where Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant first fought, a proposal that has preservationists rallying to protect the key Civil War site.

A who's who of historians including filmmaker Ken Burns and Pulitzer Prize winner David McCullough sent a letter last month to H. Lee Scott, president and CEO of Wal-Mart Stores Inc., urging the company to build somewhere farther from the Wilderness Battlefield.

"The Wilderness is an indelible part of our history, its very ground hallowed by the American blood spilled there, and it cannot be moved," said the letter from 253 scholars and others.

Wal-Mart and its supporters point out that the 138,000-square-foot store would be right behind a bank and a small strip mall, a full mile from entrance to the site of the 1864 clash that left thousands dead and hastened the war's end.

Local leaders also want the $500,000 in tax revenue they estimate the big box store will generate for rural Orange County, a gradually growing area about 60 miles southwest of Washington.

"In these economic times, the fact that Wal-Mart wants to come into the county is an economic plus," said R. Mark Johnson, a tire shop owner and chairman of the county's board of supervisors. "This is hardly pristine wilderness we're talking about."

Grant's Union troops were headed to Richmond on May 4, 1864, when they confronted Lee's Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. The Battle of the Wilderness involved more than 100,000 Union troops and 61,000 Confederates. The fighting, according to National Park Service estimates, left more than 4,000 dead and 20,000 wounded.

Some 2,700 acres of the Wilderness Battlefield are protected as part of the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park.

Preservationists regularly square off against developers in Virginia, where much of the Civil War was fought.
This dispute, however, has stirred an outcry similar to the one in 1994 over The Walt Disney Co.'s plans to build a $650 million theme park within miles of the Manassas Battlefield. The entertainment giant bowed to public pressure and abandoned the project.

Bentonville, Ark.-based Wal-Mart, which opened nearly 200 stores in the U.S. in 2007, said it studied a lengthy list of sites in Orange County before settling on the spot near the battlefield and its gentle hills dissected by neat footpaths.

"We recognize the significance of the Wilderness Battlefield, but we are not building on the battlefield," said Keith Morris, a spokesman for the world's largest retailer.
Preservationists argue the store site is still significant because it was used as a staging area by Union troops.

brown30741
01-02-2009, 11:47 PM
Is that the article that ran in the Atlanta Journal Constitution today?
http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...ge_tab_newstab

indguard
01-03-2009, 10:32 AM
I'm not seeing it. This Wal-Mart is a mile away and NOT on any battlefield area (even any battlefield area not already preserved as it was supposedly a "staging area" not battlefield).

Could someone make a better case for me than the preservationists made? Looks to me that they did not make a case.

WTH
The PrivatePropertyRules mess

bob 125th nysvi
01-03-2009, 11:23 AM
I usually agree but I'm with him on this one.

How far away is "far enough"? For some people not even in the same county.

The proposed site is on the far side of already existing commercial development. If it was pushing the commercial zone closer I might agree with you.

And quite honestly we can NOT preserve every inch of ground that saw some kind of combat from the French and Indian war onward east of the Mississippi. Otherwise we might as well just pick up and move everything west of the Miss. Heck the largest battle of the Revolution (the Battle of Long Island) long ago disappeared under development. The reason for this is that these battles were not fought in some far off desert or tundra they were fought near objectives worth having. We have almost 10 times as many people in the US as we had 140 years ago and funny thing is they all want to live near spots that were desirable 140 years ago.

And in this case we aren't even preserving existing ground.

I'd suggest we save the bullets for something that really is endangered, some spot that hasn't been developed that is in private hands. We can't afford the tag of "crying wolf" on every instance. We will not only lose but start to be labeled as nuts. And nuts don't get listened too.

tompritchett
01-03-2009, 01:43 PM
I think that more information on this issue can be found in the following thread:
http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9814&highlight=walmart

I am also moving this thread down to the Preservation Conference.

32nd iowa val
01-03-2009, 03:05 PM
wal-mart has no right to build over a part of american history

Daniel

32nd Iowa Voleenter Regiment

Swag
01-03-2009, 03:32 PM
Personally I think all, and I mean ALL, Wal-marts should be destroyed. Not only do they threaten our American heritage, but they have destroyed the American small business; with Wal-Mart there is no room for mom and pop. It is stores like Wal-mart that have turned our American society in to a completely consumer ended market. Bluntly put, I think they are Evil. :evil: = Wal-Mart

Busterbuttonboy
01-03-2009, 05:20 PM
"I'm not seeing it. This Wal-Mart is a mile away and NOT on any battlefield area ...." The PrivatePropertyRules mess-

First off battlefields are the places were men fought and died, nothing new there. Yes this site is about a 1/2 mile from the centers of combat. However the reason the battle took place where it did was because of the infastructure, terrain, and judgements made behind the lines and prior to the shots. Any historian who is able to tie events to the ground, as well as any good survey of an existing battlefield will consider these aspects, which obviously typcially overlooked. For example the American Battlefield Protection Program, as well as the CWPT now includes routes of approach and retreat in their surveys, grants, etc. While I will conceed that yes when given the choice between key engagement property or non contact property there is a clear choice.

Secondly, if you are to say that your not seeing it, it may be becuase you have not visited or toured the greater Fredericksburg region. However googling, Salem Church battlefield will provide some silent testimony. The sites location not its mileage is the issue. In may when my non-profit wrote the letter regarding Orange Counties big box ordinance we cited our displeasure with Wal-mart due to the volume and potential impacts it would bring. It should not be shocking to you, when I say that Wal-mart brings other businesses with it, including pad sites of the same old Olive Garden and Target. This increase in businesses and patronage will bring new stresses to the roads and instructure, will lower the roads level of service, and extensions, improvements, and future development will follow. This is not and over exageration but the truth and fact which can be seen all over the country.

If you are unable to see why any major large, big box or extended commerical development in that region will impact directly and indirectly the Wilderness Battlefield you are blind.

