Great Coat Documentation

[John "Red" Turner]

Gents,
Can anyone point me (if it exists) in the direction of source documentation as to the use of Federal great costs by CS troops?

Much appreciated.

John "Red" Turner

[VaTrooper]

I can't quote the source but there's a well known quote floating around by Forrest that all federal great coats pressed into CS service be dyed black. You might be able to serch for it here or on the AC.

[DamYankee25]

During the last months of the Petersburg campaign there were several Confederate Cav that went in to the Union lines like a toggle bolt. Went in, then spread out and came in behind federal infantry without firing a shot and took all their great coats. I don't have the primary source in front me though to quote it directly.

[VaTrooper]

Brandon's post reminded me of another. In the book I have on Company D of the 4th Virginia Cavalry there's a part in there about a group of riders passing some federals and having to gallop away because a tree branch caught one of their greatcoats, federal, pulling it back enough to reveal his true uniform underneath. Sorry it's pretty vague my books are boxed up for a move.

[lincolnsguard]

Confederate troops "procured" quite a few Federal greatcoats from the Union at Fredericksburg in 1862. I'd imagine it's because they were cold.

[Lee Ragan]

It is documented (I believe in Peticolas' diary), that federal greatcots were common amoung the Rebs in Sibleys Brigade that fought at Glorietta Pass.
I had read other accounts of federal overcoats being used by Confederate troops in the Western Theater, but cannot quote sources right now. One passage I remember that it was said that the Federal Army supplied greatcoats for both sides! That may have just been the authors opinion or a tounge-in-cheek statement.
Then as now, when a man is cold enough, he will use whatever it takes to stay warm.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Forrest's December 1864 general order (L.M. Nutt Papers, Univ. of NC) read:

"All men & officers belonging to this command who have blue yankee overcoats & clothing and who do not have them dyed by the 20th Inst The Coasts Especially will be taken from them.... Division Commanders will order an inspection on the date above specified and see that this order is complied with. And in an instance where the Inspectors find the coats have not been dyed, they will be taken from the owners and turned over to the Qr M of the Division."

This one is interesting to me as to what they did with the cut-off material:

From DIARY OF A TAR HEEL CONFEDERATE SOLDIER by Louis Leon, page 69:

"1865 - February - The smallpox is frightful. There is not a day that at least twenty men are taken out dead. Cold is no name for the weather now. They have given most of us Yankee overcoats, but have cut the skirts off. The reason of this is that the skirts are long and if they left them on we might pass out as Yankee soldiers."

Anyone up to cutting off their greatcoat skirts? ;) :)

CHS

[tompritchett]

One passage I remember that it was said that the Federal Army supplied greatcoats for both sides! That may have just been the authors opinion or a tounge-in-cheek statement.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't it get so bad with AoT Confederates wearing captured Union coats and equipment that Rosecrans fired off a letter to Bragg in complaint. Also, I believe that Bragg's answer was actuallu quite funny but I can not remember enough about it to try to repeat it. I sure that someone here knows the exchange I am taking about and can supply us with the details.

[unclefrank]

On page 98 in the Time Life Series "The struggle for Tennessee" there is an amusing sketch of a Confederate soldier robbing a Union prisoner of his overcoat. The victim is from the 73rd Illinois.

[Poor Private]

Also Gen'l. Morgan had his troops take the great coats from prisoners, and then had them died black . I can't quote from which book it is in due to the wife making
me clean up my end table for the Holidays. If I remember correctly (paraphrasing) He told his troop that they were going to get horses and coats that day. And when they took some fed cav prisoner he pointed to the prisoners and said "there are your horses and coats".

[zouavecampaigner]

Hallo!

Forrest's December 1864 general order (L.M. Nutt Papers, Univ. of NC) read:

"All men & officers belonging to this command who have blue yankee overcoats & clothing and who do not have them dyed by the 20th Inst The Coasts Especially will be taken from them.... Division Commanders will order an inspection on the date above specified and see that this order is complied with. And in an instance where the Inspectors find the coats have not been dyed, they will be taken from the owners and turned over to the Qr M of the Division."

This one is interesting to me as to what they did with the cut-off material:

From DIARY OF A TAR HEEL CONFEDERATE SOLDIER by Louis Leon, page 69:

"1865 - February - The smallpox is frightful. There is not a day that at least twenty men are taken out dead. Cold is no name for the weather now. They have given most of us Yankee overcoats, but have cut the skirts off. The reason of this is that the skirts are long and if they left them on we might pass out as Yankee soldiers."

Anyone up to cutting off their greatcoat skirts? ;) :)

CHS


Curt,

about 5 years ago, I cut the cape and skirt off of my Federal greatcoat, after reading in the diary of a Sgt. in the 114th PA Zouaves that many of the men in the 114th did the same, and wore theirs on the Gettysburg Campaign! (at night, of course). I saved the cape to wear in a light rain, and used the skirt to cover a filter canteen. The LOOKS I get when I wear the overcoat are PRICELESS!!

Regards, and Merry Christmas,

Shaun

[Mint Julep]

Hallo!

Forrest's December 1864 general order (L.M. Nutt Papers, Univ. of NC) read:

"All men & officers belonging to this command who have blue yankee overcoats & clothing and who do not have them dyed by the 20th Inst The Coasts Especially will be taken from them.... Division Commanders will order an inspection on the date above specified and see that this order is complied with. And in an instance where the Inspectors find the coats have not been dyed, they will be taken from the owners and turned over to the Qr M of the Division."

This one is interesting to me as to what they did with the cut-off material:

From DIARY OF A TAR HEEL CONFEDERATE SOLDIER by Louis Leon, page 69:

"1865 - February - The smallpox is frightful. There is not a day that at least twenty men are taken out dead. Cold is no name for the weather now. They have given most of us Yankee overcoats, but have cut the skirts off. The reason of this is that the skirts are long and if they left them on we might pass out as Yankee soldiers."

Anyone up to cutting off their greatcoat skirts? ;) :)

CHS

Bragg issued the order to his commanders to have the greatcoats dyed.

I recall an account from the Battle of Stones River from Cleburnes men encountering a line of blue lying in a field. They fired multiple volleys into without any return fire. They advanced to find several hundred greatcoats lying in line of battle, shot to beyond use. Apparently a Federal regiment decided it was prudent to remove the coats prior to going into battle. The CS soldiers were quite upset about the loss of good coats in the middle of winter.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Another incident:

"General Orders, HDQRS. CAVALRY in MISSISSIPPI,
No 17. Grenada, November 26, 1863.


1. The wearing of Federal uniforms having become so common in this command, and as it sometimes causes fatal mistakes, it is ordered that every article of that description be at once dyed, and if not within five days after the promulgation of this order in each command of the Cavalry in Mississippi, they will be confiscated and turned over to the quartermaster's department, to be dyed and issued to those most in need of clothing.
By command of Maj. Gen. S. D. Lee:

G.W. Holt,
Major and Assistant Adjutant-General."

CHS

[Guy Gane III]

I heartily advise picking up "Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown" 'Notes on Confederate Uniforms' by Thomas M Arliskas. Chapter 2, Part 4 (pages 63-66covers this question extensively.

As most of us know, the supplying of the CS army was shakey at best. Too many men and too few ways to procure all the necessary equipment. In a pinch, why not turn to the most well-supplied army in the field... the US army!
(My comments are in parenthesis...)

(Page 63):
"Rosecrans suggested in a letter dated December 10, 1862 (to Gen. Bragg), "that to prevent [any further] mistakes otherwise avoidable, it is highly desirable that your troops should at once be required to wear some badge to distinguish themselves from citizens."

Bragg's response was the ultimate contemporary Civil War comeback. It read: "As to your suggestion that our troops should be more particularly distinguished from citizens by a well defined uniform, I will merely state that we aim to clothe them as uniformly as the exigencies of our situation will permit. Whenever you afford us the facilities to obtain the requisite material, we shall be most happy to make the desired change. In the meantime, we shall use the best to be procured!"