While development and progress is inveitable, there are smart choices that need to be made by planners, elected boards and preservationists. Currently there are a number of Wal-marts within a 10 mile radius of that site. There are a number of older grey,aka empty industrial sites in Gordonsville, Culpeper, and Orange, however that interesection for them yeilds the most potential, not through retail sales but through the possibility of resale in land to future commericial establishments.

Most Respectfully
Drew Gruber

josie wales
01-03-2009, 07:06 PM
BBB, Thanks for your continued efforts to preserve our American Heritage....folks have also forgotten our efforts to block the inevitable connector road from Routes 3 and 20 to Interstate-95 that will follow quickly.....how much more hallowed ground will be dug up and paved over ? For over 10 years NPS, preservation groups and concerned private citizens have been speaking out to the local Boards of Supervisors, developers and Legislators and are still blocking this travesty connector road to China. Never give in on this one America......never !!

Poor Private
01-03-2009, 09:41 PM
Well the way I see it is..... If you don't like it buy the property yourself. If we treid to secure every battlefield from encrouchment 1/2 the country would be 1 national park. Name someplace that somekind of battle didn't have a fight Indians, French, British, Us against Us. heck I better give up my land here in Michigan because some indians fought some settlers over it.
You don't like Wally World then don't go there. Witht them the pocket book rules..... No customers no store simple as that. Be smart and wise and not give a knee jerk reaction.

reb64
01-04-2009, 08:42 PM
I usually agree but I'm with him on this one.

How far away is "far enough"? For some people not even in the same county.

no big deal, bring back the casino! just kidding, look this fight to kill itl is sponsored by the cwpt. After all they do for preservation, if they feel strong enough against it, we should support them. enough walmarts and cheap chinese junk anyways.

bob 125th nysvi
01-05-2009, 10:43 PM
Personally I think all, and I mean ALL, Wal-marts should be destroyed. Not only do they threaten our American heritage, but they have destroyed the American small business; with Wal-Mart there is no room for mom and pop. It is stores like Wal-mart that have turned our American society in to a completely consumer ended market. Bluntly put, I think they are Evil. :evil: = Wal-Mart

the consumer does. By choosing to shop at Wal-Mart and to not continuing to shop at the "local" vendors.

Wal-Mart can loose at the game if local buyers remain loyal to local sellers. I know because I've been involved in one of those scenarios.

When they opened the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Cobleskill NY they put a 'farm department' into it. It supplied things such as fencing, animal feed etc. Made sense Schoharie County is very rural (Cobleskill is the biggest town with about 3,500 residents) county population is about 32K and the local economy is VERY agriculturally based. So it made sense for Wal-Mart to try.

Well none of us (I own a horse farm) who were in the agricultural business used Wal-Mart we stuck with our usual suppliers and 6 months after opening the store they closed the farm department.

It is consumers who put local businesses out of business not wal-Mart. All Wal-Mart does is provide competition (you know the whole evil Capitalism thing), it is the consumer who decides who wins.

bob 125th nysvi
01-05-2009, 10:51 PM
no big deal, bring back the casino! just kidding, look this fight to kill itl is sponsored by the cwpt. After all they do for preservation, if they feel strong enough against it, we should support them. enough walmarts and cheap chinese junk anyways.

the CWPT my unit provides $1,000 a year directly to the CWPT to do with what they please while we do other preservation efforts. I have also personally contributed in the past.

However I also don't vote party line. You want my vote don't wave a flag, convince me.

To me this is a no brainer we are talking about building in an area that already has substantial commercial development. And Wal-Mart is not moving closer to the battlefield there is pre-existing commercial development between their site and the park. I'm not being convinced. Maybe if it was moving closer to the park than already existing commercial development I could buy in. To me this just looks like Wal-Mart bashing. Which is ok by me just don't hide behind preservation come out and say "We don't want Wal-Mart, end of conversation." Would everybody feel better if it was Home Depot or Lowes?

dustyswb
01-05-2009, 11:07 PM
The "pre-existing" commercial development currently at the intersection that WalMart wants to come into is a gas station, McDonald's, and I believe a 7 Eleven.

The concern is increased traffic around the intersection, possibly calling for the widening of Rte 20, which goes right through the Wilderness battlefield. This is just another case of developers wanting to put their businesses at a "major" intersection.

There was a reason these battles took place where they did. The need for access is the same today as it was then.

reb64
01-06-2009, 08:31 PM
the CWPT my unit provides $1,000 a year directly to the CWPT to do with what they please while we do other preservation efforts. I have also personally contributed in the past.

However I also don't vote party line. You want my vote don't wave a flag, convince me.



This group does so much fighting for preservation, as if they were front line troops and we were the citizens, so I say support our troops,

bob 125th nysvi
01-06-2009, 10:39 PM
The "pre-existing" commercial development currently at the intersection that WalMart wants to come into is a gas station, McDonald's, and I believe a 7 Eleven.

The concern is increased traffic around the intersection, possibly calling for the widening of Rte 20, which goes right through the Wilderness battlefield. This is just another case of developers wanting to put their businesses at a "major" intersection.

There was a reason these battles took place where they did. The need for access is the same today as it was then.

Because a lot of info being thrown around here is conjectural.

For example the land is being described as a mile "north" of the NPS land above the junction of VA Rtes 3 & 20 and west of Wilderness Run. People are variously describing the existing commercial development as including a gas station, McDonald's, a 7-11 (all archetectural wonders) and a bank.

If I look at the approximate area (using Yahoo maps and Google Earth) I see several golf courses a fair amount of tract housing, a couple of ritzy developments, several schools, town homes, what could be might light industrial facilities or maybe retail or professional spaces.

Not suburban but not exactly pristine either here.

And as far as road development is concerned Rte 20 does not "bisect" the NPS battlefield as it appears that about 90-95% is to the south of Rte 20 and the major interstates are to the north and east of both the battlefield and the proposed development (which is between the major access routes and the battlefiled). Increased traffic would generally come from that direction.

It also appears that (from press reports and we all know how reliable those are) the majority of the locals favor the development for access to services, tax and employment opportunities.

To me a MickeyD's or 7-11 closer to the battlefield (and maybe a couple of other things) just invalidates the argument that this thing is intrusive. Particularly if they go ahead with the 200 ft greenspace set back (which if properly designed and forested would prevent you from seeing the development from the park entrance).

Now the infrastructure argument (widening Rte 20) is a little bit more persuasive but what if they don't widen 20 where it contacts the park?

Guys I'm still not onboard here. Maybe if the CWPT was offering to buy the land as an alternative I'd find the uproar more ameniable but what I am seeing is us trying to tell someone they can't do with their property what they appear to be legally allowed to do.

And for all you "states rights" guys you should philosophically be deferring to the local level of government. I mean us 'we want to rule everything' Yankees might be all for taking away local rights but you guys shouldn't.

bob 125th nysvi
01-06-2009, 10:41 PM
This group does so much fighting for preservation, as if they were front line troops and we were the citizens, so I say support our troops,

I view everybody with an agenda as akin to politicians (even if I agree with them) not to the people who lay their lives on the line to protect us.

THOSE people deserve our unqualified support.

Everybody else has to earn it.

Regular DOC
01-07-2009, 06:54 PM
Personally I think all, and I mean ALL, Wal-marts should be destroyed. Not only do they threaten our American heritage, but they have destroyed the American small business; with Wal-Mart there is no room for mom and pop. It is stores like Wal-mart that have turned our American society in to a completely consumer ended market. Bluntly put, I think they are Evil. :evil: = Wal-Mart


Wow so how is that shirt the one or two you own that you got at the tailor holding out. How about the one pair of shoes you had made at the cobler. By your logic we should go back to tailors and coblers. I love Wal-mart why cause the revolutionized a business model advancing how the retail business is done. I love their just in time inventory measures. Like Marshal Fields did then K-Mart and now wal-mart. 50 years or so from now someone will outdo wal-mart. It is called the future. Business that can adapt survive those that don't die. Ask the hundreds of people employed in Joliet Illinois who had no jobs before Wal-Mart built there if they want to see the few mom and pop stores still around and not Wal Mart.:roll:

Regular DOC
01-07-2009, 06:59 PM
Folks let us put this into perspective. It was a staging area. If we were to preserve every staging area, camp site, picket post, hospital and every local the army marched through DC would have no building newer the 1861. We have to pick and choose our battles folks. I have been there the local is pretty developed already a Wal-mart isn't going to mean the destruction of the NPS at the Wilderness.

reb64
01-07-2009, 07:37 PM
Folks let us put this into perspective. It was a staging area. If we were to preserve every staging area, camp site, picket post, hospital and every local the army marched through DC would have no building newer the 1861. We have to pick and choose our battles folks. I have been there the local is pretty developed already a Wal-mart isn't going to mean the destruction of the NPS at the Wilderness.

as most of the gettysburg battlefield is staging area lets put condos on it, also ft monroe va had little action so lets raise it. you cant go back once things are done

reb64
01-07-2009, 07:41 PM
I view everybody with an agenda as akin to politicians (even if I agree with them) not to the people who lay their lives on the line to protect us.

THOSE people deserve our unqualified support.

Everybody else has to earn it.


Im sensing old biases I learned as a kid. if its a union victory then its sacred ground, if its a cs one then its just a skirmish or staging area, hardly worth saving.

Regular DOC
01-07-2009, 09:00 PM
as most of the gettysburg battlefield is staging area lets put condos on it, also ft monroe va had little action so lets raise it. you cant go back once things are done



One Fortress Monroe has signifigance outside of it's action and Gettysburg has been preserved already. And you guys seem to only care about the battlefield there you all could care less about where the hospitals were. This area however is developed already. Again pick your battles.

dustyswb
01-07-2009, 11:28 PM
And as far as road development is concerned Rte 20 does not "bisect" the NPS battlefield as it appears that about 90-95% is to the south of Rte 20 and the major interstates are to the north and east of both the battlefield and the proposed development (which is between the major access routes and the battlefiled). Increased traffic would generally come from that direction.

Bob, check out this link http://www.civilwar.org/walmart08/maps/index.htm

It has maps and satellite pictures to show the location.

There has been a movement for several years to widen Rte 20 from Orange to the intersection even before the WalMart business. Again, my argument isn't against all development in the area, it is about "smart" development. Large box development will increase auto traffic, which, IMO, is the major threat to the area.

Picket Post
01-08-2009, 12:26 PM
These battles against development always come too late. This battel should have been fought when the County Commissioners or Supervisors were reviewing the zoning. This land is currently zoned for commercial use and 2/3ds of the battle has already been lost. Even if Walmart gives up on this, you will still face other commercial proposals.

Bad thing about box stores are that they encourage other commercial developments around them.

Busterbuttonboy
02-07-2009, 02:19 AM
Mike is very right, the first words of this came out over one year ago. In April and May the Orange County BOS met to discuss big box ordinances. This was the time and place for people to get involved to be proactive and potentially keep any development there to a smaller scale.

"This area however is developed already." Regular DOC. This is incorrect. This development will be the beginnings of just a long series of pad sites, road widenings, and eventually the build out of that area.

Drew Gruber

Regular DOC
03-06-2009, 10:46 AM
"This area however is developed already." Regular DOC. This is incorrect. This development will be the beginnings of just a long series of pad sites, road widenings, and eventually the build out of that area.

Drew Gruber


We cannot expect people to just let land sit undeveloped and making no money meanwhile paying property tax upon the same property. We need to find a dollar sign motivation for them. I donate money for the cause when I can and write my Reps in the Capital to fund more money to buy up more land. But is that enough? Probably not. If we want people to not develope the land we have to give them a benefit for not doing it. Maybe designating the zone property tax free if the owners adhere to an NPS standard.

bob 125th nysvi
03-08-2009, 10:53 AM
Im sensing old biases I learned as a kid. if its a union victory then its sacred ground, if its a cs one then its just a skirmish or staging area, hardly worth saving.

you don't know me at all.