(What musketballs!!! hahahaha :cool: )

(Page 63):
...Scarcity of clothing that winter led to a black market trade among the CS camps in Tullahoma for US goods and uniform items. A private in the 33rd Alabama remembered: There was a class of men with us who would rob the dead and did so at Murfreesboro... (cont. on page 64) ..."and [there were] those who had not picked up a US blanket, good black hat, BLUE OVERCOAT, or a shelter tent could usually buy such cheap if needed of men who had more than one."

(Page 64):
Another Confederate soldier, one year later in December 1863, said that, "Federal overcoats were selling for $200 to $300," among the men of the 15th Arkansas Infantry of Cleburne's Division."


(To wear these, also came retribution from Federal officers and soldiers... they would be treated as spies, if caught. The following order was essentially aimed at the CS guerilla forces who would actually use the captured stuff to intentionally mislead US troops.)

Out of the Adjutant Generals' office in Washington came General Order No. 100, the following April, stating under Section 63: "Troops who fight in the uniforms of their enemies, without any plain striking or uniform mark of distinction of their own, can expect no quarter."

(Page 65/66):
...Historical references exist in Confederate letters and diaries to Federal clothing being altered. Union OVERCOATS and pants which were a light blue colored wool were easily re-dyed, and sometimes the buttons were removed and CS issue buttons were substituted. A common method for dying in the field was to soak the clothing in an oozing vat of water stained with walnut hulls, butternut bark, coffee, or rusty iron. A shade of brown from mustard to cinnamon would be the result.


There you go... hope that helps and for gosh sake, please pick up the above book. It's roughly less than $20 and distributed by Thomas Publications, Gettysburg, PA.

Happy holidays!!!

[Guy Gane III]

Also covered in the book is a mention of the black-dyed overcoats and more...

(Page 66):
A cavalryman of the 2nd Kentucky, Morgan's Command, remembered capturing some BLUE OVERCOATS at Hartsville, Tennessee, and that they, "were dyed black and worn by our men afterward." One Confederate captured at Missionary Ridge spoke of, "good rations" but "everything resembling Yankee uniforms was taken from us." He felt this type of behavior on the part of the captors, "a little harsh"....

[tompritchett]

(Page 63):
"Rosecrans suggested in a letter dated December 10, 1862 (to Gen. Bragg), "that to prevent [any further] mistakes otherwise avoidable, it is highly desirable that your troops should at once be required to wear some badge to distinguish themselves from citizens."

Bragg's response was the ultimate contemporary Civil War comeback. It read: "As to your suggestion that our troops should be more particularly distinguished from citizens by a well defined uniform, I will merely state that we aim to clothe them as uniformly as the exigencies of our situation will permit. Whenever you afford us the facilities to obtain the requisite material, we shall be most happy to make the desired change. In the meantime, we shall use the best to be procured!"

Ah, that is where I remembered that exchange from.

[Poor Private]

I have a "new" union great coat in sky blue. Bought it last winter to replace one that for some strange reason shrunk. Since the likeyhood of me goin blue again is not very high. I wonder a couple of things. what do I use to dye it, and what will it look like? Any modern oexamples of someone trying it out there?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Depends...

There are a number of variables involved such has what the coat is made of (what % of nylon in the blend or pure wool), or what type of thread was used in the construction such as cotton or linen versus polyester.

Or do you wish to dye as the Confederates did using Period vegetable dyestuffs versus Modern aniline dyestuffs such as Rit (Rit Berries")?

Or do you, or can you, risk shrinkage, uneven shrinkage, or puckering due to the heat required to over-dye?

Or do you, or can you, risk mottled dyeing such as extensive blotching caused by uneven dye absorbtion? Or if the coat was not made from the same bolt of material it may have different pattern pieces take the dye different and come out lighter or darker than the piece next to it?