It's just I'm enough of a historian to understand on virtually ever square foot of this country "history" happened. Some of it big some of it little, some important to us some important to others.

But none of it important enough to deny a person the right to do with their property, inside the boundries of the law, what they wish to do with it.

If people don't want a wal-Mart there then pony up the money and buy the land, I'm SURE the owner would accept a better offer.

Bythe way if they wanted to put up a Wal-Mart in Gettysburg on private land I wouldn't protest that either. Oh wait they already have one.

bob 125th nysvi
03-08-2009, 11:08 AM
Bob, check out this link http://www.civilwar.org/walmart08/maps/index.htm

It has maps and satellite pictures to show the location.

There has been a movement for several years to widen Rte 20 from Orange to the intersection even before the WalMart business. Again, my argument isn't against all development in the area, it is about "smart" development. Large box development will increase auto traffic, which, IMO, is the major threat to the area.

I did check out the area via satellite and Yahoo/Mapquest.

Hey I grew up on Long Island and the farm country all around me dissappeared into developments and stripmalls and bigbox stores. It was shame and I'm for smart development too.

But I also know that because they sold the land, the old farmers who had no retirement plan and no income or skills except those related to farming were able to live out their days in the home they were born in, in relative comfort and maybe even leave something to their kids BECAUSE they sold the land that had been in their family for hundreds of years. And it wasn't an easy decision. But when faced with a declining life style, and having no option to better it and maybe facing having to live out their lives in a county nursing home, I don't begrudge them their choice even though it cost me the woods and fields I grew up in as a kid.

Now that may not be the case here, who knows maybe a wealthy developer unpaid for it from some son of a farmer who never wanted to see the old place again. I don't care. What I want to do is avoid making the slope allowing government (or anybody) to seize private property any more steep than it already is.

To paraphrase the anti-Nazi doctor: "When they protested the man siding his house, I did not speak up. When they protested the man planting the tree (and did you know in some communities in Colorado it is illegal to plant a tree because you might obstruct someone's view of the mountains?), I did not speak up. When they protested the woman hanging her laundry outside, I did not speak up. When they protested the merchant building his store, I did not speak up. And when they protested what I wanted to do, there was no one left to speak up for me."

The residents of the area have the right to set their own land use policies. If a majority decide, with in the exiisting laws, that they don't want it fine, its their choice go for it.

But anybody outside the district is just blowing smoke for their own pet cause.

There is a simple and legal way to prevent Wal-Mart from going in, buy the land. As we used to say in the old country - put up or shut up.

And I'm not talking about denying anyone their right to free speech, I am saying actions speak louder than words.

Busterbuttonboy
03-09-2009, 06:45 PM
All
This issue isnt specifically about that particular tract of land. Its about a precedent, its about the infill that will occur after that development, including extensions to the road network, etc.
Drew Gruber

bob 125th nysvi
03-09-2009, 09:28 PM
All
This issue isnt specifically about that particular tract of land. Its about a precedent, its about the infill that will occur after that development, including extensions to the road network, etc.
Drew Gruber

it is about a piece of private property.

Look at the aerial photos of the area. Developments and condos galore. So this peice doesn't go for a Wal-Mart and goes for 300 housing units instead. Is that going to make the traffic better?

Let's face facts, the LOCALS want a better road BECAUSE traffic is already increased to the point where they are unhappy with Rte 20. So the issue is not the infrastructure either.

If we really want to fight for something worthwhile we need to fight the battle that Rte 20 as it borders the battlefield can not be expanded by seizing any NPS land. Not chew up political capital on fighting a Wal-Mart a mile away.

The development horse is already way out of the barn.

Busterbuttonboy
05-18-2009, 11:11 AM
The public meeting will be this
Thursday May 21st
7:00PM Thursday, May 21st
Prospect Middle School

Busterbuttonboy
05-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Hope to see some of you there tomorrow night.

Steve Blancard
05-21-2009, 06:32 AM
Article in today's Fredericksburg paper says the Virginia Department of Historic Resources is weighing in saying some of the planning commission's conclusions are wrong. They go on to say "Please be advised that the proposed Wal-Mart site is located entirely within the boundaries of the Wilderness Battlefield,".

Coming from the Virginia Department of Historic Resources, this is one of the most powerful statement yet in support of preserving the battlefield.

There is a public hearing tonight, I expect there will be a lively discussion.

Busterbuttonboy
05-22-2009, 10:14 AM
There were very few people who Spoke against the Wal-mart and were facts driven. Obviously the more participation the better but it appeared that the sides were evenly matched in numbers. I believe the few of us who drove up expected to see ALOT more people out. A very light turnout by the preservation community, and there appeared to be a even smaller presence by the living history community.

Steve Blancard
05-22-2009, 05:56 PM
From today's paper:

"About 200 people turned out for the Orange County Planning Commission hearing on a special-use permit to build the Supercenter off State Route 3. A total of 73 people spoke, with opponents outnumbering supporters about 2-to-1."

The full article:
http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/052009/05222009/468225

Bitter_Bierce
05-24-2009, 04:58 PM
... and there appeared to be a even smaller presence by the living history community. I fail to see what earthly good the presence of uniformed reenactors would have done other than look like a bunch of idiots in funny clothing. Might as well come wearing chainmail... at least no one has seen that at a hearing about a Civil War battlefield before. It might just make a real impression.

http://www.diyhappy.com/wp-content/images/Chainmail!.jpg
SAVE YON BATTLEFIELD FROM YE SHERIFF OF WAL-MARTHAM.

USMRR
05-24-2009, 05:24 PM
I'll make a prediction:

In this sluggish economy Wal-Fart will get to build whatever they want, wherever they want. After all, the "people" need lots of meaningless low-paying jobs. (If a high-tech research facility was going in there, nobody would be complaining.)

After Wal-Fart has deficated tons of concrete on the land and the locals begin their daily migrations to suck up that one-stop shopping, increased traffic will force the widening of Rt. 20 and Saunders field will be gutted like a fish.

The Wilderness Battefield will be ruined for all time.

Might as well have already happened.

End of #$&% story.

Bloated_Corpse
05-24-2009, 05:42 PM
I fail to see what earthly good the presence of uniformed reenactors would have done other than look like a bunch of idiots in funny clothing. Agree. Better to show up wearing business attire and be as polished looking as the developer's lawyers than run the risk of being perceived as members of a fringe group with funny dresssing habits. The only appropirate place to wear CW clothing is at a CW event... and a county hearing is not a CW event even if the subject impacts a CW battlefield.

Busterbuttonboy
05-25-2009, 07:37 AM
"I fail to see what earthly good the presence of uniformed reenactors would have done"
Would have hurt the cause even further than not attending.

hiplainsyank
05-27-2009, 11:37 AM
Wow so how is that shirt the one or two you own that you got at the tailor holding out. How about the one pair of shoes you had made at the cobler. By your logic we should go back to tailors and coblers. I love Wal-mart why cause the revolutionized a business model advancing how the retail business is done. I love their just in time inventory measures. Like Marshal Fields did then K-Mart and now wal-mart. 50 years or so from now someone will outdo wal-mart. It is called the future. Business that can adapt survive those that don't die. Ask the hundreds of people employed in Joliet Illinois who had no jobs before Wal-Mart built there if they want to see the few mom and pop stores still around and not Wal Mart.:roll:

Yea, that shirt you got was made by some kid in slave labor conditions, and those shoes by a young woman forced to provide sexual favors to her boss. Wal Mart drove down wages around the world just so we can have cheap things out the wazoo. They have a price to them, however, that we are not willing yet to admit.

And those people in Joliet get wages that will enable most of them to continue to live in poverty, with a goodly percentage of them receiving government benefits, and no health care to speak of. Yep, I bet those people in Joliet are just overjoyed with those jobs! And nearly all of that money the people of Joliet spend at wally world goes straight out of the community, compared with locally owned stores and even other chains, where the money circulates many times around the community.

And the down town is no a gutted, empty hulk which attracts nothing much but drugs, gangs, and crime more than businesses that can stand on their feet.

Lived in a town in KS, where before small town super wally world came in, there were two grocery stores and two discount stores. In three years there was only wally world. No competition, fewer jobs overall and less money staying in the community. All for poorly made goods made under slave labor conditions. Woo-hoo!

Yep, wally world is GREAT!!!!!!

And if you haven't been to the area, there are so many shopping areas close by it's not even funny. And it is true, 20, right through Saunders Field, really one of the two most important places in the battle, will be gone for road-widening projects.

Bitter_Bierce
05-29-2009, 08:07 AM
"I fail to see what earthly good the presence of uniformed reenactors would have done"
Would have hurt the cause even further than not attending.

OK, then put your convictions where your uniform is and do something other than play dress-up. Why don't you go stand out on Rt. 20 in CW uniform each weekend while holding a sign saying "Don't WalMart the Wilderness"? And get the media to come out and film you doing so. That'll be your fifteen minutes of fame. At least you would be in the proper context, on a CW battlefield and reaching thousands of people, instead of in a modern conference room parading around for a handful of stiffs.

ThumbStall
06-07-2009, 09:31 AM
OK, then put your convictions where your uniform is and do something other than play dress-up. Why don't you go stand out on Rt. 20 in CW uniform each weekend while holding a sign saying "Don't WalMart the Wilderness"? And get the media to come out and film you doing so. That'll be your fifteen minutes of fame. At least you would be in the proper context, on a CW battlefield and reaching thousands of people, instead of in a modern conference room parading around for a handful of stiffs.

Actually, this sounds like a good idea. Make more of an impact if you could get a bunch of reenactors walking down the shoulder of Rt. 20. 25.... 50.... 100.... that would get Wal-Mart's attention.

But... nobody ain't never gonna get reenactors to turn out in any kind of numbers if they ain't got powder to burn.

Busterbuttonboy
06-07-2009, 09:49 AM
Harrison
You are very right. However the venue time and place for our community to show up would have been the public meeting. Very very very few of us where there.

USMRR
06-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Harrison
You are very right. However the venue time and place for our community to show up would have been the public meeting. Very very very few of us where there.

Name one public meeting where the presence of uniformed reenactors swayed the decision of a county board of supervisors in favor of preservation.

Big developer bucks trumps "those people in funny clothes" every time.

Wear a suit and tie to the meeting and save the smelly wool for the field.

Civil War ties are authorized:

http://www.republicanmarket.com/img/prod/l/1016.jpg

Busterbuttonboy
06-10-2009, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Busterbuttonboy View Post
"I fail to see what earthly good the presence of uniformed reenactors would have done"
Would have hurt the cause even further than not attending.

"OK, then put your convictions where your uniform is and do something other than play dress-up. " You obviously have not read the thread either.

For those of us who dont read the forum in its entirety: No uniformed reenactors at public meetings are never a good idea. Few reenactors (in normal clothing) were there. Its a shame we can go out and "try" being a civil war soldier and yet find it inconvenient to go to bat for the battlefields, places and men who we try to mimic.

Normally I dont reply to ignorant postings, however I feel the need to clarify the situation.

Busterbuttonboy
06-15-2009, 10:31 AM
http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/062009/06112009/472644

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/062009/06102009/472197

Updates.

Bitter_Bierce
06-16-2009, 06:45 PM
Allow me to clarify someting. I was out stumping for preservation in Northern Virginia in the late 80's when the current battlefield preservation movement was in its infancy. I wore the wool to county board meetings for the Obliteration of Ox Hill (Chantilly), the Malling of Manassas, the Townhousing of Bristoe Station, the Fawn-Laking of the Wilderness and others. I did my part long long ago.

And I saw more than one farb bozo take the podium and embarrass themselves and make a laughing stock of the entire CW community. I saw the one normally reserved and gentlemanly preservationist go ballistic once (in private of course) about what one such uniformed numbskull said at a re-zoning hearing that made reenactors and preservationists look like we were all one step below cromagnum man.