CHS

[Poor Private]

Wow Mr. gloom and doom there Curt.(chuckles)
Me and the wife have been discussing that very thing , thats why I decided to post and ask. Sometimes you get different ideas from a group instead of your own. It's just that using a sky blue great coat for a reb(south) impression is getting a bit over done. "I got this coat when we raided XXXXX warehouse." Rit dye is a no-no per the wife, Rit is a tweener dye. - it's supposed to catch both synthetic and natural fabric. Dharma Trading is the place she reccomends buying.
My wife says it's not the hot water that shrinks the wool it's the agitation. (she just chewed me out for forgetting that) She does wool and felt processing by hand, and machine. The more you agitate wool the tighter it gets. The wife runs the farm business raising sheep and goats for wool.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Not so much Gloom and Doom, just that I like to provide as in depth an answer as I can to allow the Asker to be able to make the best possible informed decision.

I would differ a wee bit with your wife...

Wool shrinks by heat, friction, or agitation. What happens is that the fibers become scaly when heated, or rubbed, or agitated. One can dry heat wool and be moreorless okay (a method for killing clothes moths and carpet beetles). One can rub wool with say soap and cold water and be moreorless okay. One can agitate wool and be moreorless okay. Just not more than one. :)

As the fibers become more and more scaly they catch and lock, causing shrinkage and in increase in density. This was called "fulling." I have 18th century blankets that were triple fulled and quadruple fulled for winter survival.
One old home technique for fulling was to repeatedly walk on a soapy blanket.

Many people believe that one has to heat a wool to shrink (full) it. But even agitation in cold water will shrink it.

Or as some lads find out with the fitted 100% wool uniform jackets, a cold rain and just wearing a jacket in normal daily movement can shrink them.
(Although some lads claim they just put their uniforms away for the Winter, and when they get them out come Spring they have somehow mysteriously shrunk. :) )

If one puts their wool uniform item into a hot bath needed for effective dyeing, and even if you DO NOT agitate it at all- it will shrink.
Don't trust me. try it. :)

:)

CHS
18th century dye dabbler

[Mint Julep]

I have a "new" union great coat in sky blue. Bought it last winter to replace one that for some strange reason shrunk. Since the likeyhood of me goin blue again is not very high. I wonder a couple of things. what do I use to dye it, and what will it look like? Any modern oexamples of someone trying it out there?

You know, you could sell both of these US coats and probably have enough money to buy a nice civilian greatcoat.

[Poor Private]

I would but the old one fit my son, and he paid for 1/2 of the new one in exchange.

[Artyman]

A few greatcoat ramblings....

I suppose having a mixed bag of results from a dye job would be pretty much like it was then. Probably no two coats came out the same.

So what of Confederate issue greatcoats? Did they dye these black to match the captured union coats.:confused:

I think a black greatcoat would be as cool looking as you can get!;)

I understand there were a few Union issue gray colored greatcoats. Would they have dyed these black too?

My greatcoat is gray wool jean. I like it fine just like it is.

Then there are those who suggest we should throw them into the ditch and not carry them at all (along with the shelter halves, fry pans, extra blankets, gum blankets, etc.) in order to properly sleep under the stars all warm and fuzzy with immersion. :roll:

On a 50 mile forced march in the heat of summer I suppose I'd have dumped mine too.

So what would be the best thing to use as period correct black dye?

If they gathered up greatcoats in the summer and re issued them in the fall, did they seperate the black ones from the gray ones?

$300 for a greatcoat. Gosh, in todays money that would be, what, about $2500! I'd have made do with a blanket.:-(

Harry

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"So what would be the best thing to use as period correct black dye?"

A common Period dyestuff for black was logwood mordanted with iron. (Unmordanted logwood dyes brown.)

It is still available today either from trapping houses or from 18th century suppliers. It now comes in its more Period form of powdered logwood bark. Or, what I like to call "freeze dried' concentrated crystals.

A non Period dye, but very popular today is... RIT aniline dye availalbe in many grocery and drug stores.

CHS

[Poor Private]

Or you can go to Dharma Trading Co. and look at their selection of dyes. they carry fabric dedicated dyes.