I was there the day the NPS handled over Longstreet Drive to the Fawn Lake developers. I watched in agony as they built that castle-like brick fortress they call a gate that looms up like a monolith in the heart of the battlefield, right were the 20th Massachucetts (the Harvard Regiment) took a stunning amount of casualties. Their only monument is that gawd-awful gate with the words "Fawn Lake" in big white letters.

And I've watched the amont of traffic and roadside trash steadily increase at the Orange Plank and Brock Road intersection year after year after year as more and more consumer robots move into the area seeking the "good life".

Yeah, I wore the wool to hearings in the past and I saw what little good it did. Indeed, I've seen it cause damage. So I will continue to strongly voice my opposition to such counter-productive sideshow antics in favor of stepping up to the plate and dressed appropriately to do battle in the boardroom.

lincolnsguard
06-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Sending the CWPT some bucks does so much more then posting on an internet board. I herd a rumor the CWPT was getting matching funds at a rate of 30:1. So I made a donation in a friends name last week after I called to confirm that was indeed true. Call 'em up, they take credit cards.

Busterbuttonboy
06-17-2009, 02:51 PM
Clem
"I was there the day the NPS handled over Longstreet Drive to the Fawn Lake developers."
Wish I was there with you, forgot about that one.

The 30 to 1 I beleive is on Cedar Creek

GrumpyDave
06-17-2009, 03:06 PM
That would be correct. I'm not sure what the Wilderness match is but it too is hefty, also being on the CWPT's most endangered list.

tompritchett
06-17-2009, 05:12 PM
Sending the CWPT some bucks does so much more then posting on an internet board.

One easy way to send them bucks is to use GoodSearch as your search engine and seat CWPT as the receipent. Just from my work computer, I have generating $17 this year for CWPT from using GoodSearch for my Internet searching.

Busterbuttonboy
07-04-2009, 09:14 PM
Keep those e-mails going to the Board of Supervisors.

July 2, 2009 12:35 am
Orange County supervisors have scheduled a July 27 public hearing on a proposed Wal-Mart Supercenter in the Wilderness battlefield area.

The hearing will begin at 7 p.m. in the Orange County High School auditorium.

At their meeting Tuesday night, supervisors said they would not vote July 27 on the special-use permit to build the 138,000-square-foot store. They will, however, hold their regularly scheduled second meeting of the month July 28.

Also at Tuesday's meeting, County Attorney Sharon Pan-dak presented a few scenarios for altering the composition of the 10-member Planning Commission. The commission now consists of two members from each of the county's five magisterial districts.

Supervisor Zack Burkett had suggested the reorganization at the board's retreat in early January. He noted that commission Chairman Will Likins was his opponent in the 2007 race for the District 2 board seat, a situation he described as "awkward."

The Board of Supervisors can change the composition of the commission and should do so by ordinance, according to Pandak.

Board Chairman Lee Frame, formerly a Planning Commission member, said he was happy with the makeup of the advisory commission. He noted that having 10 members helps the panel to do more work.

"I like a lot of different views," he said, "but there's more than a little bit of chaos."

Supervisor Mark Johnson said the Planning Commission "is out of step with the board" and takes on issues that cost the county staff time and money.

"They spend a lot of time on things the supervisors aren't interested in," Johnson said. "We wind up with a dysfunctional process when the Planning Commission is doing things the supervisors don't want. If we were on the same page, there would be a better working relationship."

Burkett agreed. "A lot of expense gets chewed up when it's already known how the board [of supervisors] will vote."

At the January retreat, a majority of supervisors--Teel Goodwin, Johnson and Burkett--said they would support Wal-Mart's proposal. The Planning Commission last week recommended approval of the project after holding a public hearing and two additional meetings on the matter.

Goodwin said he was happy with the present makeup of the commission. He appointed both of the members from his district.

But he said he would be concerned about the size of the group if the county needed to be divided into more than five magisterial districts.

Supervisor Teri Pace suggested the commission be reconstituted with seven members--one appointed by each of the five supervisors and two at-large members.

Pandak noted that the easiest thing for supervisors to do would be to dissolve the present commission and start a new one. Frame asked Pandak for more details and noted that there would be more debate after looking at various proposals.

Robin Knepper: 540/972-5701
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...inter_friendly


Again the BOS e-mail addresses are

Chairman R. Mark Johnson
rmj142@yahoo.com

Supervisor Zack Burkett
zburkett@orangecountyva.gov

Supervisor Teel Goodwin
Teel.Goodwin@vabb.com

Vice Chairwoman Teri L. Pace
tpacedist4@aol.com

Supervisor Lee Frame
leeframe@orangecountyva.gov

Steve Blancard
07-06-2009, 02:34 PM
Polite and tactful e-mail sent to the Orange Country BOS. Thanks for providing their e-mail addresses.

gallonhistoricalart
07-08-2009, 10:47 PM
I am so glad that Gettysburg continues to thrive from private places, and hasn't become all corporate. It is an ongoing battle though...

Anne

Busterbuttonboy
08-19-2009, 11:50 AM
From the CWPT e-mailer:


Final Public Hearings on Wilderness Walmart August 20 and 24

As you may have already heard, the final public hearings on the Wilderness Walmart proposal have now been rescheduled for Thursday, August 20, and Monday, August 24.

These hearings represent the last opportunity to tell Orange County that the Wilderness Battlefield is no place for big box sprawl. If you live within driving distance of Orange County, please attend the hearings and urge the county to find another location for Walmarts superstore away from this hallowed battleground.

Planning Commission: August 20 at 7:00 p.m.
Board of Supervisors: August 24 at 6:00 p.m.

CWPT will have an information table set-up one hour before the hearings, and we encourage all who attend to arrive early. Both public hearings will be held in the Orange County High School Auditorium, 201 Selma Road, Orange, Va. Click here for directions and a map of the school.

If you have not already done so, there is also still time to send a letter to Walmart CEO Michael Duke encouraging the company to select an alternate location in Orange County for the proposed store. Let Walmart know in the strongest possible terms that the Wilderness Battlefield is no place for a superstore. Click here to send a letter to Michael Duke.

I hope we can count on your continued support in this fight to protect the Wilderness Battlefield. If you have any questions about the upcoming hearings please feel free to contact me personally at 202-367-1861 ext. 7220.

Thank you,
Brent Laurenz
P.S. For the latest information on the hearings, please visit CWPTs Wilderness Walmart homepage.

Busterbuttonboy
08-21-2009, 08:12 AM
Planners switch Walmart stance
August 21, 2009 12:52 am
BY ROBIN KNEPPER
BY ROBIN KNEPPER

The Orange County Planning Commission reversed itself last night, effectively voting to recommend denial of a plan for a Walmart Supercenter in the Wilderness Battlefield area.

The commission split 4-4 on a motion to recommend approval of JDC Ventures' application for a special-use permit. Because the motion did not pass, it is the same as a denial, County Attorney Sharon Pandak explained to the commissioners.

"It's unfortunate for it to go forward without a clear vote, because it doesn't send a clear message to the Board of Supervisors," she said.

Supervisors will hold their own public hearing on the matter Monday night. They are not bound by the commission's recommendation, and three of the five have said they will vote to approve the permit.

The hearing and vote were the Planning Commission's second this summer. On June 25, it voted 5-4 to recommend approval of the permit, with certain conditions.

Last night's vote means the conditions it wanted will not be sent to the supervisors for consideration after all.

On July 27, just hours before the scheduled Walmart public hearing before the supervisors, county officials were notified that the local weekly newspaper had failed to run one of the two legally required notices for the earlier Planning Commission hearing.

As a result, the Planning Commission public hearing had to be redone, and the hearing before the supervisors was rescheduled.

Last night, commissioners Donald Brooks, Dave Kovarik, Will Likins and Elliot Fox voted to recommend approval. Terry Apperson, Nigel Goodwin, Walter Smith and Tom Bundy voted against.

Commissioners Bill Speiden and Cory Redifer were not present. Speiden voted to recommend approval at the first meeting but was in the hospital last night.

"This will become a traffic-filled commercial city at our eastern gateway," Apperson said in arguing against the project.

Brooks said county residents "are overwhelmingly supportive of Walmart." Smith agreed that residents want a Walmart but said his constituents don't want it at the proposed location.

Almost two-thirds of the 32 speakers at last night's public hearing voiced concern about the proposed 138,000-square-foot store on a 51-acre site a quarter-mile north of the intersection of State Routes 3 and 20 and the Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania National Military Park.

Historic preservationists have mounted a national campaign against the project, which also calls for 98,750 square feet of additional retail development. Opponents say the traffic and road improvements the retail center would bring would damage the Civil War battlefield.

"It could be a wonderful thing if it were two or three miles up the road," Debby Ware of Rapidan told the commission last night.

Supporters of the Walmart proposal say the store will bring needed jobs and tax revenue to the rural county.

"This is our county. We pay the taxes. We need the jobs," said Christine Jones of Unionville. "We need the shopping. Walmart gives good jobs with good benefits. It's a good place to shop and can only add to the tourist business in the county."

The breakdown of comments last night was the same as at the Planning Commission's first public hearing May 21. On that night, two-thirds of the 72 speakers voiced concern.

Most said that while they weren't opposed to a Walmart store, they didn't want it located so close to the Wilderness Battlefield.

Walmart officials have countered that no other commercially zoned and properly configured property with suitable traffic access is available in the area.

Robin Knepper: 540/972-5701
Email: rknepper@earthlink.net

Busterbuttonboy
08-21-2009, 10:57 AM
Stolen from Mike Chapmans post on the Authentic Campaigner. I could not word it any better.

"The Planning Commission as aforementioned are only an advisory body to the Board of Supervisors and the vote is non-binding; the BOS can still go either way.

It is now more critical than ever before that we get a big crowd to Monday’s Board of Supervisors hearing. And CWPT and the Wilderness need your help especially. It appears (and I am not there in person to verify this) that Wal-Mart paid some mounted re-enactors to attend on their behalf. Can you help us spread the word to get folks out in uniform on Monday? I know it’s a haul for just about everyone on this planet to get to Orange, but we can really use the backup. Even people who aren’t comfortable speaking in public will be valued, just their presence sends a real statement. The preservation and historic communities must stand together to help protect the Wilderness.

This is one of those times we really, seriously, desperately need feet on the ground and a show of force to make a statement.

WHAT: Orange County Board of Supervisors Public Hearing on Wal-Mart application
WHEN: August 24 at 6:00 p.m.
WHERE: Orange County High School Auditorium 201 Selma Road, Orange VA

CWPT will have an information table set-up one hour before the hearings, and we encourage all who attend to arrive early. Both public hearings will be held in the Orange County High School Auditorium, 201 Selma Road, Orange, Va. Click here for directions and a map of the school.

www.maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=201+Selma+Rd.,+Orange,+VA+22960&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.572881,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=38.246741,-78.097408&spn=0.008123,0.01929&z=16&iwloc=A


"

- Now is the time for our community, hardcore, mainstream, etc to bind together to protect our common interest.

Busterbuttonboy
08-25-2009, 07:34 AM
Officials OK Walmart near Va. battlefield
August 24, 2009 12:00 am
By STEVE SZKOTAK
Associated Press Writer

ORANGE--Local officials early Tuesday approved a Walmart Supercenter near one of the nation's most important Civil War battlefields, a proposal that had stirred opposition by preservationists and hundreds of historians.

The Orange County Board of Supervisors voted 4-1 to grant the special permit to the world's biggest retailer after a majority of more than 100 speakers said they favored bringing the Walmart to Locust Grove, within a cannonball's shot from the Wilderness Battlefield.

Historians and Civil War buffs are fearful the Walmart store will draw traffic and more commerce to an area within the historic boundaries of the Wilderness, where generals Ulysses S. Grant and Robert E. Lee first met in battle 145 years ago and where 145,000 Union and Confederate soldiers fought and more than 29,000 were killed or injured. One-fourth of the Wilderness is protected.

But they could not sway supervisors, who said they didn't see the threat.

"I cannot see how there will be any visual impact to the Wilderness Battlefield," Supervisor Chairman Lee Frame said, casting a vote for the special use permit the store needs to build. "I think the current proposal ... is the best way to protect the battlefield."

The retailer said construction could begin in a year.

Nearly 400 people crowded into Orange County High School to attend the board's hearing. Some came dressed in period costume, including a dead ringer for Lee, and one speaker ended his remarks with a rendition of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic."

Many residents cited three reasons for supporting the Walmart proposal: jobs, tax revenue and a cheap shopping option for the 32,000 residents of this farming community about 60 miles southwest of Washington.

"I know we've been referred to as ignorant shoppers," said Barbara Wigger. "I feel bad about that but I'll live with it. Let us have our Walmart and let us stop the battle."

Speakers who urged the board to reject the special permit said they were not anti-Walmart, but simply worried about the sanctity of the Wilderness.

"This is a major battlefield," said Charles Seilheimer Jr. "It may not be Gettysburg but it's pretty close. The Civil War experts say this is part of the battlefield. I believe them."

Charles Edge said supervisors should not allow the retailer to build on ground "marked by the blood of the fallen."

"The establishment of a retail chain makes a mockery of that sacrifice," he said.

Supervisor Teri Pace, who cast the lone dissenting vote, suggested an alternative site, and said the county's historic attractions were the key to its economic future.

"This difficult economy will not be solved by Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is only part of the equation," she said.

In a state with more key Civil War battlefields than any other, the company's plan to build near the Wilderness had mobilized historians, preservationists and politicians.

Opponents include 253 historians such as David McCullough and James M. McPherson, filmmaker Ken Burns, actor Robert Duvall, Gov. Timothy M. Kaine, and congressmen from Vermont and Texas, states that lost many men at the Wilderness.

Preservationists could not make the case to the board and many residents said a Walmart would not diminish an area that already is home to two strip malls and about 20 retail shops, including a McDonald's.

Supervisor Mark Johnson, who supported the special permit, berated some members of the preservation community who he said had "twisted the truth" on the historic significance of the site. He argued that history is more than the contours of a battlefield and granite monuments.

"It's the deeds and the lives that our ancestors lived, the sacrifices they made," he said.

Wal-Mart Stores Inc., which has 8,000 stores worldwide and adds about 240 each year, countered that the site is zoned for commercial use and the store will not be within sight of the battlefield's 2,700 protected acres.

The retailer has also said the store will create hundreds of jobs and generate $800,000 in tax revenue for Orange County.

People streamed into the meeting wearing their allegiances on their lapels: the store's signature smiley faces representing store supporters, and green stickers on those seeking a site farther away from the Wilderness Battlefield. A small army of re-enactors and historic interpreters, such as Al Stone of Hinton, W.Va., who represented Lee, spoke against the store.

ThumbStall
08-25-2009, 07:59 AM
Cool. Now I can go buy sweatshop goods made in Asia with more convenience whenever I visit the Wilderness. God bless America.

That capitalism thing isn't working too good is it? There is a world of difference between basic free enterprise and corporate capitalism, but most Americans haven't figured it out yet.

Stand by for the widening of Rt. 20. Four lanes! Woo-hoo! Now, when I hear the siren call of "rollin' back prices" I can leave that sweaty, mosquito infested, dank woods on the battlefield and be in cool air-conditioned environs in three instead of ten minutes.

MLovejoy
08-25-2009, 09:51 AM
Maybe they'll sell some of these swell caps to the tourists!!!

http://www.nanbasports.com/products.php?cat=54

Regular DOC
08-25-2009, 11:58 AM
Cool. Now I can go buy sweatshop goods made in Asia with more convenience whenever I visit the Wilderness. God bless America.

That capitalism thing isn't working too good is it? There is a world of difference between basic free enterprise and corporate capitalism, but most Americans haven't figured it out yet.

Stand by for the widening of Rt. 20. Four lanes! Woo-hoo! Now, when I hear the siren call of "rollin' back prices" I can leave that sweaty, mosquito infested, dank woods on the battlefield and be in cool air-conditioned environs in three instead of ten minutes.

And this attitude folks is why we lose these battles. From all the forum discussions and news articles there was an immeadiate fangs out attitude. This US good Them bad adversarial positions make us look liken the crazy guy who will die on his mountain instead of concerned citizens looking for a mutual solution to the problem. To the locals we look no different then the corporates. Just another set of carpet baggers looking to puff their chests make a stink get our way then go back home to our communities where we have all the commercial developement we want them to not have. How much financial incentive was Wal-Mart given to move? Like giving them the money for the new site surveys and enviromental impact studies required to change a site. What about making up for the revenue losss for the delay in changing locations? How about a tax cut if they did change locals? Nope nothing other then us ranting it was the right thing to do. Where was all the outrage when the area was first zoned commerical? Instead we wait until people purchased the land in good faith they would be able to develope it as any normal commercial land before we made a stink. The locals appear to be mostly in favor of the Wal-Mart. While we may not agree with that ultimately the board is subject to the will of the people they represent.

MMurphy
08-25-2009, 04:53 PM
<q> "This is our county. We pay the taxes. We need the jobs," said Christine Jones of Unionville. "We need the shopping. Walmart gives good jobs with good benefits. It's a good place to shop and can only add to the tourist business in the county."
</q>

Could someone please tell me how Wal-Mart adds to the tourist business? How many tours does wal-mart conduct of it's stores and what's the number? I mean, I have yet to see a "Wal-Mart Tour Package!"...


Am I missing something here?

:confused:

Swag
08-25-2009, 06:20 PM
I love it, "Wal-Mart gives good jobs..." Has anyone ever tried to apply to wal-mart, has anyone seen the way that they treat their employees?! Christine Jones is a simply put stupid...I'd like to use some other choice words, but I wont for the sake of this forum. The only way there are jobs in Wal-Mart is if your an illegal alien...